What's with the whiplashing opinions?

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Back in the day, I kept seeing people complain about how their multiplayer experience was destroyed by Ash's old Bladestorm, which would target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy cast. 

Today, people are complaining about not being able to target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy who has been *ahem* "marked for death" due to the ability "not working as intended" or something like that. I don't know, I don't own the Mouthwall.

I'm not excusing or supporting "nerf mentality" but like... where's the line? Where do we draw the line?

I've seen so many overlapping opinions from so many Warframe media: YouTube, the forums, Reddit, Discord, Instagram, Twitter...

It's like no one knows what they want, anymore. Who should the developers listen to? What should they be doing? If people don't like the direction the game is going, why are they still here? And if people like the direction the game is going, then why do they cherrypick everything? It's like DE can't do a single thing without doing it """wrong.""" 

If people know what to expect from developers like these having been playing their game for 7 ----ing years, then why do they keep getting upset every time the devs pull something that they usually worked? If yelling didn't work, and yelling even louder didn't work, then what the hell are you wasting your breath for? 

I don't even know what the point of this thread was... I'm just so confused.

[16Bitman]

The old bladestorm made the enemies unkillable to everyone else while Ash was on them, which often meant that Ancient Healers would continue buffing enemies around them while Ash took ages stuck in the "cutscene" to kill it.

 

Different opinions asking for entirely different things are going to exist as long as at least 2 people play this game.

[Kaotyke]

"Rage is an hell of a drug" ~ Zaeed Massani

[(PSN)DidacoJack]

I didn't like M4D pre nerf and I wouldn't have liked old bladestorm back then.

Problem is, all these ranting have "fun" as a staple argument, which is irrelevant because there are different conceptions of what's fun, you CAN'T cater them all.

De should stick to whatever formula allows them to have a healthier development of their game, and sorry to say but room clearing, millions of damage calculator breaking numbers type of fun doesn't allow that.

EDIT: and no,  before anyone says it, LoS was a pretty weak drawback. 

[Loza03]

I've you've ever hung around the Sonic fandom, this might be a familiar answer.

 

Simply put, Warframe's ever-changing nature has major upsides - adaptability, variety, so forth - but its major downside is that it tends to create this mindset. Everyone's familiar with the stereotype of the fans that are aggressively passionate about a music artist's, or a game's, or a film series early works, and as it changes and evolves away from those earlier design traits, they don't either accept the new, or recognise the slow growing-away, but become aggressive?

Well, when a series evolves rapidly and/or has a great deal of change, then this exacerbates that problem. To use Sonic as the example, you have people who are aggressive fans of the Classic games, people who only value adventure-era values in the games, 'Dark Ages' fans who love the experimental nature of that part of the series, or modern sonic hardliners who view all the others as 'living in the past' or something. Of course with a franchise as old and as notoriously changeable as the Hedgehog, there's plenty more, but those are the common stereotypes. Warframe is the same way. With as much change in philosophy as the game has gone through over the years, with dozens of metas and playstyles, you have groups in the fandom that aggressively prefer their style of play over others. And that leads to the effect mentioned.

 

Everyone wants their old Warframe back. Even some of the devs, it seems. And I can't really blame them, but in my opinion DE is going to need to take a stand, and make a decision about what they, as a whole want the game to be.

[Liljeman]

Bigger playerbase means more and louder opinions, gets harder and harder to please them all as a game is growing.

[Tsukinoki]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Back in the day, I kept seeing people complain about how their multiplayer experience was destroyed by Ash's old Bladestorm, which would target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy cast. 

They were complaining for one major reason:
Enemies marked by Bladestorm couldn't be damaged by anyone else until they were hit by bladestorm.
If there are enough enemies marked then it could take a very long time.

At the same time those enemies could still be buffing other units, or even attack objectives and other players with absolutely nothing that could be done to interact with them!

And it was entirely possible for a minimum strength, max range, max efficiency Ash to just make a defense wave continue on for as long as they have the energy to spam the move when it ends...and if they have energy pads on them then you quite literally can't stop them until they get bored or the enemies actually manage to die.

It was horribly un-fun for the rest of the squad.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

've seen so many overlapping opinions from so many Warframe media: YouTube, the forums, Reddit, Discord, Instagram, Twitter...

It's like no one knows what they want, anymore.

As long as you have more than one person playing the game you will have conflicting opinions and wants.
Its why listening to much to the playerbase is a bad idea...and its part of the reason warframe is in the mess that its in.

Fact is that people don't know what they want, and those wants change very quickly.

[SenorClipClop]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Back in the day, I kept seeing people complain about how their multiplayer experience was destroyed by Ash's old Bladestorm, which would target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy cast. 

Today, people are complaining about not being able to target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy who has been *ahem* "marked for death" due to the ability "not working as intended" or something like that.

These people probably aren't the same people. People complaining in the second group probably have a none-too-small overlap with people who defended old Bladestorm.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Everyone wants their old Warframe back. Even some of the devs, it seems. And I can't really blame them, but in my opinion DE is going to need to take a stand, and make a decision about what they, as a whole want the game to be.

I agree, Even if the end result may not be what i personally like i would like to know what the hell DE actually wants to do with their game. Cause as of now it feels like a witches cauldron where the apprentice threw in anything he could find to see what happens.

 

As to the topic at hand.

 

Old bladestorm:

hit through walls,

kept enemies alive (and unkillable by others) for the whole duration of the animation but kept doing damage for the duration of the ability.

LOL i just realized how similar the old bladestorm and current saryn spore is - not exact but very similar.

 

pre nerf MFD:

Did not hit through walls,

Damaged enemies instantly for a single instance of attack based on buggy double dipping multipliers on mods , weapons and skills,

 

Post Nerf MFD:

Does not hit through walls,

Damages enemies instantly without double dipping,

cannot crit,

Radial damage cannot exceed current health of enemy,

Damage Is capped at 75% of damage done to marked enemy.

 

The highlighted points are what they need to look at.

The ability is still kinda usable but impractical unless target has 35% or more health than the surrounding enemies,

you could get better output by using melee attacks/grouping abilities and save energy and time.

 

P.S.

The community isnt a hive mind, there will always be factions with differing opinions.

 

[ReddyDisco]

41 minutes ago, 16Bitman said:

The old bladestorm made the enemies unkillable to everyone else while Ash was on them, which often meant that Ancient Healers would continue buffing enemies around them while Ash took ages stuck in the "cutscene" to kill it.

that sounds hilarious lmao

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The game got larger and has more people. 

And some people aren't used to being challenged and take offense to someone not agreeing with them and their weak logic and entitled attitudes.

[JackHargreav]

Well what you're seeing is just the community being bipolar.

There's a part of the community which wants to have some balance, there's an other one which says "Saryn and Mesa exists". There's a part that wants Challenge and an other which prefers the casual difficulty we have.

And this won't change ever. For for every change there's gonna be at least one complaint all the time, regardless if the change is "bad" or "good".

I personally think the latest nerfs were good. And unlike the Ember nerf they were harmless. Xoris was just one stat stick out of many stat sticks, except it was more comfortable since it didn't need anything really to get it working. And getting it was also really easy.

The Bramma was also a pretty big problem as it was capable of oneshoting almost entire rooms and of course that meant everyone was using it. In almost every squad you got a someone who had that weapon.

Marked for Death was an other ability that needed really minimal effort to use. And it was able to oneshot almost anything you can think of. On top of that you didn't need to subsume a single frame AND as a helminth ability you could put it on any frame. Which in solo doesn't mean that much. But in a squad setting it would have been an annoyance. Now the "Buh Saryhn anh Mehsha" crowd probably never use those frame. First of all those are Warframes. Not just an ability that can be slapped on anything. And second Mesa has the limitation of high energy drain and line of sight, while saryn has to spread her spores and the spores have to ramp up damage. I'm not gonna say these frames don't need a bit of a nerf but let's face it. They aren't all that big of a problem. Or at least not as big of a problem as M4D was or could have been.

If M4D stays the way it is, whatever. It's not the end of the world. If DE makes it stronger, that's fine as long as it doesn't turn every frame into a mini nuke.

 

[Monolake]

All the people who wanted any skilled gameplay and minmaxing thats worth it simply quit for better games, or only farm Eidolons - since its the only activity that rewards active playing.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

3 hours ago, (PS4)DidacoJack said:

I didn't like M4D pre nerf and I wouldn't have liked old bladestorm back then.

Problem is, all these ranting have "fun" as a staple argument, which is irrelevant because there are different conceptions of what's fun, you CAN'T cater them all.

De should stick to whatever formula allows them to have a healthier development of their game, and sorry to say but room clearing, millions of damage calculator breaking numbers type of fun doesn't allow that.

EDIT: and no,  before anyone says it, LoS was a pretty weak drawback. 

Inb4 people use saryn, mesa, and khora as terrible examples. Frankly I hope khora gets nerfed 

[killerJoke66]

4 hours ago, (PS4)DidacoJack said:

I didn't like M4D pre nerf and I wouldn't have liked old bladestorm back then.

Problem is, all these ranting have "fun" as a staple argument, which is irrelevant because there are different conceptions of what's fun, you CAN'T cater them all.

De should stick to whatever formula allows them to have a healthier development of their game, and sorry to say but room clearing, millions of damage calculator breaking numbers type of fun doesn't allow that.

EDIT: and no,  before anyone says it, LoS was a pretty weak drawback. 

all your posts tldr seems like is  ; we shouldnt have big numbers and old ash bladestorm was on the same comparableness level to M4D thus deserved nerf ? 

[killerJoke66]

saryn still clears tilesets /not just room or rooms) anf khora does above millions of damage aoe with pseudo-melee .. they cant nerf these 2 without a huge backlash .. i dont see your premise becoming reality anytime soon , if DE s philosophy on balance (as if that exists) were to not room clear , these frames wouldnt be here in the first place . 

[killerJoke66]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Inb4 people use saryn, mesa, and khora as terrible examples. Frankly I hope khora gets nerfed 

sorry but those frames will always be in the equation when in comes to balance , thats just the way things go , you cant nerf a weapon or a frame and call it logical when those of you mention exists , its that simple . hate it or not thats the way , doesnt matter if you call that a terrible example theyre always gonna be compared against everything in the game .

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

. I'm just so confused.

that's why I don't go out of my way to understand this community's mentality on some things. one minority speaks up and egts their way, then the other minority calls out, it's like having two captains trying to take the wheel of a ship at the same time..

[(PSN)goonie4good]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

it's like having two captains trying to take the wheel of a ship at the same time..

You trying to fly my railjack bro?!

[DrivaMain]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Inb4 people use saryn, mesa, and khora as terrible examples. Frankly I hope khora gets nerfed 

I hope they finally shoot these 3 frames downs. These &((#*#*# keep stealing my kills. Oh and rework ESO and Defense too so these frames aren’t necessary.

[Kaggelos]

9 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

"Rage is an hell of a drug" ~ Zaeed Massani

Ah, a fellow Mass Effect fan. Ready for the remastered trilogy?

[VanFanel1980mx]

9 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Back in the day, I kept seeing people complain about how their multiplayer experience was destroyed by Ash's old Bladestorm, which would target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy cast. 

Today, people are complaining about not being able to target anything and everything in a 50 mile radius off of one targeted enemy who has been *ahem* "marked for death" due to the ability "not working as intended" or something like that. I don't know, I don't own the Mouthwall.

I'm not excusing or supporting "nerf mentality" but like... where's the line? Where do we draw the line?

I've seen so many overlapping opinions from so many Warframe media: YouTube, the forums, Reddit, Discord, Instagram, Twitter...

It's like no one knows what they want, anymore. Who should the developers listen to? What should they be doing? If people don't like the direction the game is going, why are they still here? And if people like the direction the game is going, then why do they cherrypick everything? It's like DE can't do a single thing without doing it """wrong.""" 

If people know what to expect from developers like these having been playing their game for 7 ----ing years, then why do they keep getting upset every time the devs pull something that they usually worked? If yelling didn't work, and yelling even louder didn't work, then what the hell are you wasting your breath for? 

I don't even know what the point of this thread was... I'm just so confused.

The game doesn't have a real direction when it comes to the power it will give to the player, this creates confusion, some players feel the need to be "competitive" in a co-op game, some others just want to use their superpowers to delete a room full of enemies, developers usually pander to the first group every now and then or just see player efficiency as an inconvenience to their monetization model.

[Marvelous_A]

Actually years ago I'd have just taken the suggestion of enemies under Bladestorm are not invulnerable to damage from other sources. But for some reason DE decided to make some bizarre changes to BS and render it (and subsequently Ash as a whole) completely useless. Ash has never been the same ever since.

Now I'd rather they scrap BS completely it's not useful anyway. 

[Hokibukisa]

I don't think there has ever been consensus on anything just dominant opinions.

Usually its the metaslave whiners with an olympian entitlement complex that dominate the forums and youtubes.

I mean, they use the word "pre-nerf" unironically.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Actually years ago I'd have just taken the suggestion of enemies under Bladestorm are not invulnerable to damage from other sources. But for some reason DE decided to make some bizarre changes to BS and render it (and subsequently Ash as a whole) completely useless. Ash has never been the same ever since.

Now I'd rather they scrap BS completely it's not useful anyway. 

Not useful to casual pug nukers that are weak players anyway*