Condition overload and Pressure Point (melee 3.0)

[(PSN)AbyssWatcher0227]

So, i was wondering a lot of my friends talking about build with (po) and (co) and telling whats is the difference

So, are these 2 mods working well together? if not, what is the matter that make these 2 not workable together

[Jarriaga]

Not working well together? In which sense? They don't override or affect the other one's bonus. The only difference is that PP is up-front damage (But a low amount) and CO is less, equal, or more damage than PP depending on status.

PP is best used when you need the damage right out of the game without building status. Otherwise just 2 different procs are enough for CO to outdamage PP.

 

[Sevek7]

They do work together, they just don't work as well as they used to. The math used to work like

Damage = Base*(1+ 1.65) * 1.6^x

Where the 1.65 is from primed pressure point, and 1.6^x is from condition overload, where x is the number of status effects on the target. This math was absurd and made melee weapons insanely powerful.

Now, the math goes like this:

Damage = Base*(1+1.65 + 1.2*x)

It's much less powerful, but still absurdly strong compared to ranged weapons. This new math does mean that it's less effective than before, but both of these mods are still a good choice, assuming you can still slot a nice element, attack speed, some crit, etc... on your weapon. 

[Proscriptor]

these two mods don't work well together 

take the starting 100%

CO normally grants you at least +360% damage (3 CO stacks) and PPP grants you +165%

meaning you are comparing 460% (just CO 3x) and 625% (CO 3x + PPP); the relative increase is ~36%

that's not a lot, and it's even less when you have more CO stacks

ultimately PPP is more of a QoL mod, that enables you to kill trash mobs in one hit, but is bad against heavier and higher level units

edit: this isn't true only for the heavy attack build where you are supposed to kill even high level enemies in one hit

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

It's much less powerful, but still absurdly strong compared to ranged weapons.

Could have fooled me, the backlash that it got when they changed it from exponential "deal billions of damage" to something more reasonable was insane.

Got to love how that got nerfed and people were losing their minds but a large number of ranged weapons are literally rotting in a trash can by comparison even now.

[LapuLapo]

Like any other increase, the marginal benefit of gaining a stat goes down the more of it you already have. Since CO and PPP give the same type of damage multiplier (melee base damage) there isn't all that much to be gained by running both. If you don't see yourself inflicting multiple status procs, or you aim to one-shot with heavy attacks, run PPP. If you think you're going to combo out and cover enemies in procs, then run CO.

In ye olden times, CO and PPP were separate multiplier entirely. As a result of how they multiplied together, they were basically both mandatory in all normal builds. Now instead, they're competing for the same slot. This is a net positive for melee build diversity in general.

[BornWithTeeth]

Don't forget DE's new favourite trick though: Status Immunity for any target which they want to make remotely tough. If you're depending on Condition Overload for your damage output, do not forget to bring a pure Crit secondary.

[Tsoe]

CO+quickening for combo PP+killing blow for heavy atack

 

end of story

[(PSN)TheWanderer17]

Hmmm.  I wonder what the community take is on...

To make condition effect, what's the minimum needed of the following?

1. % status

2. # potential effects

There must be a point where it is just plain ineffective, and therefor pressure point would be the default path for that weapon.

[Proscriptor]

number of needed effects to make CO worth using is 2

there isn't a commonly used melee that has such low status so as to be less effective with CO than with PPP, on a normal light attack build

the only exception is probably guandao (base sc 4%), but even guandao isn't used with PPP (for a light attack build), but with a primer (a gun used to inflict status on a group of enemies) so that CO may work

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb (PS4)TheWanderer17:

Hmmm.  I wonder what the community take is on...

To make condition effect, what's the minimum needed of the following?

1. % status

2. # potential effects

There must be a point where it is just plain ineffective, and therefor pressure point would be the default path for that weapon.

SC Pretty much doesn't matter unless it's maybe in the single digits.

If you use CO 9/10 times it's on a combo build (maybe a hybrid build) and if you run a combo build you (want to) run Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds almost always.

You already get three status effects for free on a majority of weapons through ips procs - let's say two on average because of some oddball weapons with only one or two damage types at base. Stances can give forced status procs, even one that might not be on the weapon/build. Knockdown, while not displayed, also counts as one if I'm not gravely mistaken. Not to mention your other weapons, companions and frame itself applying status effects. So, no matter what, you should pretty much always have two status effects available by default, without mods, which is already better than Primed Pressure Point.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

If you have no plans to ever face enemies past level 300 never bother with CO. 

[Proscriptor]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

SC Pretty much doesn't matter unless it's maybe in the single digits.

i mentioned guandao, it's a popular melee and literally has 4% sc

[(PSN)TheWanderer17]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Pretty much doesn't matter unless it's maybe in the single digits.

If you use CO 9/10 times it's on a combo build (maybe a hybrid build) and if you run a combo build you (want to) run Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds.

You already get three status effects for free on a majority of weapons through ips procs - let's say two on average because of some oddball weapons with only one or two damage types at base. Stances can give forced status procs, even one that might not be on the weapon/build. Knockdown, while not displayed, also counts as one if I'm not gravely mistaken. Not to mention your other weapons, companions and frame itself applying status effects. So, no matter what, you should pretty much always have two status effects available by default, without mods, which is already better than Primed Pressure Point.

Thanks.

I guess i was falsely thinking below 15% or 20% might be too low, with too much compensating (adding % status, rather than staus dmg) but seems you suggest this isn't the case and I've had a false sense of it's limitations.

 

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (PS4)TheWanderer17:

Thanks.

I guess i was falsely thinking below 15% or 20% might be too low, with too much compensating (adding % status, rather than staus dmg) but seems you suggest this isn't the case and I've had a false sense of it's limitations.

 

No problem. I'd wait for a few more answers though. I'm not as cocky to think I was a 100% correct or gave a full precise picture. I'm pretty sure other people have more to add, correct or whatever else regarding this. It's always better to gather multiple opinions if available and if this forum has anything to offer it's opinions.

[Raikh]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)TheWanderer17:

I guess i was falsely thinking below 15% or 20% might be too low, with too much compensating (adding % status, rather than staus dmg) but seems you suggest this isn't the case and I've had a false sense of it's limitations.

Usually, any weapon you run CO on you also want to use Weeping Wounds on, which is 440% extra status chance at max combo. So even a weapon with 15% Base Status would reach up to 81% Status (15 * 5.4) just with WW. If you then add 2 dual status mods for viral you get another 120% and end up at 99% Status.

Even a weapon with just 10% status can reach 66% this way, which is still plenty for CO given the general attack speed of melee weapons.

The boundary for a weapon to have not enough status procs to justify CO is almost non-existant.

Add to that, that most stances have forced status procs. So depending on the stance you could have literally 0% Status on the weapon and still generate enough procs via stance combos to justify CO over PPP.

Then, primarily for high end enemies, you can prime targets with status via AoE status guns and some frames also bring enough status procs via abilities to justify the use of CO. Like Saryn brings corrosive, toxin and viral from her 1, 3 and 4 respectively. (You could also use companions to get extra status effects, not super useful for priming due to a lack of reliability, but can be a neat addition)

The only reasons you don't run CO is if the enemies are so weak that they won't survive the status being applied or if enemies are immune to status or lastly if you use a specific build (possibly heavy attack builds without using something to prime) or exalted melee type ability that for whatever reason doesn't benefit from CO (Baruuks energy waves for instance don't benefit from CO).

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i mentioned guandao, it's a popular melee and literally has 4% sc

Hate to break it to you, but you still want Weepig Wounds on Guandao. Maybe not CO, but still Weeping.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Could have fooled me, the backlash that it got when they changed it from exponential "deal billions of damage" to something more reasonable was insane.

Got to love how that got nerfed and people were losing their minds but a large number of ranged weapons are literally rotting in a trash can by comparison even now.

Haha yes! I remember thinking "Woohoo! Maybe some of my ranged weapons will be able to compete with the blender play-style now!" Alas, Blenderframe is still king :(

 

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Haha yes! I remember thinking "Woohoo! Maybe some of my ranged weapons will be able to compete with the blender play-style now!" Alas, Blenderframe is still king :(

My Veldt is still a worse option than most melee weapons sadly.

Also I love when people say that they can use certain weaker ranged weapons in Steel Path without listing the (likely with a Riven) build they have, or how heavily they are relying on Abilities to strip every defensive option the enemies have, something many melee weapons don't even need to unga-bunga through missions.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The only scenario off the top of my head to use both would be using mainly melee with Gara's 1, 2, and 4 synergy. You build your 2 based off melee damage mods so if you had CO (garas 2 doesn't use CO melee damage so that's just for actually meleeing enemies) , PPP, along with a riven that also had melee damage, you could give yourself a nice boost to your 2s damage while also running around meleeing everything as well I guess. 

 

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

If you really want to spam heavy attack, to get that one hit bleed kill, you use ppp. Every other scenarios just slap on CO. The math is there but the game really doesn't require you to be that strict. 

[JackHargreav]

They work together but I find it pointless to put both of them on a weapon. For the most part. A weapon that deals a lot damage and has good status chance, won't need pressure point. Not even on steel path.

But a weapon that doesn't have much status chance might better with just pressure point. Tho if you want to be "creative" you can always use a kuva nukor built for status and boost your damage with that. 

[Proscriptor]

17 hours ago, Voltage said:

Hate to break it to you, but you still want Weepig Wounds on Guandao. Maybe not CO, but still Weeping.

for which purpose

[Voltage]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

for which purpose

Reaching fastest TTK like every melee is meant to be built for?

[Proscriptor]

Just now, Voltage said:

Reaching fastest TTK like every melee is meant to be built for?

yeah but what's the mechanism behind it - you would be buffing status chance to exactly what end?