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For anyone interested in the results of changes to Marked for death instead of just going gaga [updated with videos].


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7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I read the Patch notes and i was kinda disappointed with the Marked for death changes.

But i make it a point to not make remarks unless i personally test them. (yeah i mostly used ash cause lets be honest on the ones who are the most affected by it)

The following is a Steel path run on Adaro. It is very clear that it is extremely unreliable,

half the time i didn't have enough energy to cast it (can be fixed with build changes) , the remaining time the targets were all with (relative) weak health and so resulted in very little damage (i could do much better with just my melee)

The following are various combination of attempts in the SIM:

so with some time in the sim the following is observed:

1) Core ability itself is still the same (mark enemy -> do damage -> damage spreads)

2) Ability is still limited my LOS (enemy hiding behind 2 inches of terrain? cant hit em)

3) Damage in now capped by 2 additional factors

  1. Marked enemy CURRENT health
  2. 75% of damage TO HEALTH (achievable by 150% power strength)

it doesn't matter if your finisher damage is capable of 2 billion damage , if the marked enemy has 100 health you can at most do 75 damage but it will still be finisher damage. Enemy has 100 health? do 75 damage to surrounding, enemy in surrounding left with 25 health? now you do 18.75 on next use , enemy left with 6.25 health? now you do 4.6875 and so on. it gives very bad diminishing returns. if you didn't kill everything in the first attack forget about using the ability again, its pointless.

4) It will act as an explosion with the exact same damage type as applied to enemy , including chance to proc status. Finisher (true) will directly hit enemies health , corrosive will do corrosive , viral will do viral, if enemies have varying damage resistances to different damage types it will result in different numbers being represented.

5) There is no chance to do critical damage in the explosion- but if your marked attack was critical and did 3K damage as a yellow crit or orange crit , all enemies will be damaged for 3K as a regular attack.

6) Multi shot does not work , only one of the pellets counts (shotguns and snipers with MS will be less effective)

7) Stealth multipliers do not work.

 

Conclusion:

Moderately disappointed with the changes,

Ability now needs targeting the highest health enemy to be even remotely useful and when it is it is still faster to just kill em with melee.

DE has done a poor job of balancing it and is clear they AGAIN did not really test the abilities before introducing them,

The damage cap based on health should be removed.

 

So while the ability is greatly reduced and you cant see big red numbers - if the damage capping based on max health is removed the ability is still salvageable and effective.

Without it you are better off using regular melee weapons to save time in most scenarios.

What are your views?

DE have a habbit of over nerfing something.

If something is way to powerful they stomp it into the ground so hard that no one remembers it. They did the same thing with the synoid simular and even synoid gammacor back in the day and with tones of other things. Personally I don't really care too much. I didn't really like the idea of Marked for Death anyways. It didn't fit my play style and I didn't find it very fun but I know alot of people are annoyed by this habbit that DE have.

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

The ability should have never launched in the state it was in, and the Helminth system will always be a mess considering the power difference between some Warframes.

Also, this playerbase is very spoiled when it comes to these sorts of things, that's why everyone is upset with the changes. DE did overkill the nerf, but it wasn't out of no where. Spreading finisher damage in an AoE is something that was removed from Exodia Contagion. Why should Marked for Death have it then? Come on, this is like Xoris 2. Everyone uses something inherently unbalanced that is quite obvious to notice it was broken, and then complains when DE nerfs it. Would you rather it have been in the game for years before being nerfed like some items?

Agreed. You could see the hammer coming from 20 miles away. it was going to get addressed as soon as it was shown hitting the damage cap and dealing it in a AoE.

Next on is probably Roar, Dispenser, Pillage and Breach Surge. Which I don't mind, Roar shouldn't even have made it into the Helminth. Personally, I'm still perplexed it made it through.

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I tried it out pre-nerf on my Inaros: Mark For Death, Sand-to-Face, Stabby-stabby... unimpressive results because of enemy position distribution, line of sight, etc... not worth my time... and they NERFED THAT? That didn't even make my radar for something to bother keeping around.

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I dont understand why DE released skill like this, obviously it wasn't tested properly. At least they should have hotfixed it super early to prevent hypetrain followers from wasting their bile.

Skill seems like a mess. Marked for death yet on death it doesn't do anything. Why not make it work like a debuff that spreads on enemy death?

You can still nuke with it. Just needs to be scaled with multiplicative damage and slash/viral procs.

The stupidest thing is that this skill isnt even in the top 3 when it comes to nukes that Helminth system brought.

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2 hours ago, Voltage said:

The ability should have never launched in the state it was in, and the Helminth system will always be a mess considering the power difference between some Warframes.

Wow, what a totally non important point to the discussion at hand that's coupled with such a defeatist attitude.  Yeesh.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Also, this playerbase is very spoiled when it comes to these sorts of things, that's why everyone is upset with the changes. DE did overkill the nerf, but it wasn't out of no where. Spreading finisher damage in an AoE is something that was removed from Exodia Contagion. Why should Marked for Death have it then? Come on, this is like Xoris 2. Everyone uses something inherently unbalanced that is quite obvious to notice it was broken, and then complains when DE nerfs it. Would you rather it have been in the game for years before being nerfed like some items?

I hardly count justifiable unrest after repeated examples of DE's comical mismanagement with perceived problems as "spoiled."  Contagion is also not the same.  It was not restricted as much as marked for death is.  You need a far more specific build to pull this off and even then a lot of it was out of player control.  If DE was really making this adjustment strictly because of finisher damage they could've just not let finisher damage count.  DE wanted this interaction.  They just foolishly believed it wouldn't be a decent option by slapping LoS requirements on.

Xoris was not imbalanced.  The nerf didn't stop what we've been doing with stat sticks for ages now.  Xoris itself wasn't even a good stat stick.  People valued the QoL of what it brought.  When they could easily be doing a LOT more damage wise with a good riven.  Speaking of by their own logic Riven's shouldn't effect frame abilities either.  but they do.  And DE has yet to raise a finger on it.  At best I can see them disliking Xoris pre nerf because it was nutty in cases like Khora.  But she's already bonkers without Xoris.  Heaven forbid we have exalted weapons actually be worth using over regular melee.

What was broken was the double dipping.  You can stretch that to maybe call it's interaction with Trickery to be a bit cheesy.  But it flat having the ability to kill groups of enemies in LoS is fine.  We have other abilities with less setup that cleared faster.  Regular melee is a faster clear.  Nerfing is fine.  The way they chose to do so is not.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I'm comparing the community reaction. Players use obviously broken mechanics and then "pikachu surprised face" when DE addresses it. Xoris is just the latest example that isn't Marked for Death. Players are so spoiled with powercreep I actually read justification for why the ability was fine even though it's an AoE of finisher damage.

Anyone who spends significant time playtesting the ability in a variety of environments could tell you that it wasn't a meta option due to how specific the build has to be and how much is out of the players hands due to having an LoS requirement.  It was a funny meme situation that could be useful in niche scenarios.  But it's power level wasn't higher or better than any current tools we already had.  We're not surprised by DE addressing the ability since it actually had some bug(s) with it.  What we're surprised about is DE's continued hammer approach to situations that require a scalpel.

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knew it would get nerfed, DE's method of balancing is to wait for people to invest resources, forma, plat etc on the latest thing and then nerf it once it becomes popular. I do like how their trying to pin this on the players though.

Sadly this game is getting worse, they ,made everything so powerful previously and are now trying desperately to add balance in a game that's what seven years old? and never considered balance previously. At the same time their still trying to make weapons/frames etc powerful enough so they seem appealing enough for people to buy, then nerf them down the line for the next new thing...

The game is in a bad place balance and direction wise, a number of my friends have already left the game sadly, it seems like its quite common occurrence these days.   

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The moment the SHEEP were talking about how CRAZY and AMAZING this NUKE THE WHOLE ROOM this ability was, I knew it was a matter of time.

Such gullible people. I cant even bring myself to pity the guy who wasted over 100k Kubba. Its just that sad.

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Ah, the natural reaction of DE: Making wild changes to something without any testing.

Didn't they specifically make a test group for this kind of stuff not long ago? What happened to that?

I still hold to my long-standing statement that DE needs to regularly consult the Design Council for input on all balance and rework changes. The players have far more experience with this game than they do. Even if the goal isn't only for the DC to come up solutions, but at a minimum to point out the obvious mechanical and design flaws the are always missed before implementation. 

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I`m just going to say this and I don`t care who don`t like it, I don`t care that mod got nerfed I never cared for the system to begin with, this ability just proves that Ash needs a revisit more than ever and it also shows that the reason ppl like it is because it worked similarly to the way old bs use to be.

Ngl that's almost as annoying as watching Gears walk into a thread and make it about Revenant even when it's nothing to do with him.  Also you do not speak for me.  I didn't like old BS.  Nor did I like this ability because you could pretend like it was similar to old BS when it's not.  LoS requirement throws that thin comparison out the window.  I liked MFD because it made trickery usable again and opened the door for extended discussions about making finishers as a mechanic a useful part of melee combat instead of just blendering everything with the easiest to perform melee AoE combo.

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Mod is similar to bs and i`ll just assume that the majority of ppl replaced bs with it, and when I talk to ppl in-game about Ash they just say “just put mod on” which doesn’t fix bs it just replaces it and brings it closer to the way old bs was also have you notices that ppl never talked about using the other two abilities?

Sorry to burst your bubble but in the short time this mod lived I'd only ever seen a few threads talk about Ash with MFD.  In the vast majority of situations I saw people used Excal.  Some even went with banshee.  It's not about Ash.  it's about finishers.  You're just making it about Ash.

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Again, this is why I don`t like the system, I just hope DE now will have the sense to take note of this and realise that Ash needs a revisit for not just his bs but for his other abilities and that ppl have woken up, taken the red pill and relies his issues.

If you've seen how DE has handled many other situations then you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.  Something we all should have learned by now.

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Ppl still haven`t learnt that the more you talk, the more likely DE will know about it, if ppl would just shut up about things in warframe it`s less likely DE will know anything.

As much as I like to rag on DE I like to give them some credit.  It wouldn't matter if content creators kept this quiet or not.  They have the ability to see the data of their game.  Catchmoon was to my knowledge hardly ever talked about as being absolutely busted.  I saw more talk about Tombfinger personally. Yet they nerfed it entirely because of their stats they have access to.  To say we have the capability to pull the wool over DE's eyes simply by being quiet is quite a misguided statement to say the least.

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You can disagree with me all day but ppl`s actions shows otherwise.

Unless you can magically pull some stats out of your Ash to prove your statements you're just another person screaming on the internet like the rest of us.

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I have put up a post names Ash: his current problems and the solutions to fix them, take a look if you`re interested.

Yes and i've not only given feedback on your suggestions but gave a list of my own.  More than two weeks ago.  And haven't gotten a reply.  I'm not going to exist as a bump for your topic thread if you can't bother to respond to people in it.  It would be one thing to direct people there for informational purposes.  But you're basically hoping people use it constantly to keep the discussion alive.  And if that's your goal then you can stand to be a bit more interactive instead of just giving updates on your actions.  It's a discussion thread, not an Instagram account.  I don't care what you're up to.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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Ive played with it myself too, I have it on several frames. It got completely ruined with deriving damage from CURRENT health of a target, already being capped at 75%. It becomes useless on already damaged mobs.

DE. if you are scared of the powercreeped damage we can produce relative to the new non-scaling health of mobs - here is a compromise idea: make it limited to the nominal max health the target has/had, not current remaining. That way you'd still have to pick 'elite' mobs for target, like you said was intended.

And reminder that its a niche ability, its not as effective as some other 'stock' frame abilities, it needs setup and has LOS limit, there is no sense in making it this bad. It's not ruining the game like some other unrestricted AOE spam does.  Is it so bad that finally Ash might see some play? and not just Mesas and Saryns and whatever new fad people discover like Khora deleting mobs on spawn just running a macro to spam whip at a wall for hours farming essence (rework of essence drops never). 

Edited by Monolake
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2 hours ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Agreed. You could see the hammer coming from 20 miles away. it was going to get addressed as soon as it was shown hitting the damage cap and dealing it in a AoE.

Next on is probably Roar, Dispenser, Pillage and Breach Surge. Which I don't mind, Roar shouldn't even have made it into the Helminth. Personally, I'm still perplexed it made it through.

Haven't even bothered to try to farm a second Hildryn, expecting a big nerf on that one. If just based on useage than no other reason -- one of their favorite metrics. 

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5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Haven't even bothered to try to farm a second Hildryn, expecting a big nerf on that one. If just based on useage than no other reason -- one of their favorite metrics. 

I almost have a Hildryn myself just missing a piece so I can test it out.

We shall see later today in the Devstream which is the most infused and the future of it. I'll be surprised if it's not one of the four I mentioned.

If the popularity has reached the line I expect them to switch Roar to Charge, Dispenser to Grenade Fan or disabling Energize procs from Dispenser Orbs. Some sort of nerf or outright changing Pillage to another ability and nerf to Breach Surge or switch to Will-O-Wisp.

Personally, I don't mind Pillage or Breach Surge. Roar and Dispenser are my main grippe with the Helminth though.

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9 hours ago, dEjAvU5566 said:

I have no comment, just a request.

Rebecca or anyone doing DE stream should do missions with nerfed M4D and show all players how this meet their “original intention”

You are just being toxic. Player base always being toxic with DE.

Some of DE members are on vacation. And you send them requests that they waste their time playing this grind oriented game? And after they play it what? Their favorite weapons will get nerfed again, and they have to grind other stuff again and again on every hype train. Before making such requests, you should remember that DE employs have lives.

Stop being toxic.  

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27 minutes ago, KlaussKlauss said:

You are just being toxic. Player base always being toxic with DE.

Some of DE members are on vacation. And you send them requests that they waste their time playing this grind oriented game? And after they play it what? Their favorite weapons will get nerfed again, and they have to grind other stuff again and again on every hype train. Before making such requests, you should remember that DE employs have lives.

Stop being toxic.  

Hahaha , not sure if sarcastic or honest opinion.

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43 minutes ago, KlaussKlauss said:

You are just being toxic. Player base always being toxic with DE.

Some of DE members are on vacation. And you send them requests that they waste their time playing this grind oriented game? And after they play it what? Their favorite weapons will get nerfed again, and they have to grind other stuff again and again on every hype train. Before making such requests, you should remember that DE employs have lives.

Stop being toxic.  

Are you really saying that asking de staff to play the game they create is a waste of their time ?

I agree that de staff have lives, and quite likely playing wf might not be a big part of their life outside work.  But it should be blooming big part of their life IN work.

Or maybe it's sarcasm in which case a little /s would have helped me as it's been a long week and context on here is easily lost.

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