DE, come on! STOP nerfing accidental fun stuff.. What are you trying to prove?

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Funny that.  It's almost like you intentionally missed the good parts, to construct a strawman argument.  Let me put this into terms of your argument, and make it simple.  Nerfs are making something bad good.  DE has outmoded the need for as many nerfs, for simply releasing bad content and buffing it.  That's not an improvement, it's the opposite side of the same failure coin.

Then there is no winning. Unless they hit that sweet spot they will always have the failure coin. I can see where this is going.

12 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Release state is changed, things get better.  You cite an initial state, then immediately follow up with the changes required to make it good.  It's some pretty blatant double think to make this statement and come forward with the opinion that people only focus on the nerfs, when your thesis requires a bad release state for new content.  If you want to claim that 

I didnt. Its not a thesis. When they nerf something powerful there is a big backlash. When they buff something weak there is a smaller one because they released something weak.

14 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me offer the counterbalance to this, with DE's examples as the backbone.  Plague Star released.  It was a 4 stage bounty, and offered the ability to increase enemy count and levels.  This allowed scaling rewards for scaling difficulty, it offered veterans and new players alike rewards, and it reused old assets to great effect in a new way.  The rewards were universally good, as plague zaw parts and built forma have no limitations on their use.  This all came about because of player feedback, that having Lephantis in a large open world would be great.

Now, that was DE a few years ago.  Today we get bad releases, which require 2-3 overhauls to matter.  We get a community frame with the requested ability to add void damage....but any enemy requiring void damage is immune to this buff.  Frames have gone from some minor nerfing post launch, to the need for several buffs to make them viable.  Scarlet Spear required huge changes to rewards, didn't even introduce all of them in the first week, and had more artificial wait timers than the average trip to the DMV.  You claiming that this timer was frustrating, but acceptable is baffling as the same argument was used to remove the alert system...something people conveniently forgot for Eidolons, fishing, Deimos, and all the other bits that are time locked.

Should I tell you about the many of us who were peeved that the hemocyte was just a Lephantis recolor?

And you are telling us of bad releases in those years ago, but using an Event that had re-used assets in a place that was already stabilished and had had been ironed out beforehand as an argument compared to a New Landscape. Thats not a good argument.

You cite the issues about Xaku having Void Damage and willifully forgetting why it doesnt effect Eidlon Shields, it was even spelled out: to not make Amps irrelevant.

I already told you about the "Release weak to then buff" backlash before.

Yeah, they didnt and it was make balances, so they put the common and uncommon Arcanes first, made balane changes to points and then added the Rare and Legendaries.

Oh, I didnt say it was acceptable. I said it was annoying and that was it. Just that it had nothing to do with nerfs.

Oh, now we are talking about Alerts and other time locked things too, huh? Because I never mentioned those.

23 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Maybe you think differently.  Maybe this is all borne out of ambition, and DE is delivering something truly awe inspiring and new.  Maybe the positives I listed were not all of them in your opinion, and it's reasonable to somehow assume I also listed all of the negatives....somehow.

Let me now ask you a fundamental question.  What are DE's peer group doing?

Fortnite/Fallout 76 - Offering seasonal content with a start and end date.

Square Enix - Group content with Final Fantasy, that has a real player appreciable value.

Ubisoft  - Open worlds similar to Warframe in size, with more content.

Everyone - A minimum 8-10 hour single player experience, with multiplayer, at a cost less than one full prime access pack (offered 4 times a year).  Oh, but the DLC.  Yeah... 6.99 USD for a single skin to a single frame.  No ground to stand on there for DE.

You are comparing DE, who is comparatively tiny to the likes of Epic Games (who is currently in a lawsuit War with APPLE of all things), Bethesda, who has the biggest bout of re-used assets and their "16x the detail". SquareEnix, Ubisoft... 2 giants in gaming...

And making Prime Access/Vaults be... let me read the rest. You sound familiar.

28 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Why do I say all of this?  What compels me?  Well, I remember when Zephyr was new.  I remember void keys.  I remember arcade token respawns.  Some of those things were and are bad.  Despite this, DE soldiered on, evolved, and made the game better.  Regular content patches, reasonably quick bug fixes, and they demonstrated crap a short time before it was placed in the game.  It was largely buggy as sin on release, but it got better.  Today, DE is incapable of that follow-through.  

What examples can I provide?  Rivens were introduced to make mediocre weapons function...but today they've given up on that and they're to make player usage stats equal to desired outcomes.  Each new area gets new resources to farm, because it's easier than letting veterans plow through content because they have millions of spare resources.  Features are temporarily removed for years.  Looking at you dark sectors allowing clan control and raids.  All of this has been replaced by ambitiously bolting new content onto the game, with no connective tissue.  We have a dojo....but it's been superseded by the relays as a grouping point.  We have railjack, but after three years (1 out and 2 in development) it's still missing much of its core content.  We have use for archwings....as glorified taxis over mostly barren open worlds.

My point here is that people would be much less focused on broken promises if DE didn't release bad, to their own schedule, against huge promises made in a public forum.  That's right, developer streams.  It's immensely difficult to look past the failings, when DE alleviates them by promising more.  

Ghoul Saw.

Dual wield Nikanas. 

Command intrinsics.

etc...

Promises made, and yet to even have an expected delivery date.  Note 2016 for that Nikanas promise.  2018 for the Ghoul Saw.  2019 for command.  The connective tissue here is that DE promises too much to make up for failures.  These promises are stretched out, and delivered bad.  They then make more and bigger promises.  Remember that Scarlet Spear was the introduction of squad link....where you never linked two squads.  Murex crew linked to server pool, Condrix crew linked to server, and the server channeled incoming Condrix to Murex team with 0 interaction.  The displayed function, before Grendel, was team A on ground links to team B in the sky, and they have direct interaction.

 

 

 

Side note, regarding the Limbo and Khora nerfs....you don't get it.  What builds did they actually nerf?  A hint, the large range low duration ones.  Just them.  I built for long range, high duration, and garbage strength.  It absolutely did not affect me.  What about other frames?  Well, Frost's bubble didn't get any nerfs.  Gara's vitrification didn't get a nerf.  That means instead of making all powers less effective on sentients as was sold to us, they targeted specific frames to eat a new nerf.  Even things like exalted blade can be quickly fixed by a single void damage event....but Khora and Limbo cannot be fixed.

Care for other examples?  Self damage was a core mechanic for years....until it became the meta for high damage frames.  Excalibur got to lose super jump after movement 2.0, but Zephyr and Valkyr are stuck with movement abilities from that era.  Zephyr is going to get a deluxe skin....seemingly only after Xaku despite 5+ years of service.  The truth is that 99% of what DE does is reactionary, to problems of their own creation.  It's not difficult to actually follow things back to their origin, and see DE at the root of all DE problems.

If you disagree, let's look back to the second dream.  DE ambitiously told a story, and it was big.  The edges were rough....but we accepted it.  Then we waited.  Content spaced out.  The War Within came out.  It was alright.  Then the content spaced out more, to the point of yearly droughts.  It was "fixed" by the media blitz leading up to PoE.  DE got a huge infusion of players.  They then watched them bleed off because nothing was added regularly.  The fix was Nightwave, as a copy to other games doing seasonal events, and that replaced the alert system.  Nightwave didn't have manpower...so it rapidly stretched from a defined window to half a year.  Now it's got intermissions longer than the first event.  The common thread here is ambition fueling failed delivery, fueling ambition, leading to failures.  It's depressing, but it's the DE we've had for a long time.  No longer is this the DE that released, patched, and moved on.  It's now the release bad, patch to minimum viability, leave bugs for years until you rework and stomp the old while introducing new.  That's why I don't give them the benefit of doubt.  They haven't earned it since the days of War Within....and it's getting harder each year to hear more promises when the delivery seem to get sloppier each time.

Am I being unfair?  Am I ignorant of how difficult it is to be a code monkey?  As a functional grease monkey with only some code in it I'm going to say no.  Let's draw a parallel.  Company releases car.  Car comes with 3 of 4 wheels.  Two are 20", one is 18", and they promise that if you buy it today it'll cost 20% more than if you wait for the deluxe version...but because they upgraded the firmware for all vehicles you may experience issues with your previously working car.  No you can't skip the firmware update, if you don't get it the car will be disabled.  No, the promised features for the new model do not have a delivery date.  No, there's no consumer protection equivalent to the lemon law.  Yes, despite all of this there will be people willing to pretend that you are doing amazing things because there's no immediate price tag.

What I noticed is that you are going around and around on tangents about how bad the current state is, about broken promises (even though they did release Deimos on the promised day, you failed to mention that) about ignorance, talking about a LOT of things that just makes me want to skip it all because its a tangent after tanget and having nothing to do with the original point I made and making as if it makes what you say have some sorth of validation.

Overall, you are taking every single bad thing and pointing out there and saying nothing of substance against the point I made.

Look, I want to ask you one thing. I know you. Your manner of writting is awfully familiar. But I dont remember you because you changed you ID, what was it before?

[killerJoke66]

7 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

 

You cite the issues about Xaku having Void Damage and willifully forgetting why it doesnt effect Eidlon Shields, it was even spelled out: to not make Amps irrelevant.

 

So .. apparently both hypotetically and logically its okay for a biosuit magical being having appropriate powers against creatures that are called 'sentients' which are supposed to be weak against the void theme , not having any say about eidolons in plains ... i mean if we are going with this inconsistency might as well not create any weapon or any frame that features void at this point because its gonna be overpowered in those PoE Hunts . (not like madurai school and couple other things don't do that already .. making content trivial , ehm) 

My concern is that we will forever be bound to using these clunky(yes personal opinion) kids and DE wont care enough for alternatives for doing tridolons or just shifting similar utility power to other stuff or back to warframes . DOn't get me wrong i dont 'hate' the space kiddos but after some years it gets real boring and as an adult in a relatively high quality(memes aside) grafic gore-filled game i generally dont wanna see a little creature coming out of my war machine suit dangling around like a lost Alad V's grandchild ..

[ChaoticEdge]

See DE, if your reading this, this is what you did for not being careful, like you did it 1st to the Bramma, meaningless to do nerf in ammo counter, never realized you got Protea to actually get ammo back, Nekros can do the same, then we got other type ammo like the gear filling ammo.  DE it is time to grow little aware of chose of nerfing and learn to rebuffing the weapons again instead of nerfing it hard.  Shouldn't be worried about numbers, just do it like you always do, make new enemies to denied over power meta. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

14 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

its just a matter of time they remove the interaction , tho energizing dash  does the same thing so .. i suppose the'll just remove any shield regen outside of gaining them through energy orbs , is my guess . I tested that in steel path lua disruption she goes well up to a point but i seem to die after the 20th round on demolyst hyena's rapid spinining attack somehow busting through the constant shield gate , also energy leeches screw your day but granted it is supposed to be not here so .. not defending or against it im just saying.

So it isn't even game breaking, devs should also consider how soon a player can get that specific loadout, sometimes I think immortal frames and the like should be OK if they need a lot of work, setup and dedication to pull off.

[killerJoke66]

35 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

So it isn't even game breaking, devs should also consider how soon a player can get that specific loadout, sometimes I think immortal frames and the like should be OK if they need a lot of work, setup and dedication to pull off.

About that needing setups .. its little to nothing really , i just put some mods there when testing  just not to have 8 empty slots 😁 

But to be fair , i feel like a similar shield gating hildryn could/should be a thing regardless , if hildryn just chooses not to use her abilites in my opinion , though personally i dont know what the sacrifice/payoff would be for that near immortaility state for balance.

[VanFanel1980mx]

4 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

about that needing setups .. its little to nothing really , i just put some mods there when testing  just not to have 8 empty slots 😁 

Still, how long until a new player can get Hyldrin for example? not to mention all the needed components to build her.

[killerJoke66]

6 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Still, how long until a new player can get Hyldrin for example? not to mention all the needed components to build her.

Well i personally am not gravitating towards neither sides for Hildryn but i can easily say they should bring her immunity(grey hp bar) upon depleting shields , i dont recall it getting removed , maybe its a bug and she just has normal shield gate just like everyone else and bringing the grey bar back for recharging time for shields along with normal shield gate(so you dont insta-die somehow) should be happening , if they remove the ' energy-shield loop 'that is . 

[Kaotyke]

9 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

So .. apparently both hypotetically and logically its okay for a biosuit magical being having appropriate powers against creatures that are called 'sentients' which are supposed to be weak against the void theme , not having any say about eidolons in plains ... i mean if we are going with this inconsistency might as well not create any weapon or any frame that features void at this point because its gonna be overpowered in those PoE Hunts . (not like madurai school and couple other things don't do that already .. making content trivial , ehm) 

They didnt want us to by-pass using the Operator. If you want to call that inconsistent, sure.

Because this talk of "X makes things easier so there shouldnt be a problem if I use Y" is just the pithole I try to avoid in these forums.

But this purely for the sake of gameplay mechanic. Xaku's powers still reset resistences btw. Just doesnt effect Eidolon shields.

9 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

My concern is that we will forever be bound to using these clunky(yes personal opinion) kids and DE wont care enough for alternatives for doing tridolons or just shifting similar utility power to other stuff or back to warframes . DOn't get me wrong i dont 'hate' the space kiddos but after some years it gets real boring and as an adult in a relatively high quality(memes aside) grafic gore-filled game i generally dont wanna see a little creature coming out of my war machine suit dangling around like a lost Alad V's grandchild ..

Yes. We will use them.

The theme of this game's story (WHAT?! WARFRAME HAS A STORY?! LOL! L_argeMAMA!) is both "identity" and "family". And it from the perspective of the "child".

But then agan, God of War was also a family themed series and from the perspective of the child for all of the those, except from when the Child of War became Dad of Boi. But hey, he had to get there eventually and outgrow his edgy phase.