Loki Rework

[1up20xdey6]

3 hours ago, syl42 said:

is there any use for Switch Teleport?

My first thought would be to switch with the decoy to bypass laser. The other use is if you want to troll a player.

I would merge this skill with Decoy. Tap to cast Decoy, hold to teleport. And tap to cast a new Decoy. This would give a way to move "faster" like Nova. If there is no Decoy, you could switch to the target and keep the original design.

Then it would open up for something else that isn't the prime skill for subsume replacement.

I say you do make a very good point here.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

A combination of Decoy and Nyx's Chaos. I think it fits in the theme of Loki, being a trickster.

Oh sure it fits the theme, but having this ability in the same kit as Decoy is gonna make one of the two abilities redundant, and considering how hard it is for enemies to kill each other, Decoy is gonna be the loser here. If Decoy's only use is to be teleported with, you may as well just delete the Decoy entirely and allow Switch Teleport to freely teleport, while keeping the switching aspect as an effect if cast on targets.

 

[LagartoPunkarra]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Oh sure it fits the theme, but having this ability in the same kit as Decoy is gonna make one of the two abilities redundant, and considering how hard it is for enemies to kill each other, Decoy is gonna be the loser here. If Decoy's only use is to be teleported with, you may as well just delete the Decoy entirely and allow Switch Teleport to freely teleport, while keeping the switching aspect as an effect if cast on targets.

Well, Decoy has a trick that the ability I made doesn't have. You can place Decoy in places that enemies can't reach or shoot.

Also, you can't have enough aggro switchers for Loki (specially mine that is really squishy lol)

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

58 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Well, Decoy has a trick that the ability I made doesn't have. You can place Decoy in places that enemies can't reach or shoot.

Also, you can't have enough aggro switchers for Loki (specially mine that is really squishy lol)

Enemies have way higher EHP (Effective Health Pool) values than players do, and their damage is balanced around the EHP values of the player, so it's pretty low. For enemy damage to be made effective against other enemies, it needs to multiplied by a lot to match the enemy's high EHP. The reason Nyx is terrible at doing damage is because she utilizes enemy damage with no multipliers. Her only source of multiplying enemy damage, through Mind Control, shows the other thing that makes enemy damage weak: The AI is terrible and can't hit anything consistently. The low base damage, combined with poor AI, against EHP that's higher than what they are designed to deal with, means that the target being attacked isn't going to die.

So you take your ability, which has no multipliers for enemy damage, and is still subject to poor AI, and you try to make that enemy damage kill an enemy with tons of EHP (especially if it's a heavier unit). That enemy isn't going to die, which invalidates any clever placement you could give to Decoy. 

And what do you even get from having another aggro switcher? Loki doesn't have a threat level since he's invisible, so there aren't any other targets for the enemies to shoot besides your enemy decoy. You don't accomplish anything by placing a second decoy if the first one can't die. It just means another target is being shot by the already distracted horde of enemies.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-06-15 at 2:08 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

And what do you even get from having another aggro switcher? Loki doesn't have a threat level since he's invisible, so there aren't any other targets for the enemies to shoot besides your enemy decoy. You don't accomplish anything by placing a second decoy if the first one can't die. It just means another target is being shot by the already distracted horde of enemies.

Easy: Defense

Decoy is great for defense because it has a higher priority than the defense objective.

On 2021-06-15 at 2:08 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

The reason Nyx is terrible at doing damage is because she utilizes enemy damage with no multipliers.

Actually, Nyx can do easy damage with Psychic Bolts, as it can remove 100% of the enemy defenses easily, so Chaos is just to make sure that enemies doesn't target her too much.

I use Nyx for Steel Path with a Vaykor Hek and she's pretty effective.

On 2021-06-15 at 2:08 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

So you take your ability, which has no multipliers for enemy damage, and is still subject to poor AI, and you try to make that enemy damage kill an enemy with tons of EHP (especially if it's a heavier unit). That enemy isn't going to die, which invalidates any clever placement you could give to Decoy. 

It's a distraction. I kept and combined Decoy with Switch Teleport because I think teleporting freely overlaps with Nova a bit too much.

And in bigger maps, having two aggro switchers is useful, as you can cover a larger area.

I don't think Loki needs a damaging ability, he's currently functional after all this years without having a damaging ability.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2021-06-15 at 12:28 AM, syl42 said:

is there any use for Switch Teleport?

My first thought would be to switch with the decoy to bypass laser. The other use is if you want to troll a player.

I would merge this skill with Decoy. Tap to cast Decoy, hold to teleport. And tap to cast a new Decoy. This would give a way to move "faster" like Nova. If there is no Decoy, you could switch to the target and keep the original design.

Then it would open up for something else that isn't the prime skill for subsume replacement.

The Demolysts are vulnerable to switch teleport; that's saved me a few times

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Greybones:

The Demolysts are vulnerable to switch teleport; that's saved me a few times

 

 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

4 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Actually, Nyx can do easy damage with Psychic Bolts, as it can remove 100% of the enemy defenses easily, so Chaos is just to make sure that enemies doesn't target her too much.

I mean with her abilities, not with weapons. Absorb does terrible damage unless you use some tricky methods involving specters. Mind Controlled enemies don't do good damage because their AI is terrible, and Chaos doesn't have any multipliers for enemy damage, so it's low damage against high health. The point is that enemies effectively cannot kill one another, so your proposed new ability would be much more durable than Decoy, and I used Nyx to show how using enemy damage without high multipliers results in low damage.

 

4 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Decoy is great for defense because it has a higher priority than the defense objective.

I agree, but adding another Decoy doesn't mean more enemies are distracted, it only means that some enemies are shooting one Decoy, while some are shooting the other. If you just put your single Decoy near the objective, all enemies will be distracted by it, so why bother with a second one?

5 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

It's a distraction. I kept and combined Decoy with Switch Teleport because I think teleporting freely overlaps with Nova a bit too much.

You still have the overlap, it's just more clunky. The Decoy/Switch Teleport is freely aimed teleportation. My point is that since your other ability makes Decoy redundant for being an actual Decoy, you may as well just allow Switch Teleport to aim freely, as the Decoy only exists at that point to make the ability clunky.

5 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

And in bigger maps, having two aggro switchers is useful, as you can cover a larger area.

But why would you need to do that? If you're defending something, you only need one Decoy. Leaving your Decoy to defend an ally isn't very useful, because your ally has their own defense methods and doesn't need it. Using Decoy to defend yourself isn't useful either, as Loki is invisible (the best defense), and can remove all threat enemies pose by casting Radial Disarm.

If you care so much about having a second Decoy, why not just raise the amount of active Decoys you can have to 2? You'd keep the actual Decoy relevant, and you'd still have space for another ability that doesn't cause redundancy in the kit.

[LagartoPunkarra]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I mean with her abilities, not with weapons. Absorb does terrible damage unless you use some tricky methods involving specters. Mind Controlled enemies don't do good damage because their AI is terrible, and Chaos doesn't have any multipliers for enemy damage, so it's low damage against high health. The point is that enemies effectively cannot kill one another, so your proposed new ability would be much more durable than Decoy, and I used Nyx to show how using enemy damage without high multipliers results in low damage.

 

I agree, but adding another Decoy doesn't mean more enemies are distracted, it only means that some enemies are shooting one Decoy, while some are shooting the other. If you just put your single Decoy near the objective, all enemies will be distracted by it, so why bother with a second one?

You still have the overlap, it's just more clunky. The Decoy/Switch Teleport is freely aimed teleportation. My point is that since your other ability makes Decoy redundant for being an actual Decoy, you may as well just allow Switch Teleport to aim freely, as the Decoy only exists at that point to make the ability clunky.

But why would you need to do that? If you're defending something, you only need one Decoy. Leaving your Decoy to defend an ally isn't very useful, because your ally has their own defense methods and doesn't need it. Using Decoy to defend yourself isn't useful either, as Loki is invisible (the best defense), and can remove all threat enemies pose by casting Radial Disarm.

If you care so much about having a second Decoy, why not just raise the amount of active Decoys you can have to 2? You'd keep the actual Decoy relevant, and you'd still have space for another ability that doesn't cause redundancy in the kit.

I mean, I see your points, but I would still keep Decoy. Also, I think a Teleport without Decoy for Loki would be the same as Nova or something even more clunky.

However, if your complain is that Decoy is useless with the new ability I would give him, then I would change Decoy + Switch Teleport to something different, similar to an EMP, an ability that disables obstables and cameras in range, as well as removing alarms if a console is affected. No damage potential (because I still think that Loki doesn't really need abilities that are designed to do damage) and adding some control of the map, specially in Spy missions.

[Azamagon]

Ahem:

On 2021-05-30 at 8:59 PM, Azamagon said:

So, as promised:

Decoy

• Decoy is invulnerable (but still fully targetable), at the cost of its base duration being reduced to 7/10/12/15 seconds (from 7/15/20/25) - Note that making it invulnerable is not exactly necessary, but I think it would certainly spice up its usefulness overall.
• Recasting the ability midduration "detonates" the Decoy.
• If the Deocy is detonated or expires, it causes a blinding effect around it. This blind has a 4/5/6/7 meter radius (Range-moddable), a 4/5/6/7 second duration (Duration-moddable) and will open enemies to finishers.
• Augment: Saviour Decoy - On top of its current effect, it also increases the duration of the Decoy by 10/20/30/50%
• Augment: Deceptive Bond - In PvE, the Decoy just absorbs damage from Loki (i.e. the Decoy-to-Loki damage is removed), and it also increases the blinding radius by 25/50/75/100%.

Invisibility

• Holdcasting the ability midduration will end it early (this should be a thing for MOST buffs, imo - it shouldn't feel necessary to jump down holes or run into Nullifiers to turn off abilities)

Switch Teleport

• Tapcast = Casts the ability as normal
• Holdcast = Teleport to your Decoy without needing to target the Decoy, as long as the Decoy is within casting range. This works even through walls, as long as it doesn't "backwards progress" you during particular scripted fights and such.
• Cast on ally = If Loki casts it on an ally (or a Decoy if it's not made invulnerable), the ally gets a lengthy survivability buff (damage reduction or evasion, something like that), and Loki gets heavily reduced aggro for the same duration.
• Cast on enemy = If Loki casts it on an enemy, the enemy gets a longlasting Duration-moddable high-aggro Radiation-proc on them (with a Chaos-esque hologram on them, so the enemy looks like Loki) and Loki gets a Disguise-effect on him for the same duration (he will have a hologram over him, to symbolize looking like the enemy he swapped with) - to enemies it looks like you never swapped in the first place!
  • Note: If the enemy is not alerted, it will not get the Radiation-proc on it. However, Loki still gets the Disguise.
  • The Disguise-effect is basicly invisibility, but wears off immediately if you attack anyone while visible. You can still cast any ability without losing the Disguise, however.
• Cast on objects = Loki can now swap with things like explosive barrels too. It's treated like an enemy (i.e. if enemies are alerted, it gets a longlasting Radiation-proc on it so enemies will attack it)
• Augment: Safeguard Switch Tangled Switch - Augment upgraded with added effects (hence the renaming):
  • 1) If cast on allies = It makes the ally briefly invulnerable, just like now
  • 2) If cast on enemies / objects / Decoy = Places a binding tether on the enemy/object/Decoy, for 5/7/9/12 seconds (Duration-moddable). This tether has multiple effects:
    • At any time an enemy or your Decoy gets within 8/10/12/15 meters (Range-moddable) of the tether, it will be latched onto it and dragged closer to the centre
      • NOTE: The tether is placed on the target BEFORE the teleport-swap, so if you for example switch an enemy who is amidst more enemies, they will all be teleported to the swapped location!
    • This tether remains in place for its full duration, even after the switch-target might've died (including if it's placed on the Decoy and the Decoy is removed in any way)
    • Can max tether up to 4/6/8/10 enemies at once
    • It causes 15/25/35/50% (Strength-moddable, capped at 100%) of all damage taken to be shared among all the tethered enemies.
      • NOTE: If it tethers to a Decoy, then the Decoy can share its damage taken to any other tethered enemies too (even though it's invulnerable)
    • Max 1 tether can be used at a time. Recasting the ability removes the old tether before placing a new one.

Sidenote here: I feel the Tangled Switch augment, at least its tether without the damageshare-effect, could almost be made baseline to the ability, as it really fits the mischief theme to mass teleport enemies around and keep them in stuck together and such.

Radial Disarm

• On top of its current effects, it also adds a debuff on enemies for 10/15/20/25 seconds (Duration-moddable), causing any damage the affected enemies do, to also be dealt to themselves, with a 200/250/300/350% amplification, (Strength-moddable). This works on ALL enemies, including bosses, melee units and anything non-disarmable.
• Synergy potential: Casting Radial Disarm while a Decoy is active causes the Radial Disarm-effect to also emminate from the Decoy's position!

[Arthegall]

I Love Loki, but he is insanely out dated! It’s crazy looking at some of the new frames and then looking at a frame like Loki, totally different games! It isn’t that he’s not strong, it’s his abilities lack any real shine or fun. He’s the trickster god that doesn’t feel like a trickster. He is definitely in need of a ‘zephyr style’ rework. Doesn’t need to be a full rework, though a full rework would be nice. All that really needs changing are his passive, decoy and switch teleport. His invisibility and radial disarm while not the most fun abilities fit the trickster god vibe.

[1up20xdey6]

6 hours ago, Arthegall said:

I Love Loki, but he is insanely out dated! It’s crazy looking at some of the new frames and then looking at a frame like Loki, totally different games! It isn’t that he’s not strong, it’s his abilities lack any real shine or fun. He’s the trickster god that doesn’t feel like a trickster. He is definitely in need of a ‘zephyr style’ rework. Doesn’t need to be a full rework, though a full rework would be nice. All that really needs changing are his passive, decoy and switch teleport. His invisibility and radial disarm while not the most fun abilities fit the trickster god vibe.

I certainly can take it either way, though the idea of a "zephyr style" rework could be a good idea.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2021-06-27 at 6:31 AM, Arthegall said:

I Love Loki, but he is insanely out dated! It’s crazy looking at some of the new frames and then looking at a frame like Loki, totally different games! It isn’t that he’s not strong, it’s his abilities lack any real shine or fun. He’s the trickster god that doesn’t feel like a trickster. He is definitely in need of a ‘zephyr style’ rework. Doesn’t need to be a full rework, though a full rework would be nice. All that really needs changing are his passive, decoy and switch teleport. His invisibility and radial disarm while not the most fun abilities fit the trickster god vibe.

It's a testament to how overpowered stealth is in this game that Loki still functions as well as he does.  His 2 is about a singularly useful as Nekros' 3, and the sole reason neither really get discussed for reworks as often as they probably should.  They each have two of the best abilities in the game, regardless of the rest of their kits.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

17 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's a testament to how overpowered stealth is in this game that Loki still functions as well as he does.  His 2 is about a singularly useful as Nekros' 3, and the sole reason neither really get discussed for reworks as often as they probably should.  They each have two of the best abilities in the game, regardless of the rest of their kits.

Same goes for Inaros' fat health pool. At most, half his 4 is fine.

[Sojufueled]

Directly comparing Loki to Wukong makes the difference stark.

Decoy vs Celestial Twin - Winner: Obviously the Twin

Invisibility and Switch Teleport vs Cloud Walker - Invisibility is better offensively, for sure. Cloud Walker heals and cure status, which is obviously very nice. Switch teleport is less reliable than Cloud Walker for quick movement and way more disorienting.

Defy and Primal Fury vs Radial Disarm - The comparison here is weak, but it's what's left. Defy's good. Radial disarm and Primal Fury are both in a bad spot.  

 

[Lewnz]

Sadge

[JakCrow]

I think Loki also needs an updated model too. The asymmetric look is ugly now, and he looks like he's roughly, made of clay. The new Verv skin makes all the flaws of the model stand out even more, where the surface textures of the current model look outdated compared to a frame like Gara.

[1up20xdey6]

On 2021-07-02 at 10:40 AM, Sojufueled said:

Directly comparing Loki to Wukong makes the difference stark.

Decoy vs Celestial Twin - Winner: Obviously the Twin

Invisibility and Switch Teleport vs Cloud Walker - Invisibility is better offensively, for sure. Cloud Walker heals and cure status, which is obviously very nice. Switch teleport is less reliable than Cloud Walker for quick movement and way more disorienting.

Defy and Primal Fury vs Radial Disarm - The comparison here is weak, but it's what's left. Defy's good. Radial disarm and Primal Fury are both in a bad spot.  

 

I honestly couldn't agree more here.

[1up20xdey6]

On 2021-07-02 at 2:44 PM, JakCrow said:

I think Loki also needs an updated model too. The asymmetric look is ugly now, and he looks like he's roughly, made of clay. The new Verv skin makes all the flaws of the model stand out even more, where the surface textures of the current model look outdated compared to a frame like Gara.

Considering they've been slowly updating a lot of the other frames, Loki could use a little makeover in some areas.

[(XBOX)NovemberNova48]

I made a post awhile ago about a "Retooling" of Loki's abilities, since I used to main Loki all the time until the past couple of years. I love Loki and still love parts of his kit, but they really do need a tweak.

What I suggested was:

1. Just make his decoy invincible. Or make it a LOT more tanky than it is currently, and make it scale.

2. Invisibility is still pretty good, but considering how outclassed he is by other frames in the invis department, maybe just give it a little buff to duration or cast on the move like ash.

3. His Switch teleport should function as normal, but allow us to hold to immediately switch with our decoy and give us a small radial blind upon completing the teleport.

4. Radial disarm would be unchanged, but if your decoy is out, allow it to cast a smaller (maybe 50% range) radial disarm as well.

I feel like these small changes would add a lot of variation and variety to his playstyle and keep him competitive with other frames. The switch teleport with decoy could allow for basically fast travel between objectives. And the radial disarm change would incentivize you to keep your decoy out, plus it would add some interesting combinations with attracting enemies into melee range, then switch teleporting with it after they bunch up around the decoy. 

As for his passive.... Wow I completely forgot it even existed..... I don't even know what to do with his passive. 

[1up20xdey6]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)NovemberNova48 said:

I made a post awhile ago about a "Retooling" of Loki's abilities, since I used to main Loki all the time until the past couple of years. I love Loki and still love parts of his kit, but they really do need a tweak.

What I suggested was:

1. Just make his decoy invincible. Or make it a LOT more tanky than it is currently, and make it scale.

2. Invisibility is still pretty good, but considering how outclassed he is by other frames in the invis department, maybe just give it a little buff to duration or cast on the move like ash.

3. His Switch teleport should function as normal, but allow us to hold to immediately switch with our decoy and give us a small radial blind upon completing the teleport.

4. Radial disarm would be unchanged, but if your decoy is out, allow it to cast a smaller (maybe 50% range) radial disarm as well.

I feel like these small changes would add a lot of variation and variety to his playstyle and keep him competitive with other frames. The switch teleport with decoy could allow for basically fast travel between objectives. And the radial disarm change would incentivize you to keep your decoy out, plus it would add some interesting combinations with attracting enemies into melee range, then switch teleporting with it after they bunch up around the decoy. 

As for his passive.... Wow I completely forgot it even existed..... I don't even know what to do with his passive. 

Not bad ideas, and that last part regarding his passive: I think EVERYONE forgets about his passive because of how useless it is. XD

[Godmode_Ash]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)NovemberNova48 said:

4. Radial disarm would be unchanged, but if your decoy is out, allow it to cast a smaller (maybe 50% range) radial disarm as well.

Haven't read the whole thread, but what benefits provide by having a smaller radial disarm area?

[(XBOX)NovemberNova48]

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Haven't read the whole thread, but what benefits provide by having a smaller radial disarm area?

Sorry, should have been a bit more specific. What I meant was that Loki's radial Disarm would remain unchanged, but if you have the decoy out, the decoy would cast another radial disarm alongside Loki, but the decoy's radial disarm would have a shorter range. 

Basically just some added synergy between decoy and radial disarm, since you could use decoy as a way to distantly cast radial disarm.

[1up20xdey6]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)NovemberNova48 said:

Sorry, should have been a bit more specific. What I meant was that Loki's radial Disarm would remain unchanged, but if you have the decoy out, the decoy would cast another radial disarm alongside Loki, but the decoy's radial disarm would have a shorter range. 

Basically just some added synergy between decoy and radial disarm, since you could use decoy as a way to distantly cast radial disarm.

Not a bad idea honestly.

[ShogunGunshow]

My personal emergency band-aid idea for Loki is

1) his decoy should just be invincible. Molt should not be a better decoy than Decoy because that also gives Saryn a speed boost. I think it's a good ability for him to keep to play into his theme of misdirection

2) switch teleport should inflict a brief, massive vulnerability to damage on an enemy that gets switched. If switching with an ally, they and Loki get a large damage boost for a brief time.