Marked for Nerf is a thing that happened but saryn exists.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

At this point im concerned about the helminth system. It seems like DE is steadfastly opposed to making the "trash"* abilities worth using and removing things from the list of "good" abilities is just going to make the system less appealing to me overall.

I think one of the most basic problems with the Helminth system is that it's running up against tiered ability design -- 1 abilities are meant to be distinctly less powerful than 4 abilities, yet subsuming frames can give us 1, 2, and 3 abilities to choose from, so one can already power creep one's frames by swapping out our crappiest ability with a much stronger option. Thus, I suspect DE wanted to mitigate this by making Helminth abilities less powerful overall -- the base Helminth options at the very least are all awful, with the exception of Marked for Death until very recently. It's likely also because of this that actually good Helminth options were nerfed, because the bar for balance is being set low. It's not a great situation for DE because right now, even though the abilities on offer all feel neutered, they're still worth swapping out whenever a frame has a dead ability (and most frames have at least one). Buffing them all to be satisfying would not only risk power creeping us all (which I think isn't that important given how power crept we are already, but DE seems to be selectively concerned about that anyways), but would also risk calling for buffs to a whole bunch of existing abilities to be up to par with the new balancing standard. As such, the end result so far is a system that feels completely unexciting and far more limited than we'd initially hoped, but that can't really be improved without warping the game significantly further.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

the base Helminth options at the very least are all awful

Infested Mobility, Empower, and Energized Munitions are all decent if not good.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Bi polar community at it again!

Community: Grrr MFD nerf unfair

Same community: nerf saryn into the ground reeee

Oh noes saryn is really good at onslaught, i wonder if it's cause that mode takes place in a singular room with a high enemy spawn making it ideal for spores to build high damage count. Buy naw just nerf her into the ground cause of a niche use then turn around and cry that DE nerfs fun things when it happens.

 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

1 minute ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

The PC community must be different, because I rarely see saryn, and I exclusively pug if I'm not playing solo. Heck, I'm at the point, which I've mentioned before, to pay people to play saryn where it's appropriate and helpful.. that's how rare she is.. I'm literally seeing more Grendel players.. and no one uses him 😂

I see saryns when i go to eso and then its 50/50 chance as in i try to play something else no saryn, go saryn so i can reach round 8 and then the whole lobby is saryn. I come across some in random fissures but they don't wipe the whole as some people complain they feel more supportive with spores as it's extra damage and a free corrosive proc to make the mission go faster

[Yakhul]

I have to agree with op. In fact, let's revisit other similar instances:

MFD was good, got nerf, but saryn didn't 

Kuva bramma was pretty darn good, got slight nerf, but saryn didn't 

Catchmoon was rightfully nerfed,  but saryn didn't. 

See the pattern? The community was really vocal about those 3 mentioned above, yet remained silent about saryn, thus, no way DE will hear the other part of the community that is asking for saryn to be had another look. DE keeps nerfing good things, but they never nerf the root of it all: saryn.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

25 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

I have to agree with op. In fact, let's revisit other similar instances:

MFD was good, got nerf, but saryn didn't 

Kuva bramma was pretty darn good, got slight nerf, but saryn didn't 

Catchmoon was rightfully nerfed,  but saryn didn't. 

See the pattern? The community was really vocal about those 3 mentioned above, yet remained silent about saryn, thus, no way DE will hear the other part of the community that is asking for saryn to be had another look. DE keeps nerfing good things, but they never nerf the root of it all: saryn.

The difference between Bramma/Catchmoon and Saryn is that they dominated their weapon categories. Saryn may see high usage, but she doesn't dominate her category.
Marked for Death nerf was a bit overzealous, but as they said, it didn't follow their intended design, nevermind the fact that it was bug riddled. What they should've done is nerfed the base value to 25% with a hard cap of 150-200% of an enemies max health

[_Anise_]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

The community rightly or wrongy demanded that DE to remove OP nuking abilities as much as possible.

that why banshee 4 is near useless and hardly anyone plays her or the ones that do only ever use her 2 or 3 ?

[Traumtulpe]

48 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

but as they said, it didn't follow their intended design

Please tell me you didn't believe that. The ability has a demo video - in it you will see a group of identical enemies, one gets marked and shot, resulting in everything in line of sight and range falling over dead.

Now DE turns around and tells you MfD was totally never intended to kill groups of enemies, and you were supposed to target heavy units only to kill the small fry. I guess they didn't watch the video someone completely unrelated must have made for their ability.

I'll tell you exactly what happened. There were videos with stupid high damage numbers on Youtube. Someone at DE watched those, and thought "big number bad". Add obligatory excuses.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Yakhul said:

I have to agree with op. In fact, let's revisit other similar instances:

MFD was good, got nerf, but saryn didn't 

Kuva bramma was pretty darn good, got slight nerf, but saryn didn't 

Catchmoon was rightfully nerfed,  but saryn didn't. 

See the pattern? The community was really vocal about those 3 mentioned above, yet remained silent about saryn, thus, no way DE will hear the other part of the community that is asking for saryn to be had another look. DE keeps nerfing good things, but they never nerf the root of it all: saryn.

The root of it all is range mods. 

Not sure if you're aware, but I just "nuked" a low level mission with Gauss. 

The root of the nuking issue is more bruised ego and people that can't build their own group. 

[JackHargreav]

So what? Saryn is a warframe with synergies. M4d was an ability that could have been put on any frame.

Do I have to continue?

Of course they could buff some abilities but that's not a reason to keep marked for death in the state it was in.

Even if they buff abilities, Cc ones would never be able to be on par with M4d. Like how do you Airbust to be as good as M4d was?

[ganjou234]

Directional nuking has always been fairer than omnidirectional ones.

At least with directional nukes other players can cover/hold other areas/directions.

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

From the devstream we know that a part of the balance team is on vacation right now, so it seems really out of place to make such an impactful decision right now.

There's a balance team?

[Jufrow]

Saryn is good at ESO. Beyond that I fail to see what makes her so amazing other than that booty. Lots of aoe dps without any cc or control.

Is there some amazing interaction with Helminth I'm unaware of?

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Padre_Akais:

There's a balance team?

There is, i dont think they are doing a good job overall. Some members specifically.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

nerfing Saryn doesn't solve anything. don't take out your anger on a single frame just because the nerf hit something you like. I get that she's strong, but all you'd get is even more salt. people need to actually think about why stuff gets nerfed. and let's be honest, anyone with 1% of a brain cell knew MfD was never going to stay as it was, and those of you who have been around a while should already know by now that DE are ALWAYS heavy handed with the nerfs, why would this be any different?

doesn't help that the balance team are on vacation either, I wouldn't want to be them right now, they must have facepalmed when they saw the new stats, knowing the reaction that would take place.

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

nerfing Saryn doesn't solve anything. don't take out your anger on a single frame just because the nerf hit something you like. I get that she's strong, but all you'd get is even more salt. people need to actually think about why stuff gets nerfed. and let's be honest, anyone with 1% of a brain cell knew MfD was never going to stay as it was, and those of you who have been around a while should already know by now that DE are ALWAYS heavy handed with the nerfs, why would this be any different?

doesn't help that the balance team are on vacation either, I wouldn't want to be them right now, they must have facepalmed when they saw the new stats, knowing the reaction that would take place.

When I see people asking for Saryn nerfs I think it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of why M4D was nerfed in the first place. 

Ease of use nuke button, press two buttons delete the room blam. Even old Bladestorm may not have required you to target and could go through walls, but it wasn't instant. 

Saryn at least requires you to setup a little. M4D is a badly designed ability in the first place IMO. It promotes dull, repetitive gameplay. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Yakhul said:

I have to agree with op. In fact, let's revisit other similar instances:

MFD was good, got nerf, but saryn didn't 

Kuva bramma was pretty darn good, got slight nerf, but saryn didn't 

Catchmoon was rightfully nerfed,  but saryn didn't. 

See the pattern? The community was really vocal about those 3 mentioned above, yet remained silent about saryn, thus, no way DE will hear the other part of the community that is asking for saryn to be had another look. DE keeps nerfing good things, but they never nerf the root of it all: saryn.

I definitely see a pattern.

3 of them are useful in the vast majority of the game. They deal massive damage at any time, in any place. One of them is highly specialized for use in one specific type of mission, ie a tiny map with crazy high spawn density. She deals mediocre damage everywhere else because she can't ramp up the numbers on her spores rapidly enough to be useful, she can't keep her damage high in the absence of spores spreading, and in many low level missions, as soon as the spores start to ramp up, they instakill the enemies, and have to be recast nearly continuously. 

Did you miss that distinguishing factor? 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

it nukes enemies meanwhile saryn exists. 

MfD savage silence banshee exists too. Ironically MfD nerf affected SS banshee not one bit. 

[Berzerkules]

Saryn isn't nuking full rooms hitting damage cap while being invis 100% of the time. 

Also, how can you be anti Saryn when you use a Mesa glyph? Mesa is the epitome press one button to win frames.

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

20 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Mesa is the epitome press one button to win frames.

Well no.. Mesa needs LoS

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Can you phrase it in such a way that every single thing you say is actually true and still have it work?

i can boil it down to be easier to read:

don't try to use legal definitions of things to protect your values and interests. i'm not one that can be distracted with that strategy.
Abilities which are purpose designed to let you press a button from time to time (or in the case of Peacemaker just spin your Camera), are functionally indifferent from being AFK.
it doesn't matter if you could have a Lawyer say "but technically", what matters is the actuality.

if a non Human Being could replace you in what you're doing to play a game, you're not really playing it.

 

but, you can still hide behind lawyer speak of technically not being AFK despite you knowing very well that on a scale of 1-100 for activity with 0 being AFK, you're in the single digits and it's your own argument that is nonsensical. being able to uphold it in Court doesn't make it right. it just makes it technically not wrong. 

[Traumtulpe]

30 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Abilities which are purpose designed to let you press a button from time to time (or in the case of Peacemaker just spin your Camera), are functionally indifferent from being AFK.

I really don't think Mesa qualifies as AFK-Warframe. What you are looking for is Octavia. I use Mesa quite frequently now, because she is incredibly fast. I hardly ever touch the ground for more than a second.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

40 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i can boil it down to be easier to read:

don't try to use legal definitions of things to protect your values and interests. i'm not one that can be distracted with that strategy.
Abilities which are purpose designed to let you press a button from time to time (or in the case of Peacemaker just spin your Camera), are functionally indifferent from being AFK.
it doesn't matter if you could have a Lawyer say "but technically", what matters is the actuality.

if a non Human Being could replace you in what you're doing to play a game, you're not really playing it.

 

but, you can still hide behind lawyer speak of technically not being AFK despite you knowing very well that on a scale of 1-100 for activity with 0 being AFK, you're in the single digits and it's your own argument that is nonsensical. being able to uphold it in Court doesn't make it right. it just makes it technically not wrong. 

Simple litmus test. Can you do it on a console? If yes then fine it's afk. If no then it requires input on your part. 

We can also mention that sort of scripting is frowned upon. 

[32768]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I agree, haven't seen it even once. Even now that consoles don't have the nerf, afaik. Which makes the logic very strange. But on the stream statistics DE_Rebb showed it was the most popular ability, even if it didn't have a huge difference in regards to other abilities. And by that logic Roar also has a second nerf coming its way, since it's still the most popular subsumed ability despite the hit it already took.

Go figure the whole thing.

I suspect that roar was just "default ability" everyone wanted to try. Like Empower is the default ability everyone is going to put on their frame.

So there is probably nothing too OP in that ability, it's just everyone didn't come up with a better idea.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Infested Mobility, Empower, and Energized Munitions are all decent if not good.

Side note: Ammo efficiency seemed like it wasn't popular or known about until some youtuber made a video. I had 2 R5 arcanes from arbitrations that no one really asked about until recently and I ended up selling them both for 400p each pretty fast. 

I'm a melee person and only use guns as status applicators, but for gun users ammo efficiency is pretty nice.