What exactly does "Orokin" refer to?

[SilentMobius]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

And us, of course.

Us being the thing that actually brought up the subject. Do Sentients even have Oro? They seem to die just fine.

Sorry I disagree:

Quote

"Oro is the binding force for an enemy who, like the Tenno, can survive death. To kill such an enemy is futile, unless you sever this bond; absorb the Oro to annihilate it and claim a true victory."

Oro is only mentioned as "The binding force for an enemy..." the only enemy Teshin talks about it the Sentients

"... who, Like the Tenno, can survive death" the enemy (Sentients) can survive death with Oro, but that does not imply that the Tenno are using the same mechanism that Teshin it talking about. After all The Conclave is not actual combat, we are not killing Tenno, we are severing a simulated bond based on a mechanism that our "enemy" uses to train.

 

[Hokibukisa]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Oro

Oro-kin are basically immortals, what makes them kin being that they possess Oro, and cannot die by normal means.

The Orokin possess oro and they were the originals. They created the Sentients and the Tenno, who also possess oro.

Currently as far as the lore goes, only those who possess oro can take the life of something else with oro. By.. consuming their oro, supposedly.

 

If you're an atheist like I am, then you can think of oro as a soul, not a metaphorical soul, but an actual implementation of a soul. But not an immortal soul, because it can be consumed.

Kuva is like a fleamarket version of oro. Similar idea (continuity), less refined route.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Sorry I disagree

You cannot disagree. There's literally a mechanic in conclave involving it.

[SilentMobius]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You cannot disagree. There's literally a mechanic in conclave involving it.

I can and do. The conclave mechanic is a simulation of Tenno vs "an enemy" Tenno do not actually kill Tenno in the conclave, hence the only information we have is what Teshin says and he does not say that Tenno have "Oro" he only says that "An Enemy" does and that the Tenno are _also_ difficult to kill.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

he does not say that Tenno have "Oro" 

Yes, he does. You're basing this on a single wiki page, I've actually played Conclave, specifically it's annihilation mode.

I suggest either playing it (hehe) or at least reading the wiki page on the mode so that you have all the facts. I wasn't referring to Conclave as a whole as a mechanic, I was referring to a specific mechanic within Conclave, that being Oro's usage in the "kill confirmed" mode.

You are disagreeing with something you cannot disagree with.

[SilentMobius]

21 hours ago, Hokibukisa said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Oro

Oro-kin are basically immortals, what makes them kin being that they possess Oro, and cannot die by normal means.

Nothing in-game says this. The only mention of "Oro" is Teshin's one conclave line and that doesn't mention the Orokin.

The wiki quotes Steve:

Quote

The creative director of the game, Steve Sinclair, describes the Oro as something "which represents the resurrection ability of Tenno and other enemies that Teshin is most concerned with".

Note "represents" not "is".

Steve also quite plainly said that "Oro" in "Orokin" was "Gold" in Devstream 10.

I think this is just a Conclave simulation that doesn't apply to Tenno but is modeled on Sentient immortality (they literally have a glowing core) and is training such that Tenno can recognise that simply striking down the body of a foe doesn't necessarily kill them.

[SilentMobius]

15 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes, he does. You're basing this on a single wiki page, I've actually played Conclave, specifically it's annihilation mode.

I suggest either playing it (hehe) or at least reading the wiki page on the mode so that you have all the facts. I wasn't referring to Conclave as a whole as a mechanic, I was referring to a specific mechanic within Conclave, that being Oro's usage in the "kill confirmed" mode.

You are disagreeing with something you cannot disagree with.

To repeat, I can and do disagree.

You are mistaken.

We have all of the quotes from within conclave and I have read them all, nothing there implies Oro is something the Tenno have, any more that a sports comentator's comment imply that a football is a fundimental part of all humanity.

Conclave is sparring for training purposes to prepare the Tenno to fight an enemy. Unless you argue that canon conclave actually results in Tenno death (Which is is plainly not the case) any conclave "Oro" mechanic is simulated.

If it is simulated the during-conclave commentary holds no lore value, the only other line is Teshin talking about Oro in the context of "an Enemy" and comparing Tenno immortality with the immortality of that Enemy.

So I disagree, and that will not change by you asserting I cannot.

[DeMonkey]

42 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

any more that a sports comentator's comment imply that a football is a fundimental part of all humanity.

A deliberate mis-comparison? The closest analogy we have to Annihilation is "Kill Confirmed", which I have already mentioned, and in "Kill Confirmed" the other players do in fact possess dog tags due to being soldiers.

Kill enemy and recover their (possessive) Dog Tags.

Kill enemy and recover their (possessive) Oro.

47 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

any conclave "Oro" mechanic is simulated.

And yet it remains literally the only instance of Oro existing in the game whatsoever, and the only people known to possess it (even possibly for the purposes of a simulation) are the Tenno. Simulating the annihilation of Oro for the purposes of a simulation does not automatically disprove that they have Oro in the non simulated world.

E.g. If I were to hypothetically own a revolver, and then play VR and shoot an enemy with a revolver, just because that was a simulated revolver doesn't mean I can't actually own a real one. That makes very little sense.

The wiki also cites Steve as stating, "something which represents the resurrection ability of Tenno and other enemies that Teshin is most concerned with".

There is no proof of any other enemy in the game posessing Oro, the only people Teshin is likely to be concerned with (given he shouldn't know the Sentients are returning at this point canonically) are the Orokin, which he's very much aware still exist.

We did of course cut the head off one of the Queens whom he was still serving, but given the twin claims she's still alive just incredibly ill, it's entirely plausible that she has some sort of inherent resurrection trait we failed to properly annihilate.

There is also the case of Vor, whom was corrupted by his Orokin key and is able to resurrect himself... repeatedly...

Steve stating that the resurrection ability of the Tenno comes from Oro should be proof enough in itself that the Tenno have Oro. The rest should be a substantial argument against Teshin's comment referring to the Sentients as having Oro, especially since we've seen literally nothing to suggest that.

[SilentMobius]

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

A deliberate mis-comparison? The closest analogy we have to Annihilation is "Kill Confirmed", which I have already mentioned, and in "Kill Confirmed" the other players do in fact possess dog tags due to being soldiers.

Kill enemy and recover their (possessive) Dog Tags.

Kill enemy and recover their (possessive) Oro.

And that wouldn't change even if the players were not part of a military that issues "dog tags" and in that situation, when training to fight an enemy that did use "dog tags" a military that did not may well provide matching props to their soldiers to allow them to simulate the process of collecting kill confirmations during a training skirmish.

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And yet it remains literally the only instance of Oro existing in the game whatsoever, and the only people known to possess it (even possibly for the purposes of a simulation) are the Tenno. Simulating the annihilation of Oro for the purposes of a simulation does not automatically disprove that they have Oro in the non simulated world.

You are right it does not disprove it, but we don't need to disprove it, we are looking for proof and we are not seeing it.

We have no proof or suggestion of "Oro"'s canon existence and the only information we have outside of conclave does not directly apply that concept to the Tenno or the Orokin, it applies it to "The enemy" and as you'll see below Teshin is clear who "The Enemy" is

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

The wiki also cites Steve as stating, "something which represents the resurrection ability of Tenno and other enemies that Teshin is most concerned with".

"represents" not "is"

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

There is no proof of any other enemy in the game posessing Oro, the only people Teshin is likely to be concerned with (given he shouldn't know the Sentients are returning at this point canonically) are the Orokin, which he's very much aware still exist.

You are mistaken, as per Teshin:

Quote

The Lotus seduced the Tenno. Led them on a complacent path like oxen. I failed the Orokin but I will preserve their legacy. The Tenno. Now is the time for action. Cast off your harness and become a pupil of The Conclave. Through trial combat, I will prepare you for the evils beyond the Outer Terminus. A warrior only grows if they face the ultimate enemy. Themselves.

This is the literal introduction to conclave, available well before any other canon game story content.

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

We did of course cut the head off one of the Queens whom he was still serving, but given the twin claims she's still alive just incredibly ill, it's entirely plausible that she has some sort of inherent resurrection trait we failed to properly annihilate.

There is also the case of Vor, whom was corrupted by his Orokin key and is able to resurrect himself... repeatedly...

And none of those beings posess anything that matches the actual conclave Oro mechanism, neither do the Tenno. In fact we are told the mechanisms for the Queens immortality, at length, in TWW and in the Necralisk Syndicate, "Oro" is not mentioned. As for Vor

...maybe, I do find it interesting that the Sentients all have a glowing core that floats seperate from their body (Which is famously poisoned by the void) and was not described as existing in the synthesis entry that describes their creation and their base state, which also drops from fragments and fills up a Tenno's energy. While Vor also has a glowing core that dissapears when we "kill" him

...but Teshin is demonstrably not talking about Vor, neither is what happened to Vor any paralel to what the Orokin have been described, and shown as doing.

You know who does drop a glowing core? Sentient Fragments. Who have we not yet defeated? Living non-fragment sentients.

56 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Steve stating that the resurrection ability of the Tenno comes from Oro should be proof enough in itself that the Tenno have Oro. The rest should be a substantial argument against Teshin's comment referring to the Sentients as having Oro, especially since we've seen literally nothing to suggest that.

Again "represents" not "comes from"

To clarify, I am not asserting that there is proof Sentients do have Oro, I am saying that given the vague information we have, the only thing that is suggested directly by the text is that the conclave mechanism is based on something that applies to the sentients.

What I am saying is that the notion of Tenno having "Oro" or even worse, the Orokin, having "Oro" as a metaphysical reality in canon is totally unsuported. and you are misreading the only single line we have on the topic.

To paraphrase Teshin and use your example

Quote

"Dog-tags are the identifying item for an enemy who, like our Army, can identify their soldiers in the field. To kill without collecting identification of an enemy harms our tactical knowledge, To kill such an enemy will not be acknowledged unless you sever the necklace; collect the dogtag and present it to your superiors, and claim true victory"

This is true regardless of whether your army used dog tags or not, correct? A training exercise where dog-tags (That are never seen elsewhere on your soldiers) are provided to allow your army to practice the process, also would not imply in any way that your army actually uses "Dog tags" or needs them.

You see?

 

 

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

"represents" not "is"

I mean, if you're just going to be like that, then arguing is pretty much worthless. By this very same logic the "represents" argument applies to the enemy Teshin is referring to as well.

That's the crux of your argument, that the immortality possessed by the Tenno and "the enemy" are in fact different, when in actuality the quote states that they are the same. Oro represents the resurrection ability of the Tenno and other enemies.

And lets be completely real, the only reason Oro "represents" the resurrection ability is because DE haven't actually worked out how it causes people to resurrect yet. A representation in so much as it's a placeholder for a follow up explanation.

The quote is clear, Tenno have Oro, that Oro represents their ability to resurrect. Interpreting it any other way is deliberately contrarian.

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

You are mistaken, as per Teshin:

In that case, fair enough. Arguably could be referring to something else within the void, but the most likely reference there is Sentients.

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

And none of those beings posess anything that matches the actual conclave Oro mechanism, neither do the Tenno

By your own words, simulation. It doesn't have to be life-like and 100% accurate to how Oro actually works, nor should anyone expect it to. Simulations are regularly simplified.

What these beings (Corrupted Vor and the Queen) absolutely do possess, that Sentient Fragments do not, is resurrection, something attributed to Oro.

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

You know who does drop a glowing core? Sentient Fragments.

Are they ever referred to as Oro? Are we capable of annihilating them in order to sever a connection? Does the Sentient get back up again if we don't pick it up? The Sentient isn't even close to dead when a fragment of it dies, so why would it care about resurrecting?

No, we pick it up to recharge, another Sentient picks it up to recharge or it despawns after a bit.

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

What I am saying is that the notion of Tenno having "Oro" or even worse, the Orokin, having "Oro" as a metaphysical reality in canon is totally unsuported.

There's plenty of supporting evidence, you just disagree with them.

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

You see?

No, I honestly think you lost the plot there.

[kgabor]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, i didn't read the whole thread, but the 'Oro' in the term Orokin might also refer to the Ouroboros.

[189285477593849]

13 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I can and do. The conclave mechanic is a simulation of Tenno vs "an enemy" Tenno do not actually kill Tenno in the conclave, hence the only information we have is what Teshin says and he does not say that Tenno have "Oro" he only says that "An Enemy" does and that the Tenno are _also_ difficult to kill.

I want to also disagree with this guys disagreeing to agree.

[Hokibukisa]

Tenno's oro is also what causes kuva to dissipate when coming into contact with it.