DE's mindset about usage stats

[Hyohakusha]

They simply interpret usage stats in whichever way allows them to justify what they planned on/ felt like doing to begin with, without regard of how it affects the game as a whole.

"This is really popular, lets make more." = Fortuna, Deimos, Kitguns, Modular Archwing proposal.
"This is really popular, lets nerf it." = Kitgun Rivens, Itzal, Catchmoon, Limbo/ Venari because of one limited event and too many other things at this point.
'This isn't very popular, lets abandon it." = PoE (what's the Unum), Fortuna (spider orb taking a permanent bath), Railjack, Liches and too many other things at this point.
"This isn't very popular, lets force it on people." = Conservation, a meta they don't like due to nerfing things and thereby restricting choices, Status Immune/ Invulnerable enemies.

And these are just some recent examples off the top of my head.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Hey, I'm using broad brushes here. I'm not getting paid to make the game, so I'm not going to put in "pay me" effort. :P

Khora's 1 does not take setup with a decent weapon. And the effort is "hit 1 to build up your combo." While WF shies away from cooldowns (except on Rebuild Shields and Volt's 1 for some odd reason), Either a longer cast for a greater effect or just popping off tons of fireballs, yeah, sure. I have no problem with that.

Okay, how about this, as you charge Fireball, you hold it in front of you, and it gathers fire. The longer you hold, the more AoE it does. The tradeoff is that you aren't doing anything while you're charging it.

You're right. I'm not capable of finding a use for Loki's decoy. Because outside of some jank, it literally doesn't have one. The way aggro actually works in this game means that your decoy may grab the attention of one or two of your enemies, and then he's down. Your changes are fine, but if he ran around like an idiot, I think that would be even better. I also would like Loki to have a true offensive ability, but that's just spitballing at this point.

As for the rest, some background. See the (NSW) next to my name? Yep. I play on the thing that also has Smash Bros. You're right, no one is forcing me to do anything. But no one is doing anything except what I listed, so if I want to group up, that's pretty much what I got. Yeah, I guess you're right I did everything I really NEEDED to do. But I did just start a fresh clan after some... events, and that's something that I'm kind of poking in on. I'm only limited by my forma.

I think you're missing my point. Yes, you can do more than nuke rooms. You can cast several Blood Altars around chokepoints as Garuda and make infinite health for you and your allies. You can coat interception with Snow Globes. You could, in fact, just fling Bastilles just flippin' ERRYWHERE as Vauban. You can. ...Or you can just take a Saryn with a max range Miasma or even a Vauban flinging Flechette Orbs ERRYWHERE or even Banshee spamming Sonar and hittin' 'em with that phat Resonance Quake beat and get the same job done without having to worry about killing the crowd controlled enemies, because *ahem* dead guys don't shoot. Yes, I enjoy finding fun combos. Right now I'm digging Baruuk because 1) finding a decent color scheme on him is a challenge unto itself (monochrome works best) and 2) he's the closest to a fighting game character. Just wish the melee was more than "mash A, maybe hold ZL." 

As for WoW, notice how I stopped playing. Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean my point is invalid. Good game design is good game design is good game design. You cannot tell me that Warframe's bosses are well designed or memorable. Every fight literally boils down to "hit them until they go invincible, avoid the counterattack, repeat," or "shoot the glowing spot," and usually a mix of the two. As far as I know, Jordas Golem literally has no attacks and it's basically "follow the weird ship monster and shoot it in the engines." Hell, at GDQ, the runner literally one-shot it with a Velocitus (painfully underrated weapon). While I'm on that topic, the GDQ boss "showcase" really was one of the worst ways to get WF publicity, and the chat on the stream showed it. I don't know if the VOD is still up, but what I gleaned was less than positive. Especially when the hardest boss in the showcase was apparently Sergeant.

Off topic: if DE released an Attack Pack (90s toys by Mattel. Think Matchbox meets HR Geiger) of Jordas Golem, I'd buy it. Especially if it was like a foot long.

Look, my point is that yes, WF is a sandbox with infinite breadth, but it's maybe an inch deep. Generally speaking, once you figure out how to mod optimally, you either build on its strengths or just go full Dayren and make a max fire-rate Peculiar Bloom Amprex (please do not do this). Frames have a bit more nuance, but it's always going to be "figure out your favorite ability or combo and boost the stats that make that good while making you not die." When you have an ability slot that's almost useless (I knew I could get back on topic!), the dev team's response shouldn't be "how do we make the rest of their kit worse." I know Scott's joking when he says "Remove Mesa." At least... I hope he's joking, because look at Itzal. Apparently when your whole gimmick is "push button for yeet," taking that away and putting it on everything sort of invalidates your niche.

Do some things need a nerf? No. Almost everything needs a nerf. Players and enemies alike. Feature creep and power bloat have been a pervasive problem for a long time, and The Great Ensmallening should refer to more than a compression technique on textures shrinking the filesize of the game. Though that's still pretty cool. When I first started playing in 2013, the game was SO different (god I miss not knowing about how Warframes actually work or who the Lotus actually is). Of course new things are gonna sneak in. The Soma alone broke the game when it was released. I tried getting some friends into the game with me, but it was hard for them to enjoy the game when I'd enter a room and set everything on fire, ice, electricity, and toxins at the same time through 2m of wall (Status 1.0 had problems) and have a 125% crit chance, just because I had a few extra hours of free time a week. Mercifully, Soma got nerfed WAY down from that. Now when I run newbies, I find myself literally standing by and watching like a driver's ed instructor with their foot over the brakes at all times or just being a still-helpful troll. 

And I'm gonna make you put your money where your mouth is, Madurai. What should I work on? I have every frame, I have just about every weapon I could possibly want, I'm slowly but surely building up my dojo, and I just hit Nightwave rank 69. When I log-in I don't exactly feel listless, but maybe you have some offbeat ideas for me. I'm open to suggestion!

Yea, that was a pretty verbose response lol. I don't like typing that much either so I'll just say I can't really tell you how to play or what to do if you've been playing for 7 years. You're supposed to have the knowledge to do that. I've played a couple games for 5 to 7 years, but I'm a bit more of a positive person so I tend to continue to find ways to have fun or take a break. In the past, I've provided constant feedback about a particular bug fix or an issue with actual data, but I don't think general rants help much, and with a specific fix like your ember suggestion, you need to get people on board with that particular change in a feedback thread, if the idea doesn't take off, then maybe your idea just wasn't meant to be or you need to keep trying.

It seems people have a tendency to simplify their feedback by saying things like "Everything needs a nerf". But that doesn't provide any information nor is that what everyone may want. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

But that would mean that this is the first time they've ever noticed that no one uses those abilities. Because if that's true then it's also part of the issue of only looking at usage for nerfs.

Or it means that, like the rest of us, the devs are neither omnipresent nor omnipotent, meaning that like all of us they can only handle a certain amount of tasks at one time. Your top priority and my top priority probably isn't their top priority right now. Or ever. And they Shouldn't necessarily align either. We have far less info than they do naturally.

Starting to fall down that same rabbit-hole here, lets both keep our sanity.

[DCaedus]

DE nerfing good stuff to make everything bad instead of buffing bad stuff to make everything good til the end of times.

[Hypernaut1]

"De hates fun?" is such braindead logic. i dont know why its such a popular phrase. Maybe im not understanding what it really means?

[Duality52]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

"De hates fun?"

It's more of "their (community's) vision isn't my (DE) vision, so let's change and make our vision universal", amplified more since last week's Devstream's awful responses during the Helminth Subsumed Stats.

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2020-09-19 at 5:22 AM, Drachnyn said:

Sure, making a garbage ability like chroma's 1 worth casting will require more than just a simple stat boost but that's not true for every ability on the list.

I would argue that the only thing Chroma's 1 needs to be worth casting is this:

1. Give it a tap/charge mechanic, like Hydroids Barrage. Tap it for a quick basic fireball kind of cast, or hold it down for a more powerful, souped up "I DIDN'T ASK HOW BIG THE ROOM IS" fireball cast.
2. Make it's stats scale off primary weapon. This seems to be working for a LOT of abilities lately, but I especially like it for Chroma's 1.
3. BONUS: Make it so Effigy specifically uses Chroma's 1 for its attack, spamming the basic "tap" version of it, complete with the stats scaling off your primary weapon.

[johnno23]

Whilst the thread has been growing yesterday the wife went out for the day so I pumped warframe thru to my living room. used my little steam box to get the game on the Tv and the sound over my hifi.

Now if I were to tell you awesome the Quartakk sounded or if you could listen in and feel the power of the sound as the Quartakk unleashed hell and destruction everyone would want to load it up and go nutz. 

Nice dream as in reality the regular Quartakk might not be the best weapon and certainly can on occasion struggle with an enemy but the soundscape is mind blowing. The sound file for the reload mechanics is just down right pleasing. Kinda brings me back to the old Classic film Commando with Arnie.

why do I mention this ? Well many players choose a weapon not only because of it's damage potential but also for its style how it handles and absolutely because how it sounds.

I have weapons that do more damage have higher crit or status but sound like a cat sneezing. Levelled for mastery and dumped. I am pretty sure that I am not the only player that has a similar reaction to some weapons and therefore I thought to add my thoughts to this thread as once again just using "player numbers x usage stats" does not paint a true picture.

So how about trying an experiment. Instead of looking at a weapon and saying "oops made that way to powerful got to nerf it" how about taking 1 or 2 other weapons and showing them a little love and not just buff their damage but maybe put a little more oomph into the sound of the firing? Make a couple of weapons that truly give an option for the player as opposed to every time they find something great you slap it down and make it mediocre.

[Colyeses]

On 2020-09-19 at 2:21 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

There is no possible way that DE has nearly enough data/info to implement these "buffs" you were disappointed not to hear about. We didn't start with Helminth from Day 1

The Helminth data isn't the be-all-end-all though. This data has been trickling in long before Helminth was even conceived. Chroma's 1 saw practically no usage from day 1. Everyone knows it's a bad ability, and if DE somehow doesn't comprehend that yet, the game is in a much worse position than previously considered.

The Helminth data just confirms what the community already knows. It's an easy to swallow packaging of info that's been readily available for years.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

6 hours ago, Colyeses said:

The Helminth data isn't the be-all-end-all though. This data has been trickling in long before Helminth was even conceived. Chroma's 1 saw practically no usage from day 1. Everyone knows it's a bad ability, and if DE somehow doesn't comprehend that yet, the game is in a much worse position than previously considered.

The Helminth data just confirms what the community already knows. It's an easy to swallow packaging of info that's been readily available for years.

Its a good point and i'd honestly completely agree with it instead of half agree with it if it weren't for 1 mistake that a lot of people, not just you, keep making. The idea that Chroma's 1 is a bad ability is completely, absolutely subjective.

I know many people who have played many characters/roles in different MMO's and enjoyed using said subjectively "bad" powers/items/weapons/whatever for completely different reasons. Some just liked them for aesthetic reasons, the way things looked or sounded. Some liked them because they had function for their playstyle, some liked them because their goal in the MMO was to imitate a comic/movie/tv show character, and X item fit it.

Your point is not a bad point, its just a narrow point. If the only goal anyone should ever have in Warframe was "Max Damage" then you'd be correct. But that mandate doesn't exist, people play it for different reasons, and play differently. Chroma's 1 is probably terrible in endgame or in 2 hour long survivals etc. But keep in mind that most-if-not-all Game Forums are a representation of a minority of players, not a majority. The Forums itself is not a good indicator of what "needs" to be done, but instead indicates what a vocal minority "wants" to be done. As neither you nor I have DE's data, you cannot actually claim that Chroma's 1 isn't used, the same way that I cannot, and have not been, claiming it is.

And powers being replaced in Helminth isn't a good indicator either if you really think about it. If my frame has 3x 10/10 powers and 1 i'd rate 9/10, which 1 would likely be replaced? Does that suddenly mean my 9/10 power drops to being a 1/10 power just because it was replaced? If i rush to answer that question i may give the wrong answer, much like if DE rushed to change things based on too little information from a new system that may not be a reliable indicator of anything. Theres no simple answer, and thats why it takes time. And keep in mind that this entire thread has been based on "someones impression of someones answer", not facts and not something DE posted on the Forums or announced. Impressions. Guessing.

[keikogi]

On 2020-09-21 at 2:12 PM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

argument there. I was just pointing that out since the 4th is supposed to be the pinnacle of a frame's capability yet some are so bad that you're better off replacing it with a non-4th. That's pretty bad. And the fact that several frames have multiple abilities that are so bad people are replacing them at that rate attempting to make them more useable and yet DE doesn't think that is some sort of indication that they need work. Helminth can't even fix that issue on the frames with multiple bad abilities because you can only replace one so the bad ones remaining will just keep being unused and unfixed. 

I don't necessarly agree that a 4th skill should be the strongest skill. I feel like it just need to be a defining skill. What In mean be defining ? Either be a unique mechanic or heavily tied to the warframe theme. To be fair at should be at least important enought to not be replaced by anemic roar. 

But does speak to a bigger issue. It feels like only Pablo knows how to desing a warframe because when anyone else does there are basic mistakes like non scaling damage skills , redundant cc , skills that only come up once a full moon and a badly distributed power budget. Here a few examples 

Why tether granade is a thing ? Seriosly is not like Bastille/vortex has a cd so why would I use a tether granades. 

Khorra is a nice history lesson , the whole IPS fiasco was a proof DE did not understand it's own damage system and it is broken to this day. 

Octavia , that's some serious tunnel vision , you wanted so hard to make the metrome a thing that you forgot the gameplay on a  game. While she is obnoxiously powerfull her high octane gameplay is press 4 , press 1 , press 3 , spam crouch. The best part is to play her well you have to muder the whole music thing by optimizing the song.

Revenant , I have more of a conceptual axe to grind , revenat occupies both the sentient desing space and the vampire desing space and delivers a meh gameplay at best ( either do a one shot combo over and over again or do a unrelated dance )

 

 

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

The idea that Chroma's 1 is a bad ability is completely, absolutely subjective.

No idea what confusing narrative you try to create. Data is available and it shows people are replacing this ability. Your anecdotal story about friends using defective skill for lulz & gigglz only reinforces this stance, since they value subjective lulz over objective functionality.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

31 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

No idea what confusing narrative you try to create. Data is available and it shows people are replacing this ability. Your anecdotal story about friends using defective skill for lulz & gigglz only reinforces this stance, since they value subjective lulz over objective functionality.

I haven't created anything, i've simply clarified, and if its confusing then please proceed to read it again.

Personally i think the only thing that could be seen as confusing now is how my anecdote could be seen as reinforcing the idea that a power is "bad". It inherently does the opposite. Keep in mind that as you chose to skip the context of the post you replied to, the same way you seem to have skipped over the post itself, you missed that we were talking about a power being labelled bad in absolute terms, as well as its usage numbers.

Unfortunately as you chose to skip the context of the conversation, you also missed the previous points clarifying why this "data" you are referring to is more than likely unreliable at best. Don't get me wrong, i understand that theres a lot to read through among the 3 pages, but right now the only thing that could give me the aforementioned "lulz and gigglz" is taking the above post seriously when its clear that there is no understanding of context behind it.

I have no problem with opposing opinions, if you had read any of the previous posts you'd clearly see that. I do however have an issue when it comes to anyone ignorant of context jumping in and throwing around unnecessary accusations of "spin", as you have with your "narrative" comment. If you feel like educating yourself on the ongoing discussion then please feel free to read things from page 1 and i'll gladly await your return to have a civilized discussion on the matter, the same way i clearly have with others.

If you don't have the time nor patience for that though, don't expect anyone to have the time or patience for you.

[ShortCat]

1 minute ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

-snip-

I did not skim over your post. I generally disagree with its content as well as the way your structure your argumetns. Like:

• Data provided after 1 week is not "reliably" (dismissing the possibility that it is actually collected all the time), thus labeling it dismissive while not providing anything on your part.
• Stating "skill A bad" a subjective bias, even though 1) there is data; 2) there is feedback; 3) you counter it with a highly subjective anecdote yourself.
• Use of non-arguments like "Forum is a vocal minority". Well then, where should developers get their feedback from? Silent majority?
• I do not need context of the whole discussion to contest the "data" topic. Those posts were perfectly selfcontained.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I did not skim over your post. I generally disagree with its content as well as the way your structure your argumetns. Like:

• Data provided after 1 week is not "reliably" (dismissing the possibility that it is actually collected all the time), thus labeling it dismissive while not providing anything on your part.
• Stating "skill A bad" a subjective bias, even though 1) there is data; 2) there is feedback; 3) you counter it with a highly subjective anecdote yourself.
• Use of non-arguments like "Forum is a vocal minority". Well then, where should developers get their feedback from? Silent majority?
• I do not need context of the whole discussion to contest the "data" topic. Those posts were perfectly selfcontained.

Cool so you're presenting facts instead of opinions then. Lets dig in with some simple clarification questions so:

1) Explain how my anecdote itself could be subjective? That statement honestly baffles me. It leans towards the idea that you may not fully understand what Subjective means but i'm willing to openly listen. I'm not entirely sure how you could have a personal feeling towards events or times you weren't present for but i'm interested to find out. Considering Subjective is literally a synonym for Personal. We can all have a subjective view of Warframe because we all play/have played it. Tell me which MMO's i was referring to, which powers/weps/items i was referring to, and then your subjective view of those events.

2) Your first point actually, ultimately confirms that your argument is not backed up by context. Which in essence means you have no idea what you're talking about as you have missed answers you're now asking questions about. I've covered the "more than 1 week" thing. The post might actually be on this page. There was also another where i was discussing powers with another individual and stated that i believe powers should have had a balance pass before Helminth. So the second question is obvious, how exactly did you miss all that? Because i wont be retyping things.

3) So your first point jumps way too far ahead of itself, claiming i'm "not providing anything" (even though from the very start i've made it painfully clear that everything i've presented is opinion, not fact. Another detail missed due to your context problem), but then you try to back up your stance with "there is data". Ok, third question arises, or more a request i guess. Please provide your link for DEs data? Not a Video of a devstream of course, that would be silly. If your Bank asks you for a Utility Bill you dont send them a video of you holding a vague piece of paper to try to interpret. If you want to try to put forward the idea that data backs up what you're claiming, simply present it. I think thats a reasonable request.

 

I'm just looking for simple answers to the above queries please so we could continue further. No answering questions with questions or side-tracking. Either the questions have answers or they do not.

[(PSN)thegarada]

20 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Its a good point and i'd honestly completely agree with it instead of half agree with it if it weren't for 1 mistake that a lot of people, not just you, keep making. The idea that Chroma's 1 is a bad ability is completely, absolutely subjective.

I know many people who have played many characters/roles in different MMO's and enjoyed using said subjectively "bad" powers/items/weapons/whatever for completely different reasons. Some just liked them for aesthetic reasons, the way things looked or sounded. Some liked them because they had function for their playstyle, some liked them because their goal in the MMO was to imitate a comic/movie/tv show character, and X item fit it.

Your point is not a bad point, its just a narrow point. If the only goal anyone should ever have in Warframe was "Max Damage" then you'd be correct. But that mandate doesn't exist, people play it for different reasons, and play differently. Chroma's 1 is probably terrible in endgame or in 2 hour long survivals etc. But keep in mind that most-if-not-all Game Forums are a representation of a minority of players, not a majority. The Forums itself is not a good indicator of what "needs" to be done, but instead indicates what a vocal minority "wants" to be done. As neither you nor I have DE's data, you cannot actually claim that Chroma's 1 isn't used, the same way that I cannot, and have not been, claiming it is.

And powers being replaced in Helminth isn't a good indicator either if you really think about it. If my frame has 3x 10/10 powers and 1 i'd rate 9/10, which 1 would likely be replaced? Does that suddenly mean my 9/10 power drops to being a 1/10 power just because it was replaced? If i rush to answer that question i may give the wrong answer, much like if DE rushed to change things based on too little information from a new system that may not be a reliable indicator of anything. Theres no simple answer, and thats why it takes time. And keep in mind that this entire thread has been based on "someones impression of someones answer", not facts and not something DE posted on the Forums or announced. Impressions. Guessing.

I agree with you on one point, we do not know the exact skill statistics usage. However, to an extent this falls into the same mistake that DE makes, confusing availability with performance. The question is how often do people with the right resources (energy + helminth) will use this skill. And the overwhelming veteran feedback is that Chroma 1 sucks. 

So lets get to the absolutely false. 

Aesthetics are just that. You cannot balance frame skills based on aesthetics. This is just... dumb. And if you admit that a skill is primarily used for aesthetics, then you admit that the skill is not working and needs to be fixed. 

The helminth skill substitution is a very strong indication of frame skill effectiveness. In Chroma and Mesa, it was very clear cut. If you do not conclude that there is an issue with these skills, based on this info alone, you do not understand the basics of data analysis. Your input then has no value. I could care less about how you, or even DE, "feel" about the skill(s). It is clear cut does not work.

The rating you just did for skills right there, of 3x 10/10 and 1x 9/10 is again complete misunderstanding of how data analysis works. If a skill is constantly dropped it is either: bad or is not an important part of the frame kit. In either case, it needs to be changed. Also, you have to factor in how often do players who access the helminth and resources drop a specific skill. If everyone who does have access to the helminth, plays specific frame and drops the same specific skill, clearly the skill is not 9/10 as you might think.

Lastly, basic understanding of the game. If I have to explain to you how and why a skills like Mesa 1 is obsolete, you do not understand even the basics of the game. And thus, your input is obsolete too. 

 

To add to all this, by DE's admission, most of older frames have obsolete skills. Even though Scott and Steve were dismissive to balance questions on the stream, that does not mean DE, as a whole, does not know which skills work and which do not. They just do not want to commit to fixing them. The helminth pushed the issue to the surface (and credit to Rebecca here for asking good questions on stream). The question is not if, but when. 

 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I agree with you on one point, we do not know the exact skill statistics usage. However, to an extent this falls into the same mistake that DE makes, confusing availability with performance. The question is how often do people with the right resources (energy + helminth) will use this skill. And the overwhelming veteran feedback is that Chroma 1 sucks. 

So lets get to the absolutely false. 

Aesthetics are just that. You cannot balance frame skills based on aesthetics. This is just... dumb. And if you admit that a skill is primarily used for aesthetics, then you admit that the skill is not working and needs to be fixed. 

The helminth skill substitution is a very strong indication of frame skill effectiveness. In Chroma and Mesa, it was very clear cut. If you do not conclude that there is an issue with these skills, based on this info alone, you do not understand the basics of data analysis. Your input then has no value. I could care less about how you, or even DE, "feel" about the skill(s). It is clear cut does not work.

The rating you just did for skills right there, of 3x 10/10 and 1x 9/10 is again complete misunderstanding of how data analysis works. If a skill is constantly dropped it is either: bad or is not an important part of the frame kit. In either case, it needs to be changed. Also, you have to factor in how often do players who access the helminth and resources drop a specific skill. If everyone who does have access to the helminth, plays specific frame and drops the same specific skill, clearly the skill is not 9/10 as you might think.

Lastly, basic understanding of the game. If I have to explain to you how and why a skills like Mesa 1 is obsolete, you do not understand even the basics of the game. And thus, your input is obsolete too. 

 

To add to all this, by DE's admission, most of older frames have obsolete skills. Even though Scott and Steve were dismissive to balance questions on the stream, that does not mean DE, as a whole, does not know which skills work and which do not. They just do not want to commit to fixing them. The helminth pushed the issue to the surface (and credit to Rebecca here for asking good questions on stream). The question is not if, but when. 

 

 

I honestly get the feeling that the post above was somehow dragged backwards in time. It shouldn't appear right now. At all. Allow me clarify:

Firstly though, I'm going to ignore the sly "dumb" comment, the attempted lecture about analytics and the veiled superiority of how the game works and return us to the point of the discussion we're having. I'll simply discuss the above point, and why its the biggest issue with your entire viewpoint as i dont believe unnecessary insults would help a generally friendly conversation continue. Hopefully you'll follow suit. Though i doubt it considering somebody has lied to you at some point and led you to believe that you dictate who's opinion is obsolete and who's isn't.

The reason your statement seems to be from the future rather than now is simply due to how time, relativity, and more importantly life works. See, if within the 3 Weeks that Helminth was released, 80% - 100% of players had installed and used the Helminth System, your personal data and knowledge of analytics would be sound. Unfortunately, thats not the case. 3 Weeks is too short of a time for the majority of the game to have done so. For the 1st time in this thread i'm not saying thats an opinion, thats a fact. There are people who have the luxury of dedicating hours-per-day to Warframe. That exists and i'd never deny it. I've had the same luxury when i was younger. But to think that everyone who plays Warframe has that luxury and has everything set up already just doesn't add up.

In essence though you've just spent more time typing out why you think my analysis of the situation is incorrect than you must have spent checking your own version of "analytics", and because of this a key figure, an absolute prerequisite for any analysis to work, is missing. Nobody here, including me, can tell anyone what the exact % of players are who have contributed to this data that you are sooo desperate for them to act on. From my own ingame experience up to today, my best "Guestimate" would be closer to 35%, but i ofc am prefacing that as a Guess. But keeping true to the idea that this entire thread is literally just opinions not facts, its just as likely to be a low % as it is a high % until DE states otherwise. If you can prove otherwise then simply present it.

I'm not sure if you work in a company that deals in data analytics or even forecasting, most likely as a lot of companies have some form of it, but if you do then ask them to start making big changes when only 30-40% of their target responses return from their next survey or customer satisfaction analysis or anything similar. Ask the Marketting Team or Finance to approve changes when they've only received 50% of the info they usually need to do so. I'd love to hear their response. As well as find out how they felt when they were let go.

[(PSN)thegarada]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

 

I honestly get the feeling that the post above was somehow dragged backwards in time. It shouldn't appear right now. At all. Allow me clarify:

Firstly though, I'm going to ignore the sly "dumb" comment, the attempted lecture about analytics and the veiled superiority of how the game works and return us to the point of the discussion we're having. I'll simply discuss the above point, and why its the biggest issue with your entire viewpoint as i dont believe unnecessary insults would help a generally friendly conversation continue. Hopefully you'll follow suit. Though i doubt it considering somebody has lied to you at some point and led you to believe that you dictate who's opinion is obsolete and who's isn't.

The reason your statement seems to be from the future rather than now is simply due to how time, relativity, and more importantly life works. See, if within the 3 Weeks that Helminth was released, 80% - 100% of players had installed and used the Helminth System, your personal data and knowledge of analytics would be sound. Unfortunately, thats not the case. 3 Weeks is too short of a time for the majority of the game to have done so. For the 1st time in this thread i'm not saying thats an opinion, thats a fact. There are people who have the luxury of dedicating hours-per-day to Warframe. That exists and i'd never deny it. I've had the same luxury when i was younger. But to think that everyone who plays Warframe has that luxury and has everything set up already just doesn't add up.

In essence though you've just spent more time typing out why you think my analysis of the situation is incorrect than you must have spent checking your own version of "analytics", and because of this a key figure, an absolute prerequisite for any analysis to work, is missing. Nobody here, including me, can tell anyone what the exact % of players are who have contributed to this data that you are sooo desperate for them to act on. From my own ingame experience up to today, my best "Guestimate" would be closer to 35%, but i ofc am prefacing that as a Guess. But keeping true to the idea that this entire thread is literally just opinions not facts, its just as likely to be a low % as it is a high % until DE states otherwise. If you can prove otherwise then simply present it.

I'm not sure if you work in a company that deals in data analytics or even forecasting, most likely as a lot of companies have some form of it, but if you do then ask them to start making big changes when only 30-40% of their target responses return from their next survey or customer satisfaction analysis or anything similar. Ask the Marketting Team or Finance to approve changes when they've only received 50% of the info they usually need to do so. I'd love to hear their response. As well as find out how they felt when they were let go.

Here is a question for you. Which group of players do you think the data is most relevant from? The MR9 person with 100 hours in the game or the MR15 person with 1K+ hours in the game? Guess which group had the helminth unlocked and have sufficient knowledge, resources and in game experience to use the helminth efficiently? The data is not coming, it is already here, and have been for at least 2 weeks now. In addition, If the statistics are not representative, as you think, why did DE represent it? DE has around ~200 employees. I am certain they have very smart and competent people there. They will not present information they are no confident in.

On the flip side same goes for the players. You just said "Ask marketing or finance," well... that would be me where I work. Finance and accounting specifically. And I am no novice. I have degrees, certifications and years of experience in my field. The idea that video games are played mostly by teenagers or collogue kids, is 15 years old. There are many smart people, including Ph.D holders, statisticians, physists and so forth. Video games is entertainment for many people between the ages of 30-50. It is not wise to underestimate the player base knowledge and give the devs omnipotence. Heck, warframe started by armature devs that big publishers thought their idea will never work. Now warframe is AAA game managed by devs who are considered industry leaders. Times change. 

I digressed too much, there is more data to see, more than players do. But from what we already see the picture is pretty clear. Again, it is not a question if, but when DE will fix many older frames. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Here is a question for you. Which group of players do you think the data is most relevant from? The MR9 person with 100 hours in the game or the MR15 person with 1K+ hours in the game? Guess which group had the helminth unlocked and have sufficient knowledge, resources and in game experience to use the helminth efficiently? The data is not coming, it is already here, and have been for at least 2 weeks now. In addition, If the statistics are not representative, as you think, why did DE represent it? DE has around ~200 employees. I am certain they have very smart and competent people there. They will not present information they are no confident in.

On the flip side same goes for the players. You just said "Ask marketing or finance," well... that would be me where I work. Finance and accounting specifically. And I am no novice. I have degrees, certifications and years of experience in my field. The idea that video games are played mostly by teenagers or collogue kids, is 15 years old. There are many smart people, including Ph.D holders, statisticians, physists and so forth. Video games is entertainment for many people between the ages of 30-50. It is not wise to underestimate the player base knowledge and give the devs omnipotence. Heck, warframe started by armature devs that big publishers thought their idea will never work. Now warframe is AAA game managed by devs who are considered industry leaders. Times change. 

I digressed too much, there is more data to see, more than players do. But from what we already see the picture is pretty clear. Again, it is not a question if, but when DE will fix many older frames. 

 

"there is more data to see" : Literally what i've been saying this entire time. Thats the point, the entire point.

 

To get to a more serious matter though, I don't agree at all with your comparison of players in the slightest, i truly do think thats the very first time i've seen a version of "Elitist Behavior" on the Forums. Im not suggesting you're the first ever, thats silly, but it is the first i've personally seen. EVERYONE who plays WFs opinion/data matters. End-of, in my book. Just because a player cant align with either your way of thinking or in your example, doesn't fall into Category X, that does not mean their opinion or in your example, their data, doesn't count. I really REALLY hope that was a misstep and wasnt how you intended it to look. Because the answer to your question regardless is its ALL relevant.

 

To answer your query about DE represent/presenting info on the stream, thats a simple update on how things are so far. Its possible i missed it while watching but i didnt hear anyone state they were "Final Figures" or "Review X is Finished" or anything close to that. Where anyone is getting the idea that this was a one-and-only tally of data eludes me. If they did state it though let me know and i'll gladly concede and have a look. Otherwise its more interpretation from out of nowhere. Imaginations running wild. We can agree that they have competent people working there, so at least theres that.

 

Feel i need to clarify something here. At no point did I suggest that only teenagers play. Tbh i was fairly baffled by that until i went and re-read what i posted. On second read-through however that insinuation is still missing. So to clarify:

- First i acknowledged that there are obviously players who do have hours to play Warframe.

- i then reinforced this by stating that i'd never try to deny that fact.

- i further reinforced the idea by including myself, and explaining that when i was younger, i too would have been 1 of them.

- Finally i pointed out the flaws in the automatic assumption that the majority of WF players fall into the category discussed.

Hand-on-heart i would genuinely be apologizing and retracting any claim like that if it were there, or even insinuated. But neither are present in the post. Videogames only being for kids didnt originate in the 2000's however. More like the 80's.

 

I can only guess that the "Omnipotence" and "Armature" details were both autocorrect typos? I cant give anyone omnipotence and my point this entire time is literally the opposite, its even in a previous post, i said they are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent, thus they'd need to wait for true data to come through before making any big changes. As for Armature, yeah the devs arent coils or protective wrapping. Maybe you could clarify what was supposed to be there?

Finally, its good to know i'm talking with someone with similar skills from work. I'd be interested to find out how many things/projects/items/etc you've put through for approval whilst having 30% of the required info or less? I'd never ask for any sensitive information now, obv you shouldn't/don't need to disclose anything further about the job, which you wouldn't anyway with similar basic DPA knowledge anyway, but that kind of figure wouldn't breach anything.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

On 2020-09-21 at 2:36 PM, Hyohakusha said:

They simply interpret usage stats in whichever way allows them to justify what they planned on/ felt like doing to begin with, without regard of how it affects the game as a whole.

"This is really popular, lets make more." = Fortuna, Deimos, Kitguns, Modular Archwing proposal.
"This is really popular, lets nerf it." = Kitgun Rivens, Itzal, Catchmoon, Limbo/ Venari because of one limited event and too many other things at this point.
'This isn't very popular, lets abandon it." = PoE (what's the Unum), Fortuna (spider orb taking a permanent bath), Railjack, Liches and too many other things at this point.
"This isn't very popular, lets force it on people." = Conservation, a meta they don't like due to nerfing things and thereby restricting choices, Status Immune/ Invulnerable enemies.

And these are just some recent examples off the top of my head.

Facts 

[Colyeses]

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

The idea that Chroma's 1 is a bad ability is completely, absolutely subjective.

Yes. It's game design. All game design is, broken down to its absolute minimum, subjective. 

That's not an excuse to just toss in any old crap. Just because there's one singular geezer on the forums that says 'I like vector pad', it doesn't get a free pass out of being called what it is: A terrible ability.

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

I know many people who have played many characters/roles in different MMO's and enjoyed using said subjectively "bad" powers/items/weapons/whatever for completely different reasons. Some just liked them for aesthetic reasons, the way things looked or sounded. Some liked them because they had function for their playstyle, some liked them because their goal in the MMO was to imitate a comic/movie/tv show character, and X item fit it.

And if this was the case, it would be fine. I use the Ocucor, which is not a good weapon, but I have fun with it. It's eccentric and has a bit of extra gameplay to it that most weapons don't. 

But there is a cut-off point where the amount of people hindered by this ability being terrible (Read: Pretty much every single Chroma main) are outweighing the people that enjoy it. It's also crucial to remember that the two different parties can, in some cases, BOTH be given what they want. If people say the Ocucor is bad and I like it, we can both get what we want by having the gun be numerically buffed.

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Your point is not a bad point, its just a narrow point. If the only goal anyone should ever have in Warframe was "Max Damage" then you'd be correct.

Terrible goes beyond 'It does no damage'. There are many factors that can make an ability dissatisfying to use. Visual clarity, ease of use, lack of skill expression, lots of factors. If an ability struggles with a lot of such factors, that is a pretty clear indication that it needs work. 

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Chroma's 1 is probably terrible in endgame or in 2 hour long survivals etc. But keep in mind that most-if-not-all Game Forums are a representation of a minority of players, not a majority.

Okay, but even in regular star chart, Chroma's 1 is still terrible. It's an energy hungry spray of mediocre damage over a small cone that can barely be increased in radius. Any given material at any given level will be easier to use, more effective and will likely have more skill expression and visual clarity. Yes, the forums are not the majority of players. But any given player of Warframe can see why Chroma's 1 would not be touched. 

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

And powers being replaced in Helminth isn't a good indicator either if you really think about it. If my frame has 3x 10/10 powers and 1 i'd rate 9/10, which 1 would likely be replaced? Does that suddenly mean my 9/10 power drops to being a 1/10 power just because it was replaced? If i rush to answer that question i may give the wrong answer, much like if DE rushed to change things based on too little information from a new system that may not be a reliable indicator of anything.

Again, Helminth isn't the full picture here. Chroma's 1 being the most replaced ability on that frame would be data that would be available -before- Helminth's launch. The community predicted that this ability would bite the bullet due to information shared between us as a consensus. Yes, game design is subjective, but that doesn't mean that there aren't outliers that can come dangerously close to just being objectively bad. 

For instance: Imagine a warframe whose fourth ability wouldn't do anything other than kill the frame and instantly make you lose the mission. Would you still be sitting here going 'Well, this ability being bad is -subjective-'? It's an extreme example, but it illustrates that the 'subjective' card is a type of semantics that can grind any discussion of balance and any progress in the game's quality to a complete stop, because it can still be used to defend an ability that literally only serves to make the game worse.

On 2020-09-22 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Theres no simple answer, and thats why it takes time.

Chroma was released in 2015. 

 

And just to prove that everyone can get what they want, here's my suggestion for improving Chroma's 1: Chroma gets a lung meter that fills up as his 1 isn't active. When 1 gets activated, the damage and range are scaled up based on how full his lungs are, going down to empty lungs, at which point it's identical to the current Chroma 1. 

Old Chroma 1 preserved, but new potential given out that could bump this ability into 'usable' territory.

[fr4gb4ll]

not sure what your point of this thread is, but using the data they get from the players use of abilities, frames, weapons, etc... is not only the best way to maintain a game complex as warframe, it's about the only way they have. the only other 'way would be to do nothing at all and leave things as they were released (bugs and all included) or maybe to hunt after singular problems via feedback - and we all know that the majority of players who gives feedback are those who complain about something and not those who praises what they like. acting on such blurred information would only lead to more problems.

On 2020-09-19 at 12:22 PM, Drachnyn said:

On a side note: Rebecca's question about what people will do with the helminth system if every ability was good (meaning it would be a difficult choice to replace something) was strange aswell. Does DE not want every ability to be atleast above garbage tier? Are chroma's and mesa's 1 abilities worthless intentionally? Didnt they say they dont want helminth to influence frame design? That question sounded like threatening someone with a good time and the reaction from Steve and Scott to that question wasnt very encouraging either.

i doubt they 'design' any frame ability as being 'bad' at all - i'm sure every single ability looked good on the paper during the design phase... the problem is more that the devs fail to playtest their designs on a broad spectrum - not only done DE staff but by real players who have the experience with the game to find out those design-flaws (good or bad) real fast. i mean look how long it usual takes some youtuber to show the über-build of a newly releasd frame or weapon... usually less than a day...

DE should just do a closed test server for 'to-be-released' stuff, invite players into this test with a 'none disclosure' agreement so things keep (somewhat) secret and relese new contend more balanced and with less bug going around... but they decided to rather go the 'doing it all ourself' way, which is, imo, a waste of one powerfull and more or less free resource they could use.

[Drachnyn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb fr4gb4ll:

not sure what your point of this thread is, but using the data they get from the players use of abilities, frames, weapons, etc... is not only the best way to maintain a game complex as warframe, it's about the only way they have. the only other 'way would be to do nothing at all and leave things as they were released (bugs and all included) or maybe to hunt after singular problems via feedback - and we all know that the majority of players who gives feedback are those who complain about something and not those who praises what they like. acting on such blurred information would only lead to more problems.

i doubt they 'design' any frame ability as being 'bad' at all - i'm sure every single ability looked good on the paper during the design phase... the problem is more that the devs fail to playtest their designs on a broad spectrum - not only done DE staff but by real players who have the experience with the game to find out those design-flaws (good or bad) real fast. i mean look how long it usual takes some youtuber to show the über-build of a newly releasd frame or weapon... usually less than a day...

DE should just do a closed test server for 'to-be-released' stuff, invite players into this test with a 'none disclosure' agreement so things keep (somewhat) secret and relese new contend more balanced and with less bug going around... but they decided to rather go the 'doing it all ourself' way, which is, imo, a waste of one powerfull and more or less free resource they could use.

The point was that DE is very quick to point at usage when they deem something overpowered but they dont seem to follow up on that logic when something is underused and underpowered. Otherwise the response to 'will we buff abilities like mesa 1 and chroma 1, which are clearly useless (proven again by helminth stats)?' could only be a direct 'Yes'. However that was not the case at all in that devstream.

[fr4gb4ll]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The point was that DE is very quick to point at usage when they deem something overpowered but they dont seem to follow up on that logic when something is underused and underpowered. Otherwise the response to 'will we buff abilities like mesa 1 and chroma 1, which are clearly useless (proven again by helminth stats)?' could only be a direct 'Yes'. However that was not the case at all in that devstream.

i guess that only shows how much the devs of warframe have lost the grasp of their creation over the years which i can't blame them for since warframe sure have grown into a very big game since the first days - but it also shows how much they need to re-think their way of evaluation of new (and also of re-evaluation of existing) contend. involving the players who spend much more time (at least some of them) playing the game in 'normal' conditions than the devs even could (after all, they also need to design, code and fix things too).

[peq42]

On 2020-09-19 at 7:43 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Their goal is to literally get rid of fun by nerfing the stuff that people use and not compensating by buffing the bad stuff.

They had a good month after Tennocon while people were hyped for Heart of Deimos, but now they are back to being clueless as all hell about what they're doing.

this. Simply this.