No need to level Helminth anymore. Bye Marked For Death

[(XBOX)Kebiru25]

When the Helminth system came out Marked for Death was the only ability Warframe partners were talking about. When I saw it, it became the answer to Ash's failed Blade Storm update/nerf. Before that his 4th was a oh crap button to nuke the enemies around him. Now we have to wiggle our mouse/controller around to make his 4th usable. He was as good as Ember and Banshee. they were all nerfed for balance. but the truth is that they were pushed aside for new nukes to shine. 

I hoped that the Helminth System would be the great equalizer. A way to balance the Nukes Frames and the others. But the only good ability to come from it was Marked for Death, an ability that should have been Ash's BS. The Mark for Death nerf destroyed the chance of it being worth the grind. In stead of trying to rework the other useless Helminth abilities, you destoryed the only good one. 

Thanks DE

[Emolition]

I never knew about the power  I just ranked right past it and totally ignored it. Not until the patch came out I saw that apprently it was a good power as my view of it when reading the power was that 1 or 2 targets right next to the marked target would take damage so was totally unintresting for me. I just wanted to reach 10 so I never have to worry about the slots.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb ES-Flinter:

"Ash is dead now" threads coming in 3, 2, 1...

At least I can be happy that the chance for a revisit/ rework is again a bit higher than before.

 

[Loza03]

For one, power-levelling the Helminth is kind of pointless anyway. The only reason to do so is is slots, and to be honest, it's generous enough that it's probably not going to be a problem.

 

The other point is that you can't balance nuke frames by buffing other frames to be as powerful. Addition cannot resolve the situation that we are in. Nor will simple nerfs or enemy buffs. Reducing the power of nukers will bring back the CC meta. Reducing the power of CC will bring back the invisibility meta or introduce a Tank Meta. The issue at play is not that some powers are too weak, it's that the value of an ability is defined on a linear scale of 'is it stronger than the current best'? This is because the energy 'economy' is almost entirely defined by the arsenal, not the gameplay, which makes the primary limiting factor on ability use a non-issue. If there's no difference in opportunity cost between firing off a single-target attack and an AoE nuke, then the latter is always preferable. There's a reason why, despite both being considered the 'power weapons' of Halo: CE,  the Sniper gets a lot more ammo than the Rocket Launcher.

[KlaussKlauss]

Yea dude, we did it for you. We grinded it for the hype-nerf roller-coaster ride.

Now it's you turn to go on next hype-train: Trashcan Simulator (Necra-meh).

Spoiler: Nerf incoming!

[Solarsyphon]

9 minutes ago, KlaussKlauss said:

Spoiler: Nerf incoming!

Cursed.  M4D I understand but necromechs would just be cruel 

[BiancaRoughfin]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

When the Helminth system came out Marked for Death was the only ability Warframe partners were talking about.

Yeah, pretty much they showed how broken it was from the get go and made it clear that it would end up being nerfed.

46 minutes ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

When I saw it, it became the answer to Ash's failed Blade Storm update/nerf.

I laughed at this.

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

Before that his 4th was a oh crap button to nuke the enemies around him.

Yeah , and his teammates and defense objectives because Ash players kept using it in Radiation Sorties missions which were far more common at that time. The amount of times i witnessed missions failing because there was an Ash on the team that didnt do anything aside keep pressing 4 wile there was a console needing to be hacked, a downed teammate or rescue target needing to be ressed, even when at the Ash player's feet.

57 minutes ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

Now we have to wiggle our mouse/controller around to make his 4th usable.

Im not fond of the Wiggle thing either, i think [DE] could make his 4th ability work like Garuda's 4th when charging which expands a circle that quickly marks targets instead of having to move over them with the mouse, still the skill has to only affect enemies in sight.

59 minutes ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

He was as good as Ember and Banshee. they were all nerfed for balance. but the truth is that they were pushed aside for new nukes to shine.

Ember's problem was her World of Fire allowed players to easily AFK play most missions as they only needed to fill up energy and leave her standing in a corner with her 4th activated.

Banshee's problem was in her Augment, it increased both her 4th's Damage and Range over time which is completely broken. It was another ability that allowed players to just stand still killing everything, aside that there is the fact that her 4th also made enemies bounce like crazy which made it almost impossible for other players to try killing them wile her 4th was active.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

I hoped that the Helminth System would be the great equalizer. A way to balance the Nukes Frames and the others.

Heres the problem, Ash was never intended to be a Nuke frame, hes a Stealth Assassin.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

But the only good ability to come from it was Marked for Death

I dont see Marked for Death as the only good ability the Helminth has to offer, i can think of many combinations to make using the other skills it has, i also replaced my Nova's Wormhole with Infested Mobility because i built my Nova to be Tanky by focusing on a lot of duration wile reducing Range as much as i could so her 3th skill was pretty useless. Now she has an ability that grants her bonus movement speed for a long duration which is much better than what she had.

[Zzz-Somnus-zzZ]

Halfway done feeding old frames to helminth and it's already past its 10th metamorph.

[Solarsyphon]

5 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Im not fond of the Wiggle thing either, i think [DE] could make his 4th ability work like Garuda's 4th when charging which expands a circle that quickly marks targets instead of having to move over them with the mouse, still the skill has to only affect enemies in sight.

I say just make the targets killable and have the clone start instantly. If the enemy dies while being finished by a clone just have it disappear its a hologram any way.  Then ash becomes a frame where everything he looks at dies.  Alternatively it could just like a little aura he has so while he moves around  all the enemies get clone killed.  Could be cool to activate it, teleport into a crowd to finish one while the rest get clone killed by the mark aura. 

[CopperBezel]

20 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I dont see Marked for Death as the only good ability the Helminth has to offer, i can think of many combinations to make using the other skills it has, i also replaced my Nova's Wormhole with Infested Mobility because i built my Nova to be Tanky by focusing on a lot of duration wile reducing Range as much as i could so her 3th skill was pretty useless. Now she has an ability that grants her bonus movement speed for a long duration which is much better than what she had.

This kind of thing is great to see, because I've gone completely the other way, focusing on making my Nova a mobile nuker with a Fire Walker and a Pillage build, both replacing Null Star, keeping decent range and Escape Velocity for maximum bip, and the Fire Walker one depending entirely on mods and arcanes for survivability. 

But yeah, subsumed abilities are the real show here, with the fairly weak Helminth abilities and the consistently oversufficient subsume slots just kind of creating a vague and somewhat illusory sense of progression in the Helminth. I do think Infested Mobility and Energized Munitions are damn good at what they do, but the rest of the Helminth-exclusive abilities seem like filler to me at this stage.

[kwlingo]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

A way to balance the Nukes Frames and the others.

Yes Ive had Saryns, Mesa, Volts, Mirage, and Equinox all leave E/SO when I did Ash-Mark for Deaths. Since my damage was 80-90% of total damage. Not sure why they would leave?

[Teletric]

6 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Yes Ive had Saryns, Mesa, Volts, Mirage, and Equinox all leave E/SO when I did Ash-Mark for Deaths. Since my damage was 80-90% of total damage. Not sure why they would leave?

Sounds like you gave those Mesas a taste of their own medicine.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing Mesa, but even I will admit that her 4 is a tad too overpowered and ruins the fun for other players. For Marked for Death, you actually need some measure of skill to pull it off, while for Peacemakers you just stand still and hold down your left mouse button. 

 

[Rosaria]

Thing is, the skill wasn't even remotely overpowered. Like it was, objectively, quite balanced. It couldn't hit anything above or below you, got nerfed by line of sight, and had a minuscule range as well. Wow, you did 8x the damage of everyone else, but with only 5% of the kills. So op. I guess they just got too many people complaining about 'muh damage numbers', or even some of the internal testers doing exactly that. Because it was far weaker than any other nuke ability, it was just fun, and did a lot of damage for the charts. That was LITERALLY it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

You know there are other good abilities to subsume, right?

[Rosaria]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know there are other good abilities to subsume, right?

Doesn't mean that having another one is a bad thing.

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Kebiru25 said:

I hoped that the Helminth System would be the great equalizer. A way to balance the Nukes Frames and the others. But the only good ability to come from it was Marked for Death, an ability that should have been Ash's BS. The Mark for Death nerf destroyed the chance of it being worth the grind. In stead of trying to rework the other useless Helminth abilities, you destoryed the only good one. 

Thanks DE

I don't think Helminth was going to equalize anything, tbh, quite the opposite: you can only replace one ability, so the system mostly benefits frames with innately better stats or abilities, plus one they can get rid of, rather than those who need more help. However, I do agree that it could've offered the opportunity for frames lacking in certain strengths to gain something close to them, yet that didn't work out so well because every ability on offer is either crap or neutered. Marked For Death got nerfed not because it's better than any prominent nuke ability, but simply because it stood out in a roster of flaccid options. At this point, the only real reason to use the system is if one's frame has a dead ability (and nearly ever frame does, unfortunately), and even then, the go-to is probably just going to be Roar or Larva.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

5 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I dont see Marked for Death as the only good ability the Helminth has to offer

I'm gonna branch of what you said here.

 

another good universal power that can be at home on nearly any frame is fire blast.

default 25m range and a static 75% armor strip.

I tested this on my nezha build(with the blazing chakram aug).

comparisons to my old setup for my chakram(spears, chakramX2)

first iteration: would kill nearly every enemy in sight, but required not only my spears to spawn dozens of chakram, but also required 2 casts of my chakram to be effective.

second: requires only a cast of fire blast and one chakram. my guns or melee can pick it up from there. i replaced firewalker with fire blast so my spears are still an option for much higher levels(the CC it provides as well as spawning more chakrams. on top of the fact that the dmg boost when an enemy is marked increases EVERY time they're hit with a chakram...which there will be about a dozen or two bouncing between them. this is because each time a speared enemy is hit by a new chakram, it spawns another one, which multiplies the dmg even more. i know people who play nezha know this, and it's not really room nuking since it takes time to setup....and a lot of energy, but its still VERY effective. fire blast just makes it even more so.)

 

 

other combos that can be just as good is using lull on high range frames. imagine a loki running around with his max range and duration build lulling and disarming enemies.

or loki replacing decoy with molt(my decoy, with my build, lasted 65 seconds. slotting molt in its place and molt lasts nearly twice as long AND can survive better AND i can use its aug to heal if i need it.)

 

M4D is seriously not the best ability helminth has to offer, there are so many underrated combos that people are sleeping on because "ROAR AND WARCRY META ON EVERY FRAME!"

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, Rinleric said:

Doesn't mean that having another one is a bad thing.

No, it means that losing one isn’t the end of the world.

[Rosaria]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, it means that losing one isn’t the end of the world.

What it does mean, however, is that DE is once again refusing to let players keep things that ultimately don't hurt any other part of the game. That they're once again not bothering to playtest anything and everything they release. That they're once again pulling the "unintended interaction" card when it only ever hurts the players when it's pulled.

[3mptylord]

8 hours ago, Emolition said:

I never knew about the power  I just ranked right past it and totally ignored it. Not until the patch came out I saw that apprently it was a good power as my view of it when reading the power was that 1 or 2 targets right next to the marked target would take damage so was totally unintresting for me. I just wanted to reach 10 so I never have to worry about the slots.

Same. I assumed it behaved how it was bug-fixed to behave - and put it on one or two builds with the intent of splashing versus specific enemies, but ultimately thought the situation of a high-health enemy in the middle of a pack was probably too obscure to be reliable. I had no idea it was splashing the damage dealt, rather than damage received, and that the area was apparently "kill everything". 

If Marked For Death was your only interest in the system - then I pity you. I've been getting a lot of fun out of it - experimenting with different builds and combinations. Ember's Fire Blast, Rhino's Roar, Protea's Dispensary, Hildryn's Pillage... there's a lot of interesting combos. 

I'm all for keeping things that aren't negatively affecting the experience for other players - but it sounds like Marked For Death was negatively affecting the experience of players using it. I mean - look at all the threads saying the system is worthless otherwise. That one, pre-nerfed ability was clearly setting all your expectations/minimum-thresholds for interest too high. I would also say that any Warframe that requires a Helminth infusion should definitely be buffed, rather than being dependant on Helminth balance - that is a negative experience for players, too. 

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Subsuming Warframes already provides most of the exp you need. If you reach 10 and still have Warframes to subsume, it feels like a waste of exp.

[(XBOX)Kebiru25]

When I talk about the Helminth abilities I'm talking about the ones given by Helminth, not Subsuming. Stealing other Frame abilities are great, don't include subpar choices in the mix. Most of them can be emulated with a Mod or a Subsumed ability that's better. What's the point of designing them if there's a Mod that can do the same thing without wasting energy? I can think of better stuff. like...

The Rebuild Shields should detonate the remaining Sheilds in an AoE before restoring them.

Perspicacity should be Duration based instead of "next hack".

Energized should give up to 100% ammo efficiency.

Conpanion Heal should Res all companions 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

as soon as i saw some videos about marked for death i knew it would get nerfed and i didn't bother putting it on any frames of mine and i just went with my own ideas what abilities to stick on my frames.

[lnfine]

31 минуту назад, (PS4)SlyFox5679 сказал:

as soon as i saw some videos about marked for death i knew it would get nerfed

Honestly I don't understand what's so OP about M4D. A situationally useful ability that only really works on certain frames. And even then is pretty much about as effective as throwing ensnare and swinging your sword at the resulting crowd. IMO the only neat stuff that came with it was a more reliable way to proc trickery.

 I mean Octavia exists. She does it better, map wide, ignores LoS, for less energy, and her gameplay is as interactive and engaging as watching paint dry.

M4D at least encourages you to actually press buttons other than crouch.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

2 minutes ago, lnfine said:

Honestly I don't understand what's so OP about M4D. A situationally useful ability that only really works on certain frames. And even then is pretty much about as effective as throwing ensnare and swinging your sword at the resulting crowd. IMO the only neat stuff that came with it was a more reliable way to proc trickery.

 I mean Octavia exists. She does it better, map wide, ignores LoS, for less energy, and her gameplay is as interactive and engaging as watching paint dry.

M4D at least encourages you to actually press buttons other than crouch.

true but i don't think DE likes any nukes since press 4 to win is a thing with some frames. but i was always a fan of setup's before nukes so debuffs are in place then you blow them up. but i'm funny like that since i mained Nova Prime for a long time lol.