The desparity between melee and guns

[(PSN)lydon123]

The difference in useability between melee and ranged options can not be denied. We have seen melee 2.0 and 3.0 but why not firearms 2.0?

Melee weapons have always been reliable, useable and done tons of damage. When I see lower mr players, the majority of the time they are swinging their skana about like a mad gazel while that braton sits in between their sweaty back muscles for most of the mission and it's pretty much the same thing in the late game. 

Sure, some ranged weapons do fine in the steel path. My personal favorite is the kuva chakurr. I'm not saying ranged weapons are not viable but they are behind melee and by a fair gap in my opinion.

Assault rifles for example are pretty pants in steel path. I would love to use a braton prime and sure, I could, if I didn't mind spending an extra 10 or 20 minutes in the mission (which i do).

It's been this way since for as long as I can remember and hoping for a range weapons 2.0 seems futile but maybe one day I can smash through a horde of steel path grineer with a braton prime or a corinth prime or a vaykor marelock the same way I can with most melee weapons.

Some suggestions:

A combo meeter and mods assiociated with that combo, similar to the melee system

A damage balance rework of all firearms

Stop nerfing range weapons when they are actually fun and useable

[Sevek7]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)lydon123 said:

I'm not saying ranged weapons are not viable but they are behind melee and by a fair gap in my opinion.

I would replace "fair" with "large" ;)

I would really like to see a rework of range weapons as you suggest, or at least a revision of their stats. Especially important is the fact that lots of the semi-auto weapons are in a really bad place. 

[Proscriptor]

i can run SP with braton prime just fine

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

The thing is Melee is supposed to trade having to get closer to enemies for higher damage output. That’s still the case, but guns should probably be looked at.

[(PSN)lydon123]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

I would replace "fair" with "large" ;)

Large is more accurate to be fair xD

[(PSN)lydon123]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The thing is Melee is supposed to trade having to get closer to enemies for higher damage output. That’s still the case, but guns should probably be looked at.

Most of the maps put you in close engagements plus the AI like to charge straight toward you. They rarely hold position to take cover and engage at distance. Getting in to melee range seems much easier than staying at distance, especially with the way spawns work with enemies spawning all around you. Some types of weapons such as semi auto and assault rifles just cant compete with melee in terms of usability. The game is more melee focused anyway because ninja's in tight close qauters maps but I'd just like some beefier range weapons to even the playing fields a bit. I love a bit of pew pew in my action type games. 

[Wolfchild07]

Yeah I've been watching a new player go through the game. She hardly ever uses the braton or the kunai. It's just easier to run in, deflect the bullets and just cut them down in 1 or 2 swings with barely modded dual skana. It's silly really. The ranged weapons she only uses for shooting cameras and stuff. Or starts shooting an enemy and just switches to melee anyway cause it's just quicker and easier.

I have to add that yes, melee is supposed to be more dangerous, but it's not. You mitigate so much damage just by having your melee out that switching to ranged weapons will get you killed anyway.

[Sevek7]

41 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The thing is Melee is supposed to trade having to get closer to enemies for higher damage output. That’s still the case, but guns should probably be looked at.

Yeah I remember that the devs made this argument for melee power too. i.e.: It's dangerous to get close, you should be rewarded with increased damage for taking that risk!

There's only one problem... it's not dangerous up close! Melee range is actually the safest place to be. Due to LoS, if you are in melee range then most enemies will have their vision blocked and won't shoot you at all. The enemies directly in front of you are basically stunlocked due to your melee spam. The only reason to consider this argument is because of the melee slams by heavy gunners / bombards. But if have primed sure footed, then that single disadvantage is negated! Not to mention, melee seems to block a lot of the knockdown procs anyway. 

Perhaps it's anecdotal, but in all my testing, remaining at long range is far more dangerous, and taking this risk rewards you with... drastically lower damage... 

[(PSN)lydon123]

15 minutes ago, Wolfchild07 said:

Yeah I've been watching a new player go through the game. She hardly ever uses the braton or the kunai. It's just easier to run in, deflect the bullets and just cut them down in 1 or 2 swings with barely modded dual skana. It's silly really. The ranged weapons she only uses for shooting cameras and stuff. Or starts shooting an enemy and just switches to melee anyway cause it's just quicker and easier.

I have to add that yes, melee is supposed to be more dangerous, but it's not. You mitigate so much damage just by having your melee out that switching to ranged weapons will get you killed anyway.

This comment is on point. I tried to get my misses to play once. When she found the melee button, that was it. She just ran around chopping stuff up. Nothing wrong with it of course but just shows how pushed in to melee you are. I certainly find it safer to get in to melee unless im back up in a room where nothing can spawn around me or if i'm in low levels. Aim gliding and sliding helps stay safe while shooting but thats just effort xD

[(PSN)lydon123]

16 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Perhaps it's anecdotal, but in all my testing, remaining at long range is far more dangerous, and taking this risk rewards you with... drastically lower damage... 

100% agree. It's only rewarding on lower tier gameplay as you can take hits. I do wonder if de play their own game. It's very clear that melee is the safest and optimal option on higher level content.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lydon123 said:

Large is more accurate to be fair xD

I'd say it is closer to titanic myself.

Way way WAY too many Primaries and Secondaries aren't even good if you ignore melee entirely.

Anyone remember the Veldt? Of course not because it is a semi-auto rifle that barely competes with a Latron Prime...which is only slightly better because of the Latron specific mod Double Tap, and even then why would somebody stack a single shot weapon up 20 times when they can just dumbfire a Kuva Bramma into a crowd and wipe a room out?

I doubt people remember thrown secondary weapons even exist too.

[(PSN)lydon123]

28 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'd say it is closer to titanic myself.

Way way WAY too many Primaries and Secondaries aren't even good if you ignore melee entirely.

Anyone remember the Veldt? Of course not because it is a semi-auto rifle that barely competes with a Latron Prime...which is only slightly better because of the Latron specific mod Double Tap, and even then why would somebody stack a single shot weapon up 20 times when they can just dumbfire a Kuva Bramma into a crowd and wipe a room out?

I doubt people remember thrown secondary weapons even exist too.

I actually really like the veldt. My favorite though is the prisma grinlock. I used to use the grinlock back when tower keys were a thing so nostalgia. I love semi auto weapons and shotguns. Even bought a cheap riven for the grinlock as i liked it that much. It does good damage on headshots but doesn't kill fast enough on say a steel path survival. 

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)lydon123 said:

Even bought a cheap riven for the grinlock as i liked it that much.

I did the same for the Veldt, that sadly still doesn't make it a good option most of the time.

Because in the time I spend aiming somebody else could press 4 or shoot an explosive weapon into a room making all my aiming worthless.

[(PSN)lydon123]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I did the same for the Veldt, that sadly still doesn't make it a good option most of the time.

Because in the time I spend aiming somebody else could press 4 or shoot an explosive weapon into a room making all my aiming worthless.

That's a whole different topic lol Yeah it can be frustrating when you actually want to aim and head pop things only for the whole room to explode with bramma love. But that sort of thing is really hard to balance. 

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Perhaps it's anecdotal, but in all my testing, remaining at long range is far more dangerous, and taking this risk rewards you with... drastically lower damage... 

I've found similar, and indeed, found that there's a sort of "sweet spot" where enemies are very dangerous. At high ranges, enemies tend to miss quite a lot (though with recoil and spread on most guns, so is the player). At closer ranges, melee becomes viable to mitigate incoming damage entirely.

Perhaps coincidentally, that "sweet spot" is about the average engagement range in non-open worlds...

I think the current issue isn't strictly that melee is stronger, but that the game still positions melee in a "secondary" position. The game's design is, overall, "shooter". Guns first, swords second. If it were more "hack n slasher", and guns were retooled to work along those lines - secondary, or support, to melee - there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem. But the game needs to lean into that, or else we have a disparity like "guns are the main thing, but they suck".

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, (PS4)lydon123 said:

Most of the maps put you in close engagements plus the AI like to charge straight toward you. They rarely hold position to take cover and engage at distance. Getting in to melee range seems much easier than staying at distance, especially with the way spawns work with enemies spawning all around you. Some types of weapons such as semi auto and assault rifles just cant compete with melee in terms of usability. The game is more melee focused anyway because ninja's in tight close qauters maps but I'd just like some beefier range weapons to even the playing fields a bit. I love a bit of pew pew in my action type games. 

I never said it was a good design. I just said that’s it’s intended design.

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I never said it was a good design. I just said that’s it’s intended design.

And that design probably made some sense in a previous version of the game without easy melee blocking and bullet jumping, let alone really, really durable frames.    With shield gating and slightly higher base armor, even a frame like Banshee can shrug off some hits in the two seconds or less it takes to get into melee range now.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2020-09-18 at 5:46 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The thing is Melee is supposed to trade having to get closer to enemies for higher damage output. That’s still the case, but guns should probably be looked at.

Once you factor in that melee adds auto damage blocking, CC immunity while attacking (mostly), strong AOE and that you can jump across the room in 1 sec, you are not really trading off much. Plus, top melee weapons, against an enemy not immune to status, can deal at least an order of magnitude higher damage than any ranged weapon. 

Do not get me wrong, I do think melee weapons is where they need to be. Ranged weapons need much work. Most AOE ranged weapons are in okay territory. Single target, especially none sniper, definitely are not. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

On 2020-09-18 at 3:36 PM, Traubenzuckr said:

i can run SP with braton prime just fine

Finer than your melee?

[Proscriptor]

it was a reply to this part of OP

"Assault rifles for example are pretty pants in steel path. I would love to use a braton prime and sure, I could, if I didn't mind spending an extra 10 or 20 minutes in the mission (which i do)."

meaning braton prime is unsuitable for steel path

but for me it's suitable, and i don't spend any noticeable extra time doing missions mostly with good primaries such as braton prime

whether it's better than running melee isn't the question here, but only whether it's good enough

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

whether it's better than running melee isn't the question here, but only whether it's good enough

I could be wrong but I thought we were talking about how melee is orders of magnitude more powerful than any gun in the game.

[Proscriptor]

you're wrong in how you imply my posts aren't relevant.

you aren't reading the OP carefully enough.

OP's claim is that melee is too good compared to guns because you can play SP with melee, but not with guns such as braton prime (one of the better guns) because they are too weak

this is false

it's false because you can play SP with braton prime comfortably, which i know from personal experience

the only way to claim the disparity between melee and guns is too great is to correctly assign the nature of this disparity: why it is too great

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

I could be wrong but I thought we were talking about how melee is orders of magnitude more powerful than any gun in the game.

Only if you count in base 0.02 or are doing something like comparing the stug to kronen prime.

[kevoisvevo]

well give guns some 300% status and crit damage mods. melee is powerful because of its acolyte mods. guns only have hunter munitions. my kuva kohm on harrow reaches around 400k+ dps compared to my 500k+ dps on him during lasting covenant

[Andele3025]

On 2020-09-22 at 7:03 AM, kevoisvevo said:

well give guns some 300% status and crit damage mods. melee is powerful because of its acolyte mods.

Give all melee stance modifiers of Outcast and Blind Justice then to make up for headcrit difference too.