Don't put the cart before the horse (second Necramech )

[keikogi]

Putting it simple DE should not release the second melee mech before they´ve at lest allowed mechs in general to use a melee weapon. I know stances are hard to create because they need a lot of animations but DE could go in lore friendly way about that.

Here my solution

Just give all necramech a necra mech fist weapon that has no stance and has the same punching animations we have right now but at least it works as mod vessels. Make father contact us and say that maybe an old dog can learn new tricks. Have us do a mini quest to where father ask is essentially motion cap our heavy blade stance and get him some special Matrix for a new project.  After studying warframe melee he creates a new Type of matrix that can be equipped into the Agnuza , Onorix and Veritrux ( it is their version of Gravimag combined with a stance) allowing us to finally equip a proper melee on mech. To Have a lore friendlily way to explain why the rest is coming latter just say father is developing the new stances for heavy hammer, Scythe and Shields right now. So there a in game reason why they are currently unavailable.

 

Edit 

Just clarifying stuff, the new mech 4th skill a exalted weapon, how creative I know. Here where I got the info. Time stamp 39:20

Also it does not look like he is paving the way for other melee weapons since the weapon is desined to be used as both a ranged and melee weapon(its some kind of gun blade but uses melee strikes for melee and fires normaly with mouse button ) and not a weapon swap or 1 weapon on each hand basis , putting it simple it is not paving the way for a system compatible with all archmelee. At best it is laying the foudation to new type of hybrid arching gun the is used for both the melee slot and primary slot. 

[NecroPed]

I assumed the melee mech would be laying the foundation for melee across all mechs, while giving a more controlled environment for testing mech melee before bringing all archmelee to the table.

[Traumtulpe]

My impression was that the new mech will be the only one with the ability to use melee weapons. His ability is to use a melee weapon, quite literally. Apparently the weapon he comes with will be just a regular weapon, available for use with Archwing. Similar to how the first mech came with the Mausolon.

[Teoarrk]

31 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I assumed the melee mech would be laying the foundation for melee across all mechs, while giving a more controlled environment for testing mech melee before bringing all archmelee to the table.

 

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

My impression was that the new mech will be the only one with the ability to use melee weapons. His ability is to use a melee weapon, quite literally. Apparently the weapon he comes with will be just a regular weapon, available for use with Archwing. Similar to how the first mech came with the Mausolon.

The new mech's melee better be the best melee we've ever seen in terms of raw potency to be able to hold a candle to this.

[keikogi]

52 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I assumed the melee mech would be laying the foundation for melee across all mechs, while giving a more controlled environment for testing mech melee before bringing all archmelee to the table.

Adressed on the edit , it does not look like it is compatible wiht weapon swithing or 1 weapon on each hand so it is not laying the foundation for a universal system. His weapon is some kind of gunblade that fires on mouse button and melee on E. At best it is the first of new type of archgun that can be used as both melee and gun at the same time. 

 

[keikogi]

20 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

The new mech's melee better be the best melee we've ever seen in terms of raw potency to be able to hold a candle to this.

Welll making hight damage numbers is easy just add a few extra zeros to the base damage. 

[keikogi]

26 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

My impression was that the new mech will be the only one with the ability to use melee weapons. His ability is to use a melee weapon, quite literally. Apparently the weapon he comes with will be just a regular weapon, available for use with Archwing. Similar to how the first mech came with the Mausolon.

Pay attention to the weapon desing it is someking of gunblade desined to be used as melee and ranged weapon. It is a exalted wepon because it is his forth skill. They have plans to make it a arch gun but if they go ahead with them I don´t see a point on the mech if his 4th is availible to every body. 

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

Reminds me of what Steel_Rook said. Had DE just given the first Necramech a placeholder melee weapon instead of adding on 4 additional mod slots, it'd make it easier for future mechs. Low and behold a melee Necramech.

[Teoarrk]

7 hours ago, keikogi said:

Well making high damage numbers is easy just add a few extra zeros to the base damage. 

I mean it is easy, but it also makes me wonder what they were thinking releasing guard mode as they did.

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Reminds me of what Steel_Rook said. Had DE just given the first Necramech a placeholder melee weapon instead of adding on 4 additional mod slots, it'd

I originally talked about this idea with steel rook on topic about not being able to equip 12 mods on a mech , I refined it and gave it its own post because of the Data I could gather watching the home stream .

[keikogi]

2 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

mean it is easy, but it also makes me wonder what they were thinking releasing guard mode

Pehaps it was just a oversight , the arquibex had an exrra mod slot , it would not be hard to believe it also has an extra zero on it's base damage but DE won't "fix" it because it would kill all interest around mech. Or they just gave them a exalted weapon with Jesus damage because the rest of thr kit is meh at best , let's review 1th aoe slow ( decent but thr shoot to deal damage feature feel lime a hinderance rather than a good thing ) , 2th skill bad iron skin , 3 skill bad damage skill so they compensated a badly designed kit by giving Jesus damage to the exalted weapon. 

[Teoarrk]

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

Or they just gave them a exalted weapon with Jesus damage because the rest of thr kit is meh at best

 

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

so they compensated a badly designed kit by giving Jesus damage to the exalted weapon. 

I concur. The kit of the Necramech is fairly mediocre besides that. If these are just a sideshow, then thats fine, but they are spending time and resources on these which hopefully will culminate in something interesting. Hopefully 2 or 3 more designs over the course of this year and next as well as specific bosses these things are made to fight.

 

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

but DE won't "fix" it because it would kill all interest around mech.

I don't know about this though. They are a completely different kettle of fish to the rest of the game and most likely (as you have concepted in this thread) be our window into Archwing melee planetside. Some of the most aesthetically interesting melee weapons are in the Archwing pool, so I would stick around for that even it is tied to a big stompy walker with meh abilities. The Mausolon is alsothe best Archgun right now and the Cortege is also up there in terms of viability with meh ammo capacity. All Archguns have unlimited ammo in the hands of a Necramech, which certainly adds to their appeal.

But more on topic - What would an Orokin mocap room look like? Does Father have Hivesight due to his advanced mutation? How would he test us? These questions pop into my mind. Would a Necramech specific Melee be better served as a physical blade or hammer of sorts, or a short range personal defence weapon, like a snub nosed shotgun or highly caustic acid spewer?

[Luciole77]

putting formas on necramech is very time consuming .... you need about 8 formas and still have a mod space left ... that is .... necramesh are not yet fully finished.

 

Will it be useful in the future? If so, it will take a long time to find out .... DE takes a long time to go back on what it did.

 

[keikogi]

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

I concur. The kit of the Necramech is fairly mediocre besides that. If these are just a sideshow, then thats fine, but they are spending time and resources on these which hopefully will culminate in something interesting. Hopefully 2 or 3 more designs over the course of this year and next as well as specific bosses these things are made to fight.

 

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

I don't know about this though. They are a completely different kettle of fish to the rest of the game and most likely (as you have concepted in this thread) be our window into Archwing melee planetside. Some of the most aesthetically interesting melee weapons are in the Archwing pool, so I would stick around for that even it is tied to a big stompy walker with meh abilities. The Mausolon is alsothe best Archgun right now and the Cortege is also up there in terms of viability with meh ammo capacity. All Archguns have unlimited ammo in the hands of a Necramech, which certainly adds to their appeal.

They cannot be meant to be a side show because they are a remarkably expensive side show. Creating a entire new animation set and command controls just to slap a seconds of footage for a trailer is just bad. Meanwhile they cant muster the courage to show Xaku in action because I find it funny that Xaku has been feature in 3 different trailer but I´ve not seen off his skills featured into these youtube advertisements. If they are used just for a boss fight where they are mandatory they have a even worse fate than operators because operators at least pop up time to time.

They are different fish but they will swim on the same water therefore they have to be on the same overall power level. Necramechs are straight up bad compared to a warframe , they have superior base stats but have bad survivability mods , weak active damage mitigation ( bad dodge and no block ) , no shield gate so at the end of the day they are less resilient.  Their mobility options are worse but that were to be expected. As far as damage is concerned they have the masolon and no damage buffing abilities , arguably fine. Skill set. Boy if someone proposed that to me here what my feed back would be

1^st skill , decent cc but why did you add a hard to use feature that makes the skill worse , you are loosing area denial for now sacling damage. Unless you want to punish people for direct hit this is straight up stupid

2 skill bad iron skin

3 why are you creating a non scaling low range aoe damage skill ? at least add a utility purpose

4 So have you heard of balance?

It frankly concerning that mistakes I could spot at a glance made all the way trough launch

Their mobility also needs a side dash allowing player to retaliate while doding because their have terrible active damage mitigation as I´ve stated before

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

ut more on topic - What would an Orokin mocap room look like? Does Father have Hivesight due to his advanced mutation? How would he test us? These questions pop into my mind. Would a Necramech specific Melee be better served as a physical blade or hammer of sorts, or a short range personal defence weapon, like a snub nosed shotgun or highly caustic acid spewer?

I feel like he should have a room he should just have a bunch of servo skull with a cameras and spotlight “ gun “   fallowing you around while you massacre infested.  It need to be captured during a fight because father needs to understand the moves and where to use them , not a simple 1:1 copy.

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Luciole77 said:

Will it be useful in the future? If so, it will take a long time to find out .... DE takes a long time to go back on what it did

That´s why they should release stuff on a good state , because they it feels like they only have two types of schedule next hotfix or 2 years 

1 hour ago, Luciole77 said:

utting formas on necramech is very time consuming .... you need about 8 formas and still have a mod space left ... that is .... necramesh are not yet fully finished.

What forma has to do with no melee weapon slot ?

[Teoarrk]

12 minutes ago, keikogi said:

It frankly concerning that mistakes I could spot at a glance made all the way trough launch

HoD, at least the launch ready prep appears to been done in 4 months. The balance of the content that came with it, especially the Necramech powers best reflect how rushed the development was (towards the end). Although there are a few other aspects that are balanced better than the more hyped open worlds, they certainly screwed the pooch on the powers. This doesn't even go into the mess that is the 'lets skip around reworks' Helminth System.

[Luciole77]

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

That´s why they should release stuff on a good state , because they it feels like they only have two types of schedule next hotfix or 2 years 

What forma has to do with no melee weapon slot ?

im talking about necramechs...not mellee.

[keikogi]

10 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

HoD, at least the launch ready prep appears to been done in 4 months. The balance of the content that came with it, especially the Necramech powers best reflect how rushed the development was (towards the end). Although there are a few other aspects that are balanced better than the more hyped open worlds, they certainly screwed the pooch on the powers. This doesn't even go into the mess that is the 'lets skip around reworks' Helminth System.

I don´t know It feel more like of consequence of a disregard for gameplay and economy. As i´ve sad , I the mistakes are basic stuff. Even the economy is the worse one so far , despite having the experience with  2 previous open world. I can´t help but feel like the whole token nonsense is just a way to make me not able to spot how bad the conversion rates are. The whole helminth data debacle is just sad, man is it hard to spot say that if people get rid of something it is either bad or unfun ( or at least people think so).

[keikogi]

Just now, Luciole77 said:

im talking about necramechs...not mellee.

and this topic is about necramech melee and no amount of forma will make it good 

[Teoarrk]

25 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I can´t help but feel like the whole token nonsense is just a way to make me not able to spot how bad the conversion rates are

I concur wholeheartedly. Some of the rarest creatures in this new open world are worth no more than a copse of pobbers on OV.

 

53 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I feel like he should have a room he should just have a bunch of servo skull with a cameras and spotlight “ gun “   fallowing you around while you massacre infested.  It need to be captured during a fight because father needs to understand the moves and where to use them , not a simple 1:1 copy.

Interesting. I think I'm finding a place where 'Slaystorm' could actually exist. (Endless exterminate with a much more enthusiastic coordination Ops than usual).

[Steel_Rook]

12 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Reminds me of what Steel_Rook said. Had DE just given the first Necramech a placeholder melee weapon instead of adding on 4 additional mod slots, it'd make it easier for future mechs. Low and behold a melee Necramech.

I was actually coming to make that exact point, myself :)

DE could have saved themselves a headache by giving Necramechs a melee weapon slot with a "Necramech Fist" melee weapon that's just their existing unarmed melee weapon. We could then mod that melee weapon using Archmelee mods, and Necramechs themselves could have had 8 mod slots. That way, they future-proof Necramechs for whenever they have the chance to either port Archwing Melee weapons or design new weapons from scratch. No further changes would be needed to the base Necramech model, because all of the systems would be in place.

What they did now was add four extra slots to the Necramech, add a bunch of melee weapon mods to the Necramech itself and ensure that any attempt to add melee weapons as a moddable item will require substantial core system redesigns. It's pretty clear from the Dev Stream that DE never really even considered porting Archmelee weapons to Necramechs, since all of their discussions was couched in a very theoretical "Yeah, that's a neat idea. Not sure how we'd do it, though." To me, this says they never even entertained the notion, which is disappointing. It would explain the complete lack of future-proofing, though.

Best case scenario, we get Necramech "Heavy Melee" weapons, all the melee mods move from "Necramech" to "Heavy Melee" and the Mech stays with 12 slots. Slightly lest best-case - the same thing happens but Mechs lose 4 slots and drop down to the default 8. Realistically, I don't expect anything will happen since Archwing melee weapons are one of these things that DE have consistently pretended don't exist. I mean, we got Atmospheric Archguns with their own set of animations. Never got Atmsopheric Melee weapons, even though I'd love to have one :)

[keikogi]

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

I concur wholeheartedly. Some of the rarest creatures in this new open world are worth no more than a copse of pobbers on OV.

Fish and gens have the big suck too. Also you have to waste time converting currencies.

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

Interesting. I think I'm finding a place where 'Slaystorm' could actually exist. (Endless exterminate with a much more enthusiastic coordination Ops than usual).

I feel like due to the There someone watching nature of the game mode DE could create a interesting way to  playtest new stuff. For example this game mod could be father trying out new weapons and the son cultivating new strains of the infestation ( new warframe modifications ). In this game mode you would play with a loudout assinined to you by father and son. This loudout could be a build possible in game or straight up new effects for old guns or new infused abilities or buffed version of existing abilities. This game mode could be used to measure how effective a buff is or how strong a new argument mod would be on new weapon.

[Teoarrk]

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

Fish and gens have the big suck too. Also you have to waste time converting currencies.

I feel like due to the There someone watching nature of the game mode DE could create a interesting way to  playtest new stuff. For example this game mod could be father trying out new weapons and the son cultivating new strains of the infestation ( new warframe modifications ). In this game mode you would play with a loudout assinined to you by father and son. This loudout could be a build possible in game or straight up new effects for old guns or new infused abilities or buffed version of existing abilities. This game mode could be used to measure how effective a buff is or how strong a new argument mod would be on new weapon.

I'll let you know when I bash out something of note in your messages. Apologies for derailing.

[Teoarrk]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Best case scenario, we get Necramech "Heavy Melee" weapons, all the melee mods move from "Necramech" to "Heavy Melee" and the Mech stays with 12 slots. Slightly lest best-case - the same thing happens but Mechs lose 4 slots and drop down to the default 8. Realistically, I don't expect anything will happen since Archwing melee weapons are one of these things that DE have consistently pretended don't exist. I mean, we got Atmospheric Archguns with their own set of animations. Never got Atmsopheric Melee weapons, even though I'd love to have one :)

Back on topic, I think that there is a genuine concern here with their decisions. If they do eventually give us the entire Arch Melee roster, they will be stronger on the mech than they ever were in space, creating an interesting polar opposite to the current Warframe powers affected by rivens phenomena. Granted, the Necramechs are supposed to be brickhouse force multipliers, but that fact throws even more questions out as to why exactly they weren't chosen over us, despite being produced (supposedly) years earlier. What we know of the Old War is that only a few things were really necessary to be Sentient fighting ready

client requirements to fight Sentients:

• Tough
• Void-touched (or void powered)
• Reliable
• Useful in all environments
• Not susceptible to Sentient countermeasures

They have more going for them then us, unless you consider brickhouse intelligence being an important downside for a war that was mostly decided by raw firepower (initially).

[Steel_Rook]

17 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

Back on topic, I think that there is a genuine concern here with their decisions. If they do eventually give us the entire Arch Melee roster, they will be stronger on the mech than they ever were in space, creating an interesting polar opposite to the current Warframe powers affected by rivens phenomena.

How do you figure? They're the same weapons, I don't see why they'd be more powerful. Unless you expect Necramechs to retain their melee damage buffs on top of Archmelee damage buffs? I doubt that's going to happen, personally. After all, it used to be the case that Necramech ranged weapons recovered ammo very slowly, but that seems to have been fixed near as I can tell. I THINK they recover ammo same as Archwing ranged weapons. Which, unfortunately, generally makes them weaker than Warframe weapons if purely for reasons of mod availability.

 

19 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

They have more going for them then us, unless you consider brickhouse intelligence being an important downside for a war that was mostly decided by raw firepower (initially).

Narratively, Necramechs lacks mobility. They can cover open ground quickly, but any kind of complex terrain trips them up quite a bit. They're also huge, which limits the interior terrain they can engage in combat in. They're also wholly incapable of stealth, being "large stompy robots." It seems to me like the Tenno's primary source of threat is being space ninja wizards. Their Orbiters are nomadic, their Landers are cloaked, their Warframes are always capable of stealth even at full combat efficiency. The Tenno aren't just a blunt force. They're a thread with the tendency to turn up in the wrong place at the wrong time past all of your defences.

Gameplay-wise... I don't know. Operators, Archwings and now Necramechs are simply objectively inferior to our Warframes and their gear regardless of what the narrative might say. By sheer weight of mod availability, our Warframes are tougher than any Necramech or Archwing, our guns are more powerful than any Archgun without the downside of limiting mobility, our melee weapons are faster and deadlier than any Archmelee weapon. Worse, our Warframe gear is generally better at taking out Sentients than our Operators are, outside of where the game simply prevents us from doing damage to Sentient structures at all. Necramechs give me the hope of having a "heavy Warframe" all over again, but my reasons for giving up on that hope remain. As long as the likes of Inaros, Rhino, Atlas and the like exist, there will be no point in trading mobility for survivability. As long as Warframe guns exist in any capacity, there will never be a reason to bring Archwing weapons since they're never going to measure up. And that's not even getting into Operators, who don't even HAVE the capacity for mods at all...

I'd love to know what - if anything - DE intended for us to do with our Necramechs. Because it seems like a repeat of K-Drives. They're neat from a novelty perspective, but serve no purpose in our arsenal.