Were my concerns justified? (Helminth System = less frequent / substantial reworks???)

[Gashabae]

In a previous topic I brought up my concerns about how the Helminth system would affect future reworks and/or kit designs. In response someone mentioned the possibility that DE might collect the data from Helminth usage, which they actually did do, and use it as a reference to rework abilities. Considering the recent comments made during the at home dev stream I'm not really sure what to think. Now I do not think the data was necessary since most players can already tell a good ability from a bad one but the data has already been aggregated so why is there even a question as to whether or not to use it?

I used Mesa's 1st ability as an example in the previous topic which appears to be more relevant now that we know it's not a subsumable ability and is the most replaced ability.

Thoughts?

[Berzerkules]

I'm not sure that most players know what a good ability is after seeing Wisp's 2 ranked before her 4. 

Wil-o-Wisp is pretty much a built in rolling guard that grants invisibility, it also casts breach surge for more aoe coverage or be used as a mobility ability. I shouldn't be surprised since most people just build for her 1 and don't actually use or understand her entire kit. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No, they weren't, it's too early to tell what's gonna happen. 

And I don't think most players do know a good ability from a bad one, either, as evidenced by the lack of knowledge about the the simplest mechanics and affinity to only really like an ability if it does "omg cool damages". 

 

[trst]

So exactly what evidence is there that they won't make more reworks because of Helminth?

And of course they're collecting data on it, they have and collect data on everything in the game. All that matters is how they use and act on it which we've yet to see regarding this data. What can be expected however is them making adjustments on the most frequently added abilities should they be pushing out other options like why the old Catchmoon nerf happened which was also guided by collected data.

[BRZZAFK]

Didnt they say Valkyr will be the next to rework? How long since then? Like 9 months? They must be really struggle to come up with how to fix her.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

Didnt they say Valkyr will be the next to rework? How long since then? Like 9 months? They must be really struggle to come up with how to fix her.

..or they just forgot, because they were busy with Xaku, and with him being the newer frame that people are trying, he was always gonna get fixed before Valkyr, a frame which is far less popular.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that DE would prefer to "band-Aid" bad frames with the Helminth system, as it's what I too was afraid of. however, it seems they have also used some common sense and begun using data from helminth to visualize which powers are the least used and/or most commonly replaced, which could help to influence future reworks. if they really put their minds to it, Helminth could be used to tell them EXACTLY what we think of each frame and each power in a way that might be easier for them to understand than droves of us giving our different opinions: I've never been a lover of graphs, but the great thing about numbers, is that numbers cannot lie (well, not by themselves)

one of the things that keeps bothering me though is that their jokes about more nerfs and saying "good luck Pablo!" like it's his job to carry the game for them.. is only a half-joke: it's true that they (Scott and Steve) would be much happier to just let someone else do their work for them, and that's not really a healthy attitude IMO. what they should be saying is "we need to do better", preferably followed by "this is HOW we're going to try and do better". now ask yourself, when was the last time you heard someone at DE say that? has it ever been said at all?

I think ultimately we won't know for sure whether Helminth is a help or a hindrance regarding reworks until we actually get another rework for an older frame. IIRC Nyx was supposed to be next on the chopping block, but whoever it is, DE need to either ask their playerbase or look at the Helminth Data to have some idea of what people want before they start moving stuff around.

TL;DR: let's wait and see what happens, DE aren't inspiring confidence in me at the moment, but they have turned things around in the past. the next frame rework will be important.

[Gashabae]

52 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I'm not sure that most players know what a good ability is after seeing Wisp's 2 ranked before her 4. 

Wil-o-Wisp is pretty much a built in rolling guard that grants invisibility, it also casts breach surge for more aoe coverage or be used as a mobility ability. I shouldn't be surprised since most people just build for her 1 and don't actually use or understand her entire kit. 

Ok I guess I misspoke, but if anything that just goes to show how useless the data could be (just for a different reason). Maybe that's why they said they aren't going to use it? Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

No, they weren't, it's too early to tell what's gonna happen. 

And I don't think most players do know a good ability from a bad one, either, as evidenced by the lack of knowledge about the the simplest mechanics and affinity to only really like an ability if it does "omg cool damages". 

That's why I'm a bit conflicted. I was genuinely ready to admit that I was wrong when they were showing off all the data they collected but then all of a sudden they start dodging a really simple question of, "Will the data be used to determine future reworks?".

Yeah, maybe I'm just assuming the vocal majority knows what they are talking about but given the data are based off of the actual majority (vocal or not) the data may be even worse.

31 minutes ago, trst said:

So exactly what evidence is there that they won't make more reworks because of Helminth?

And of course they're collecting data on it, they have and collect data on everything in the game. All that matters is how they use and act on it which we've yet to see regarding this data. What can be expected however is them making adjustments on the most frequently added abilities should they be pushing out other options like why the old Catchmoon nerf happened which was also guided by collected data.

None. Them showing off the data and the difficult time they had answering the question of whether the data would be used for future reworks or not just seemed a bit suspect. I'm willing to wait and see so here's hoping that the data, at the very least, brings attention to certain abilities that are in need of help.

22 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Didnt they say Valkyr will be the next to rework? How long since then? Like 9 months? They must be really struggle to come up with how to fix her.

Honestly couldn't remember if I tried. 

[Gashabae]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that DE would prefer to "band-Aid" bad frames with the Helminth system, as it's what I too was afraid of. however, it seems they have also used some common sense and begun using data from helminth to visualize which powers are the least used and/or most commonly replaced, which could help to influence future reworks. if they really put their minds to it, Helminth could be used to tell them EXACTLY what we think of each frame and each power in a way that might be easier for them to understand than droves of us giving our different opinions: I've never been a lover of graphs, but the great thing about numbers, is that numbers cannot lie (well, not by themselves)

one of the things that keeps bothering me though is that their jokes about more nerfs and saying "good luck Pablo!" like it's his job to carry the game for them.. is only a half-joke: it's true that they (Scott and Steve) would be much happier to just let someone else do their work for them, and that's not really a healthy attitude IMO. what they should be saying is "we need to do better", preferably followed by "this is HOW we're going to try and do better". now ask yourself, when was the last time you heard someone at DE say that? has it ever been said at all?

I think ultimately we won't know for sure whether Helminth is a help or a hindrance regarding reworks until we actually get another rework for an older frame. IIRC Nyx was supposed to be next on the chopping block, but whoever it is, DE need to either ask their playerbase or look at the Helminth Data to have some idea of what people want before they start moving stuff around.

TL;DR: let's wait and see what happens, DE aren't inspiring confidence in me at the moment, but they have turned things around in the past. the next frame rework will be important.

I'm in the same boat. I really hope they actually reach out to the community in some form when it comes to reworking a frame... or just give it to Pablo, either is fine.

[SneakyErvin]

Waaay too early to tell how it will turn out.

Come back in a year and we can compare to previous years.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)robotwars7:

DE need to either ask their playerbase or look at the Helminth Data to have some idea of what people want before they start moving stuff around.

I don't think asking "the playerbase" is something they need to do. I don't think the playerbase is homogenous enough that there is anything the playerbase could be meaningfully said to want out of a rework,  I don't think what the playerbase wants would necessarily be a good idea, and I don't even think there's a way to ask the actual playerbase and actually get a representative feedback from the playerbase and not just the opinion of the kinds of people who hang around on these forums.

[Tiltskillet]

14 hours ago, Gashabae said:

Thoughts?

I think they already had data on ability usage.  I can maybe see some extra benefit to looking at the Helminth data, but it seems to me it's more likely to muddy the waters.

[Gravitus123]

It literally just came out most people havent even maxed helminth yet.And theyve already been buffing xaku and besides full on warframe reworks were already rare we usually get maybe 1 new power and some buffs or synergies i cant even remember the last time we got a full kit overhaul

[Teridax68]

I think whatever DE said about the system informing reworks was likely just fluff, as it's rather easy to tell which abilities are bad already, and DE could already have collected data on how frequently each ability gets used in order to spot outliers, like Mesa's 1. Moreover, I think one of the unfortunate side effects of the Helminth system is that it merely adds an argument against reworking kits: if one points out that a warframe has a terrible ability that needs a rework, others can now just as easily reply that one could just replace it with another, even though that wouldn't actually address the underlying problem. The Helminth system overall I think is mostly a band-aid to dead abilities on kits, much like augments before it, and in addition to power creeping the game even further, it's likely only made it harder to evaluate the balance and design of frames going forward, as frames now have to be evaluated along more than one single configuration of abilities.