Range buff for Rage/Rest

[PsyFerret]

I'd like to throw out a suggestion/request for a range buff on Equinnox's Rage/Rest. I would like to recommend bringing it's area range (not cast range) from 5m to 15m and to mimic this with the augments spread range as well. It's important to note that this is a subsumed ability and I'd like to see it for the subsumed ability as well.

In regards to Rest, many Frames (equinnox included) would benefit for the increase in the night mode's Rest ability on the simple basis that Crowd Control is occasionally useful (especially for squishier frames). Putting enemies to sleep is an innately powerful sleeping ability that makes it easier to avoid getting shot, which helps with survivability. This can be useful in other farms specifically affinity farming where the stealth multiplier is helpful (though ivara would still be better at that more consistently). There are grouping abilities that also crowd control, but this would put it in the more likely to be considered situation considering it'll have a natural spreading to help avoid dangers that maybe are out of the line of sight of the player when killing enemies. It wouldn't make it immediately a "put it on all the frames" but a "this would definitely work quite well" situation, especially with frames with high murder potential, and enemies still wake up either at end of duration or upon taking enough damage (assuming not a one shot), so it's not the best at crowd control, but quite powerful.

Then comes Rage. There's 2 things that players as a whole really love: Making enemies die faster, and to be more convenient. Rage would do both. Rage is a Equinnox's attempt at being Speedva, but actually wants more power strength. Even with a range increase, Equinnox could never truly replace speedva as speedva has her ability go in a full radius around her to mark the map, and quickly. However, a Rage buff in range would mean that the skill spreads further (making it more useful as 5m is virtually nothing), and with a high enough Ability Strength, can make enemies go faster than speedva (though you need at least 150% strength to match speedva). For many frames, we look at subsuming things like Roar and Empower not because we need bigger damage numbers (though big number is cool), but because there are less enticing offers. Rage would not be an ignorable skill for any farm, as many players would take it to make it so enemies rush to their deaths faster, especially for frames like Rhino, Chroma, Baruuk, Ember, Khora, Saryn Etc. coordinated groups however will not pick using rage over a speedva, but advance players will find a value in it when playing with Randoms.


When we have more compelling options, there will be an increase diversity. Rest and Rage can be top tier abilities, but they're not considerable considering they target such a small group. Even with 200% range, it affects a 10m range, which is still quite small and not useful/considerable at this time. Bumping that to a 15m range will make it much more appealing for all players and with a 200% range of 30m would make it something quite powerful, however to get 200% range requires losing a lot of strength so it becomes less effective, so it has a semi self-balancing situation considering what mods we have available.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

I mostly agree with your points, but I think Rage especially has another problem, too:

Having to aim at the enemies - If I am aiming at them already, I can just shoot them instead.
They are already in range to be visible to me, so I don't really need them to be faster. If it was a radial ability, with a bigger range, it would be useful to bring enemies into range, but like it is now, I can't really see the appeal.

[NinjaZeku]

Complete agreement that Rage in its current state is quite meh.

But, asking for triple the range on Rest, that's just a tad crazy
for a 25 Energy ability that gives stealth (damage as well as Affinity) multipliers,
and would almost guaranteed come with some kind of MASSIVE nerf to balance it out.

Like, to maybe help put things into persective, Bastille, Vauban's ultimate ability, has a mere 10 meters range,
and you want this super-cheap, "public domain" ability to be 50% better in that regard?

[PsyFerret]

10 hours ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

I mostly agree with your points, but I think Rage especially has another problem, too:

Having to aim at the enemies - If I am aiming at them already, I can just shoot them instead.
They are already in range to be visible to me, so I don't really need them to be faster. If it was a radial ability, with a bigger range, it would be useful to bring enemies into range, but like it is now, I can't really see the appeal.

Rage already affects a radius. However, it's incredibly small (5m), which is what I'm requesting a buff on. Glad you agree though :)

4 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Complete agreement that Rage in its current state is quite meh.

But, asking for triple the range on Rest, that's just a tad crazy
for a 25 Energy ability that gives stealth (damage as well as Affinity) multipliers,
and would almost guaranteed come with some kind of MASSIVE nerf to balance it out.

Like, to maybe help put things into persective, Bastille, Vauban's ultimate ability, has a mere 10 meters range,
and you want this super-cheap, "public domain" ability to be 50% better in that regard?

so there's a few things wrong with you're argument I feel.

First, you quote the stealth/affinity multipliers. Yes, stealth damage multipliers are a thing, but for melee weapons only that go through the finisher animation. enemies don't get all damage at that multiplier. And the stealth damage multipliers are similar to the regular finishers that are available to many warframes as is (and inaros' pocket sand says hello on that subject). I wouldn't call this a major selling point on the ability. The Affinity multiplier only works if enemies are completely unaware. for group play, this is almost always a 0% (someone is bound to fire a gun eventually), and many mission types enemies charging at you. The only missions I can think of, in solo play, that this'll be a possibility to really matter are Exterminate, and Ivara does this farm so much better as she can actually guarantee the stealth due to her invisibility + her noise arrow to clump + her cloaking arrow. on top of that, she gets more loot due to her prowl doing the steal. IF, and this is a big if, you're doing the affinity farm that needs this, you're more likely to bring ivara rather than equinnox, even on a good day. Only problem people have with ivara is she's a pain to acquire due to spy missions, and her stealth is slower compared to other frames. However, she's got the perfect kit with a high end damage weapon of a 4.

With the actual multipliers talked about and why that's not really a massive issue, let's talk about your comparison to bastille. It's not a real argument and the "what about x" is a stupid argument. First, Bastille is a 10M radius that hard locks down enemies for the duration of the ability where enemies can't do anything + they get scooped into a single spot. Rest has enemies waking up at 50% health. Not the same at all. Vauban's ability should be compared to Khora's Ensnare (which is subsumable and has half the cost of bastille) and Nidus' Larva (which is also subsumable and has a quarter of the energy cost, albeit a slightly less range compared to bastille) as all 3 of these abilities work the same. Rest doesn't work the same at all compared to those 3 abilities

Rest should be compared to Ivara's Sleep Arrow (which ivara's kit as a whole is better synergized and the damage multipliers aren't much of a factor in my opinion), and Baruuks Lull (which has a 25M range by the way and is subsumable as well). I have yet to hear anyone hyped about Lull being subsumed.

At the end of the day, buffing Rest and Rage will give players more options. I don't think this buff will be is going to see a drastically increase in usage, but will give players more of a reason to look at it and make equinnox's on teams a more delighted party additionn.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Baruuk's Lull has a longer casting animation, is a PBAoE, doesn't immediately put targets to sleep, can't be recast while expanding, and does not reach its maximum range immediately because it propagates and applies a slow first.

There is literally zero reason to allow Equinox's Rest to create a 30m wide bubble of sleep on cast. You say the damage multipliers don't matter? 8x melee damage is a pretty massive increase in damage to just have sitting there in your pocket tied to what is easily one of the strongest CC's you can have in the game.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

2 hours ago, PsyFerret said:

Rage already affects a radius. However, it's incredibly small (5m), which is what I'm requesting a buff on. Glad you agree though :)

I have noticed the radius. What I meant was have it be a an ability centered around the warframe, or have it be a long ranged cone or something. If a target is in sight, ready to be aimed at with the ability, it is already to late to use the ability if our goal was to make the enemy come faster.

[PsyFerret]

3 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Baruuk's Lull has a longer casting animation, is a PBAoE, doesn't immediately put targets to sleep, can't be recast while expanding, and does not reach its maximum range immediately because it propagates and applies a slow first.

There is literally zero reason to allow Equinox's Rest to create a 30m wide bubble of sleep on cast. You say the damage multipliers don't matter? 8x melee damage is a pretty massive increase in damage to just have sitting there in your pocket tied to what is easily one of the strongest CC's you can have in the game.

So, what are you arguing for? I think we can both agree that rest and rage are weak, can we not?

[taiiat]

the factor that you have is that Rest and Rage can be instantaneously Cast, making it easy to hit as many Enemies as you want with it.

it doesn't need any changes because of that. there's things that have larger Ranges but they have more complicated/restricted use - Rest/Rage does not. you can hit basically anything anywhere, with a bit of AoE, for a low cost, as often as you like. 
and that's what the Augment is for anyways, to have it propagate.

[Andele3025]

Edit: derped.

[PsyFerret]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the factor that you have is that Rest and Rage can be instantaneously Cast, making it easy to hit as many Enemies as you want with it.

it doesn't need any changes because of that. there's things that have larger Ranges but they have more complicated/restricted use - Rest/Rage does not. you can hit basically anything anywhere, with a bit of AoE, for a low cost, as often as you like. 
and that's what the Augment is for anyways, to have it propagate.

If we're going to talk about crowd control, and purely crowd control, why would anyone pick anything other than Octavia's Resonator (which is also subsumable). It literally shuts off the ai in a wandering radius of 15m that chases enemies down. That ability is, unmistakably, the best aoe crowd control. The damage multiplier from sleep can be useful if you're dealing with enemies above normal starchart missions and you don't have some kind of defense strip (armor/shield removal). Honestly though, I was playing with some early level players who had just started to get regular fragor as an exciting point and they were able to do some damage to level 60 enemies when I was saryn stripping armor. I ask, again, does the stealth multiplier really make a major difference for you all? Cause I played saryn in eso and was at wave 9 (level 110 enemies?) and with saryn's spores stripping armor I was still cutting through enemies like butter.

The sleep is a soft crowd control. It keeps enemies still for a healthy duration, but if you do too much damage without killing them, they'll get up and move again. the damage multiplier for melee finishers can be useful against like high level noxs or similar tier, but in normal gameplay I can't see it being that useful. 

I think that the arguments I've seen against this buff come to two things: how big is 15m (and even 30m since that was mentioned) and how useful is sleep. If sleep was as useful as everyone was making it to be, I'd see a lot more Ivara's in the wild on regular missions because ivara's sleep arrow is 6m (which at 200% range is 12m compared to equinnox's current 10m), and costs 25 energy as well. I can't recall the last time I saw ivara out of specific use cases (usually sortie spies). As far as 15m goes, that's like 2-3 seconds of holding the W key. It sounds big, but I don't believe the effect is as big as people believe it to be.

I want to emphasize that even with a 15m radius buff to rest and rage, that we're not likely going to see a drastic change in what frames will be used or what abilities are going to be taken (nova is better at crowd control or speeding up enemies as a whole honestly), and I doubt min-maxers are going to chose rest and rage over Resonator or Roar or larva/ensnare or whatever else that's obvious top tier options are. Buffing Rest and Rage will give Equinnox a more stable footing in her own right (and make the decision to replace that ability harder) and making her subsumed ability more appealing to the rest of us who are looking to do something outside of min-max. 

[kgabor]

I'm using a minmaxed build for Rest with Overextended and the augment and with that setup it works as it is currently.

I'm just asking, you really don't think tripling its base range would make it broken?

I mean i'm fine if DE decides this is a good idea, but it wouldn't be as great if they pulled a 'Marked for Death' aka. 'we didn't intend this to work this way 2 electric boogaloo' and make it completely useless.

[taiiat]

43 minutes ago, PsyFerret said:

why would anyone pick anything other than Octavia's Resonator (which is also subsumable).

The sleep is a soft crowd control.

• Control. you pick which Enemies get the CC, and where they get it. or which Enemies take extra Damage but move faster, and when they do.
• Enemy movement - Resonator makes Enemies move, out of your control, in various directions. which just ties back to the Control point, that you have much less control over the Enemies.
• Sleep is not a hard CC, indeed. so it has pros and cons versus other CC options that have more restrictions than Rest does.

43 minutes ago, PsyFerret said:

If sleep was as useful as everyone was making it to be, I'd see a lot more Ivara's

let's try reading again, shall we.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

Rest/Rage does not. you can hit basically anything anywhere, with a bit of AoE, for a low cost, as often as you like. 

Rest/Rage, is a one handed Ability, has no Cast Time, has a low Energy Cost, plus has a bit of AoE.
Sleep Arrow only has the low Energy Cost and AoE parts. Sleep Arrow has significant limitations that Rest/Rage does not. if we're trying to make any real discussion, taking every factor of an Ability into account must be done.

 

 

43 minutes ago, PsyFerret said:

does the stealth multiplier really make a major difference for you all? Cause I played saryn in eso and was at wave 9 (level 110 enemies?) and with saryn's spores stripping armor I was still cutting through enemies like butter.

yes and no. it's a significant Damage increase, however at the same time our Stats are so high and Enemies are so nerfed that it basically doesn't matter, just like a lot of stuff in Damage doesn't matter anymore. Enemies in Steel Path are still weaker than normal Enemies were a few months ago.
and outside of Steel Path, why even bother weakening the Armor of Enemies, you'll oneshot them either way so who even cares.

which fundamentally makes Damage and CC sortof pointless and nothing matters at all if we want to go there, but i don't think that's where we're trying to go here.

43 minutes ago, PsyFerret said:

I doubt min-maxers are going to chose rest and rage over Resonator or Roar or larva/ensnare

as one myself, Larva is certainly quite appealing.
Ensnare is a contender compared to Rest/Rage, with having a much wider AoE plus semi-clustering. that being said, you can't easily hit specific Enemies with Ensnare while not others, and you don't have the option to increase taken Damage either, if we assume that there will be scenarios which that is desired.

but Resonator is useless. no control. it's even generally undesirable to use on Octavia herself, as it interferes with Mallet and also moves Mallet around out of your control. they made some adjustments to Resonator so that it doesn't make Mallet completely useless when it's sitting on top of Resonator, but it's still far from ideal and the increased Threat Level is rarely worth it versus Mallet sitting stationary in a strategic position.
while on other Warframes, you only get a distraction that you don't have control over. if people want CC they don't have control over, they're going to bring a Nyx.

[NinjaZeku]

7 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, but a expanded snap/targetting angle would be nice (as in since its aoe already, let it cast if there is any enemy in the entire crosshair instead of needing to have the target in aim +/mark/dot/point).

Not sure what "snap" exactly means in this context, but the way targeting works for Rest & Rage is already pretty much perfect IMO,
you can freely aim the point of impact, with the ability only going off when enemies are actually within the effect radius
(so you never waste Energy for nothing), and you certainly don't need to aim directly at an enemy or anything like that.

[Andele3025]

11 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

the way targeting works for Rest & Rage is already pretty much perfect

Sorry, brain derped from the short equi farms and my last playtime with her being testing a 64% range build that R&R worked like Gara 2, Xaku Gaze, Trin Vamp, etc.
Tis perfect already indeed.

[Jitsuryoku]

Rage - Absolutely, because the skill literally feels like it was made to make enemies rush you.

Rest - Absolutelly not, because massive AoE sleep is OP

[selig_fay]

Let's make rage an allied damage buff and not buff the radius. I think we all agree that accelerating the enemy has only one niche in the form of Nyx mind control or Revenant thralls, which is actually of little use.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Yeah, no. Equinox main here and I'm sure tripling the radius from 5m to 15m is beyond overpowered for a 25 energy cost ability. If your issue spans with the augment, I believe the augment is the problem itself, since it didn't take into consideration the base radius of the ability. Ideally it could cause it to transfer the effect of one killed enemy to another currently unaffected enemy in 2x or 3x the modded radius of the ability, that way you can spread it the more you hit and kill other enemies.

On 2020-09-22 at 3:49 AM, PsyFerret said:

Then comes Rage. There's 2 things that players as a whole really love: Making enemies die faster, and to be more convenient. Rage would do both. Rage is a Equinnox's attempt at being Speedva, but actually wants more power strength. Even with a range increase, Equinnox could never truly replace speedva as speedva has her ability go in a full radius around her to mark the map, and quickly.

Equinox's Rage that costs 25 Energy is not an attempt at "replacing" speedva, it's an ability that can achieve a similar purpose in a smaller scale, not debuff the world with a single cast of the ability.

On 2020-09-23 at 12:30 AM, taiiat said:

Rest/Rage, is a one handed Ability, has no Cast Time, has a low Energy Cost, plus has a bit of AoE.
Sleep Arrow only has the low Energy Cost and AoE parts. Sleep Arrow has significant limitations that Rest/Rage does not. if we're trying to make any real discussion, taking every factor of an Ability into account must be done.

Wrong, Rest/Rage are actually two-handed casts which interrupt movement, don't allow shooting and the a cast time is of about 0.5s.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Wrong, Rest/Rage are actually two-handed casts which interrupt movement, don't allow shooting and the a cast time is of about 0.5s.

can't say i've experienced such limitations. you can Cast Rest/Rage a dozen times a second if you want, and it doesn't prevent me from moving.
however i don't remember if i can shoot my Guns while Casting it, so i'll accept that i'm probably misguided on that facet. but the others are absolutely true.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

53 minutes ago, taiiat said:

can't say i've experienced such limitations. you can Cast Rest/Rage a dozen times a second if you want, and it doesn't prevent me from moving.
however i don't remember if i can shoot my Guns while Casting it, so i'll accept that i'm probably misguided on that facet. but the others are absolutely true.

Are you talking subsumed or when used by Equinox? it could be a "bug" or that it's implemented differently when used on any other Warframe.

Also, I just double-checked, Equinox can't move or shoot while casting, cast time is not immediate, takes about 0.5s as I said, was able to cast 2 times within 1 second.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Are you talking subsumed or when used by Equinox? it could be a "bug" or that it's implemented differently when used on any other Warframe.

Also, I just double-checked, Equinox can't move or shoot while casting, cast time is not immediate, takes about 0.5s as I said, was able to cast 2 times within 1 second.

i haven't put the Abiilty on another Warframe yet, i'd be surprised if it worked differently there.
can't say i've ever had mobility issues even when spamming Rest/Rage. doesn't stop me from moving while i Cast it several times a second.
lastly i've never measured how much i can spam the Ability, what i know is that if i was to enter a room full of dozens of Enemies, i could spin my Camera in a circle and hit all of them should i decide i need to hit all of them.