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DE, come on! STOP nerfing accidental fun stuff.. What are you trying to prove?


Scar.brother.help.me

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1. Xoris
2. Helminth (ROAR, etc)
3. Marked for Death

you give us too much salt in our sweet cups of tea lately

what's the point? 
If you want your game to be good and fun - then you do something opposite. Your update was much better before you started to nerf it pre-launch.

You could make a good present to your still kind of loyal fun base and actually start boosting the worst and least used abilities, gear, mechanics.
Try to make every update have a traditional revisit of some least used mod and just improve some numbers on it.  It would have been so cool, I'd wait every update to at least read about that. Your game needs revisits of old stuff much more often than you do. This is very important. There is too much meta stuff in this game and the only fun way to make it more diverse (sorry for the word diverse) is to give us more to choose from.
Your game is an endless grind and players are ok with that if they still play it. But the GRIND could be much more fun than it is now. We favor AOE damage abilities only because you stick to the horde-shooter and make them the most useful and least annoying. There is no fun in single target when you shoot a crowd. Make us some sniper missions, let us have fun with bow and throwing knives oriented content, Let us have some kind of miniboss waves endless mode, where we can fight stronger and stronger eximus+++/Arena Unit, one or a few at a time and test our gear like with steel path. Just try to make a few non-horde missions.
And more quality of life stuff, don't take it away from us (i.e. Xoris nerf or Greedy Pull) give us more instead (Let us Unbind Naramon Power Spike instead, and even Zenurik's Heavy attack efficiency instead)

Buff/Rework OLD stuff, don't nerf and limit good stuff.

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IMO, their reasons for nerfing those things make sense. Roar would step on Rhino's toes quite hard if left as-is, Xoris was almost exclusively a very good stat stick, and Marked for Death was overshadowing most every other Helminth toy. And it's important to remember that just buffing things leads, mathematically, to a nerf: you buff snipers, then buff enemies, and you've basically nerfed explosives. (I say that so often that it's getting rote. "Just buff everything" will never work the way you actually want it to.)

The problem is that DE paints themselves into those corners. They didn't need to pick Roar in the first place. Stat-sticking is a major thing they've let continue for ages now. And Marked for Death overshadows what are, for the most part, Arcane buffs tied to an energy cost (compare the shield repair skill to Hildryn's Pillage). As far as I can see, they could easily improve the unique Helminth abilities to bring them closer to Marked for Death's level (minus the mod double-dipping - that does land pretty square in "bug" territory) and the works would just sit in a comfortable spot, neither overtaking nor being overtaken by regular abilities.

That they also don't introduce matching content for new tools is an entirely different kind of problem, and maybe a sign that Warframe is going the way of the Romans: it can't stretch any further. Or, at least, it doesn't want to risk it, especially given the reactions to things like Archwing in the past and the amount of work that's often required.

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It's because the balancing team, for some ungodly reason, has this silly idea in their head that for some reason, Warframe is a PvP game. Wow, I can't believe this guy killed things more efficient than me! Guess I just won't play.........

Now, that said, I understand not having /one single option/ for high end stuff, and thus balancing in required. Balancing things hard as if they're being designed for a PvP setting or at the very least a competitive one, is frankly moronic. No one asked for nerfs to M4D. Actually, correction. The people abusing the heck out of saryn, mesa, equinox, ember etc. are the ones who likely complained, if anyone. Wow, this guy did 98% of the damage. But he only got like 6 kills, when the other people have 100+. Whew, guess we just can't let that slide.

Apparently we're actually playing a hardcore, competitive PvP game, guys and gals.

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58 minutes ago, Rinleric said:

It's because the balancing team, for some ungodly reason, has this silly idea in their head that for some reason, Warframe is a PvP game. Wow, I can't believe this guy killed things more efficient than me! Guess I just won't play.........

Wrong. Warframe is an multiplayer online game. any time you have a game where you play with others there needs to be balance. this argument would hold true if Warframe was single player. its not.

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Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

Wrong. Warframe is an multiplayer online game. any time you have a game where you play with others there needs to be balance. this argument would hold true if Warframe was single player. its not.

I'm not exactly saying there can't be balance. But the balance is done to such a dramatic degree that it's almost impossible to deal with. They don't make other options more viable. They make them the only options. And a lot of times, their efforts to nerf things aren't because it's making the game braindead, or easier. It really has no rhyme nor reason. Something comes out, a lot of people use it. It likely gets nerfed, because they equate 'amount used' to 'power output'. I will level with you, a lot of things they release that are huge and powerful sorta make sense that they'd see a nerf. (See: kuva bramma and marked for death) But in some cases, the nerfs are so extreme because few of them play the game to any true degree. Or at least it feels like that.

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Just now, Rinleric said:

I'm not exactly saying there can't be balance. But the balance is done to such a dramatic degree that it's almost impossible to deal with. They don't make other options more viable. They make them the only options. And a lot of times, their efforts to nerf things aren't because it's making the game braindead, or easier. It really has no rhyme nor reason. Something comes out, a lot of people use it. It likely gets nerfed, because they equate 'amount used' to 'power output'. I will level with you, a lot of things they release that are huge and powerful sorta make sense that they'd see a nerf. (See: kuva bramma and marked for death) But in some cases, the nerfs are so extreme because few of them play the game to any true degree. Or at least it feels like that.

i totally agree with you here. their balancing needs an overhaul just like core systems. and as long as the powercreep remains out of control, its not going to get better. 

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11 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i totally agree with you here. their balancing needs an overhaul just like core systems. and as long as the powercreep remains out of control, its not going to get better. 

Yeah, I get the vibe that they have a baseline "power" and they are trying to get Marked for Death closer to the baseline.

And what they need to do is bring the other outliers down to the baseline... but the other outliers are all combo counter-dependent builds and most nukes. If they nerf these... the player base is going to explode, even if it would actually give them what they want (a lot more stuff being viable), partially because these builds also allows for efficient farming.

Warframe's disparity between bottom- and top-tier is on an exponential curve. At this point, "buff to everything to equal power" is no longer viable without making the game completely trivial or undoable for newer players. Ironically, the Warframe Revised armour revision kind of exacerbated that because they equalised enemies a fair bit but not our damage output.

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Yeah how dare they try and balance issues as if the community had been shouting at them to do for years now. How dare they fix something that players instantly found to be obviously broken mechanically and performance wise right away instead of leaving it for months/years almost as if that's also something players have asked for. How could they go and fix something that was hitting the damage cap in an aoe with two button presses.

Oh no.

Please do tell how one can be expected to un-nerf all of that and to not make any other nerfs while making all other options viable in comparison. How does one make any CC or supporting abilities good when the alternative is to multiply your damage to points of being able to instantly kill entire rooms of enemies with other abilities/aoe weapons? Or how does one make other damaging abilities viable when we have ones that already instantly kill entire squads with zero effort regardless of their levels?

Cause I'll tell you how that's done: you either turn everything into an instant kill on all enemies in range at the press of a button or you balance the game (yes, nerfs) to a point where the top performance options don't trivialize the game to the point that competition is impossible.

Yes the lower end of things need buffs but things on the opposite end of the spectrum are the worst offender. Underpowered things can be false options that at worst are a wasted investment but overpowered things push out viability of other viable options due to pushing player perspective towards only overpowered options and thus limit alternatives.

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13 hours ago, Rinleric said:

Wow, I can't believe this guy killed things more efficient than me! Guess I just won't play.........

You must be new here, because that's literally what the people say when something kills more than them or use a frame they don't like and "forces them" to abort the mission.

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There are good things that happened for the two years I play this game, they keep me here for the hope of more (melee 3.0 rework is a very good example - improvement in stats and combo mechanic, some mods revisit, stance button combinations changes and more. But it can and has to become much better, if polished - it can shine). On the other hand those nerfing trends... I don't know, may be this is the cheapest and easiest way of how to manage your own game, but this hurts more than it helps. DE, you are very good creatively, how your game looks and feels is amazing, fashion is cool, sound of the game, cool names and characters, but game play wise.... this is so mediocre.. I mean the missions are playable, sometimes even fun, but at most cases they are
booooooooring...
and the worst thing is that the most BORING are the MOST REWARDING ones. I fall asleep during defence missions so often, I think I fell asleep at around wave 8 on Hydron for at least 20 times, half of those I woke up at wave 11-12 dead but defence target is still alive and I slowly struggle with specters till wave 15 (and I lose more time and get less enemies and rewards for it that in the end I don't feel rewarded for my efforts at all). You make us repeat the same boring missions for so many times to farm something so that there is no fun way to do it, we look for the most effective ones to make these repeats as fast as possible - so don't take away new options, let us at least have it in more different ways. There are always a few OP methods of killing things in your game at all times that you allow, but when you nerf new of them and keep the oldest ones - what's good in it?
 I know that you can more, DE fellas, just let someone who really wants to handle balance, who actually plays your game and cares handle it. And of course - listen to your critics, like Brozime, Gaz TTV, Shy and many more - they LOVE your game and want it to be better, not the way THEY personally want, but they speak common sense and a lot of players agree with them. Try to listen to them and you'll understand how they actually care for you and your game more than any of your defenders on this forum.

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I looked at Marked for Death and thought to myself, "There is no way that this isn't going to get nerfed so I'm not going to waste my time on it until it's been fixed" 

I was right, I'm using it post nerf and it's awesome, it does everything I thought it would do, it's incredible!

People just need to learn how Digital Extremes operates, they release something way too powerful for their tastes because testing in house isn't something they can do apparently so they just chuck it out into the live game and then nerf it after the Squirrel brigade has wasted time and effort on it because it's the latest amazingly op super popsicle stand doofle doo-dah fun thing in the game EVER!!1!1(one)! because some twitch / you-tuber says so or whatever the reason instead of waiting a week for the nerfs to come and go.

Patience is a virtue my friends.

It also saves you a hell of a lot of forma and bile mats.

 

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The thing with roar is that there's zero chance it'll step on rhino. The damn ability is only 30% and that's already pathetic. Even with a maxed power strength build you'll barely get it passed 90% which is pretty fair for an off frame damage boost with 300% PS investment, which on most frames you WON'T have.

I don't think DE has ever heared the saying don't break what isn't broken.

Roar, warcry and larva aren't popular because their OP. Their popular because they just work on 90% of other frames in general. They deliberately either picked already popular abilities or abilities everyone's called junk(and many less flattering things). What exactly did they think, that someone was going to use MC on chroma because it's still better than his one? Well it is, but really no.

They do this to themselves every freaking time they put something even a little good/accessable out(and this system being MR 8 locked is way to accessable). Honestly DE either needs to stop putting something out they don't want us to use or try playing their own Fing game. Their not even nerfing broken stuff most of the time anymore. Just anything popular that works, eventually their going to pull another viver gate and people are going to get sick of them. Never forget viver gate, ever.

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1 hour ago, trst said:

Yeah how dare they try and balance issues as if the community had been shouting at them to do for years now.

That's the Brigitte excuse, and it's bull. Yes, the community has been begging for some balance, but they've been begging for buffs to a ton of things, not nerfs. And requested nerfs would probably be addressed to stuff like Miasma and peacemakers, which are still untouched.

 

EDIT: Also, even if people wanted MFD nerfed, no one wanted it to be entirely removed from viability by capping it to enemy HP. That's the worst thing you could do.

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5 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

That's the Brigitte excuse, and it's bull. Yes, the community has been begging for some balance, but they've been begging for buffs to a ton of things, not nerfs. And requested nerfs would probably be addressed to stuff like Miasma and peacemakers, which are still untouched.

 

EDIT: Also, even if people wanted MFD nerfed, no one wanted it to be entirely removed from viability by capping it to enemy HP. That's the worst thing you could do.

And balancing requires nerfing, something that the portions of the community that actually understand this accept as the cost. As well like I pointed out there can't be balance without knocking down the outliers on the overpowered end of the spectrum.

Also Marked for death has not been made unviable. It's still perfectly capable of killing rooms of enemies if you just target an enemy with the highest total health and shield values. The only thing that was entirely removed is the ability to instantly kill enemies that couldn't receive finisher attacks. And if needing to think for even a moment as to what enemy you need to target with something makes it unviable then that should speak volumes for how broken the games balance is.

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2 minutes ago, trst said:

And balancing requires nerfing, something that the portions of the community that actually understand this accept as the cost.

Which is understandable for things that are genuinely busted. Catchmoon was OP. Itzal's blink was not. Neither was subsumed Dispensary.

DE nerfs according to popularity, not by power, and buffs are a twice-per-year business, if that. So while people are constantly begging for improvements to material that's fallen by the wayside, new stuff gets nerfed down the moment it comes up. (But Mesa remains untouched, for god knows what reason)

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What i still don't get is how DE considered the way Marked for Death used to work to be 'accidental'.

It was the perfect way to make single target damage relevant again.

Now you can use it with something like your Soma that already kills hordes efficiently to spread damage faster because the damage cap isn't helping you with anything that struggles at mass-killing otherwise.

It just makes things that are already good even better while the nerf only affects single target damage that wasn't efficient or meta to begin with.

But this isn't even surprising in Sarynframe.

They need to nerf the Trinity's, Harrow's, Marked for Death's, sniper and bow rivens, daggers etc. in order to justify another Mesa buff right?

We are too powerful.

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