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Heart of Deimos: Update 29.1.0


[DE]Megan

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I really think this was vast overkill for marked for death.
I will be the first to say, I think it was way overtuned and i'm fine with the bug fixes, but the fact that it apparently can't even kill the original target that was "marked for death" in the first place strikes me as... confusing. At the very least... don't hard cap it by the target's health... there is very little content in the game that can't be killed in 1 hit, so this change actively slows players down instead of makes things more interesting.
I realize that the way players were using it wasn't "accurate for the way the skill was intended to be used" but at some point, you have to accept what the players discovered and let them build off of it, instead of simply taking it back and going "no, naughty, you weren't supposed to do that"

Also, I don't think I'm alone when I ask that bile resources be balanced/fixed... they are unbearable compared to everything else.

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GG DE. Can no longer even start the game at all. Gonna try a total uninstall then reinstall to see if that fixes it. If not then I'll just delete Warframe. Regardless its been fun (for the most part) so far. All the bugs, nerfs, and systems that punish your playerbase not withstanding...

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REVERT THAT "TARGET'S CURRENT HP" CAP. People are starting to abandon yet another content isle.

Just like Steel Path and Liches.

You guys sure love shooting yourself in the foot with this "balancing" (using the word very loosely here).
The main problem is - you make a fun idea, and then some certain group of your people turn it into a chore. Please, deliver one darn message to those specific people:
There are different, more efficient and fun ways of stretching gameplay and gulling us into spending our money, which would not cost company a dollar more than the current overcomplicated solutions.
Like in the old times. Remember how Raids were creative? People are going for Orbs more, than they go for Eidolons. Not just because of the Scarlet Spear, but because the Night Time limit is ridiculous. The stress it puts,  makes most people who hunt those into toxic lads with anger management problems.
Liches? - the whole Requem Whisper deal is a CHORE. Make a proper numerical counter for it, and make it affected by Smeeta Synthesis buff.
The Railjack? - Where is the REAL Squad Link? I actually get this one, it's too expensive and hard to make right now. But at least try to not use that broken thing you used in Scarlet Spear, okay?
Steel Path? - where is our promised expansion on rewards? The promised split of male/female Dax Armors into two different sets? Some more Dax-related stuff, like Dual Nikanas?
The Necramechs - Those will be abandoned soon, unless you remove useless Necra Melee mods and just give us the ability to equip Arch-melee on them. Not to mention, their purpose, like actual Deimos Bosses - THE WORMS. We need those.
And then, the Helminth - The Nerfs are already getting out of hand. Some buffs and fixes are due.
 

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20 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Marked for Death Changes:

Before we jump into the nitty gritty, let’s revisit what the ‘Marked for Death’ Helminth Infusion is: Stun an enemy; a portion of the next damage you deal to it will be dealt to all enemies around it.

It’s important to note that the description mentions ‘a portion of the next damage’, which was always our intent, meaning we have some bugs to fix and explanations to make on the next steps here.

Look I don't like "fixes" either but at the end of the day that probably all that needed to happen because I like playing warframe and finding this fun interactions and going that's cool! Pretty sure you also like that aspect of warframe too its one of the best parts by far~

  • Fixed Mods applying twice to the Marked for Death Damage portion dealt in the AOE.

  • Fixed base Damage using the Health/Shield Damage dealt and not capped at the Health+Shield the target had prior (e.g. enemy with 5 Health gets hit by 100 damage, and 100 damage is shared in AOE. It should just be the 5).

These changes, as much as I dont understand you all nerfing the cool parts I get it. Fine, not expected or salty at all... 🙂

(You know the whole dam point of the helminth system shock and surprise I know but fine it was actually busted and not working right)

 

Now the what the hell is going on atm talk...?

I get fixing mark for death not working as intended but then you nerf a bunch of interactions around it AND nerfed the damage of it and the aoe it makes? Was your intent to make one of the coolest parts of the helminth system just trash? Did you wanna waste everyone who has played with the helminth time resources and such? 

  • Removed Critical Chance from Marked for Death radial AOE. (Whut why)? was your intent for us to deal less damage? Most likely but you already fixed it above?

  • Capped Damage multiplier stat to 75% and normalized Damage type mults. (Oh god what? Do you not want people to use this? I mean probs not because that would be fun but that dead horse aside.) damage capping was not the solotion here. You will never use this even when you are supposed to, because using the melee weapon by itself would deal MORE DAMAGE BY ITS SELF. WHY WOULD I SPEND ENERGY TO DO LESS DAMAGE)

    • Here’s an example of normalized Damage type: if the Damage you deal is 0.5 Impact, 0.4 Slash, 0.3 Heat that sums to 1.2x but after normalizing they become 0.42 Impact, 0.33 Slash, 0.25 Heat. (This change caps the amount of damage you can EVER do from what I understand. Making me wonder why anyone would us this in a regular mission or you know ever ...)

  • Fixed Marked for Death with Arcane Trickery equipped triggering invisibility almost every time, because each enemy hit by the AoE has its own 15% chance to activate Arcane Trickery. Isn't this working as intended?

"Arcane Trickery is an Arcane Enhancement that provides a chance to grant the Warframe invisibility for a short time upon performing a standing melee finisher kill.

Unlock Ability: Marked for Death
Stun an enemy; a portion of the next damage you deal to it will be dealt to all enemies around it. 
(So if I deal finisher damage is that not supposed to go through even if its capped to maximum 75 percent of the targets hp? I dont think this change was though out. Looks like need jerk reaction to a OH Noooooo They are killing stuff like that, thats not ok looks at equinox mesa gara and other sources of this that dont get the nerf bat) Yup seems good.

 

I love the people who make this game but I gotta say it, when you make changes that are just nerfs and nothing more thats not ok but it does happen it sucks but it does need to happen time to time. This is not that, this is waiting WEEKS (August 25, 2020) for a random hotfix to announce this is not working as intended when we all know people having been playing with this and investing into it... I normally would not care because I knew for a fact that they activly look for the cool stuff and give it a pass or not depending on how they are feeling that day.

This was literally with marked for death was already a interaction in the game that already existed DE. Garuda's entire kit is basically this ?

Was it really necessary to nerf this ability especially after all the fixes? No. No it was not. 

All I can do is keep giving the feed back I can. Thank you for reading.

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14 минут назад, ShogunGunshow сказал:

Capping Marked for Death's damage at enemy health is a ridiculous change.

Yes, I'm sure the radial damage was never meant to exceed enemy HP.

Just like you never intended Khora to be able to heal defense objectives, right?

🙄

Speaking of Khora, she does way more damage with her 1. And clears way more enemies.

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I think the biggest issue with the whole Marked for Death thing.
Is that DE is going "crap, this isn't working the way we designed it, so we need to fix it"
while the players are going "we found this really cool interaction and want to keep it"

I fully understand the pain of something not working as intended, but I think sometimes it's more valuable to embrace what the players have discovered and balance around that instead. This doesn't feel so much like a "fix" as punishment for discovering something that only a small handful of frames can take advantage of, and carves out an interesting niche for players to build around. 

I 100% agree that the skill needed bug fixes, tweaks and probably some nerfs, but I don't think it's a good idea to try and put the genie back in the bottle, unless you're going to create another skill with functionality more similar to the pre-changed variant. (maybe instead of marking an enemy, your next bullet/attack is aoe?) Because players found something really cool.. and then you said "no, that's wrong"

A secondary issue, is that now this 'working as intended" version of marked for death, is all but useless, as capping your damage at the enemy health is straight up lowering your overall damage... there is very, very little content in this game that can't be 1shot until you get over level 100, so why would any player go out of their way to infuse, and then cast, an ability that lowers their overall damage? because most of the time, you'll just target 1 enemy, hit him for a million damage... and all of his friends are left at 25% hp, why would you bother taking that time, when you can just shoot everyone instead? you'll have to do it anyway. And those "tanky units" the skill is meant to be used on simply are not prevalent enough to be worth swapping out a skill for over... pretty much any other option. As well, those "tanky units" are the one thing players are least likely to be able to one shot. I do think it would potentially be much better if marked for death gave a damage multiplier against the marked target, so when you get to that time with level 140+ enemies, then the skill will actually help you kill them, instead of doing... nothing really

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Seriously, though... Why put an ability in the game and then proceed to nerf it for doing what it says on the label? If this isn't meant for frames like Ash, what *is* it for? Where, exactly, does this fit into... Any part of the meta, period? Did you even think about why people were using this the way they were? Did it even briefly occur to you that there's just... Better ways of doing AoE damage for most frames?

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9 hours ago, metvincent said:

No need to write a bunch of gibberish about M4D, we all knew it was gonna get completely gutted. But I'm finding the "The desired strategy we wanted was players prioritizing tank units like Heavy Gunners to do AOE clears" part really hard to take seriously tbh. You have statistical data on weapon usage guys. How many people use Acid Shells, Vulcan Blitz or Thermagnetic Shells which have forever worked kinda the same way?

 

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Onto Xaku now. One of the reasons why we shouldn't be taking 6 forma builds into account when balancing their kit. I've seen some since Xaku's release, they're so tight for mod capacity that we're stuck with certain mods just to be able to slot the others in or to reach certain thresholds (200% str for Gaze, decent range and duration for their other skills).

Xaku's kit doesn't allow for versatility with their current base stats. Again, just taking Gaze into account here for example you want 200% str. That means two to three mod slots occupied by strength mods alone (some used power drift, I went for R8 transient fortitude and Umbral intensify). Ok, now you want Grasp to be worth something so you're now stuck with Stretch+Augur Reach unless you go for Overextended and mess up the threshold for Gaze. Natural Talent feeling pretty much mandatory and so on.

With most builds I've seen so far, including my 6 different loadouts, there's no reliable way to make them versatile and have utility mods in unless you compromise the whole purpose of their kit.

Also while efficiency is usually the first stat you'd think on ditching because Arcane Energize, exodia brave and some other means we have to restore energy quickly that doesn't mean Xaku should be balanced around that. Not everyone has those, even less so the playerbase you want to log into the game the most based on DE's statistics.

Garuda used to need 200% STR too to get that 100% bleed chance sweet spot. Now takes about a third of that power strength to reach that threshold. She can work with less than 100% bleed chance too (compared to armor, where a 99% decrease still makes Grasp of Lohk do barely anything to enemies in regular SP content) She also got her casting times decreased. Hopefully it won't take over a year to make Xaku truly viable while trying to have build versatility (Garuda was released Nov 8th 2018 and the changes I'm referring to were introduced Nov 22nd 2019 ).

Besides that I agree with what most people have stated in here so far. Void dmg is not worth using (stat proc works effectively like a self debuff; makes it easy to figure out which skill to swap out with helminth, right?). Evasion is not a good survivability stat to rely on while playing (It also works against mods like Adaptation for example), even less so vs AOE or lingering dmg sources (like the ones that infested Moas use, toxin clouds from infested ospreys and Scorch fire patches). Grasp and Gaze need both higher range, duration and target aquisition range for Grasp specifically. Lastly I haven't read through all 13 pages we have on this thread so far, but I'm fairly certain some people might've addressed Grasp of Lohk aiming enemies caught by Gaze too.

I really wanted to like this warframe. Bought Xaku's collection on release. Threw about four forma in iirc before I realized In practice their kit feels quite underwhelming no matter what you do. Also please DE, make Attachments/Syandanas being shown while using Vast Untime a toggle. What's the point in slapping all the cosmetics we worked so hard and/or exclusively paid to own if we can't see them while using what seems to be one of the focuses from this workshop? If Vast Untime ends up working like you're suggesting, then it's safe to say we're gonna want to use it quite often. Not a fan of running around as a naked skeleton with only color changes to differenciate Xaku players on the same team.

PS: Yeah, I copy pasted the whole msg I wrote at Xaku's dev workshop. Glad to see a couple changes but Xaku's main issues still stand, like Grasp focusing Gaze targets and its firing range remaining unchanged. And yeah, I'm quite salty here. I'm starting to empathize a lot with all the people who have been asking for deserved fixes for over two years now.


PS2: Revise Exodia Contagion.

PS3: Did you just gave us a primary rifle UNIVERSAL SKIN?!

 

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Took the words right out of my mouth brother, its really a shame they basically gutted the only good thing that the helminth gave as a unique skill. And was one of the only reasons i was doing that stupid thing in the first place. And yup, Xaku is still in the trash with his kit. It's a shame really, he has such a unique concept and sadly his kit is just... underwhelming and not really fun to use. He's in the same tier as Chroma (current chroma), Hydroid and a bunch of other frames (feels like half the roster) who just sit there with no real purpose and kits that need overhauls. Alot of frames needs what Vauban got imo and I think i'll keep some hope DE does realize how different the game is than it was when it released.

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I'm not sure if DE have really given their scenario for MfD their full consideration.

Any "tank" type in the level of content that requires that kind of thought and setup is going to be your least preferred target for a single, large sniper shot because of their inflated armor values. You'd need to strip the tank's armor first for it to be worth it, which is just wasting even more time. 

DE, if you want your fantasy scenario? Give the player 100% armor piercing against their Marked for Death target. 

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11 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

-snip-

 

Brozime, the guy who OVERHYPED THAT POOR THING IN HIS PREVIOUS VIDEO?

Thanks for mentioning one of the reasons DE got scared about this whole skill. And the reason why Roar/Warcry got nerfed. Very thoughtfull of you.

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7 hours ago, [DE]Glen said:

If your internet is unreliable you can disable bulk download in the launcher settings. The default is faster but doesn't handle bad connections as well.

 

I did that and it downloaded a small update then made the game crash on startup 
this was after initially waited through 4 attempts of the 6000mb update and each time it failed saying the download data was corrupt

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1 minute ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm not sure if DE have really given their scenario for MfD their full consideration.

Any "tank" type in the level of content that requires that kind of thought and setup is going to be your least preferred target for a single, large sniper shot because of their inflated armor values. You'd need to strip the tank's armor first for it to be worth it, which is just wasting even more time. 

DE, if you want your fantasy scenario? Give the player 100% armor piercing against their Marked for Death target. 

The only place where I could really see their fantasy for this ability working out in reality is in the hands of certain frames with vacuum abilities, like Mag and Vauban. The problem is, they already do what they do just fine without this, so in the end it's just adding more steps, grind and trading an ability for little to no tangible effect.

The helminth system really is just turning out to be a resource trap.

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3 minutes ago, KVenom said:

Ah, the guy who OVERHYPED THAT POOR THING IN HIS PREVIOUS VIDEO?
 

Thanks for mentioning one of the reasons DE got scared about this whole skill. And the reason why Roar/Warcry got nerfed. Very thoughtfull of you.

Brozime is just ahead of the curve. He does overhype things, yes, but... With DE's current mindset, this was going to happen either way. Just by virtue of not being complete garbage, this ability would have seen disproportionate usage in their statistics, if not soon, at least eventually. Not because it was particularly special, but because the vast majority of abilities on offer range from garbage to exceptionally mediocre, and anything people are even considering using, they nerf.

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Только что, XaoGarrent сказал:

He does overhype things, yes, but... With DE's current mindset, this was going to happen either way.

Not necessarily. Lemme introduce you to how this works:
1. Some huge and popular Youtuber(Brozime in this case) makes an Overhyped Vid about this whole shtick
2. More other, lesser youtubers go all copycat and make their vids about it, overhyping the hell out of it.
3. Word gets to DE, among with the vids. And, basing on how many views those vids get, the DE makes a decision on prioritising the forementioned issue.

The issue in question can be any bug or feature. In this case - Helminth system in general and MfD.

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13 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm not sure if DE have really given their scenario for MfD their full consideration.

Any "tank" type in the level of content that requires that kind of thought and setup is going to be your least preferred target for a single, large sniper shot because of their inflated armor values. You'd need to strip the tank's armor first for it to be worth it, which is just wasting even more time. 

DE, if you want your fantasy scenario? Give the player 100% armor piercing against their Marked for Death target. 

I actually think this is a cool idea. If the marked target is 'helpless' aka, lowered defences, that would give a better use for the skill and make it more viable... well how about maybe still have a reason to exist

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6 minutes ago, KVenom said:

Not necessarily. Lemme introduce you to how this works:
1. Some huge and popular Youtuber(Brozime in this case) makes an Overhyped Vid about this whole shtick
2. More other, lesser youtubers go all copycat and make their vids about it, overhyping the hell out of it.
3. Word gets to DE, among with the vids. And, basing on how many views those vids get, the DE makes a decision on prioritising the forementioned issue.

The issue in question can be any bug or feature. In this case - Helminth system in general and MfD.

You've said nothing to contradict what I've said.

I feel like you're new to Warframe. I don't know if you are, but there's things you clearly don't know that any long time vet does. Namely how DE nerfs anything with high statistical usage, regardless of how much it gets talked about. The hype just determines the speed, it happens either way. EDIT: It even happens regardless of the real world objective power of whatever they're nerfing.

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1 минуту назад, mishli сказал:

I actually think this is a cool idea. If the marked target is 'helpless' aka, lowered defences, that would give a better use for the skill and make it more viable... well how about maybe still have a reason to exist

With the whole 75% of TARGET'S CURRENT HP cap it's still useless.
The damage you will be doing to those around the already wounded target will be still miniscule.

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6 hours ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Yet Ash could utterly trivialize Disruption with MFD. Mark a mook, fatal teleport, everything die including the disruption target.

And Saryn/Mesa were lightyears behind that build. Lightyears. It was completely and utterly broken. Even Khora requires you to build your whipclaws and combo for her 1.

 

Seriously, the simple fact that Tesla Bank was the same ability, but weaker and requiring an augment should have rang alarm bells in your heads. MFD was too strong.

No, Mesa setup is way easier: 

  • Set mouse DPI to 10K or something ridiculous
  • Press 4 
  • Randomly moves mouse

No enemy can even come close the defense objective. In addition, once this is setup, you can AFK for the entire defense duration (as long as u move a bit with mesa waltz such that you don't get kicked for inactivity). 

With Ash, you actually HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME. 

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1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

You've said nothing to contradict what I've said.

I feel like you're new to Warframe. I don't know if you are, but there's things you clearly don't know that any long time vet does. Namely how DE nerfs anything with high statistical usage, regardless of how much it gets talked about. The hype just determines the speed, it happens either way.

[insert Thanos quote here]

it's painful how accurate that is.

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3 minutes ago, KVenom said:

3. Word gets to DE, among with the vids. And, basing on how many views those vids get, the DE makes a decision on prioritising the forementioned issue.

ok but why nerf into oblivion tho? i mean, the overhype should be good for them, i just came back to the game cause i wanted to try it out (sadly the nerf came before a could cause i was far behind in the game when i stopped playing)...
Warframe is a game that you play to kill loots of things to pass time and have fun with it no? so when something that promotes it is created, and make the game popular, why would DE change it so you can not have fun with it anymore? 

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