DE, come on! STOP nerfing accidental fun stuff.. What are you trying to prove?

[trst 6,404]

11 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Which is understandable for things that are genuinely busted. Catchmoon was OP. Itzal's blink was not. Neither was subsumed Dispensary.

DE nerfs according to popularity, not by power, and buffs are a twice-per-year business, if that. So while people are constantly begging for improvements to material that's fallen by the wayside, new stuff gets nerfed down the moment it comes up. (But Mesa remains untouched, for god knows what reason)

But Itzal was in that it pushed out viability of other Archwings as the only aspect of them that had value in open worlds was speed. And Dispensary had the potential to be overpowered in the hands of any frame with toggles abilities as energy orbs are one of the only ways to restore their energy. Which thus would push out viability of other options for frames this applies to, it's the same reason the Xoris was nerfed.

And popularity is influenced by power. As well most things that were considered strong once are still just as strong today, the only thing that has changed is perception regarding these as we've since gotten even stronger options. Again the existence of overpowered options push out other things that aren't as overpowered regardless of how effective they really are.

But as for why frames like Saryn and Mesa are still untouched it's probably because of community reactions like these threads. When people freak out this much over fast nerfs they'll freak out just as much, if not more, for nerfing something that remained untouched for as long as it did. Which literally happened in regards to the Catchmoon nerf and the old Chroma fixes.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx 1,658]

3 minutes ago, trst said:

But Itzal was in that it pushed out viability of other Archwings as the only aspect of them that had value in open worlds was speed.

So itzal west the best option in open worlds.  So what?

It was the best tool for the job in that one specific scenario.  The problem was, no one used archwing for anything else.  Honestly, how many ever played archwing missions?  About the same number as play pvp, damn few.   Would you support nerfs to something in general gameplay because it was good in pvp, or lunaro?

Because nobody used archwing for anything other than zipping about on poe or fortuna, it massively skewed the data.  It was bloody obvious.  If they had developed aw more, and based their decisions on actual usage in aw, they would have got different results.

Look what happened when rj landed, amesha and to a lesser extent, odonata, became the meta.  Because it wasn't just about trying to travel huge distances on open worlds.

And popularity is also influenced by convenience, and fun.  Yes, power rules,  but this is a game where the goal is to become as powerful as possible.  And the reason for that is we're faced with so many long grinds doing very repetitive missions we want to be as efficient as possible just so we can move on.

[Gasau 656]

Lol this meta slaves cry.

Game is already press 1 button to win. Even on steel path. And you want to make it even more easy.

No wonder why pvp is so popular in this community.

 

Do you want to be able to play without hands at all right?

[Colyeses 1,452]

1 hour ago, trst said:

But Itzal was in that it pushed out viability of other Archwings as the only aspect of them that had value in open worlds was speed.

This is the exact issue: the Itzal was also non-viable. Open worlds forbid combat use of Archwings due to en masse deployment of anti-air oneshots. The Itzal was never -strong-, it's just that all of its competition was objectively trash.

The solution is to fix general archwing viability, more than to just butcher the one that still has some vague semblance of value. 

Similarly, there's a few Helminth options that are far more popular than most, not because they are overpowered, but because they have no meaningful competition. Take perspicacity: the only reason I'd want to use it is to speed up Ivara spy runs. But the ability is so damn bad, wasting cast time and energy on a single hack that doesn't apply to sorties, that dispensary is more useful in comparison.

The solution isn't to nerf dispensary. It's to buff perspicacity. It's got a purely cosmetic levelling tract right now (and %chance to function is offensively bad game design to begin with), so that should be replaced with a rising quantity of free hacks.

But that kind of stuff doesn't happen. We just get nerfs.

[kgabor 2,281]

1 hour ago, Gasau said:

Lol this meta slaves cry.

Game is already press 1 button to win. Even on steel path. And you want to make it even more easy.

No wonder why pvp is so popular in this community.

 

Do you want to be able to play without hands at all right?

Damn meta slaves!

Instead of figuring out new ways for healing the enemy or tickling them one by one by mk. 1 Kunai they want to deal damage!!! 

And on top of that they want to play...*gasp* efficiently!

How dare they kill anything in a small radius for a relatively large energy cost with their slow rifles and finisher animations?

 

[Scar.brother.help.me 667]

3 hours ago, trst said:

And balancing requires nerfing, something that the portions of the community that actually understand this accept as the cost. As well like I pointed out there can't be balance without knocking down the outliers on the overpowered end of the spectrum.

Also Marked for death has not been made unviable. It's still perfectly capable of killing rooms of enemies if you just target an enemy with the highest total health and shield values. The only thing that was entirely removed is the ability to instantly kill enemies that couldn't receive finisher attacks. And if needing to think for even a moment as to what enemy you need to target with something makes it unviable then that should speak volumes for how broken the games balance is.

you ignored Peacemakers and Miasma - I see it for 2 years already, comparing to that MFD was only a fun and cool room cleaner, not a map wiper.
 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[--Q--EXHALER_Wolf 81]

shhh... fun is not allowed. You can't tell a rock how to roll down the hill.

[Kaotyke 33,420]

They even nerfed Xaku's enemies! They die faster and more efficiently now!

[Proscriptor 808]

20 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

not specifically buffing it, they only said they would take another look at it, because the people that usually balance were on rotating vacation or something like that.

they could easily take another look and decide they are happy with it

they will almost certainly buff it

[_Anise_ 200]

15 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

they will almost certainly buff it

I am hoping they do, but to what level ? would they put it right back where it started or not because that would bring into question why they nerfed it in the first place! and yeah people said it was just about "ok" and looking at the numbers DE themselves released roar was still seeing double its use

[Jarriaga 6,365]

3 hours ago, trst said:

But as for why frames like Saryn and Mesa are still untouched it's probably because of community reactions like these threads.

"Probably"? I think the radioactive and vitriolic toxic wasteland the boards were around Dcember 2019 when Pablo said on a Twich stream that he'd like to rework Saryn and nerf her a little remove any semblance of doubt as to that being a factor. Pablo himself went to the threads to clarify that just because that's what he'd like to do doesn't mean he's going to do it, but he was then attacked because just the fact he thought Saryn needed a nerf was unacceptable, thus the threads got pulled.

I still have the URL for some of them archived:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1148572-saryn-nerf-incoming-confirmed-by-de-pablo/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1148572-saryn-nerf-discussed-by-de-pablo-video/

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1148572-saryn-nerf-discussed-by-de-pablo-caution-this-thread-is-a-war-zone/

Here's also one of the few ex-partner videos still available on the subject:

When else have you seen so many threads pulled when discussing comments made by DE employees?

There's also his relatively recent interview with Jizo and Triburos in which he implied DE feel hostage to the community and haven't done some specific nerfs because of the backlash it would cause.

Quote

Pablo said: Imagine a world in which every single enemy is controlled by a deepmind AI (The StarCraft AI designed to beat pro-players), so the smartest AI you can have or imagine in every single enemy. You'll be able to just press 4 and just freeze them in place and shoot them in the face. There's absolutely nothing the smartest AI can do if you can crowd-control them forever. So how do you counter that? You have to nerf those things. But imagine the level of friction it would generate with the community if all CC abilities in the game were nerfed.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Corvid 9,022]

2 hours ago, kgabor said:

And on top of that they want to play...*gasp* efficiently!

And I'm left wondering why people seem to want efficiency more than an engaging combat system.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX 130]

9 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And I'm left wondering why people seem to want efficiency more than an engaging combat system.

I'm sure we do, but DE isn't capable of making one. Combat wise the systems are simple when you get down too it. Of de wants to make something engaging they can't do it with the combat. Introducing outside challenges that require a cordinated team like destiny would be nice. But DE has proven they just want mindless slaughter and bullet sponges to be most of the gameplay(trials back when de?).

[HeartPurity 719]

" Dee! Dee! Deeeee! Fun detected. "

[kgabor 2,281]

17 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And I'm left wondering why people seem to want efficiency more than an engaging combat system.

For me, using single target weapons to clear mobs is more engaging than pressing 1 with Saryn or pressing e with anything, or spamming left click on a full-auto weapon.

Marked for Death would have just been the perfect bandaid (well not really, still requires way too many extra steps and has too many cons, but it would have helped) to make that a valid playstyle in a horde game.

But i gave up on DE's ideas about an 'engaging combat system' long ago, which is why i play other games for that, like War Thunder or games in the Grand Strategy genre.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx 1,658]

32 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And I'm left wondering why people seem to want efficiency more than an engaging combat system.

Because of the mindless, repetitive grinds we're forced into if we want to progress.

[IceColdHawk 12,614]

22 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Calm down. They are buffing Mark for Death next week.

Where? What? Who says that? 

[(PSN)robotwars7 20,303]

and so ends the latest chapter in the neverending war between buffing and Nerfing. 

someone should get a meme of Fass and Vome and rename them "Buff" and "Nerf" "Buff" should be Vome since that's the one we see the least.

[Corvid 9,022]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Because of the mindless, repetitive grinds we're forced into if we want to progress.

It's only a grind if you don't enjoy the gameplay itself.

 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

and so ends the latest chapter in the neverending war between buffing and Nerfing. 

someone should get a meme of Fass and Vome and rename them "Buff" and "Nerf" "Buff" should be Vome since that's the one we see the least.

Ironic, given that the update, as always, buffed more items than it nerfed. If you see nerfs more than buffs, then it's because your vision is blinkered.

[(PSN)segulibanez65 289]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

and so ends the latest chapter in the neverending war between buffing and Nerfing. 

someone should get a meme of Fass and Vome and rename them "Buff" and "Nerf" "Buff" should be Vome since that's the one we see the least.

This made me chuckle more than it had any right to.  Touché

[Hokibukisa 714]

everybody with a brain knew it would be nerfed when it was discovered to have no damage cap

Granted, that was really REALLY REALLY foolish of DE. Foolish, short sighted, and lazy. But anyways, everyone with a brain saw the problem with that and knew it would be nerfed.

After spending a short few weeks frequenting the forums, I now see why DE doesn't read them.

You are all so fake. Acting surprised at a change like this, when it isn't surprising at all.

More than likely OP is addicted to negative emotion and the stress hormones that it produces.

Indulge in it, I guess.

[Jarriaga 6,365]

21 minutes ago, Hokibukisa said:

You are all so fake. Acting surprised at a change like this, when it isn't surprising at all.

Check the Riven disposition update threads. You see the exact same people complaining release after release all the way back to revisions from early 2019. They post about their indignation as if it was the first time and you don't see some of them posting at any other time. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Jarriaga

[vomder 1,583]

They are trying to prove that no fun is allowed. They have always done this kind of "balancing".

[Galix 56]

While they are at it, how about a buff to Expedite Suffering to make it... IDK usable?

Give it a duration, allow it to be AOE, and if they want to make it super simple, just any slash / toxin procs you deal the duration is instantly set to zero and you deal all the accumulated proc tick duration in a single burst kinda like Oberons Hallowed Eruption augment.  

As it is currently there is hardly any use for it if any at all atm.  The cone is too limiting, the actuation of the skill is too clunky, and a whole bunch of other issues.  And what's worse is how it is ranked as the 9th out of 10 ranks on Helminth.  In its current state it doesn't deserve the 9th slot.  Too much effort into getting it and for it to be as clunky as it is... well...

[ItsDaKoolaidDude 137]

"What would you do if every Helminth ability was good?"

idk, DE. maybe have FUN for once? maybe have a reason to stick around rather than treat you and this game like a one-night-lay?

christ, I havent even re-entered this game for 3 years and yet I'm still lingering out here in the fringes, just watching how quickly things are just going to crap recently.

I want to play, but DE, you're not making it compelling to have me play.