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Loki Rework


1up20xdey6
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if you watched the stream (the one that gave you the new toy you want buffed) they were asking about reworking a lot of the older frames that don't necessarily perform up to new frame standards.

Pablo said (paraphrase) they didn't have plans to rework old warframes, any reworking is time taken away from something else.

I mean I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but it did make me think that no reworks are coming anytime soon

Edited by _Anise_
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On 2021-07-16 at 9:20 PM, 1up20xdey6 said:

Not bad ideas, and that last part regarding his passive: I think EVERYONE forgets about his passive because of how useless it is. XD

Maybe for his passive, his cloak could be increased by 1 or 0.5 seconds for every enemy killed while cloaked? His invisibility is already getting outclassed by quite a few other frames so this could help bring his cloak back into style?

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The game has facing for finishers. I wonder if Loki could get a bonus on attacks from behind? That would immediately make decoy more worthwhile. As for Loki's current passive? Just give make it baseline for all frames. I don't see the harm more generous wall latch could do. The wall latch mods are very strong and still nobody wants to bother with it.

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Loki is my favorite frame by far. I've been using him since day 1 on PlayStation and don't think he needs a rework or stat adjustments. I use all of his abilities, some of his augments, and find him to be a little squishy, sure, but he's also fast and invisible so it's a fair trade off to me. Even though he is squishy, I rarely ever go down with Loki.

 

If OP doesn't like him, don't use him. If you only use two of his abilities, you aren't doing it right. He's by far one of the most useful frames for solo and co-op and was one of the best frames for LoR when we had that. That says something right there. 

Edited by (PSN)nerex33
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41 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Would you like to explain how you use Decoy and Switch Teleport regularly?

This makes me wonder if you even play the game. Personally, I solo a ton of the time and prefer to play support when co-op, and both worlds are where Loki can shine. You can distract or just flat out get aggro to a specific location especially after disarming enemies, put it in a location enemies can't really get to to guarantee you don't go down although I only tried it and prefer not to use that mod since max duration or range are my builds and I never really need it anyway, but the option is there. Great when used in spy missions to swap with behind laser barriers or distract vault guards to another side of the vault since it doesn't seem to set off alarms for some reason. Place it out when reviving someone to keep AoE attacks far from yourself while reviving. 

As for Switch Teleport, again, in spy vaults or as a quick way to return to a location, make allies invincible for a while, swap places with a downed ally, remove an enemy from an area, stun them allowing you time to do whatever you want to them, drastically speed up PoE bounties with that dumb drone and just teleport it across the plains, etc. 

That's what I've got off the top of my head but I'm sure there's more uses. If you don't like or know how to use him, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. This game is all about choice, options. It's about you. But suggesting an overhaul just because you don't like something or aren't familiar enough with it will affect a great many of players. 

Keep in mind, Loki never got reworked for a reason. He's useful and used enough to the point that a rework isn't really warranted. Get out there and experiment, try to find new ways, synergies, etc. You'll thank yourself. Who knows, maybe he's your favorite WF too but you just don't know it yet. 

 

Edit* Forgot to mention that when Nightmare LoR was around, we used to have 2 in our squad. That's how useful he can be. 2 of them in one raid. 

Also, check Wiki on those abilities, I'm sure it might have some useful tips and tricks. It usually does. Wiki is your closest WF friend.

Edited by (PSN)nerex33
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23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

put it in a location enemies can't really get to to guarantee you don't go down

  • If placed in a position where enemies cannot reach:
    • Within a few seconds Infested enemies will swap their aggro to another target.
    • Grineer and Corpus enemies will keep trying to aim at the Decoy until it disappears even if they cannot see or hit it, making it extremely effective if placed in good cover against enemy fire.

This applies to all melee units, including disarmed ranged units. The Grineer and Corpus part is only applying to ranged units.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

Great when used in spy missions to swap with behind laser barriers or distract vault guards to another side of the vault since it doesn't seem to set off alarms for some reason.

Not only is this for a single mission type, but it's also completely pointless to do, since you are Loki, who is invisible, and thus doesn't care about enemies detecting him.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

Place it out when reviving someone to keep AoE attacks far from yourself while reviving. 

Or you use Operator Void Mode to be invincible while reviving. Players don't go down in the content before finishing the War Within, so there's no excuse not to.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

As for Switch Teleport, again, in spy vaults or as a quick way to return to a location

Again, limited to one mission type. Using it for mobility outside of that is pointless when compared to just bullet jumping over there.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

make allies invincible for a while, swap places with a downed ally

Making allies invincible isn't effective for the same reason that giving allies DR doesn't matter: Your allies build themselves to stay alive without your help, so the actual benefits of you making an ally invincible are meager. As for swapping places with a downed ally, you accomplish nothing, since you could just walk over there, pop into operator form, void mode, than revive, all in one motion.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

remove an enemy from an area, stun them allowing you time to do whatever you want to them

Clunky single target crowd control that is outclassed by just killing the thing. Excellent.

 

23 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

drastically speed up PoE bounties with that dumb drone and just teleport it across the plains

In that single stage of that one mission type, you can shave off a minute from something that takes 3 minutes or less. Fantastic.

But hey, if you don't trust me, here are some Loki players responding to my questions about Loki...

 

Edited by (XBOX)Regxxh
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I told you, if you don't like him, don't use him. Stop nitpicking any little detail possible, like all of the 'that's only one mission type' or any of your other little pseudo-arguments. Like I stated, it was just a few things off the top of my head. If you won't use a frame because they are useless in a certain type of situation or mission, then I have bad news for you. lol. Have fun on your quest. Out. 

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8 minutes ago, (PSN)nerex33 said:

I told you, if you don't like him, don't use him. Stop nitpicking any little detail possible, like all of the 'that's only one mission type' or any of your other little pseudo-arguments. Like I stated, it was just a few things off the top of my head. If you won't use a frame because they are useless in a certain type of situation or mission

I ask you when you use these 2 abilities regularly. Your answer was either stuff that was pointless to do, or stuff that only pertained to a single mission type. I would say that proves that those abilities are useless. You can then make the conclusion that I think Loki is useless. You'd be wrong, but you can make that conclusion. I think most people can agree that if 2/5 of the abilities (passive included) are useless, the frame is not in a good state design-wise. For Loki, those 2 abilities are enough to make him powerful, but the other 60% of his kit is generally useless.

I also don't know why you assume I don't play Loki. He's my 3rd most used frame as an MR30 player with every frame unlocked. I can acknowledge that his kit is mostly trash without neglecting him.

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I'd be happy if they just gave Switch Teleport the ability to cast a radiation proc on any enemy target that you use it on, so that he can use it the way it was F***ING SHOWN TO US IN THE TRAILER when he swapped in that one Grineer Lancer to take the hammerblow from Lech Kril.

You can't have friendly fire damage in WarFrame without radiation proc and Switch Teleport, on paper, looks like an absurdly fun troll tool for causing friendly fire on enemies, but it could never do that because DE forgot the radiation proc.

And forget "confusion". No enemy has ever been confused about my switch teleport. They all knew exactly where I was the moment I reappeared. The entire skill was false advertising and only got used for cheating your way into positions you couldn't normally parkour to before Bullet Jump became a thing.

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On 2021-05-30 at 8:59 PM, Azamagon said:

So, as promised:

Decoy

  • Decoy is invulnerable (but still fully targetable), at the cost of its base duration being reduced to 7/10/12/15 seconds (from 7/15/20/25) - Note that making it invulnerable is not exactly necessary, but I think it would certainly spice up its usefulness overall.
  • Recasting the ability midduration "detonates" the Decoy.
  • If the Deocy is detonated or expires, it causes a blinding effect around it. This blind has a 4/5/6/7 meter radius (Range-moddable), a 4/5/6/7 second duration (Duration-moddable) and will open enemies to finishers.
  • Augment: Saviour Decoy - On top of its current effect, it also increases the duration of the Decoy by 10/20/30/50%
  • Augment: Deceptive Bond - In PvE, the Decoy just absorbs damage from Loki (i.e. the Decoy-to-Loki damage is removed), and it also increases the blinding radius by 25/50/75/100%.

Invisibility

  • Holdcasting the ability midduration will end it early (this should be a thing for MOST buffs, imo - it shouldn't feel necessary to jump down holes or run into Nullifiers to turn off abilities)

Switch Teleport

  • Tapcast = Casts the ability as normal
  • Holdcast = Teleport to your Decoy without needing to target the Decoy, as long as the Decoy is within casting range. This works even through walls, as long as it doesn't "backwards progress" you during particular scripted fights and such.
  • On any target = The target projects a damage-amp aura, which increases damage taken for nearby enemies by 20/30/40/50%. Aura has 5/7/9/12 sec duration and 8/10/12/15 meter radius.
    • Note: If it is cast on an enemy, and the enemy dies mid-duration, the aura still eminates from its corpse
  • Cast on ally = If Loki casts it on an ally (or a Decoy if it's not made invulnerable), the ally gets a lengthy survivability buff (damage reduction or evasion, something like that), and Loki gets heavily reduced aggro for the same duration.
  • Cast on enemy = If Loki casts it on an enemy, the enemy gets a longlasting Duration-moddable high-aggro Radiation-proc on them (with a Chaos-esque hologram on them, so the enemy looks like Loki).
    • Note: If the enemy is not alerted, it will not get the Radiation-proc on it.
  • Cast on objects = Loki can now swap with things like explosive barrels too. It's treated like an enemy (i.e. if enemies are alerted, it gets a longlasting Radiation-proc on it so enemies will attack it)
  • Augment: Safeguard Switch Tangled Switch - Augment upgraded with added effects (hence the renaming):
    • 1) If cast on allies = It makes the ally briefly invulnerable, just like now
    • 2) If cast on enemies / objects / Decoy = Places a binding tether on the enemy/object/Decoy, for 5/7/9/12 seconds (Duration-moddable). This tether has multiple effects:
      • At any time an enemy or your Decoy gets within 8/10/12/15 meters (Range-moddable) of the tether, it will be latched onto it and dragged closer to the centre
        • NOTE: The tether is placed on the target BEFORE the teleport-swap, so if you for example switch an enemy who is amidst more enemies, they will all be teleported to the swapped location!
      • This tether remains in place for its full duration, even after the switch-target might've died (including if it's placed on the Decoy and the Decoy is removed in any way)
      • Can max tether up to 4/6/8/10 enemies at once
      • It causes 15/25/35/50% (Strength-moddable, capped at 100%) of all damage taken to be shared among all the tethered enemies.
        • NOTE: If it tethers to a Decoy, then the Decoy can share its damage taken to any other tethered enemies too (even though it's invulnerable)
      • Max 1 tether can be used at a time. Recasting the ability removes the old tether before placing a new one.

Radial Disarm

  • On top of its current effects, it also adds a debuff on enemies for 10/15/20/25 seconds (Duration-moddable), causing any damage the affected enemies do, to also be dealt to themselves, with a 200/250/300/350% amplification, (Strength-moddable). This works on ALL enemies, including bosses, melee units and anything non-disarmable.
  • Synergy potential: Casting Radial Disarm while a Decoy is active causes the Radial Disarm-effect to also emminate from the Decoy's position!

Tweaked my old suggestions a tiny bit (for example, made baseline Switch Teleport more useful with a damage-amp aura, etc)

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@Azamagon I really like those suggestions. Giving his abilities multi uses depending on recast or hold to cast is really interesting! And his radial disarm could really use that debuff you suggested as It would be so useful for liches and sisters! suggestion

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I'm all for a Loki rework.

Decoy is trumped by giving him Octavia's resonator (a mobile decoy that is harder to hit cos it's not standing around like an idiot)

Invisibility cannot be recast under any circumstance, which forces you to look for a hiding place so you can recast it when it runs out

Switch Teleport is VERY useless, and even with its augment it serves more to mess up allies than help them. Doesn't even pair too well with Decoy since the only times I've ever used Decoy to teleport to is if there's a gap I don't think I can reasonably cross (and I still usually TRY first because the actual scan for the decoy for teleport is tiny and gets smaller the further away it is, which makes it only harder) and the only other use I've gotten from it is when I was trying to farm for Harrow and the mission for one of his parts gets a stuck rescue target in the geometry.

Radial Disarm is... Okay? I don't care for it that much, so I'm not an expert or anything on whether or not it's good. Part of the reason why I dislike it is that you can't even make a for-fun strength build with it because even at 300% strength Radial Disarm does very little damage. (Spoiled by Vauban's orbital strike probably, as that's powerful even at 40% strength)

His passive is just stupid. Hooray, 1 minute wall latch...

Decoy needs more survivability and utility than it currently has. Maybe look towards Wukong's Celestial Twin for a bit of inspiration? (For example, give the decoy an AI and have it try to steer clear of you within a certain radius determined by range or something. This will make Decoy on par with Resonator, at the very least.)

Invisibility at its core is fine. The only glaring issue is that it cannot be recast, which forces you to hide before it times out so you can recast it if you don't want to draw aggro/trip alarms/etc. Simply let us recast it. If you REALLY want, you can give it an internal cooldown like Volt's 4, which can't be recast until a certain amount of time if it doesn't kill all/most of its targets.

Switch Teleport, like I said, is almost entirely useless. It'd be better replaced with something else that could be more useful. Not quite sure what, but almost anything could be better and more useful that his 3 now, lol. Maybe just blatantly turn it into a forward teleport akin to the Operator's Void Dash and convert the augment to making Loki invincible after cast for a brief time.

Radial Disarm is useful mostly just for enemies with hard-hitting guns, and almost entirely useless against Infested since they don't use guns at all. Again, it's not my cup of tea so it might just be me not liking it, but I feel like it could do with a replace as well since it doesn't stop enemies with decent/high melee damage from kicking your butt still. Maybe let it proc guaranteed confusion alongside the disarm? Even if the confusion/radiation proc is shorter lived than the disarm.

His passive is the hard one. Since he's supposed to be the defacto stealth frame, maybe a bonus to stealthed damage? Or just convert his augment for his 2 into his passive and just make all weapons used while invisible silenced. Or literally anything else more useful that long latch time.

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4 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I'm all for a Loki rework.

Decoy is trumped by giving him Octavia's resonator (a mobile decoy that is harder to hit cos it's not standing around like an idiot)

Invisibility cannot be recast under any circumstance, which forces you to look for a hiding place so you can recast it when it runs out

Switch Teleport is VERY useless, and even with its augment it serves more to mess up allies than help them. Doesn't even pair too well with Decoy since the only times I've ever used Decoy to teleport to is if there's a gap I don't think I can reasonably cross (and I still usually TRY first because the actual scan for the decoy for teleport is tiny and gets smaller the further away it is, which makes it only harder) and the only other use I've gotten from it is when I was trying to farm for Harrow and the mission for one of his parts gets a stuck rescue target in the geometry.

Radial Disarm is... Okay? I don't care for it that much, so I'm not an expert or anything on whether or not it's good. Part of the reason why I dislike it is that you can't even make a for-fun strength build with it because even at 300% strength Radial Disarm does very little damage. (Spoiled by Vauban's orbital strike probably, as that's powerful even at 40% strength)

His passive is just stupid. Hooray, 1 minute wall latch...

Decoy needs more survivability and utility than it currently has. Maybe look towards Wukong's Celestial Twin for a bit of inspiration? (For example, give the decoy an AI and have it try to steer clear of you within a certain radius determined by range or something. This will make Decoy on par with Resonator, at the very least.)

Invisibility at its core is fine. The only glaring issue is that it cannot be recast, which forces you to hide before it times out so you can recast it if you don't want to draw aggro/trip alarms/etc. Simply let us recast it. If you REALLY want, you can give it an internal cooldown like Volt's 4, which can't be recast until a certain amount of time if it doesn't kill all/most of its targets.

Switch Teleport, like I said, is almost entirely useless. It'd be better replaced with something else that could be more useful. Not quite sure what, but almost anything could be better and more useful that his 3 now, lol. Maybe just blatantly turn it into a forward teleport akin to the Operator's Void Dash and convert the augment to making Loki invincible after cast for a brief time.

Radial Disarm is useful mostly just for enemies with hard-hitting guns, and almost entirely useless against Infested since they don't use guns at all. Again, it's not my cup of tea so it might just be me not liking it, but I feel like it could do with a replace as well since it doesn't stop enemies with decent/high melee damage from kicking your butt still. Maybe let it proc guaranteed confusion alongside the disarm? Even if the confusion/radiation proc is shorter lived than the disarm.

His passive is the hard one. Since he's supposed to be the defacto stealth frame, maybe a bonus to stealthed damage? Or just convert his augment for his 2 into his passive and just make all weapons used while invisible silenced. Or literally anything else more useful that long latch time.

You have expressed all the reasons WHY I gave Loki the buffs I suggested! :)

This is why I suggested the following:

Decoy

  • Durability - Invincible, but shorter duration
  • Utility - Blind on detonation/expiration.
    • With invincibility and an effect on ending = Great synergy with Radial Disarm's indirect grouping enemies up at the Decoy

Invisibility

  • Recasting - On holdcast = End it early, allowing a recast. At least then there's a very brief window of vulnerability, but it also gives you better control overall.

Switch Teleport

  • Utility - Damage amp aura on target (lingering even if the target dies) = Gives you a reason to use it more often on tougher fights
  • Utility 2 - Radiation-proc on main target if it's an alerted enemy = Adds more mischievious chaos.
  • Augment - Tangles up multiple targets, making it a direct enemy-grouping ability AND sharing their damage taken furthers its damage amplification greatly
  • Mobility - Holdcast it = Instant swap with Decoy without needing to look at it = Easy and quick mobility

Radial Disarm

  • Selfharm debuff addition = Useful even on melee enemies and bosses, and synergizes amazingly with Decoy and/or its own augment.

Passive I left alone, as I couldn't think of anything to improve it (and I honestly kinda like it). Something additional to it which gives him a bonus for latching to a wall high up and watching the chaos he produces could be in order, as I find it otherwise thematic. Like, he gains overshields while wall latching per X enemy interacting with his skills or something?

Edited by Azamagon
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12 hours ago, Flannoit said:

I'm all for a Loki rework.

Decoy is trumped by giving him Octavia's resonator (a mobile decoy that is harder to hit cos it's not standing around like an idiot)

Invisibility cannot be recast under any circumstance, which forces you to look for a hiding place so you can recast it when it runs out

Switch Teleport is VERY useless, and even with its augment it serves more to mess up allies than help them. Doesn't even pair too well with Decoy since the only times I've ever used Decoy to teleport to is if there's a gap I don't think I can reasonably cross (and I still usually TRY first because the actual scan for the decoy for teleport is tiny and gets smaller the further away it is, which makes it only harder) and the only other use I've gotten from it is when I was trying to farm for Harrow and the mission for one of his parts gets a stuck rescue target in the geometry.

Radial Disarm is... Okay? I don't care for it that much, so I'm not an expert or anything on whether or not it's good. Part of the reason why I dislike it is that you can't even make a for-fun strength build with it because even at 300% strength Radial Disarm does very little damage. (Spoiled by Vauban's orbital strike probably, as that's powerful even at 40% strength)

His passive is just stupid. Hooray, 1 minute wall latch...

Decoy needs more survivability and utility than it currently has. Maybe look towards Wukong's Celestial Twin for a bit of inspiration? (For example, give the decoy an AI and have it try to steer clear of you within a certain radius determined by range or something. This will make Decoy on par with Resonator, at the very least.)

Invisibility at its core is fine. The only glaring issue is that it cannot be recast, which forces you to hide before it times out so you can recast it if you don't want to draw aggro/trip alarms/etc. Simply let us recast it. If you REALLY want, you can give it an internal cooldown like Volt's 4, which can't be recast until a certain amount of time if it doesn't kill all/most of its targets.

Switch Teleport, like I said, is almost entirely useless. It'd be better replaced with something else that could be more useful. Not quite sure what, but almost anything could be better and more useful that his 3 now, lol. Maybe just blatantly turn it into a forward teleport akin to the Operator's Void Dash and convert the augment to making Loki invincible after cast for a brief time.

Radial Disarm is useful mostly just for enemies with hard-hitting guns, and almost entirely useless against Infested since they don't use guns at all. Again, it's not my cup of tea so it might just be me not liking it, but I feel like it could do with a replace as well since it doesn't stop enemies with decent/high melee damage from kicking your butt still. Maybe let it proc guaranteed confusion alongside the disarm? Even if the confusion/radiation proc is shorter lived than the disarm.

His passive is the hard one. Since he's supposed to be the defacto stealth frame, maybe a bonus to stealthed damage? Or just convert his augment for his 2 into his passive and just make all weapons used while invisible silenced. Or literally anything else more useful that long latch time.

This is honestly very good and think it might work.

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