Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

Okay so first off, i never put marked for death on a single warframe. I just dont get it. And i dont personally care if it exists or not. 

I just dont understand the logic behind it. Release it in a way that allows you to nuke enemies and then nerf it into the ground because it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. 

I guess you could argue the interaction with arcane trickery was OP but... you can put cloak arrow on saryn, sit on it, and nuke all of creation until you run out of pizzas. Or better yet zenurik, which of course, you want run out of. I feel like it would have made more sense to reduce its range, cap the number of enemies it can affect, and change the interaction with trickery. Something like that. But whatever. 

At this point im concerned about the helminth system. It seems like DE is steadfastly opposed to making the "trash"* abilities worth using and removing things from the list of "good" abilities is just going to make the system less appealing to me overall.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I'm guessing MfD had too much of a difference in usage stats in comparison with other subsumed abilities, while Saryn may not have such a skewed usage statistic when compared to other frames.

I don't know, nor do I defend this way of doing things (it should be more fluid rather than pure math based, if it isn't), but if DE really does it purely based on usage statistics that's the only idea I get. Still, not everything is as it seem, and we have no way to check the truth.

[Reidenshi]

Yeah, same question here.

[Xaero]

Just now, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I'm guessing MfD had too much of a difference in usage stats in comparison with other subsumed abilities

Honestly, I've never seen anyone using it at all, and I've played a lot since the update. Most people likely haven't even unlocked it yet, so I don't think the nerf had something to do with popularity.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

19 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Honestly, I've never seen anyone using it at all, and I've played a lot since the update. Most people likely haven't even unlocked it yet, so I don't think the nerf had something to do with popularity.

I agree, haven't seen it even once. Even now that consoles don't have the nerf, afaik. Which makes the logic very strange. But on the stream statistics DE_Rebb showed it was the most popular ability, even if it didn't have a huge difference in regards to other abilities. And by that logic Roar also has a second nerf coming its way, since it's still the most popular subsumed ability despite the hit it already took.

Go figure the whole thing.

[Drachnyn]

Marked for death was the 8th most infused ability. The second least infused helminth ability after expedite suffering and less infused than roar. The helminth abilities being so far ahead (especially the first few you get) makes sense because you dont need to pay any subsume costs to unlock them with helminth companion being used to quickly level it. This wasnt even a case where something was used "too much". From the devstream we know that a part of the balance team is on vacation right now, so it seems really out of place to make such an impactful decision right now.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Sayrn takes time to kill. Mark for death could nuke instantly for cheap, energy wise. The community rightly or wrongy demanded that DE to remove OP nuking abilities as much as possible. Ash was a prime example of that.

[o0Despair0o]

Why do people keep wanting to kill Saryn? Can't we even have one good, fun  frame these days?

You people are forgetting the fact that the spore+miasma nuke only really works in defense and survival. In any other mode, you don't spend more than a couple seconds in one area. You can't build up enough damage.

 

Look, the way I see it, the reason is that M4D is literally broken right from the start. Saryn is intended to be effective against hordes.

[Gravitus123]

Jesus this whole year has just been one disaster after another.Now the marked for death "bugfix" was fine it shouldnt have been double dipping on mods but there was no need to cap it at 75% and if there was a bug that should have been stated right away so people didnt waste resources.(why is bile still such a pain to get cmon like add a more common resource into the pool or something)

Saryn is still fine the people who constantly *@##$ how she is overpowered never play above lvl 30-40 content she requires a large amount of enemies and setup to even work which is why you basically only see her in a few modes like eso or defense.If you want to *@##$ about how she nukes rooms id say mesa is a bigger offender then saryn

[0_The_F00l]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I agree, haven't seen it even once. Even now that consoles don't have the nerf, afaik. Which makes the logic very strange. But on the stream statistics DE_Rebb showed it was the most popular ability, even if it didn't have a huge difference in regards to other abilities. And by that logic Roar also has a second nerf coming its way, since it's still the most popular subsumed ability despite the hit it already took.

Go figure the whole thing.

I think we saw different streams or you misunderstood the representation.

M4D is one of the least infused HELMINTH abilities - Helminth abilities by their nature being easily accessible are the most infused abilities just to rank up helminth or experiment with and are not an inidcator of usefulness.

Empower was the most infused in that regard cause its acquired very early.

I honestly have no idea what they based the nerf of , but i suspect it is cause they saw the abuse of that ability in a relatively controlled environment that would not be common in most of the gameplay.

Nerfing an ability cause of an exceptional use case that requires extremely niche builds in solo - talk about overzealous actions.

[Hardwood]

I'm glad that everyone hates Saryn, as long as they are distracted I will continue to nuke everything easier and harder with Mirage.

Even if they do nerf Saryn the fun police will likely come for Volt and Equinox next.

[DrivaMain]

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I honestly have no idea what they based the nerf of , but i suspect it is cause they saw the abuse of that ability in a relatively controlled environment that would not be common in most of the gameplay.

One noun. Content creators.

These people are very influential. They say 1 statement and people (mostly) blindly follow, it seems DE is affected by the influence as well and using them as balancing consideration. These people shed a spotlight on some tactic, combos ,etc and the people flock in causing usage rate to spike significantly, which means a red flag for DE.

[Tsoe]

its me or they said it will be buffed/reworked next week?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think we saw different streams or you misunderstood the representation.

M4D is one of the least infused HELMINTH abilities - Helminth abilities by their nature being easily accessible are the most infused abilities just to rank up helminth or experiment with and are not an inidcator of usefulness.

Empower was the most infused in that regard cause its acquired very early.

I honestly have no idea what they based the nerf of , but i suspect it is cause they saw the abuse of that ability in a relatively controlled environment that would not be common in most of the gameplay.

Nerfing an ability cause of an exceptional use case that requires extremely niche builds in solo - talk about overzealous actions.

Yeah, I did confuse it for empower, since I basically ignored any dps abilities like Roar and focused more on QoL and survivability. Maybe it was based on how easy an access to nuking it provided indeed. 

Still, I find the system to be too young to make these kind of changes so soon. Which is why apparently MfD will have to be reviewed a second time already. Perhaps DE is jumping the gun too quick these days. Perhaps it's a side effect of long distance meetings due to the pandemic. I have no clue tbh.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I agree, haven't seen it even once. Even now that consoles don't have the nerf, afaik. Which makes the logic very strange. But on the stream statistics DE_Rebb showed it was the most popular ability, even if it didn't have a huge difference in regards to other abilities. And by that logic Roar also has a second nerf coming its way, since it's still the most popular subsumed ability despite the hit it already took.

Go figure the whole thing.

I dont understand why make any decision now with the balance team on vacation. I also really hate the "meh" on the topic of making any of the "trash" abilities worth using.

26 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Marked for death was the 8th most infused ability. The second least infused helminth ability after expedite suffering and less infused than roar. The helminth abilities being so far ahead (especially the first few you get) makes sense because you dont need to pay any subsume costs to unlock them with helminth companion being used to quickly level it. This wasnt even a case where something was used "too much". From the devstream we know that a part of the balance team is on vacation right now, so it seems really out of place to make such an impactful decision right now.

Ive been playing a lot since the update dropped and not once have i seen it used. 

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Sayrn takes time to kill. Mark for death could nuke instantly for cheap, energy wise. The community rightly or wrongy demanded that DE to remove OP nuking abilities as much as possible. Ash was a prime example of that.

Saryn takes a negligible amount of time to kill in my opinion.

10 minutes ago, Gravitus123 said:

Jesus this whole year has just been one disaster after another.Now the marked for death "bugfix" was fine it shouldnt have been double dipping on mods but there was no need to cap it at 75% and if there was a bug that should have been stated right away so people didnt waste resources.(why is bile still such a pain to get cmon like add a more common resource into the pool or something)

Saryn is still fine the people who constantly *@##$ how she is overpowered never play above lvl 30-40 content she requires a large amount of enemies and setup to even work which is why you basically only see her in a few modes like eso or defense.If you want to *@##$ about how she nukes rooms id say mesa is a bigger offender then saryn

A) i dont have a problem with saryn. I dont have a problem with "op" frames. I just dont understand why marked for death was OP but saryn is allowed to exist. Its inconsistent. 2) if your saryn build cant nuke anything abovr level 40 your build needs work.

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I think we saw different streams or you misunderstood the representation.

M4D is one of the least infused HELMINTH abilities - Helminth abilities by their nature being easily accessible are the most infused abilities just to rank up helminth or experiment with and are not an inidcator of usefulness.

Empower was the most infused in that regard cause its acquired very early.

I honestly have no idea what they based the nerf of , but i suspect it is cause they saw the abuse of that ability in a relatively controlled environment that would not be common in most of the gameplay.

Nerfing an ability cause of an exceptional use case that requires extremely niche builds in solo - talk about overzealous actions.

I feel like the only thing they really needed to do was tweak mod double stacking, trickery, and maybe finisher damage. Not all they did.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Weak logic, so I'll try to correct that for you.

The keyword there that you used is "run out of pizzas".

If you think a nuke is worth tens of thousands of nano spores and polymer bundles that you have to refarm constantly, you're incredibly lazy and/or plat rich to basically keep buying resource boosters solely to use one nuke playstyle. That playstyle clearly has a massive drawback and isn't sustainable.

If you're not good at math, I can tell you Zenurik dash wouldn't keep up with spamming you have to use pizzas with as well. Zenurik dash is a very slow drip of energy. A pizza is 100 every 7 seconds and you can spam them, once again, at a major cost.

Spreading spores is Saryns thing. Get over it. It's one real nuke frame. 1 out of possibly 3 out of 44 frames. You might as well be jealous that every frame doesn't have invisibility and stealth mechanics.

Saryn can't be used for all content and casual players die with her constantly.

 

[akots]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

... just dont understand the logic behind it. Release it in a way that allows you to nuke enemies and then nerf it into the ground because it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. ...

Saryn is still OK but not as good as some other frames on Steel Path. I soloed a simple Hydron defense yesterday and barely managed to get out alive after 5 waves with a build that can pretty much solo nuke 8 waves of ESO without breaking a sweat. At some point I got 4K spore count. They did eventually die but it took quite some time and was not very pretty. Whereas MFD was indeed an instant nuke.

IDK about everyone but I actually want to play the game and not press 3 times the magic I-win-now button and go home with some new operator pants. It does not make me happy for some reason. IMHO, DE should constantly balance things as they evolve. However, mileage varies, depends on what you want I guess.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, akots said:

Saryn is still OK but not as good as some other frames on Steel Path. I soloed a simple Hydron defense yesterday and barely managed to get out alive after 5 waves with a build that can pretty much solo nuke 8 waves of ESO without breaking a sweat. At some point I got 4K spore count. They did eventually die but it took quite some time and was not very pretty. Whereas MFD was indeed an instant nuke.

IDK about everyone but I actually want to play the game and not press 3 times the magic I-win-now button and go home with some new operator pants. It does not make me happy for some reason. IMHO, DE should constantly balance things as they evolve. However, mileage varies, depends on what you want I guess.

Yea exactly.

[XenMaster]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Okay so first off, i never put marked for death on a single warframe. I just dont get it. And i dont personally care if it exists or not. 

I just dont understand the logic behind it. Release it in a way that allows you to nuke enemies and then nerf it into the ground because it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. 

I guess you could argue the interaction with arcane trickery was OP but... you can put cloak arrow on saryn, sit on it, and nuke all of creation until you run out of pizzas. Or better yet zenurik, which of course, you want run out of. I feel like it would have made more sense to reduce its range, cap the number of enemies it can affect, and change the interaction with trickery. Something like that. But whatever. 

At this point im concerned about the helminth system. It seems like DE is steadfastly opposed to making the "trash"* abilities worth using and removing things from the list of "good" abilities is just going to make the system less appealing to me overall.

whats worst is that Nyx's Mind Control is still so bad, i replaced it with Saryn's Molt for self healing.

[Gravitus123]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont understand why make any decision now with the balance team on vacation. I also really hate the "meh" on the topic of making any of the "trash" abilities worth using.

Ive been playing a lot since the update dropped and not once have i seen it used. 

Saryn takes a negligible amount of time to kill in my opinion.

A) i dont have a problem with saryn. I dont have a problem with "op" frames. I just dont understand why marked for death was OP but saryn is allowed to exist. Its inconsistent. 2) if your saryn build cant nuke anything abovr level 40 your build needs work.

I feel like the only thing they really needed to do was tweak mod double stacking, trickery, and maybe finisher damage. Not all they did.

My build is fine but saryn is nowhere near as powerful as people say she is sure she is amazing in certain conditions but nowhere near overpowered.Im guessing the marked for death issue was just that it was super cheap just get any melee weapon press 1 do a finisher and nuke everything you can see but they went too far with the nerf.I mean marked for death still kinda works but you have to use heavy attacks now but i feel a better idea would have just been to increase the energy cost and maybe lower the range 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Okay so first off, i never put marked for death on a single warframe. I just dont get it. And i dont personally care if it exists or not. 

I just dont understand the logic behind it. Release it in a way that allows you to nuke enemies and then nerf it into the ground because it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. 

I guess you could argue the interaction with arcane trickery was OP but... you can put cloak arrow on saryn, sit on it, and nuke all of creation until you run out of pizzas. Or better yet zenurik, which of course, you want run out of. I feel like it would have made more sense to reduce its range, cap the number of enemies it can affect, and change the interaction with trickery. Something like that. But whatever. 

At this point im concerned about the helminth system. It seems like DE is steadfastly opposed to making the "trash"* abilities worth using and removing things from the list of "good" abilities is just going to make the system less appealing to me overall.

(Likely) Rule 101:  Helminth powers of either type can help improve stats but can NEVER outperform the ability on the original frame or replace the skill set of existing frames (Saryn is your example).

However flawed, DE has “usage” as the barometer.

Once you know this is likely the case, it’s up to you to decide if the whole system is worth your real-life time, resources, and energy.

It’s an advanced form of what you see happen with new weapons.

[Krankbert]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Hikuro-93:

Still, I find the system to be too young to make these kind of changes so soon. Which is why apparently MfD will have to be reviewed a second time already.

They said the effects of the nerf will be reviewed when they nerfed it because people keep whining that everything gets nerfed into the ground and then never looked at again everytime DE touches something. This forum is the kind of crowd you have to spell this out to, just like they need it spelled out to that DE doesn't nerf things merely because they're popular or fun.

[SneakyErvin]

I understand perfectly fine why M4D had several changes done to it. Most of them were simply bug fixes, like mods double dipping, the ability somehow being able to crit aswell as benefitting from overkill damage. The only questionable change which wasnt a bug fix is the change to the damage, capping it at 75%, which I just dont understand why it was done in this same patch. They should have left it as a scaling-with-strength skill and monitored how it performed when the bugs are now fixed.

But I just dont get the people that complain over the obvious bugs getting fixed, since they werent intended mechanics of the skill to begin with. I do however fully support those complaining about the actual nerf i.e the 75% damage cap.

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, Hardwood said:

I'm glad that everyone hates Saryn, as long as they are distracted I will continue to nuke everything easier and harder with Mirage.

Even if they do nerf Saryn the fun police will likely come for Volt and Equinox next.

i dont think they would ever touch volt that way , seems too far off

[Hierarch777]

Nerf, shnerf. I can still kill hordes quickly.