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Apparently DE still can't figure out NW after YEARS in game.


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On 2020-10-04 at 9:02 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You high or something?

People have been getting stuff that costs 20 plat for free, but somehow in your head that's how you get more money from people? The alerts sucked. You literally couldn't do the majority of the alerts in a day without playing throughout the whole day. You had to make yourself available to play 24/7 or accept that you would not be able to get all of the things you wanted. 

For many of us, potatoes were a major sticking point as far as growing our power went, when we were new. They reliably showed up once a fortnight at best. Otherwise they were frigging unicorns. And alertium? If you got lucky you might see 2 a day when you were playing. Vauban? Again if you were lucky you might get all of his parts in a few days of play, or you might be trying to get him for a month, and just missing the alerts. 

With nightwave we get triply rewarded for doing the things we already do, once for the mission we did it in, once in the rewards for the first 30 tiers, and once again in the cred store. But you think that's "increasing the grind"? That's a ridiculous thing for you to say. 

You must be the one on drugs.  The work you do for a single potato is mathematically far greater than it ever was with alerts.  They replaced RNG with massive grind.  A single challenge might be 10 missions and those 10 missions will net you less than half a rank, and a rank after the first 30 is 15 credits.  A potato is 75 credits.  That's 5 ranks for a single potato, which is about all you're going to get for a whole week's worth of challenges.  So under NW you can get a single potato if you can do all the challenges in a week and getting that potato excludes you from getting anything else from the store that week.  I never had to choose between Nitain or potatoes or alt helms when I played under alerts.

Several of these challenges are gated off from new players through difficulty or literally just grind.  You can't do the Profit Taker challenge when it shows up until you've maxed out your rank with SU.  That's 7k off the table for that week.  Some of the challenges require a Railjack.  You can at least get taxied to that one, if someone will help you.  Some of them require you kill a lich, which is hours of work even for an experienced player.  Hours for a single challenge that won't even net you a full rank.  The players that need the most credits (new players) are the ones that will have the hardest time getting those credits without someone hard carrying them through several of the challenges.

Then once they have those credits, they have to budget them.  With alerts, you saw an alert and you did it.  One mission, one reward.  However many alerts you were around for is how much you got rewarded from them, if you did them.  NW credits have a hard cap.  There are only so many that you can get.  Between MR items locked in the store, vital auras locked in the store, the cosmetics that players want, Nitain that's required for so many things and the need for potatoes, new players are going to have a hard time budgeting to figure out which things they can get and what they should wait on.  And the RNG is still there.  If you need a specific aura it might be weeks before it hits the store again.  I've been waiting on the Grendel alt helm for like a year now, because it's only been in once.  There is a reason why the NW complaints crop up every single series and intermission once people start hitting the cap.  You literally can't get squat once you hit the cap.  Everything is plat only from that point forward except nitain, which you're just SOL on.

That is a massive increase to grind for the technically less rewards than were available before.  You didn't have to sacrifice getting one thing because you needed something else with alerts, you just got the ones that were available.  Alerts were severely flawed, but so is Nightwave.  It's extra chores for less allowance.  Why do you think they won't uncap it, or extend the cap?  Because it creates scarcity.  I've bought more potatoes with plat than I ever had to with alerts.  It is provably more work for the same rewards, and the rewards themselves are now constrained by a credit cap and they won't address this in any way shape or form and somehow, I'm the one on drugs.  Okay.

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21 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You must be the one on drugs.  The work you do for a single potato is mathematically far greater than it ever was with alerts.  They replaced RNG with massive grind.  A single challenge might be 10 missions and those 10 missions will net you less than half a rank, and a rank after the first 30 is 15 credits.  A potato is 75 credits.  That's 5 ranks for a single potato, which is about all you're going to get for a whole week's worth of challenges.  So under NW you can get a single potato if you can do all the challenges in a week and getting that potato excludes you from getting anything else from the store that week.  I never had to choose between Nitain or potatoes or alt helms when I played under alerts.

Several of these challenges are gated off from new players through difficulty or literally just grind.  You can't do the Profit Taker challenge when it shows up until you've maxed out your rank with SU.  That's 7k off the table for that week.  Some of the challenges require a Railjack.  You can at least get taxied to that one, if someone will help you.  Some of them require you kill a lich, which is hours of work even for an experienced player.  Hours for a single challenge that won't even net you a full rank.  The players that need the most credits (new players) are the ones that will have the hardest time getting those credits without someone hard carrying them through several of the challenges.

Then once they have those credits, they have to budget them.  With alerts, you saw an alert and you did it.  One mission, one reward.  However many alerts you were around for is how much you got rewarded from them, if you did them.  NW credits have a hard cap.  There are only so many that you can get.  Between MR items locked in the store, vital auras locked in the store, the cosmetics that players want, Nitain that's required for so many things and the need for potatoes, new players are going to have a hard time budgeting to figure out which things they can get and what they should wait on.  And the RNG is still there.  If you need a specific aura it might be weeks before it hits the store again.  I've been waiting on the Grendel alt helm for like a year now, because it's only been in once.  There is a reason why the NW complaints crop up every single series and intermission once people start hitting the cap.  You literally can't get squat once you hit the cap.  Everything is plat only from that point forward except nitain, which you're just SOL on.

That is a massive increase to grind for the technically less rewards than were available before.  You didn't have to sacrifice getting one thing because you needed something else with alerts, you just got the ones that were available.  Alerts were severely flawed, but so is Nightwave.  It's extra chores for less allowance.  Why do you think they won't uncap it, or extend the cap?  Because it creates scarcity.  I've bought more potatoes with plat than I ever had to with alerts.  It is provably more work for the same rewards, and the rewards themselves are now constrained by a credit cap and they won't address this in any way shape or form and somehow, I'm the one on drugs.  Okay.

And a single mission might contribute to multiple challenges under nightwave, because unlike alerts we get to choose where and when and how we do the majority of the challenges. We get rewarded for the mission regardless, then we get rewarded for the first 30 tiers. Then we get rewarded by the cred store. Alerts, "well congratulations you got a few thousand credits as a reward, now do it again. And that's it. Wanted something else? You're out of luck. Sit down and wait lol. "

And yes, the whole "Omg I missed it it may take weeks before I see it again" is a possibility, but it always was under the alerts system, so you failed to make a valid point. Just like the whole "humans have unlimited wants but limited resources, so they need to choose wisely" was obviously lost on you because you seem to think that it means that the world is going to end. 

Alerts were what you constantly skipped because they had nothing you needed. Nightwave offers you a chance to get the things you want by doing the things you want to do. As for "creating scarcity" no. If you were a child and your parents had told you that you could get money whenever you asked for it up to a certain maximum, but once you spent it all, you won't get any more until the next month, you would have accused them of creating scarcity by giving you too much? 

Seriously, tell your dealer you need to lay off for a while. 

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Il y a 10 heures, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu a dit :

Yeah, like... they could just charge us $60 up front for the game, then $20-50 per DLC expansion, then $25 for each NW "BattlePass Season", and not to mention every Prime being a $5-10 DLC.   I mean, that's how MOST games do it... 

But nope, it's all free... even the PREMIUM CURRENCY can be traded... FREE.  

So, if they drag it out a tad bit DURING A PANDEMIC, whilst also hoping you maybe toss them 20 plat for a potato once in awhile (what's that, like.. USD $1?) so they can provide for their 220+ Employees that do NOT work for a charity...  

I don't see how what they're doing is "predatory" in the least.  It's business.

Oh, did you discover the cure to Covid19 or something?  Because for the rest of the waking world, the pandemic is still very much a live issue and has in no way "died down" to "normal".

Many assets are required, due to NDAs and trade secrets and all that, to stay AT the studio and CANNOT be brought home to work on.  The few people that DO work from home have, also, to now juggle with space for both work AND possible pets/children/spouses/parents, etc.  Some may even (Ordis-forbid) be -sick- and unable to work as productively.  Many do not have access to the same computers OR level of tech at home as they had in the office... (My PC would die if it tried to open 3D model rendering programs... Spotify causes it to crap out sometimes :P)

So yeah, no... it ain't "normal".   Your impatience does not dictate objective reality.

Was curious what was keeping this thread alive for so long, jumped to the last page and... thank god there still are sensible people out there, you gave me back a small amount of hope in humanity.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You must be the one on drugs.  The work you do for a single potato is mathematically far greater than it ever was with alerts.  They replaced RNG with massive grind.  A single challenge might be 10 missions and those 10 missions will net you less than half a rank, and a rank after the first 30 is 15 credits.  A potato is 75 credits.  That's 5 ranks for a single potato, which is about all you're going to get for a whole week's worth of challenges.  So under NW you can get a single potato if you can do all the challenges in a week and getting that potato excludes you from getting anything else from the store that week.  I never had to choose between Nitain or potatoes or alt helms when I played under alerts.

Of course. This is a long-term, perpetual experience. All games of this nature must include grind. It's simply a fact of life - it is impossible for devs to produce literally thousands of hours of pre-crafted content that's fresh and new. You want a game that lasts more than 30 hours? This is the experience you sign up for. What matters is whether that experience is consumer-friendly, and manages to achieve that goal in a fair manner.

So, instead of RNG where a player could hypothetically  go weeks, even months without being lucky enough to see a potato alert they wanted, it's replaced by a set amount of effort and investment to receive it.

7 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Several of these challenges are gated off from new players through difficulty or literally just grind.  You can't do the Profit Taker challenge when it shows up until you've maxed out your rank with SU.  That's 7k off the table for that week.  Some of the challenges require a Railjack.  You can at least get taxied to that one, if someone will help you.  Some of them require you kill a lich, which is hours of work even for an experienced player.  Hours for a single challenge that won't even net you a full rank.  The players that need the most credits (new players) are the ones that will have the hardest time getting those credits without someone hard carrying them through several of the challenges.

Alerts were also gated, by starchart progression. Sure, you can get taxi'd, but, as you say, they had a hard time getting that without someone hard carrying them through a mission which has much higher level enemies than they're actually prepared for.

Whilst a player would undoubtedly be new and have most need of these items, they would also very rapidly become capable of acquiring them, since for the most part, the more heavily gated ones are elite, and many of the rest aren't that far down the progression tree (certainly no further than the end of the starchart). And of course - a new player is not guaranteed (indeed, quite unlikely) to be willing to nolife the game to the point of optimal alert behaviour anyway.

8 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Then once they have those credits, they have to budget them.  With alerts, you saw an alert and you did it.  One mission, one reward.  However many alerts you were around for is how much you got rewarded from them, if you did them.  NW credits have a hard cap.  There are only so many that you can get.  Between MR items locked in the store, vital auras locked in the store, the cosmetics that players want, Nitain that's required for so many things and the need for potatoes, new players are going to have a hard time budgeting to figure out which things they can get and what they should wait on.  And the RNG is still there.  If you need a specific aura it might be weeks before it hits the store again.  I've been waiting on the Grendel alt helm for like a year now, because it's only been in once.  There is a reason why the NW complaints crop up every single series and intermission once people start hitting the cap.  You literally can't get squat once you hit the cap.  Everything is plat only from that point forward except nitain, which you're just SOL on.

'if' you saw an alert you wanted.

Because lets be real here, 'if' was the big question. Even though the RNG is still there, you have to not play for an entire week to not spot the specific aura you want, whilst under alerts it could easily be just as long and 'oops! You were at school, or asleep, or at work, or eating, or playing something else with your friends. Tough luck.' The RNG is still there, sure, but it's much more friendly on account of the fact that it is far harder to actually miss out on.

And sure, you can't get squat after you hit cap. But that's also a lot of stuff that, with work, you are guaranteed to get. and, by the same token as your earlier point, new players are also the least likely to hit that cap. They get their goodies throughout. The people most likely to hit that cap are the people who are least likely to need it. Bear in mind, the Nightwave system was designed for the Wolf of Saturn Six level of investment, not Glassmaker. Minimal new assets for the story, just a couple recorded voicelines and five panoramas. People asked for a more complex, harder-to-develop Nightwave which causes further problems for the system.

8 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

That is a massive increase to grind for the technically less rewards than were available before.  You didn't have to sacrifice getting one thing because you needed something else with alerts, you just got the ones that were available.  Alerts were severely flawed, but so is Nightwave.  It's extra chores for less allowance.  Why do you think they won't uncap it, or extend the cap?  Because it creates scarcity.  I've bought more potatoes with plat than I ever had to with alerts.  It is provably more work for the same rewards, and the rewards themselves are now constrained by a credit cap and they won't address this in any way shape or form and somehow, I'm the one on drugs.  Okay.

In terms of optimal play, yes. However, that optimal play is vastly more consumer friendly to achieve with Nightwave, so far more people are able to play in that optimal way in a healthier way.

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Alerts had problems. (a few changes could make them great)
Nightwave has problems. (It was not a panacea solution to all of alerts' problems.)

Alerts were better for me and many others.
Nightwave was introduced with contradictory goals and implementation (if their stated goals were the actual development goals.)

They are entirely different systems, only sharing some of the rewards. Why one had to replace the other is strange to me, without expecting the ulterior motives of more money due to increased scarcity of the rewards (as has been covered earlier in this thread well).

Alerts should still exist to breathe life into the game with active contracts being made available to our mercenary-selves. Alerts should be modified to have longer windows for accepting (4hrs - 48hrs, depending on rarity of reward, with longer windows for more rare items), and once accepted should not expire (with a maximum number of accepted contracts.) Alerts should not appear on the dashboard of the Orbiter (this, oddly enough, was one of the reasons they said they removed alerts, because it was cluttering the dash display - I mean, really?)

Nightwave should still exist, but altered: The shop's inventory should NOT expire. Earned creds should NOT expire. NOW it becomes a system that allows long-term working toward fixed goals, rather than a FOMO-fest. IF Creds must be linked to rank rewards, there should be no rank cap. IMO, creds could be earned through a hybrid of Alerts with Nightwave, where the Nightwave Alerts contain that season's special encounters (fugitives, glass, etc), and reward creds for success.

 

Alerts would continue to keep the world alive, and help the newbies (I pity anyone starting after alerts were removed, sincerely), and they could be integrated into Nightwave.

I don't think DE wants to bring back the highly rewarding alert system (NO, will not concede that they were highly rewarding... I worked 2 jobs and got TONS of valuable stuff... you had to actively ignore all the good rewards if you played more than me, for this to be the case.)

It saddens me that Alerts were removed, instead of refined or integrated.

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On 2020-10-05 at 10:09 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And a single mission might contribute to multiple challenges under nightwave,

"Might."  But probably won't in any meaningful way.  Oh yeah, you got the corrosive kills from that gimmie of a daily while running that other mission that you wouldn't have run if not for chorewave.  Fantastic.  And it doesn't even come close to all of the highly repeated, extremely tedious tasks where the requirements are spending an eternity doing open world activities that you really have no interest or need to do.  Bounties, hunting, all of those open world activities are completely pointless for me at this point.  They're nightwave chores.

 

On 2020-10-05 at 10:09 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

the whole "Omg I missed it it may take weeks before I see it again" is a possibility

No, it's a likelihood.  It takes a week for a shop rotation, stock of things like aura's doesn't repeat consecutively to the best of my knowledge, and is more likely to not repeat on alternating weeks than it is to show up again after just a week.  It almost certainly WILL be weeks if you miss something you want.  Or in the case of the Grendel alt helm, at least a year or more.  The fact that the auras in the store cost NW standing, which is capped, and are no longer attainable through any other means outside of trade means that the quantities floating around in the market are slowly dropping and the price is slowly rising.  A lot of people aren't going to sell an aura they had to spend a limited resource on for the same price it was when you got the aura from just blasting through some BS quick mission when it came around.  That's evidence that points to me being right about NW creating scarcity in the things alerts once offered.

 

On 2020-10-05 at 10:09 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

but it always was under the alerts system, so you failed to make a valid point.

I should know this entire response is futile since you're apparently the type of person that just baselessly dismisses an argument rather than making an actual counter argument against it.  You've literally just contradicted me here without actually backing that up.  The sad part is that you actually made my point for me in your dismissal.  The point of missing something and it taking weeks for it to pop up again is the fact that that's what nightwave was supposed to #*!%ing fix about alerts.  You're literally admitting it has the exact same problem and didn't fix a goddamn thing.  

 

On 2020-10-05 at 10:09 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

the whole "humans have unlimited wants but limited resources, so they need to choose wisely" was obviously lost on you because you seem to think that it means that the world is going to end.

I never had to choose under alerts.  The point you're ignoring is that I'm not complaining about a system in vacuum.  I'm complaining about a system as compared to another.  We had something before that was replaced with "limited resources" despite the only limit being present before was time randomness.  I got way more stuff under alerts than I do with NW.  I've bought more potatoes for plat under NW than I ever had to under alerts.  The fact that those purchases clean out my credits so quickly and exclude me from getting anything else in the store is the whole issue with picking and choosing.  It was not like this before.  I could get everything that popped up while I was playing.  Now I can get one or two things from a week's worth of credits.  The same amount of playtime yields less resources under NW.  I'm fortunate that I have most everything now.  I would absolutely not want to try farming Nitain, auras, potatoes, MR items and cosmetics from the NW store as a new player.  At least most of them don't know how much slower they're gaining things compared to how it was before.  I played a few hours after work and usually a little heavier on the weekends and I still have nitain left from that and got most of the alt helmets from it, as well as the auras and a few spares along with all the MR items.  Now you have to spend those hours doing chores for DE and you still won't get the same amount of stuff in a week.  I had problems with alerts.  Especially how annoying it was to see a notification on the app that there was a potato alert while I was out of the house.  Nightwave isn't any kind of solution to that.  It's just a new set of problems.

 

On 2020-10-05 at 10:09 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

by doing the things you want to do.

Except this is all clearly not the stuff I want to do, and not the stuff many others who don't like chorewave, want to do.  I don't want to run Profit Taker, it's a broken, buggy mess.  I don't want to run a Hydrolyst capture, they also almost always bug out when you aren't host, I hate trying to find a group in that elitist community and running pubs is basically signing up to waste your time because even if I plan on hard carrying, they will flat out screw it up anyway possible.  I don't want to run NINE invasion missions for a measly 4,500 standing.  I need nothing from those missions, so it's just 10+ minutes of my time wasted for less than half a rank that will not provide enough credits to get anything but nitain.  I hate the plains and if you look at the bug forums, Fortuna is crashing consistently for a lot of console players.  Why the hell would I want to run bounties that will probably drop me thermal sludge (great drop tables in those bounties.) or some other useless BS when it's very likely going to just crash me out of the game and not count my progress (which it has done before.  The last time I did this bounty it wiped my progress at 4/5.) and just screw me over and waste my time instead?  Chorewave is a timewaste, just like the extended waiting periods they added to Iso Vaults, and the endless waiting in the Latrox bounty and all the other waiting and time wasted not playing that they keep adding to the game which I'm sure you'll blindly defend as well with some obnoxious "example" that doesn't actually pertain to the situation being discussed because that's the only kind of argument you can make.  Heaven forbid you stick to the subject and argue that, instead of making asinine metaphors about how DE are our parents and we should be grateful for the allowance we get that I have literally proven they increased our chores for.  Very telling, by the way.

 

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On 2020-10-06 at 2:04 PM, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

NO, will not concede that they were highly rewarding... I worked 2 jobs and got TONS of valuable stuff... you had to actively ignore all the good rewards if you played more than me, for this to be the case

I really want to know where everyone else was, or how little they were playing for them to say that alerts offered less than NW.  People are literally claiming that the mathematically provable increase in work per reward is acceptable because NW is somehow more rewarding.  I do not understand how.  I've been playing for 3 years.  With my time in-game it averages out to about 2 hours a day.  Obviously there are plenty of days where I didn't play and also days where I decided to be a lazy POS and do nothing but game all day on a day off, but on average it was a few hours each day, not 12 hours every day for 3 years straight of Warframe. 

By the time NW was brought in, I had everything that required Nitain built, and I had 50ish left over.  I had every Alt helm that I didn't think was hideous, a reactor on every frame (having nearly every frame in the game at that point) and catalysts on most of the weapons I really liked.  Every Aura from alerts.  All the rare nightmare mods with abysmal drop chances that used to run as nightmare alerts for a guaranteed drop that you can no longer get through any means other than plat or praying for a 2% drop chance from an extremely time-limited mission.  The main thing I need from the NW store now is potatoes.  I'm not arguing for my sake here.  I'm arguing for the sheer number of newbies I've had to tell are SOL on several things because of the way NW works.

"Sorry I don't have any extra of that aura.  It's NW only, so you'll have to wait or buy it from someone."  And the price IS going up in TC and the market.

"Sorry I can't taxi you into PT, you have to be max standing with SU and complete several story bounties before you can get in the fight."

Explaining what RJ is, and then having to explain what Intrinsics are and that they cannot get hard-carried for the Forward Artillery act because they have to be the one to fire the shot, which means they need Gunnery Intrinsics, which is a little bit of a slog to be carrying someone through so that you can then carry them through a NW act for a pittance of standing.  Watching people in chat pop up asking for help with the Rising Tide quest every time RJ NW acts pop up, only to explain to them that it's solo only is sad for everyone involved.  

Trying to explain what the hell a Kuva Lich is without spoiling the game for new players is always frustrating because "Don't worry about it yet" isn't something most people accept.  NW even has minor spoilers.  Another point for alerts.

"Nitain is NW only, unless you want to rely on a 1% drop from caches.  You have to spend your credits on it if you want to build 'x' because you can't trade for it or buy it with plat."  This conversation happens CONSTANTLY in alliance, recruit, Q&A, TC and with new players I end up talking to in random missions that realize the random MR29 in squad is willing to answer game questions.  They have almost guaranteed spent their credits on MR items, auras, cosmetics and potatoes by the time this conversation is had because there is no warning that the thing you need to build half the game is NW only and NW credits are finite.

I know people that started under alerts but NW came out when they were still new players and it literally caused them to quit.  A few of them have come back, saw Nora chattering incessantly about something, had 'nam flashbacks and promptly quit again.  I can't blame them.  

They need to uncap the ranks, balance down the costs in the store and/or increase the credits per rank, and bring alerts back in conjunction with NW.  Maybe have less alerts, but for longer.  Maybe don't include potatoes in the alerts, but all the alt helms, auras, BPs, nightmare mods that used to be there and aren't anymore, etc would still be there, which would decrease the currently increased grind for newer players.  I honestly don't even care if the grind for me getting potatoes and Kuva from NW doesn't change much because I don't need them much, and I have plat to spare for potatoes.  They are provably screwing over newer players and people are defending it, though.

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Over complicated and undercooked....

DE made it clear to me why we have these problems and it was during an explanation in the helminth dev stream. 

Replacing Mesa's 1, they took the thought of her 1 it not being S#&$ but mesa being popular?

Gamers are from Mars, dev's are from venus!?

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3 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I really want to know where everyone else was, or how little they were playing for them to say that alerts offered less than NW.  People are literally claiming that the mathematically provable increase in work per reward is acceptable because NW is somehow more rewarding.  I do not understand how.  I've been playing for 3 years.  With my time in-game it averages out to about 2 hours a day.  Obviously there are plenty of days where I didn't play and also days where I decided to be a lazy POS and do nothing but game all day on a day off, but on average it was a few hours each day, not 12 hours every day for 3 years straight of Warframe. 

My perspective: nightwave does not offer more than alerts did, it offers things more reliably. Progress might be slower, but it's guaranteed and measured. You're no longer reliant on the whims of some RNG bullS#&$ in order to get what you need - I remember that it took a full year for the stars to align properly and generate a vauban systems when I was a) not working b) not sleeping, c) not eating, d) at my computer and e) not playing some other game.

I got absolutely furious when nitain became a thing and started gating progress behind me dropping everything and rushing to bark at the feet of this damn game. If, for instance, I'm leading a squad in Planetside 2, I am not going to just alt-F4 because some other game says "I am an entertainment product and therefore demand that you drop whatever you're doing and service me right now in order to make progress".

3 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

"Nitain is NW only, unless you want to rely on a 1% drop from caches.  You have to spend your credits on it if you want to build 'x' because you can't trade for it or buy it with plat."  This conversation happens CONSTANTLY in alliance, recruit, Q&A, TC and with new players I end up talking to in random missions that realize the random MR29 in squad is willing to answer game questions.  They have almost guaranteed spent their credits on MR items, auras, cosmetics and potatoes by the time this conversation is had because there is no warning that the thing you need to build half the game is NW only and NW credits are finite.

That is a huge problem. The almost complete absence of documentation has been a gigantic issue from the very start and it's not improved one bit. Alerts avoided that by being independent events for potatoes, nitain, helmets and such, but they were not a perfect solution.

The spoilers? Yeah, that's yet another issue. I'm always a bit paranoid about using my small child mode for energy whenever I see a rank 6 in missions. This certainly can't help and it dovetails quite well into the complete absence of documentation when some poor newbie thinks "fine, let's kill one of these lich things, it can't be too hard" and has absolutely no idea what they're getting in to. Especially when a lot of players say "hurr durr rank it up immediately whenever you get the chance" and this MR 8 player with a half-levelled serration is stuck trying to deal with an almost unkillable rank 5 lich.

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10 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

"Might."  But probably won't in any meaningful way.  Oh yeah, you got the corrosive kills from that gimmie of a daily while running that other mission that you wouldn't have run if not for chorewave.  Fantastic.  And it doesn't even come close to all of the highly repeated, extremely tedious tasks where the requirements are spending an eternity doing open world activities that you really have no interest or need to do.  Bounties, hunting, all of those open world activities are completely pointless for me at this point.  They're nightwave chores.

And you're wrong again. You seem to think that the only way for a thing to be meaningful is to give you what you want right away, hence your entire argument. Nightwave allows us to hit max tier through extremely casual play, and I am sure that most of us remember that were were fully able to use a single mission to contribute to two or three challenges at a time. 

You treat nightwave as a chore, and that's exactly what you get out of it. Many of us take a glance at the challenges and decide what we're going to skip, and which ones we are doing passively, as well as which ones we'll be willing to go out of our way for. 

Again we're being triply rewarded so absolutely no problem with doing that. 

10 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

No, it's a likelihood.  It takes a week for a shop rotation, stock of things like aura's doesn't repeat consecutively to the best of my knowledge, and is more likely to not repeat on alternating weeks than it is to show up again after just a week.  It almost certainly WILL be weeks if you miss something you want.  Or in the case of the Grendel alt helm, at least a year or more.  The fact that the auras in the store cost NW standing, which is capped, and are no longer attainable through any other means outside of trade means that the quantities floating around in the market are slowly dropping and the price is slowly rising.  A lot of people aren't going to sell an aura they had to spend a limited resource on for the same price it was when you got the aura from just blasting through some BS quick mission when it came around.  That's evidence that points to me being right about NW creating scarcity in the things alerts once offered.

Translation: "Ohhhh noooooo! It's the end of the world if you don't get what you want, when you want it, whatever will you do!"

Again that's a ridiculous stance because with alerts it was also a case of if you miss it, you have no idea how long it will take to show back up. And seriously you're simultaneously complaining about a thing taking weeks to show back up, and the season lasting for too many weeks? That works in your head? How? 

 

10 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I should know this entire response is futile since you're apparently the type of person that just baselessly dismisses an argument rather than making an actual counter argument against it.  You've literally just contradicted me here without actually backing that up.  The sad part is that you actually made my point for me in your dismissal.  The point of missing something and it taking weeks for it to pop up again is the fact that that's what nightwave was supposed to #*!%ing fix about alerts.  You're literally admitting it has the exact same problem and didn't fix a goddamn thing.  

 

I never had to choose under alerts.  The point you're ignoring is that I'm not complaining about a system in vacuum.  I'm complaining about a system as compared to another.  We had something before that was replaced with "limited resources" despite the only limit being present before was time randomness.  I got way more stuff under alerts than I do with NW.  I've bought more potatoes for plat under NW than I ever had to under alerts.  The fact that those purchases clean out my credits so quickly and exclude me from getting anything else in the store is the whole issue with picking and choosing.  It was not like this before.  I could get everything that popped up while I was playing.  Now I can get one or two things from a week's worth of credits.  The same amount of playtime yields less resources under NW.  I'm fortunate that I have most everything now.  I would absolutely not want to try farming Nitain, auras, potatoes, MR items and cosmetics from the NW store as a new player.  At least most of them don't know how much slower they're gaining things compared to how it was before.  I played a few hours after work and usually a little heavier on the weekends and I still have nitain left from that and got most of the alt helmets from it, as well as the auras and a few spares along with all the MR items.  Now you have to spend those hours doing chores for DE and you still won't get the same amount of stuff in a week.  I had problems with alerts.  Especially how annoying it was to see a notification on the app that there was a potato alert while I was out of the house.  Nightwave isn't any kind of solution to that.  It's just a new set of problems.

No I dismissed your ridiculous argument by showing why it was ridiculous. If you figure out how sentences work you'd know that breaking up a sentence means that you can't see how the parts work together. Try to read and reply to the whole sentence next time. 

 

10 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Except this is all clearly not the stuff I want to do, and not the stuff many others who don't like chorewave, want to do.  I don't want to run Profit Taker, it's a broken, buggy mess.  I don't want to run a Hydrolyst capture, they also almost always bug out when you aren't host, I hate trying to find a group in that elitist community and running pubs is basically signing up to waste your time because even if I plan on hard carrying, they will flat out screw it up anyway possible.  I don't want to run NINE invasion missions for a measly 4,500 standing.  I need nothing from those missions, so it's just 10+ minutes of my time wasted for less than half a rank that will not provide enough credits to get anything but nitain.  I hate the plains and if you look at the bug forums, Fortuna is crashing consistently for a lot of console players.  Why the hell would I want to run bounties that will probably drop me thermal sludge (great drop tables in those bounties.) or some other useless BS when it's very likely going to just crash me out of the game and not count my progress (which it has done before.  The last time I did this bounty it wiped my progress at 4/5.) and just screw me over and waste my time instead?  Chorewave is a timewaste, just like the extended waiting periods they added to Iso Vaults, and the endless waiting in the Latrox bounty and all the other waiting and time wasted not playing that they keep adding to the game which I'm sure you'll blindly defend as well with some obnoxious "example" that doesn't actually pertain to the situation being discussed because that's the only kind of argument you can make.  Heaven forbid you stick to the subject and argue that, instead of making asinine metaphors about how DE are our parents and we should be grateful for the allowance we get that I have literally proven they increased our chores for.  Very telling, by the way.

 

So, don't do it. Problem = Not a problem. 

Many of us have skipped many challenges because we just don't feel like doing them at the time. We're being handsomely rewarded for doing what we want to do. 

And seriously I can see how you wouldn't understand the idea of a limit to other people's generosity to you, but that's a you problem. Not everyone has an overdeveloped sense of false entitlement, and the audacity to demand that they be given even more free stuff, while complaining about having to do trivial tasks to be rewarded.

Maybe sit down and think about how you would react if you gave a bunch of stuff to a person, only to have them demand more, while complaining about what they were asked to do in return?

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Push lever, get pellet?

Yup. 

But some of the test subjects seem to have chosen to stomp on the pellets repeatedly, gorge themselves, and are now sharpening their torches, lightning their pitchforks, demanding more pellets be added immediately, and insisting that the lever be made automatic so that they don't need to bother to press it anymore. 

🤷‍♂️

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On 2020-10-03 at 1:44 PM, Felsagger said:

I don't expect everybody to agree. 

If it is so easy what you propose? 

It's a game mode. There are other priorities that are taking attention. Waiting for something this trivial doesn't hurt. 

1) that's good, not gonna happen.
2) already made proposal
3) already addressed the argument "doesn't affect me therefore it's not important"

 

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En 26/9/2020 a las 11:14, (PS4)guzmantt1977 dijo:

👆 Pay very close attention to the following quote 👇

Regarding the still needing Nitain, what did you buy this season with all the nightwave creds that you got?

Do you mind what I buy or don't buy with the nightwave creds? No

The problem was not buying with platinum or nw creds. The problem is that I don't earn  nw creds, can you understand? fanboy

we won't earn credits until the end of the year, when episode 5 comes out and we have to fight for a sword with Nihil?

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41 minutes ago, .Millennium. said:

Do you mind what I buy or don't buy with the nightwave creds? No

The problem was not buying with platinum or nw creds. The problem is that I don't earn  nw creds, can you understand? fanboy

we won't earn credits until the end of the year, when episode 5 comes out and we have to fight for a sword with Nihil?

Hint you can't get nitain anywhere else. The rest of the stuff you complained about, you can still get through farming plat as I described in the post you just quoted. So it's not a matter of what I mind, but of what you mind. If you squandered your creds on cosmetics, when what you needed was Nitain, reactors, and catalysts, then that's very much a you problem. I've given you advice on how to solve the problem for 2 out of the 3 things you complained about, but all you want to do is whine about what you can't do?

And don't call people "fanboy" when it's only by comparison to the wannabe edgelords you are trying to emulate, you'll just end up being embarassed.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh boy, more insolent rambling where you blindly defend the game and prove you can't do basic #*!%ing math.  Talking to shills is like talking to a #*!%ing wall.

You mean the kind of math that would have told you a month into the current season that you'd run out of tiers well before the foreseeable fifth act, and that you didn't need to do all of those "chores" you hate so much to still hit max rank? (Or if someone had paid any attention to the previous acts and intermissions they would have realised that well before the start of the current season.)

You right, people who fail at basic math, are dumb AF. Worse some of them act really entitled for some reason. 🙄

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16 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

1) that's good, not gonna happen.
2) already made proposal
3) already addressed the argument "doesn't affect me therefore it's not important"

 

 

It's irrelevant. NW is not that important. Eventually DE will finish the current chapter. The Pandemic halted everything and changed lots of plans. 

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On 2020-10-06 at 5:48 AM, Loza03 said:

Of course. This is a long-term, perpetual experience. All games of this nature must include grind. It's simply a fact of life - it is impossible for devs to produce literally thousands of hours of pre-crafted content that's fresh and new. You want a game that lasts more than 30 hours? This is the experience you sign up for. What matters is whether that experience is consumer-friendly, and manages to achieve that goal in a fair manner.

So, instead of RNG where a player could hypothetically  go weeks, even months without being lucky enough to see a potato alert they wanted, it's replaced by a set amount of effort and investment to receive it.

Alerts were also gated, by starchart progression. Sure, you can get taxi'd, but, as you say, they had a hard time getting that without someone hard carrying them through a mission which has much higher level enemies than they're actually prepared for.

Whilst a player would undoubtedly be new and have most need of these items, they would also very rapidly become capable of acquiring them, since for the most part, the more heavily gated ones are elite, and many of the rest aren't that far down the progression tree (certainly no further than the end of the starchart). And of course - a new player is not guaranteed (indeed, quite unlikely) to be willing to nolife the game to the point of optimal alert behaviour anyway.

'if' you saw an alert you wanted.

Because lets be real here, 'if' was the big question. Even though the RNG is still there, you have to not play for an entire week to not spot the specific aura you want, whilst under alerts it could easily be just as long and 'oops! You were at school, or asleep, or at work, or eating, or playing something else with your friends. Tough luck.' The RNG is still there, sure, but it's much more friendly on account of the fact that it is far harder to actually miss out on.

And sure, you can't get squat after you hit cap. But that's also a lot of stuff that, with work, you are guaranteed to get. and, by the same token as your earlier point, new players are also the least likely to hit that cap. They get their goodies throughout. The people most likely to hit that cap are the people who are least likely to need it. Bear in mind, the Nightwave system was designed for the Wolf of Saturn Six level of investment, not Glassmaker. Minimal new assets for the story, just a couple recorded voicelines and five panoramas. People asked for a more complex, harder-to-develop Nightwave which causes further problems for the system.

In terms of optimal play, yes. However, that optimal play is vastly more consumer friendly to achieve with Nightwave, so far more people are able to play in that optimal way in a healthier way.

To add further to your points - One thing I see people "argue" is "WhAt AbOuT AuRA MOdS?!"

As if they have to buy like 10 of 'em every NW season =_=...    You only need 1 for yourself.  If you want to help others get theirs, help them run the simple NW missions to get credits.  If you have spare credits at the end of NW, buy some extra Auras if you like to have 'em handy.  It's literally a non-issue.

------------

Also, since someone else mentioned "math" (I think it was someone arguing with @(PS4)guzmantt1977) , let's do some, shall we?

Nitain = 5x Nitain for 15 NW credits.

1 Prestige Rank in NW = 15 NW credits.

90 Prestige Ranks (Ranks after the initial 30).

1 Prestige Rank = 5x Nitain (since it equals 15 NW creds)

90 x 5 = 450 Nitain.

You can get, currently, in JUST this season of NW, 450 NITAIN!  

I'll grant you you may want other things, too, but.... that's like TWICE/TRIPLE the Nitain you'll ever need!

AND once you've got it, you NEVER need to use Credits on it again!

So, HOW can anyone try to make a serious argument of "DE is gating the Nitain from us!"??

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:


Also, since someone else mentioned "math" (I think it was someone arguing with @(PS4)guzmantt1977) , let's do some, shall we?

Nitain = 5x Nitain for 15 NW credits.

1 Prestige Rank in NW = 15 NW credits.

90 Prestige Ranks (Ranks after the initial 30).

1 Prestige Rank = 5x Nitain (since it equals 15 NW creds)

90 x 5 = 450 Nitain.

You can get, currently, in JUST this season of NW, 450 NITAIN!  

I'll grant you you may want other things, too, but.... that's like TWICE/TRIPLE the Nitain you'll ever need!

AND once you've got it, you NEVER need to use Credits on it again!

So, HOW can anyone try to make a serious argument of "DE is gating the Nitain from us!"??

 

I think its only 400 creds for the first 30 tiers, then 15 each for the subsequent 60. Still a metric crapload of nitain if that's what you want. And most people can grasp the concept of limited resources, and unlimited wants leading to having to carefully choose what you want to spend your resources on. We always had to try and accumulate nitain over time and never had it drop 5 at a time and it took weeks or months to get enough to get what we needed, depending on how often we played. The new system means that we absolutely can complete most of the weeks challenges in just a few play sessions and for many of us the majority can be completed in just a couple of hours.

(Ironically the people who are most likely to whine about maxing the nightwave standings and not being able to get more creds tend to be more advanced players who don't actually need the vast majority of the offerings, so they are just being silly in my opinion.) 

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

To add further to your points - One thing I see people "argue" is "WhAt AbOuT AuRA MOdS?!"

As if they have to buy like 10 of 'em every NW season =_=...    You only need 1 for yourself.  If you want to help others get theirs, help them run the simple NW missions to get credits.  If you have spare credits at the end of NW, buy some extra Auras if you like to have 'em handy.  It's literally a non-issue.

------------

Also, since someone else mentioned "math" (I think it was someone arguing with @(PS4)guzmantt1977) , let's do some, shall we?

Nitain = 5x Nitain for 15 NW credits.

1 Prestige Rank in NW = 15 NW credits.

90 Prestige Ranks (Ranks after the initial 30).

1 Prestige Rank = 5x Nitain (since it equals 15 NW creds)

90 x 5 = 450 Nitain.

You can get, currently, in JUST this season of NW, 450 NITAIN!  

I'll grant you you may want other things, too, but.... that's like TWICE/TRIPLE the Nitain you'll ever need!

AND once you've got it, you NEVER need to use Credits on it again!

So, HOW can anyone try to make a serious argument of "DE is gating the Nitain from us!"??

 

Imagine cherry picking literally one thing and using ONLY that data point as your entire argument and thinking that you've accomplished anything. 

Let's keep that math you're so eager for rolling.  It takes a over a week of completing every single challenge in NW to get the ranks to get a reactor or catalyst.  A potato takes 75 creds which is 5 rank ups.  You get less than 4.5 ranks in a weeks' challenges.  Imagine playing all week long under alerts and having literally no alerts pop up but one potato alert.  People would have been livid, but that's how it goes if you need a potato from the store now.  All the credits you got that week now equal a potato.  Under alerts, playing a little while most days of the week you could have gotten a potato, a couple helms, bonus resources, rare nightmare mods that are no longer attainable other than praying for a 2% drop chance from a time gated mission, several auras and a handful of nitain.  Were the potatoes rarer than popping up every week?  Yes.  But I very rarely needed to buy one with plat and now I pretty much always do because the store economy is trash.  Now it's over a week of chores for a single reactor or catalyst and before it was literally one mission.  There are challenges where a single challenge might be 10 missions.  There are 20 missions required this week. 

  • 1 trip to the plains to get rare fish (which will require bait to be expended.  Never had to spend any resources on alerts.)
  • 1 trip to the vallis to mine
  • 3 spy missions
  • 5 Simaris target scans
  • exploiter
  • 3 sorties @ 3 missions each.


I wasn't paying any attention to the sorties this week but for your sake let's say spy was in every sortie you ran.  Down to 17 missions.  You might get super lucky and get a Simaris scan during sortie.  You could almost argue the mining and fishing don't count even though they take as long or longer than a regular mission.  You're still going to be sitting around 15 missions to complete the challenges this week.  And you can't even buy a potato with the credits you get from those missions and this is a pretty light week as far as chores are concerned.  The mission count can be well over 30 required depending on the acts.  At the end of the week you'll have 4 ranks from that weeks' challenges which is 60 credits.  That's an alt helm and an aura for all week.  Maybe 3 auras, OR two skins instead.  Can't get Vauban for it.  Can't get a potato for it.  That's some pretty crappy math on DE's part and your part as well, for thinking Nitain was the only metric to be used.  

Consider alt helms at 35 creds each.  That's more than 2 rank ups for a single alt helm.  Which is, at a minimum 3 missions that fall under the elite category, meaning everything from Profit Taker, Exploiter, a full Tricap, to a few of the easy ones like a sub 90 second capture.  Minimum of 3 missions which will most likely be harder, gated content to get a single alt helm, and that's assuming you have 5 creds left over, because 3 elite weeklies is only 2 ranks, which isn't enough to buy a single alt helm.  3 missions that are probably gated off content vs 1 mission that's just regular star chart for the old alt helm alerts.  What about that math, is that one adding up for you?

What about all those huge bundles of credits from the first 30 ranks!  Yeah!  That one will get me.  It's 400 credits total, which is less than the 15 credits per rank for bonus ranks.  That math sucks too.

And then there's the rank cap.  You can get a maximum of 1750 credits from Nightwave.  For however many months they drag this out for, that's how much you've got to spend in the store if you cap your ranks out, which several new players flat out won't be able to do.  1750 credits for MR items, catalysts, reactors, nitain, alt helms, auras, and weapon skins.  1750 credits that newer players will not be able to get all of because of how much of the content is gated off for them, when they're the ones that need store access the most.  They had access under alerts, even if they had to ask for a taxi.  People are much more likely to run a taxi to a simple alert than they are to hard carry a bunch of newbies through a full tricap or exploiter.

Literally the only argument that Nightwave could even try to make is the fact that if and only if you happen to need and want to do all the challenges in a week, then and only then are you getting NW rewards for things you planned on already doing and it might feel like something for nothing.  That is almost never the case for myself and any of the higher level players I know.  Other than a certain type of person in these forums I don't know a single person that doesn't think of Nightwave as tedious chores.  The problem with this argument however is that because of the costs present in the store, no matter how easy the challenges and how much you love doing Nightwave BS, you mathematically absolutely cannot come close to getting the same amount of stuff out of the NW store in a week's time as you could from alerts just by playing regularly during a week, which NW is making you do anyway most of the time.  You flat out, unarguably do not gain credits fast enough to get anywhere close to the same amount of rewards in the same amount of time as under alerts.

Literally the only way NW is more rewarding is if you were only playing during the unluckiest hour of the day every single day and only playing then.  If you're the most casual of all casuals I could see NW being more appealing, other than the fact that it's often gated off pretty hard to very casual players.

And let me address the "yOu oNLy nEED One aUra tHo" BS.  Sure, after you have all the auras and helms and MR items and an abundance of nitain, you don't have to spend your credits on that stuff anymore.  That leaves new stuff they introduce, potatoes and kuva.  That's where I am.  I don't need any of the other stuff anymore.  There are 15-20 missions this week.  For less than 1 potato's worth of credits.  It was 1 mission before for a potato.  For people like me, who don't need to do any of the things NW makes you do, there are 15+ missions I would otherwise not be running and don't want to run replacing 1 mission in order to get a potato.  It's that, or 10k kuva for about a week's worth of credits, which I can get faster elsewhere.  So the argument you people like to make there is "Then you don't have to do NW."

Sure.  But under alerts, if I saw a catalyst alert or a forma alert, or wanted to stockpile nitain, or pick up a copy of a rare mod that a friend has been looking for, I could do one mission for one reward and be done with it and go back to what I wanted to do.  I do not get those beneficial things anymore.  Those are gone, unless I interact with a system that I have proven to you a dozen different ways is more work for less rewards.  So my options are "do a bunch of chores to have access to the things that used to be 1 mission for each item" or "do not get any of the things you used to get easily."

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Imagine cherry picking literally one thing and using ONLY that data point as your entire argument and thinking that you've accomplished anything. 

Let's keep that math you're so eager for rolling.  It takes a over a week of completing every single challenge in NW to get the ranks to get a reactor or catalyst.  A potato takes 75 creds which is 5 rank ups.  You get less than 4.5 ranks in a weeks' challenges.  Imagine playing all week long under alerts and having literally no alerts pop up but one potato alert.  People would have been livid, but that's how it goes if you need a potato from the store now.  All the credits you got that week now equal a potato.  Under alerts, playing a little while most days of the week you could have gotten a potato, a couple helms, bonus resources, rare nightmare mods that are no longer attainable other than praying for a 2% drop chance from a time gated mission, several auras and a handful of nitain.  Were the potatoes rarer than popping up every week?  Yes.  But I very rarely needed to buy one with plat and now I pretty much always do because the store economy is trash.  Now it's over a week of chores for a single reactor or catalyst and before it was literally one mission.  There are challenges where a single challenge might be 10 missions.  There are 20 missions required this week. 

  • 1 trip to the plains to get rare fish (which will require bait to be expended.  Never had to spend any resources on alerts.)
  • 1 trip to the vallis to mine
  • 3 spy missions
  • 5 Simaris target scans
  • exploiter
  • 3 sorties @ 3 missions each.


I wasn't paying any attention to the sorties this week but for your sake let's say spy was in every sortie you ran.  Down to 17 missions.  You might get super lucky and get a Simaris scan during sortie.  You could almost argue the mining and fishing don't count even though they take as long or longer than a regular mission.  You're still going to be sitting around 15 missions to complete the challenges this week.  And you can't even buy a potato with the credits you get from those missions and this is a pretty light week as far as chores are concerned.  The mission count can be well over 30 required depending on the acts.  At the end of the week you'll have 4 ranks from that weeks' challenges which is 60 credits.  That's an alt helm and an aura for all week.  Maybe 3 auras, OR two skins instead.  Can't get Vauban for it.  Can't get a potato for it.  That's some pretty crappy math on DE's part and your part as well, for thinking Nitain was the only metric to be used.  

Consider alt helms at 35 creds each.  That's more than 2 rank ups for a single alt helm.  Which is, at a minimum 3 missions that fall under the elite category, meaning everything from Profit Taker, Exploiter, a full Tricap, to a few of the easy ones like a sub 90 second capture.  Minimum of 3 missions which will most likely be harder, gated content to get a single alt helm, and that's assuming you have 5 creds left over, because 3 elite weeklies is only 2 ranks, which isn't enough to buy a single alt helm.  3 missions that are probably gated off content vs 1 mission that's just regular star chart for the old alt helm alerts.  What about that math, is that one adding up for you?

What about all those huge bundles of credits from the first 30 ranks!  Yeah!  That one will get me.  It's 400 credits total, which is less than the 15 credits per rank for bonus ranks.  That math sucks too.

And then there's the rank cap.  You can get a maximum of 1300 credits from Nightwave.  For however many months they drag this out for, that's how much you've got to spend in the store if you cap your ranks out, which several new players flat out won't be able to do.  1300 credits for MR items, catalysts, reactors, nitain, alt helms, auras, and weapon skins.  1300 credits that newer players will not be able to get all of because of how much of the content is gated off for them, when they're the ones that need store access the most.  They had access under alerts, even if they had to ask for a taxi.  People are much more likely to run a taxi to a simple alert than they are to hard carry a bunch of newbies through a full tricap or exploiter.

Literally the only argument that Nightwave could even try to make is the fact that if and only if you happen to need and want to do all the challenges in a week, then and only then are you getting NW rewards for things you planned on already doing and it might feel like something for nothing.  That is almost never the case for myself and any of the higher level players I know.  Other than a certain type of person in these forums I don't know a single person that doesn't think of Nightwave as tedious chores.  The problem with this argument however is that because of the costs present in the store, no matter how easy the challenges and how much you love doing Nightwave BS, you mathematically absolutely cannot come close to getting the same amount of stuff out of the NW store in a week's time as you could from alerts just by playing regularly during a week, which NW is making you do anyway most of the time.  You flat out, unarguably do not gain credits fast enough to get anywhere close to the same amount of rewards in the same amount of time as under alerts.

Literally the only way NW is more rewarding is if you were only playing during the unluckiest hour of the day every single day and only playing then.  If you're the most casual of all casuals I could see NW being more appealing, other than the fact that it's often gated off pretty hard to very casual players.

 

Yeah, you know I have often thought to myself, "I need to buy basic food stuffs with my limited salary which isn't going to cover all of the supplies I would like to get" and then complained about how expensive the caviar is in the supermarket and the fact that having bought a luxury item I could no longer afford to buy the stuff I actually needed. 

Oh wait! I never did that, because that would have been a ridiculous thing to do. Now what I'm trying to figure out is why you wrote such a long post complaining about not being able to spend an infinite amount of creds on the necessities and the luxury items too, despite your seasonal earnings being limited. 

The system was never intended to give people everything immediately. New players are going to need to focus on the nitain, potatoes, mods, Vauban, and the weapons. Veterans won't need the majority of that and can spend on the high value items instead. This is pretty much common sense, isn't it? 

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What I take away from this is: Guz isn't arguing that Nightwave is BETTER than Alerts, he's just arguing that we should be happy little peasants and accept the pittance that is now rationed out to us in Nightwave. And that we shouldn't want more, because we'd be considered whiny children to him, and the DE-parents know best. You've gotta learn life lessons in a game, in his world. And you can't ask to make the game better, because he seems to think DE already knows what better looks like (even if it's demonstrably worse - your milage may vary, based on play style, obviously.)

It's like bashing one's head into a brick wall, because the goals differ, and he will continue to think he has won the argument and nothing can stand in contradiction. Long ago, I thought I could make some headway in a long past thread about Nightwave... feels good to post and bring forth reason and logic to stand against the insanity one sees on the forums sometimes... but I have no illusions that I will be able to change minds, no matter what I say. (good thing those minds don't really need to be changed, so I don't sweat it.)

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

What I take away from this is: Guz isn't arguing that Nightwave is BETTER than Alerts, he's just arguing that we should be happy little peasants and accept the pittance that is now rationed out to us in Nightwave. And that we shouldn't want more, because we'd be considered whiny children to him, and the DE-parents know best. You've gotta learn life lessons in a game, in his world. And you can't ask to make the game better, because he seems to think DE already knows what better looks like (even if it's demonstrably worse - your milage may vary, based on play style, obviously.)

It's like bashing one's head into a brick wall, because the goals differ, and he will continue to think he has won the argument and nothing can stand in contradiction. Long ago, I thought I could make some headway in a long past thread about Nightwave... feels good to post and bring forth reason and logic to stand against the insanity one sees on the forums sometimes... but I have no illusions that I will be able to change minds, no matter what I say. (good thing those minds don't really need to be changed, so I don't sweat it.)

Would be better if you actually read back a bit. Your very first sentence is wrong, in multiple ways. But the comparison to whiny children is pretty apt. 

Alerts sucked. We couldn't do the majority, because of availability, and the majority of players probably ignored most of the the ones we could do because we already had the rewards and they weren't worth doing. Nightwave gives us the ability to do the challenges when we want, how we want, and where we want. We can pick and choose which reward we want from the rotating pool, and each season brings us something new, not to mention that there are a lot of awesome rewards in the first thirty tiers. So yes, nightwave is objectively better than alerts. 

And no, I'm really not impressed when someone goes full out no-life grinding to hit maximum tier, collects a metric butt load of their chosen rewards (many of which came out of the market being sold for plat) and then demands that they be given more free stuff, while simultaneously whining about how much they hate the chorewave. They could easily have picked to do a fraction of the challenges in any given week and still hit maximum rank. And they would have known that since season one. 

I do have sympathy for the newbs who don't yet know how the nightwave seasons, or others parts of the game, work. That's why I made it a point to try buy a few spare mods to give to the newbies if needed. They may fall for the cosmetics and waste the limited number of creds that they are able to earn. But a hallmark of human intelligence is the ability to learn from their mistakes, and next season, not only would they be in a position to advance to a higher tier, but they'd be more familiar with the relative values of the offerings. In other words, they'll learn, and do better the next time. One would have to be a really spectacular form of obtuse to have been here for more than the current season and not have realized that racing to get all of the possible tiers well in advance of the end of the season would be a silly thing to do. 

But the whole "Give it to me, I want it now" attitude didn't work out particularly well for Veruca Salt, and lots of Tenno should have learned the life lesson that the book and movies taught. But clearly some bad eggs never learn. 

 

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