DE's mindset about usage stats

[(PSN)thegarada]

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

I disagree that it was a hard question. But we didnt even get a noncommittal "we'll look into it" would have atleast shown that they knew it was the right thing to do. From Scott's reaction it seemed to me that he disagreed that something was wrong with mesa's 1 in the first place.

Does it matter that the question was easy or hard? We can agree that it was important. And regardless of what Scott, or anyone else thinks, the data overwhelmingly proves that many skills do not work. So... what is next from DE in this regards?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

To be fair, the questions Rebecca posed were not easy. Any answer Steve or Scott provided would have required commitment. This is why they dodged. We the players wanted concrete answers. Regardless, I do not think it is debatable that a skill like Mesa 1 sucks. The Helminth puts spot light on this issue. And nerfing Helminth available skills is not going to solve this issue. Even if a skill like roar is nerfed to 1%, it is still better than Mesa 1. 

The question is what is next for terrible skills like Mesa 1? DE, can we get a timetable for when can we expect all frames to get a balance patch?

It was a stupid easy question. It’s “Should bad things be improved” and the answer should always be “yes”.

Scott couldn’t even muster a maybe.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

Still waiting for "Fixed a five year bug where Ballistic Battery was a full body cast"

[Drachnyn]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

1) so that was a reply quoting our discussion about the xoris and yet the xoris is never mentioned again. I've no idea what this "loot frame nerf" refers to tbh. And we can't in any way compare the xoris to the chroma wep. I'm sorry but we really can't. A Wep being bigger than intended compared to a Wep making multiple frames powers unintentionally more powerful? Theres an absolute clear winner for "which 1 breaks the game" there. The reason the skin was left was because it had no impact, the complete opposite of the xoris situation.

Loot frame nerf happened in jovian concord. All loot frame abilities were nerfed so you could only get a single extra drop from each enemy and that was sold as fix. The chroma deluxe example was to show that not everything has to be intentional to be good and xoris as statstick was weaker than other options, it just was more convenient. Shared murmur on lich attempt was also unintentional and although it was removed initially, they realized that it was a good thing and should be in the game.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

2) i call it balancing because thats what happened. Internal increases AND decreases to a power/wep until it feels like what the developers want for the game. Numbers and feedback coming from official internal QA Staff members over months. Nerfing something is simply a reduction after release. Think of it this way, how could anyone complain about something being "nerfed" if they've never tried it? Thats the separation. As for the question about how they'd have enough data to reduce powers but not increase? Thats easier to answer. They didn't announce Helminth on August 1st and then begin work on it on August 2nd. They would have started work on it months ago and had QA Playtest each power a month or 2 before TennoCon. All the data that would have taken months to gather was possible because they had months to gather it.

That again doesnt explain the lack of buffs. IF they had months to gather data for every power then they would have noticed how garbage some of them are, yet we have 6 nerfs and only 2 minor buffs to show for it.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

3) I wasn't referring to you, just pointing out the absolute garbage some have been spewing since TennoCon, dressing their ideas up as facts. You aren't saying there wont be reworks but with this thread you are trying to say there won't be buffs, which falls into the same category. I'm simply pointing out that theres no evidence at all for either.

But if they planned on doing that, wouldnt they just say that they'll continue looking into buffing weak abilities? Earlier after tennocon they said they would but so far we have very little to show for it, only well of life and airburst. There is lack of evidence is for buffing more abilities. 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

4) Optimism is easy when you realize its a choice, not something that falls on your lap. I've played a good few MMOs over the years and trust me when i say that if you think what DE does is enough to shake your confidence then you're better off not looking into any other MMOs. Ever. I also look back and see a ton of good choices amongst the bad.

I started playing FF14 and the devs there have been very reliable from what I've seen and heard. Frequent bugfixes dont inspire a lot of confidence anymore for me because DE's way of throwing out content at the bare minimum working level just invites endless bugs and not just to some obscure situations. The biggest offender was the necramech death sound bug that really hurt my ears because of how loud it was. A necramech dying is a scripted thing to happen in the deimos quest. Just from that I know they havent properly tested the critical path through the update on the build they ended up shipping.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

11 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Promised to deliver what Tennocon showed instead of waiting years: Happened

Not sure you've seen their history on that. Empyrean was extremely late. Duviri is way late. Deadlock was late. Like... technically everything but Deimos is late due to their schedule being pushed up due to being behind for so long. Deimos was only in time because they announced it in the end stages of development. Thought the same for Railjack, but we saw how long that took them (and then the sad product).

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

2 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

it just was more convenient.

YES. EXACTLY, and even if it was over performing as a stat stick for damage, they could just nerf the damage or the dispo. Instead, they remove the unique feature that made Xoris useful. It was a feature of convenience which proves that nothing is safe. We thought DE didn't like damage numbers being too high, but convenience seems to be an issue too. Its stats are outshined by every other Glaive. Adding it to the shelf of forgotten items due to nerfs due to new metas. Not like a new meta will be found or anything. Wonder what will be the next "Marked for nerf" from Steve. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Not sure you've seen their history on that. Empyrean was extremely late. Duviri is way late. Deadlock was late. Like... technically everything but Deimos is late due to their schedule being pushed up due to being behind for so long. Deimos was only in time because they announced it in the end stages of development. Thought the same for Railjack, but we saw how long that took them (and then the sad product).

I dont get it?

I stated DE promised that their goal for TennoCon and going forward was to start delivering on what they show/promise. Your reply is full of updates that dropped before TennoCon and before said promise was made? Its like me saying to my boss "i'm going to achieve X this year" and them saying "well that didn't happen in 2018". I'm confused. Can you clarify?

[(PSN)MYKK678]

4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

1) Loot frame nerf happened in jovian concord. All loot frame abilities were nerfed so you could only get a single extra drop from each enemy and that was sold as fix. The chroma deluxe example was to show that not everything has to be intentional to be good and xoris as statstick was weaker than other options, it just was more convenient. Shared murmur on lich attempt was also unintentional and although it was removed initially, they realized that it was a good thing and should be in the game.

2) That again doesnt explain the lack of buffs. IF they had months to gather data for every power then they would have noticed how garbage some of them are, yet we have 6 nerfs and only 2 minor buffs to show for it.

3) But if they planned on doing that, wouldnt they just say that they'll continue looking into buffing weak abilities? Earlier after tennocon they said they would but so far we have very little to show for it, only well of life and airburst. There is lack of evidence is for buffing more abilities. 

4) I started playing FF14 and the devs there have been very reliable from what I've seen and heard. Frequent bugfixes dont inspire a lot of confidence anymore for me because DE's way of throwing out content at the bare minimum working level just invites endless bugs and not just to some obscure situations. The biggest offender was the necramech death sound bug that really hurt my ears because of how loud it was. A necramech dying is a scripted thing to happen in the deimos quest. Just from that I know they havent properly tested the critical path through the update on the build they ended up shipping.

1) Unfortunately i'm not sure if i was around for this Jovian Accord (i think?). I'll just take your word on what went on. Although by your description it sounds like a change made due to Forum Feedback. Can't imagine people were happy with "being forced to get/buy Loot Frames in order to benefit like those who already had Loot Frames". Thats pure speculation though tbf, i've no info on it at all. As for xoris i gotta be honest here, if you think that bug was on-par or below other Stat-Stick builds you were using it wrong. Thats honestly not meant as an insult or meant to offend. It was just leaps and bounds beyond any Stat-Stick build. It was pure unadulterated game-breaking. We can definitely agree there are unintentional bugs DE leaves in, but that bit of info has no relevance to our discussion about the xoris tbh.

 

2) It kind of does but kind of doesn't so i can at least slightly agree on that. The "kind of does" comes from development in general. Reducing numbers for balance is always easier than increasing them in gaming. Its why so, so many games out there release things that are too powerful at launch. Its a hard scale to balance and only after gathering live data from thousands of people can a change be agreed on. Even QA Staff aren't 100% reliable as a metric as they cant test 100% of a game, its impossible for anyone. It also comes down to a standard tenet of any business; Priorities. An OP Wep/Power has to take priority over an underperforming one. One is game-breaking and the other is simply just annoying. Where the "kind of doesn't" comes in is I personally think underperforming powers should have gone through a balance-pass before Helminth, but that didn't happen. Just have to deal with what we got. Could have been Covid interrupting plans, a family emergency, a Tech Issue, Laziness, or simply that DE has figures that contradict the view of those powers usage. We'll never know. And tbh they don't owe that explanation at all.

 

3) They've said that exact sentence 1000 times on other Dev Streams. "We'll continue to monitor after launch" is usually the wording. Proven right by all changes made after each update launch. How many more times would you or anyone else like them to say it before you know its true? If they weren't monitoring anything then how is Xaku getting buffs? I'm not going to get back into the 2 powers you brought up, thats been explained twice now

 

4) You're going to need to go find a proper comparison tbh. FF14 is not a F2P MMO, never played it myself but i know it only lets you get so far and then its Sub Paywall drops hard. Thats revenue Warframe doesn't have access to and puts them in almost completely different MMO Brackets. Plus, you really really don't want to use FF14 as a comparison in general, trust me on this. Look into the history of the game. The only MMO i can think of that was handled worse, and not much worse, is Anthem. Although i never played it i'm a normal FF fan and kept hearing about it over the years.

[Drachnyn]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

1) Unfortunately i'm not sure if i was around for this Jovian Accord (i think?). I'll just take your word on what went on. Although by your description it sounds like a change made due to Forum Feedback. Can't imagine people were happy with "being forced to get/buy Loot Frames in order to benefit like those who already had Loot Frames". Thats pure speculation though tbf, i've no info on it at all. As for xoris i gotta be honest here, if you think that bug was on-par or below other Stat-Stick builds you were using it wrong. Thats honestly not meant as an insult or meant to offend. It was just leaps and bounds beyond any Stat-Stick build. It was pure unadulterated game-breaking. We can definitely agree there are unintentional bugs DE leaves in, but that bit of info has no relevance to our discussion about the xoris tbh.

Xoris was never the strongest option. For Khora any high dispo statstick with a riven beat it by miles (xoris launched with 0.5 dispo) and for baruuk venka prime gave you access to another combo counter stack with up to half a minute of combo duration or something like that. And then you could also go naramon. The lootframe nerf happened where they fixed some bug with the chesa kubrow but then decided to go all the way through and remove loot frame stacking entirely. Without improving general drop rates of course. All while still being called a fix. Only when they decided to introduce the mod drop chance booster with atlas prime and all warframe related social media going up in flames they brought it back. If you ever wondered why the mod drop chance booster isnt buyable in the market, that's why.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

2) It kind of does but kind of doesn't so i can at least slightly agree on that. The "kind of does" comes from development in general. Reducing numbers for balance is always easier than increasing them in gaming. Its why so, so many games out there release things that are too powerful at launch. Its a hard scale to balance and only after gathering live data from thousands of people can a change be agreed on. Even QA Staff aren't 100% reliable as a metric as they cant test 100% of a game, its impossible for anyone. It also comes down to a standard tenet of any business; Priorities. An OP Wep/Power has to take priority over an underperforming one. One is game-breaking and the other is simply just annoying. Where the "kind of doesn't" comes in is I personally think underperforming powers should have gone through a balance-pass before Helminth, but that didn't happen. Just have to deal with what we got. Could have been Covid interrupting plans, a family emergency, a Tech Issue, Laziness, or simply that DE has figures that contradict the view of those powers usage. We'll never know. And tbh they don't owe that explanation at all.

 

3) They've said that exact sentence 1000 times on other Dev Streams. "We'll continue to monitor after launch" is usually the wording. Proven right by all changes made after each update launch. How many more times would you or anyone else like them to say it before you know its true? If they weren't monitoring anything then how is Xaku getting buffs? I'm not going to get back into the 2 powers you brought up, thats been explained twice now

But when specifically asked about weak abilities that always get replaced we didnt even get a "We'll continue to monitor after launch". If they are doing that, then it would have been the easiest thing to say right there on stream.

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

4) You're going to need to go find a proper comparison tbh. FF14 is not a F2P MMO, never played it myself but i know it only lets you get so far and then its Sub Paywall drops hard. Thats revenue Warframe doesn't have access to and puts them in almost completely different MMO Brackets. Plus, you really really don't want to use FF14 as a comparison in general, trust me on this. Look into the history of the game. The only MMO i can think of that was handled worse, and not much worse, is Anthem. Although i never played it i'm a normal FF fan and kept hearing about it over the years.

I guess spiral knights could count then. I dropped that for a number of issues. However nothing what another f2p MMO does can be used as defense for DE, they are responsible for their own actions.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

I'm saying you can't trust their promises. They've broken them time and time again. All of those examples were promises not kept. I could name more, but I feel it's unnecessary. My point has been made. 

You're using this new promise as a reason to be optimistic? There is so much bad stuff going on at DE and you're going to say it's fine because they may be more forward at TennoCon next year? Sigh. I have little to no optimism as long as they have Steve on their team. Give the reigns to Pablo for the love of God. I know Scott is an issue, but the history of Steve ticks me off. 😧

Ok, thats your view and i respect it. I have the opposite view though. I inherently believe in second chances, an after theirs, to me anyway, they earned it. They didn't nerf Catchmoon to the ground which i still use from time to time, they didn't nerf Bramma to the ground which i still use from time to time, they were VERY transparent about both TennoCon 2020 and about how future updates like Duviri were pushed back to 2021 instead of just leaving everyone in the dark, they delivered everything i saw at TennoCon, the Twitch Drops messed up somehow and they decided to deliver them to everyone which was a choice not a mandate, they've taken on feedback about bugs and already launched hotfixes to address them, they've taken on feedback about Xaku and already have Round 1 buffs on the way. Trust me i'm not trying to tell you "you must think this way", opposing opinions matter, but as someone who's been given second chances i understand how important they can be and when they are wasted. I don't see them wasting it.

Theres a massive difference between broken promises and expecting changes to happen that dont. Neither you nor I have "The Solution" to all of Warframes issues so my fixes may not benefit you, and vice versa. Tbh theres a few things in the thread already that weren't even "promises". Its ok to feel let down if a change you want doesn't happen, but to me that isn't "a betrayal", its just something i either accept or have more patience with.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

10 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Xoris was never the strongest option. For Khora any high dispo statstick with a riven beat it by miles (xoris launched with 0.5 dispo) and for baruuk venka prime gave you access to another combo counter stack with up to half a minute of combo duration or something like that. And then you could also go naramon. The lootframe nerf happened where they fixed some bug with the chesa kubrow but then decided to go all the way through and remove loot frame stacking entirely. Without improving general drop rates of course. All while still being called a fix. Only when they decided to introduce the mod drop chance booster with atlas prime and all warframe related social media going up in flames they brought it back. If you ever wondered why the mod drop chance booster isnt buyable in the market, that's why.

But when specifically asked about weak abilities that always get replaced we didnt even get a "We'll continue to monitor after launch". If they are doing that, then it would have been the easiest thing to say right there on stream.

I guess spiral knights could count then. I dropped that for a number of issues. However nothing what another f2p MMO does can be used as defense for DE, they are responsible for their own actions.

I think at this point for our sanity the safe bet is for us to just agree to disagree, otherwise this could keep going for days. I'm not sure why bringing up Baruuk equiped with Venka Prime means he couldn't also be equipped with Xoris but i'll leave that there. Just how broken Xoris would have been is all over YouTube already, outside of personal testing. And i can't get into the whole "reading between the lines when someone doesn't say something" shtick. No matter how many ways its coloured, that still translates into "a very vague interpretation of a situation with no tangible evidence backing it up". Almost the antithesis of Fact. The same way it would be for me if i said it btw, this isn't some Holier-than-thou viewpoint.

If this is truly your viewpoint of the game then it sounds like you simply don't enjoy it, which begs the question of why continue playing and being disappointed. But thats not something i could answer. If all you see is the bad and that glass remains half empty then unless you decide to change something it'll continue being miserable. And i wouldn't wish that on anyone. The rest is up to you pal. Have a good Sunday anyway 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I'm gonna be honest. I felt betrayed watching the stream yesterday. And the continued silence outside of one stream every six weeks is becoming infuriating. Real world issues are real. I can't imagine what it's like to make a video game with hundreds of people working remotely. We have no idea when DE will be back in the office again, or even if they ever will. But my god, the way the high brass have been interpreting data lately is baffling.

I've worked in food my entire adult life, more or less. If one of the entrees just isn't moving, and the feedback from diners is "it's too salty," my reaction isn't to coat everything in salt, it's to pull the entree and remake it with less salt. Conversely, if something is moving quickly and the feedback is "I like how spicy it is," I'm not suddenly gonna slather hot sauce on the mashed potatoes. Some things, real talk, needed to be nerfed. M4D was bugged, and the bug needed to be fixed. But the ability was fine on launch. Equinox, Octavia, Kuva Ogris, etc exist. Kuva Bramma was literally the overwhelmingly popular weapon on its launch, and it was just infuriating to be around a carpet bomb every two seconds. I don't get how Scott and Steve can look at the data we saw and say that nothing is slated for a second look. Because I'm in dire need of a new hobby, I've got a running list of stuff that I would change, from monetization to abilities to cosmetics. A lot of my ability changes are by no means drastic. For example, Make Spectral Scream a blast matching your element. Nothing fancy, just instead of being a channel that does abysmal damage, just make it hit hard enough to be relevant at high level and apply a status or two. For Ember's Fireball, just get rid of the silly charging mechanic it has. Inaros' Sandstorm? Make it a cast at cursor duration based move. There are admitted a few, like Ballistic Battery, where as it is, even if you remove the damage cap, it just won't do anything of note. Loki's Decoy, as it's in the game, is functionally pointless. Any ability that fires a ray is fundamentally worse than a gun, like Xaku's Deny.

I think the one thing truly holding back the game right now is the game itself. You log in, you wanna play some WF now, what do you do? You click ESO or Hydron. You hang out until your bloodlust is satisfied, pop back to your ship to change your loadout, and you go back in. Maybe you do a rep farm for the open world you're still working on. Possibly you do some nightwave, if you're not already maxed out. No matter what you do though, you're stuck basically guarding an objective, murdering tons of enemies, or some combination of both. Spy is about the only real departure from this format, but if you have Ivara and ciphers, the mode is entirely trivialized. XandyPants' DriftFrame is one of the genuinely cool ideas for a soft PVP, and I'm shocked DE hasn't put it in the game. In fact, what would be cool would be a multi-cap mission, where you need to intercept escaping prisoners from TennoJail (TM) and get them back in. Kind of a reverse Defection, but actually fun. Bosses are almost completely trivial, basically being "wait to shoot the vulnerable part."

I haven't played it in almost a decade, but I did enjoy World of Warcraft, and kind of use it as a metric for online games. One of the reasons WoW has such memorable encounters was 1) the bosses were actually balanced to match the appropriate gear for their encounter, 2) the bosses actually did something other than shoot at you or hit you with a melee weapon. 3) The unique mechanics were actually something you had to worry about. Sargas Ruk can make fire jets pop up, but you can also go into the fight as Gauss and be immune to fire. 4) Outside of the dungeons, you had stuff to do. You literally had the entire world of Warcraft. Now, I get that WF is structured around nodes, but that still feels more like a temporary thing than a final design, despite seven years of game telling me otherwise. Every planet is basically one of every mission type (with repeats, maybe minus defection) with a boss "fight." You get some branching, but the end goal is... Actually, what is the end goal of Warframe? I mean, we love to say Fashion Frame is endgame, but really, what are we working towards. I remember at some point we were told we were fighting for the independence of the human space colonies, but has anyone met these colonists? Like, there are some in the Nidus mission, but we never actually go to the proper colonies. And story wise, when we clear a planet, nothing has changed. The boss is still alive, despite me watching them literally get split in half. I know I'm harping on him, but Sargas Ruk has been in several events despite me having obliterated him. 

Even with ability changes, we're already starved for things to use them on. The devs want to discourage room-nuking, but the only thing we have to do is nuke rooms. Interception is a decent gamemode, but it requires four players to be played optimally. ...So how do we fix it? Make it have more than four zones. Give me a massive map with eight zones to track, and turn off the zones based on player count. Give me a reason to use CC. If Vauban's most useful ability is supposed to be Bastille, make a scenario where I would want to throw a Bastille at the objective and run to the next area. If Chroma is surprisingly popular, why did you expect him to be less popular? Is it because his kit is basically two passives, a janky ultimate, and a literally empty slot effectively? Give me a reason to not have my abilities active all the time, or make them more engaging than "keep 2 and 3 active, press 4 if you need to go for a run or raise some cash." Xaku's really emblematic of the failed design ethos of 2020 (for Warframe specifically!) of "tons of crowd control." Xaku can lift enemies, disarm them, mind control them, make them frozen in time, have them glue bullets to them, and weave around their attacks (kind of). None of the abilities really have any kill potential, and Void damage is unique literally to Xaku. Not to mention having three abilities slapped onto one. Thus, the best partner for Xaku is Xaku. Yes, I know the Broken frame is getting worked on actively, but... hoo boy. It's a long road. I'm not against pure support frames. I've been running Trinity like crazy lately after the Energy Vampire buff. My main is Nezha. But there's no good reason to use Xaku over any other frame. There's no goal. And that's what the real problem is.

There is no goal. Even if everything is nerfed into the ground (which part of me is actually for), it's still a matter of grinding for the sake of grinding. Anyway, I think I've rambled for long enough. Thanks for making it through yet another one of my walls of text.

You can't just make chromas 1 a blast to "do damage relevant to high level"....what is even high level to you? This is why detail is important. What is relevant damage? If its gonna apply status it also clearly shouldn't take away half the health of a level 100 enemy in a single blast, as that's basically mini nuke. For example, Khoras 1 takes setup and build time. You actually can't just go to any "high level" and "do relevant damage" without putting some effort in. 

So a blast that applies status is a good idea, especially if it had some range to apply status to a group of enemies quickly.

Embers fireball mechanic is a charge that increases the damage and aoe of the fireball. Why would they let you just rapidly fire off 6 fireballs with massive damage and increased aoe? It's a mechanic that let's you basically choose to shoot smaller fireballs rapidly, or 1 larger fireball with better damage and wider aoe. I personally think the charged fireball should have its aoe increased to 5 meters because it's only 2.4 now or something.

Lokis decoy actually isn't pointless either, you're just clearly not capable of finding a use for it. Yea, it could use a rework like just staying alive based on a duration timer instead of having a flat small health pool.

And it's no ones fault you don't have anything to do when you log in. That's your choice and no one else's really. I choose to do more than "click ESO or Hydron" and  "hang out until your bloodlust is satisfied, pop back to your ship to change your loadout, and you go back in".  No one is making you play like that. If you already did everything in the game that's on you....

And thankfully, this game is in no way shape or form a version of WoW, so just drop that nostalgia because it's not relevant here. 

You actually can do more besides nuke rooms. You do have a reason to CC. Vauban is titled the CC king and there are many scenarios where he is used.... so the reasons are there. Maybe try adjusting your own playstyle and mindset towards the game, as you seem like you have no goals either. 

[Solarsyphon]

The usage stat issue is complicated because  it does have its use and should sometimes result in nerfs. There are really two reasons that something gets used allot. Fun or effectiveness and sometimes the effective options are profoundly unfun. Some examples would be like the old sound quake builds where you literally push 4 and leave it for ages.  The stats help identify things to look at and then its really a matter of interpretation which one it is. Now with M4D specifically long time players know that stealth modifiers in warframe have always been hella buggy and given inflated numbers when combined with AOEs. This has been consistently removed/fixed/ nerfed what ever you want to call it.  Seriously guys it was exceeding the amount of allocated memory for damage instances in the game, that is not ok.  That said M4D was excessively nerfed the combination of a health cap and a power strength cap made it the equivalent to something like smith which does consistent % damage but never kills.  That needs to be undone either by basing it off the damage that would have been dealt aka making it always do the maximum damage it would scale to or adding a base damage so it can kill weak enemies. 

As a side Issue stop complaining about nerfs being called fixs  because is stupid.  Balance fixes are a type of fix  and does the specific language here isnt really the issue its that some things after the change feel underwhelming and disappointing. It kills hype. 

[keikogi]

9 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

As a side Issue stop complaining about nerfs being called fixs  because is stupid.  Balance fixes are a type of fix  and does the specific language here isnt really the issue its that some things after the change feel underwhelming and disappointing. It kills hype. 

People dislike weasel words. If it nerf call it a nerf not a fix. 

 

11 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

Some examples would be like the old sound quake builds where you literally push 4 and leave it for ages.  The stats help identify things to look at and then its really a matter of interpretation which one it is. Now with M4D specifically long time players know that stealth modifiers in warframe have always been hella buggy and given inflated numbers when combined with AOEs. This has been consistently removed/fixed/ nerfed what ever you want to call it.  Seriously guys it was exceeding the amount of allocated memory for damage instances in the game, that is not ok. 

If they have always been buggy , well you know DE should have looked if they were buggy again before realising something that interacts with it. Its not like it is a recurring issue.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

On 2020-09-19 at 8:21 AM, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Do you think it would be responsible/right for them to implement major changes based on 1 week of information?

If the overwhelming majority of people are taking off Mesa 1 and if basically the only ability taken off Chroma is his 1, then yes. At the very least they could confidently say "Yes. We're looking into future changes."

Their response to the stats thus far is atrocious. It should be EXTREMELY alarming to see how much people dislike Mesa 1: Chroma 1 too. These stats are the best part of the Helminth. For me... I was looking forward to them finally having the stats so that there'd be no reason for them to ignore the problems that all the players knew already existed. If they choose to ignore these stats and act like they don't exist, they deserve to go under. For a company that claims to listen to its players, they have a funny habit of not listening. If they make changes soon, it still doesn't Cleanse them of their lack of listening in the past about these garbage abilities. 

[Electropuncher]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You can't just make chromas 1 a blast to "do damage relevant to high level"....what is even high level to you? This is why detail is important. What is relevant damage? If its gonna apply status it also clearly shouldn't take away half the health of a level 100 enemy in a single blast, as that's basically mini nuke. For example, Khoras 1 takes setup and build time. You actually can't just go to any "high level" and "do relevant damage" without putting some effort in. 

So a blast that applies status is a good idea, especially if it had some range to apply status to a group of enemies quickly.

Embers fireball mechanic is a charge that increases the damage and aoe of the fireball. Why would they let you just rapidly fire off 6 fireballs with massive damage and increased aoe? It's a mechanic that let's you basically choose to shoot smaller fireballs rapidly, or 1 larger fireball with better damage and wider aoe. I personally think the charged fireball should have its aoe increased to 5 meters because it's only 2.4 now or something.

Lokis decoy actually isn't pointless either, you're just clearly not capable of finding a use for it. Yea, it could use a rework like just staying alive based on a duration timer instead of having a flat small health pool.

And it's no ones fault you don't have anything to do when you log in. That's your choice and no one else's really. I choose to do more than "click ESO or Hydron" and  "hang out until your bloodlust is satisfied, pop back to your ship to change your loadout, and you go back in".  No one is making you play like that. If you already did everything in the game that's on you....

And thankfully, this game is in no way shape or form a version of WoW, so just drop that nostalgia because it's not relevant here. 

You actually can do more besides nuke rooms. You do have a reason to CC. Vauban is titled the CC king and there are many scenarios where he is used.... so the reasons are there. Maybe try adjusting your own playstyle and mindset towards the game, as you seem like you have no goals either. 

Hey, I'm using broad brushes here. I'm not getting paid to make the game, so I'm not going to put in "pay me" effort. :P

Khora's 1 does not take setup with a decent weapon. And the effort is "hit 1 to build up your combo." While WF shies away from cooldowns (except on Rebuild Shields and Volt's 1 for some odd reason), Either a longer cast for a greater effect or just popping off tons of fireballs, yeah, sure. I have no problem with that.

Okay, how about this, as you charge Fireball, you hold it in front of you, and it gathers fire. The longer you hold, the more AoE it does. The tradeoff is that you aren't doing anything while you're charging it.

You're right. I'm not capable of finding a use for Loki's decoy. Because outside of some jank, it literally doesn't have one. The way aggro actually works in this game means that your decoy may grab the attention of one or two of your enemies, and then he's down. Your changes are fine, but if he ran around like an idiot, I think that would be even better. I also would like Loki to have a true offensive ability, but that's just spitballing at this point.

As for the rest, some background. See the (NSW) next to my name? Yep. I play on the thing that also has Smash Bros. You're right, no one is forcing me to do anything. But no one is doing anything except what I listed, so if I want to group up, that's pretty much what I got. Yeah, I guess you're right I did everything I really NEEDED to do. But I did just start a fresh clan after some... events, and that's something that I'm kind of poking in on. I'm only limited by my forma.

I think you're missing my point. Yes, you can do more than nuke rooms. You can cast several Blood Altars around chokepoints as Garuda and make infinite health for you and your allies. You can coat interception with Snow Globes. You could, in fact, just fling Bastilles just flippin' ERRYWHERE as Vauban. You can. ...Or you can just take a Saryn with a max range Miasma or even a Vauban flinging Flechette Orbs ERRYWHERE or even Banshee spamming Sonar and hittin' 'em with that phat Resonance Quake beat and get the same job done without having to worry about killing the crowd controlled enemies, because *ahem* dead guys don't shoot. Yes, I enjoy finding fun combos. Right now I'm digging Baruuk because 1) finding a decent color scheme on him is a challenge unto itself (monochrome works best) and 2) he's the closest to a fighting game character. Just wish the melee was more than "mash A, maybe hold ZL." 

As for WoW, notice how I stopped playing. Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean my point is invalid. Good game design is good game design is good game design. You cannot tell me that Warframe's bosses are well designed or memorable. Every fight literally boils down to "hit them until they go invincible, avoid the counterattack, repeat," or "shoot the glowing spot," and usually a mix of the two. As far as I know, Jordas Golem literally has no attacks and it's basically "follow the weird ship monster and shoot it in the engines." Hell, at GDQ, the runner literally one-shot it with a Velocitus (painfully underrated weapon). While I'm on that topic, the GDQ boss "showcase" really was one of the worst ways to get WF publicity, and the chat on the stream showed it. I don't know if the VOD is still up, but what I gleaned was less than positive. Especially when the hardest boss in the showcase was apparently Sergeant.

Off topic: if DE released an Attack Pack (90s toys by Mattel. Think Matchbox meets HR Geiger) of Jordas Golem, I'd buy it. Especially if it was like a foot long.

Look, my point is that yes, WF is a sandbox with infinite breadth, but it's maybe an inch deep. Generally speaking, once you figure out how to mod optimally, you either build on its strengths or just go full Dayren and make a max fire-rate Peculiar Bloom Amprex (please do not do this). Frames have a bit more nuance, but it's always going to be "figure out your favorite ability or combo and boost the stats that make that good while making you not die." When you have an ability slot that's almost useless (I knew I could get back on topic!), the dev team's response shouldn't be "how do we make the rest of their kit worse." I know Scott's joking when he says "Remove Mesa." At least... I hope he's joking, because look at Itzal. Apparently when your whole gimmick is "push button for yeet," taking that away and putting it on everything sort of invalidates your niche.

Do some things need a nerf? No. Almost everything needs a nerf. Players and enemies alike. Feature creep and power bloat have been a pervasive problem for a long time, and The Great Ensmallening should refer to more than a compression technique on textures shrinking the filesize of the game. Though that's still pretty cool. When I first started playing in 2013, the game was SO different (god I miss not knowing about how Warframes actually work or who the Lotus actually is). Of course new things are gonna sneak in. The Soma alone broke the game when it was released. I tried getting some friends into the game with me, but it was hard for them to enjoy the game when I'd enter a room and set everything on fire, ice, electricity, and toxins at the same time through 2m of wall (Status 1.0 had problems) and have a 125% crit chance, just because I had a few extra hours of free time a week. Mercifully, Soma got nerfed WAY down from that. Now when I run newbies, I find myself literally standing by and watching like a driver's ed instructor with their foot over the brakes at all times or just being a still-helpful troll. 

And I'm gonna make you put your money where your mouth is, Madurai. What should I work on? I have every frame, I have just about every weapon I could possibly want, I'm slowly but surely building up my dojo, and I just hit Nightwave rank 69. When I log-in I don't exactly feel listless, but maybe you have some offbeat ideas for me. I'm open to suggestion!

[ShortCat]

From the very moment Helminth was announced, it was pretty obvious (at least to me) it will put all Frame kits under the microscope: "most infused" abilities will showcase what is important/desired, "most repalced" abilities will showcase exsisting & real deficits.
Now DE put themselves between a rock and a hardplace (again), since Helminth draws all the attention to problems, which have been discussed for ages. Showing those graphs was not wise on their part, since it verifies they have necessary data and mentioned problems are very much real. Now, if DE does not act, they will appear inept or dismissive. If they act and do wrong, it will appear inept.

 

On 2020-09-19 at 10:25 PM, Duality52 said:

Devstream from Home 6 demonstrates the disconnect between the devteam (particularly Scott and Steve) and the community. Rebecca voices our concerns and feedback as best as she can, only to be dismissed as a joke or rarely a rebuttal.

Feels like they're becoming what Mother caused the Entrati to be so splintered: refusing to acknowledge their own mistakes and pride for the better.

Wise words.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

If the overwhelming majority of people are taking off Mesa 1 and if basically the only ability taken off Chroma is his 1, then yes. At the very least they could confidently say "Yes. We're looking into future changes."

Their response to the stats thus far is atrocious. It should be EXTREMELY alarming to see how much people dislike Mesa 1: Chroma 1 too. These stats are the best part of the Helminth. For me... I was looking forward to them finally having the stats so that there'd be no reason for them to ignore the problems that all the players knew already existed. If they choose to ignore these stats and act like they don't exist, they deserve to go under. For a company that claims to listen to its players, they have a funny habit of not listening. If they make changes soon, it still doesn't Cleanse them of their lack of listening in the past about these garbage abilities. 

So then you'd be comfortable with Xaku's Round 2 buffs being based on 1 week of stats as opposed to 1 or 2 months of true data? The point you missed is that basing any big change on 1 week of stats is not only irresponsible and amateur, but is a slippery slope towards those kinds of metrics dictating future changes. If you really, really think about it for a second, you don't want that to happen. Theres no double standard here, theres a set timeframe for every company to collect required data.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

So then you'd be comfortable with Xaku's Round 2 buffs being based on 1 week of stats as opposed to 1 or 2 months of true data? The point you missed is that basing any big change on 1 week of stats is not only irresponsible and amateur, but is a slippery slope towards those kinds of metrics dictating future changes. If you really, really think about it for a second, you don't want that to happen. Theres no double standard here, theres a set timeframe for every company to collect required data.

Heck their round one changes are being based on a 6 forma build, so why not base round 2 on a week of data 🤣

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

The moment they announced Helminth I stated that this was going to be used as an excuse to do even less reworks.

I hoped I was wrong, but it looks like this could be confirmation. My cursor is moving ever closer to pressing uninstall. Not that my input has ever really mattered, but when my PS4 finally takes it's final breath I'm done whether I want to be or not.

I just looked at that list, and several of the ones on there are 4th abilities. Some frames have half of their abilities on this list. This is not ok.

[keikogi]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

he moment they announced Helminth I stated that this was going to be used as an excuse to do even less reworks.

The good old "you can fix that with X mod " will also become you can replace that skill with roar. 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

ust looked at that list, and several of the ones on there are 4th abilities. Some frames have half of their abilities on this list. This is not ok.

We only have 4 skills in warframe if one of them sucks it is reason enought for a rework. 

[Teoarrk]

26 minutes ago, keikogi said:

We only have 4 skills in warframe if one of them sucks it is reason enought for a rework. 

Nah fam, just make a resource sink system that allows players to 'fix' Warframes with the abilities of others.

Edit: sorry for being so reductive. I just dislike that the Helminth is a thinly veiled attempt at warding off calls to rework the non-meta Warframes since there are so many.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

26 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The good old "you can fix that with X mod " will also become you can replace that skill with roar. 

Yep, the longtime trend, just escalating to a new level.

26 minutes ago, keikogi said:

We only have 4 skills in warframe if one of them sucks it is reason enought for a rework. 

No argument there. I was just pointing that out since the 4th is supposed to be the pinnacle of a frame's capability yet some are so bad that you're better off replacing it with a non-4th. That's pretty bad. And the fact that several frames have multiple abilities that are so bad people are replacing them at that rate attempting to make them more useable and yet DE doesn't think that is some sort of indication that they need work. Helminth can't even fix that issue on the frames with multiple bad abilities because you can only replace one so the bad ones remaining will just keep being unused and unfixed. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Heck their round one changes are being based on a 6 forma build, so why not base round 2 on a week of data 🤣

Because 1 week of data could easily point towards a nerf instead of a buff.

Thinking 1 week of data would be enough to judge what changes are truly needed is akin to thinking that a manager should base someones job probationary period on their 1st week of results.

[Drachnyn]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb (PS4)MYKK678:

Because 1 week of data could easily point towards a nerf instead of a buff.

Thinking 1 week of data would be enough to judge what changes are truly needed is akin to thinking that a manager should base someones job probationary period on their 1st week of results.

But that would mean that this is the first time they've ever noticed that no one uses those abilities. Because if that's true then it's also part of the issue of only looking at usage for nerfs.