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Helminth: Railjack Resources + Bile Changes.


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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Stop.  Take a breath.  Look at what you are saying.

 

Now that we're here, let's talk about this.

1) The content hasn't been out two months.  If it was the subsuming would already be done.  There are 40 something frames.  There was about 72 hours of wait.  I have about 12 frames remaining, thus this content had been out for a single month.  Simplistic math here.

Sounds like some pretty sustainable content (something people have asked for) if you admit you're almost done in one more month. If you only have 12 more frames to subsume that's a pretty good amount for rushing the content. 2 months to complete something that's such a major piece of content sounds pretty good.

 

2) Nano spore farming is a joke, right?  In any two runs of a variety of places I can farm a bunch of them.  I've literally never cared about farming them, but have millions of them lying around.  They aren't something that requires a dedicated farm, they're the resource which accumulates without any real consideration.  This is why they have requirements in the same range as alloy plate, ferrite, and salvage.  

 

3) MMO elements are not an excuse.  Period, end of sentence.  Care to argue?  MMO is massive multiplayer online.  An MMO has nothing to do with grind, but it has everything to do with player interactions. (Except for all of the ways to solo in MMOs like fishing or crafting or an actual separate mode to go solo to utilize your own time and playstyle etc. So it's actually not all about player interaction, it's the choice and freedom to interact when one is ready and also have your own alone time) Let me be clear, Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.  The "grind" is rewarded every step of the way.  I start out, get loot, and craft.  I get more powerful items.  I then go out and get better loot, and craft better items, and get stronger.  Repeat until the endgame content, where I can spend hours grinding for any one thing, but will always get more power for my time.Let me be blunt, warframe doesn't do this.  Warframe has an artificial power ceiling. An MMO has nothing to do with grind, yet you just provided an example of grind from another MMO (Guild Wars). I saw nothing about player interaction within your sentence "I start out, get loot, and craft.  I get more powerful items.  I then go out and get better loot, and craft better items, and get stronger.  Repeat until the endgame content, where I can spend hours grinding for any one thing". Sounds like your basic MMO that is actually about both grind and player interaction, simultaneously.....Just like warframe, where your grind can be made much easier through player interaction e.g. "Hey buddy, I'm a farm frame, can you bring your Speed Nova and come farm with me? Cool".

And that's odd, because I just grinded endo and credits to use on a Primed mod, which made me stronger as a result....I guess I got more power for my time....because I can see the difference that Primed faction mod makes clear as day.

Why?  Well, the issues with most long term gaming is power creep.  Old gear becomes garbage because hammer +2 always beats hammer +1.  What warframe has instead done is introduce a litany of new resources, each added and largely forgotten about once the content is done.  They then make token appearances later.  I will elaborate and ask when you last cared about Hexenon, Grokdrul, Thermal Sludge, and other items was (prior to the Helminth).  The answer for most people is that the second you were done grinding you stopped caring.  Now the Helminth is actually requiring some of this stuff.  Yay. 

So, what's the correct balance for suddenly needing a litany of resources?  Well, DE doesn't have it.  The lazy way is to pull player data, identify the top 5% of players inventories, average this out, and then divide by some value to make inventories disappear.  That's a bad idea.  Why?  Well, that means we could literally be seeing 100k of alloy plates or ferrite as a single infusion.  Ouch. 100k ferrite and alloy is not a lot....That must mean they have an alternative method.  Well, the next easiest solution is units per drop, multiplied by desired drop count, and divided by rarity.  This effectively would mean that you are expected to run an average number of missions to get the thing.  Well, 3 argon and 1000 fresnels indicates they didn't do that math.  Wow.  It's almost like there was no planning. 

They've adjusted the railjack resources, as everyone seemed to be in agreement they were high. It was the most recent game mode and wasn't being played as much. Argon Crystals are incredibly easy to obtain, so that's not an issue for a capable player. 

 

4) MR 8 is the lock.  MR 10 locks automatically slotting ayatan stars.  MR 16 is the last level with anything locked currently, and it's rivens.  DE decided to go from MR 15 to MR 8.  With it they set the tone.  The argument that "this isn't for newer players" died when they decided to go that low. Or they were trying to be more inclusive. We don't know, as we'd need an official response from DE as to why they lowered it to MR 8. Any tone set or arguments made invalid are your own speculation and nothing more until a statement is released. Your speculation doesn't become more than such just because you really want it to mean something.

Might I have a reason for this stance?  Did DE ever directly contradict your point, and support mine?  Yes on both counts.  Prior to the launch of Deimos Rebecca gave an interview, stating that the Helminth system was locked to a higher mastery rank because there's too much for a new player to do with it.  DE then changed it from a 30% content to 10% content lock.  If you want to argue that it isn't intended for newbies, you have to explain the shift.  My only option is to say DE wanted it for experienced players, then caved to demand from somewhere to change.  Why?  Likely because Deimos was content light without it.

We don't know why DE lowered the MR requirement, you have to ask them.....But it's already been established there were many complaints against it....If I were to speculate, DE was trying to not exclude players, which is a nice thing to do. That however doesn't mean they have to lower the entire bar. They let the MR 8s in the door, but now it's that MR8s own responsibility to put the work in if he for some reason, absolutely has to subsume 10 frames as soon as possible. That demand to subsume x amount of frames is in his own head. That MR 8 needs to work with what he has and have a goal of subsuming 1 or 2 frames until he has more resources, where he originally would not have had the option to even participate. 

 

5) But by the time you get to Deimos you might not have resources.

But nothing.  Show me a player that has the ability to feed anything to the Helminth and I'll show you a player with enough resources to burn.  Run the Jackal enough to get the blue prints for Rhino, Vay Hek for Hydroid, and Kril for Excalibur and you'll have resources in nearly everything.  Take even a minor diversion in Deimos and you will have everything.  Like it or not, DE restructured resources with Deimos to give you access to everything but Hexenon prior to setting foot on Deimos.

Now, explain why it is unreasonable to demand that rewards in this game are reasonable.

Rewards are reasonable in many aspects. You're gonna have to be more specific. Some players have unreasonable expectations for rewards and I have not seen an explanation for that yet, either....So I guess it goes both ways. It is completely possible for both DE and some players to be unreasonable....what a surprise, I guess things aren't one-sided. 

 

6) Final point here, grind is not fun.  There is no debate. There actually is....your statements dealing in absolutes don't change that, sorry. What is fun is obtaining rewards (that you've completed something for, as they don't fall out of the sky), completing challenges, or getting new stuff (Which you get from completing something)  You say that an internally driven challenge is what spurs you, fine.  After literal days of survivals against the same brain dead AI that wins by scaling, I don't care.  I likewise don't care about cosmetic rewards (some people do, and also grind for them, as well as buy them, it's their choice).  I do care about tangible things.  In the case of the Helminth that's not flowers on the wall, but applying abilities to frames.  Removing airburst from Zephyr, Ballistic Battery from Mesa, and adding Tesla Nervos to Limbo is the reward.  The cost is time.

I then derive fun from melting enemies easier, because the game is a power fantasy. (We were melting things before the Helminth, but sure).

The obstacle to this is bad economy.  I have a timer for subsumes.  I have a material cost for subsumes.  I have a feed system requiring a timer.  The timer there can decrease costs by 90% by waiting.  I can only have three powers per frame, but I literally cannot apply some in tandem in a single day because their cost exceeds what I can generate reasonably.  All of this points to a crap economy, that is driving a system into the ground, built atop broken promises.

The timers are nothing new, and no one said DE is obligated to cater to your content-rushing playstyle. Maybe try enjoying the frames you have already subsumed while you wait? You didn't even know the Helminth existed 30 days ago....so because you decided you want it faster the game should just let you...... because just 30 days ago.... you randomly without cause.....decided you dont care about anything but subsuming frames and melting enemies? That's what you said, correct? You don't care about cosmetics or fighting braindead AI....But you also just stated you want to melt enemies....so which one is it? Do you like fighting braindead AI or not? 

So, how do we fix it?

Lowest effort is to slap in more resource types. According to who? Who has decided this is lowest effort?

Minimum effort to show concern is to add resources, and review costings. Once again....who decided this is minimum effort? And they've already reviewed costings....This is what the OP is about.

Maximum effort is to review resources, review costings, and review the ability costs to bring them in line with the promised ability to iterate. Who decided that was maximum effort?

DE decided on the lowest possible effort (Who decided this?)...That speaks volumes about how little of a crap they give 30+days into this.  As such, it smells like another system delivered with no reason to care once it is used on your frame of choice.  It won't suddenly let you customize the frame you never use into something fun. (Your subjective opinion) It won't give us whole new ways to play.  It'll just be the source of a few meta builds, which will eventually get nerfed if they ever get too good. Opinion. You don't decide what people play with. You're more than welcome to only follow the meta, no one made you, and no one said the current level of customization isn't fun. "Fun" is subjective, which is why you don't decide what it is for other people.

 

Just...wow.

 

Sustainable content is not something released with a finite end date.  Sustainable content is something with an input effort, a resultant output reward, and said reward is infinitely usable.  What is that in Warframe?  Well, Rivens.  That's literally it.  Rivens can be awarded, re-rolled for better statistics, and there's a negligible chance of actually getting a perfect one.  A system requiring the number of days that matches the number of frames is something released with a finite end date.

 

 

The example provided with Guild Wars was not grind.  You seem to be missing the point.  Grind is completing the same thing again and again, to try and get something.  It's not grind to go out and harvest 3000 nano spores to build a gun.  It is grind to go out and harvest nano spores, to then have them converted into 30% of another resource, to wait 24 hours, to have them converted into 30% more, to wait another 24 hours, to get a total of 90%, to then have to have received the drops for a frame blue print, to have built it in 12 hours, to then have to wait 72 hours for the frame to build, to then subsume the frame, to wait 23 hours, to finally get access to a power, that requires two more days of grinding nano spores, to finally be able to apply a power, that I may not find interesting because it does not synergize well.

That monsterous run-on sentence is the Helminth.  Multiple wait timers, multiple harvest timers, and the end delivery is a power that may not be good.  The input time and effort, output reward is not grind.  Grind is layering inputs, layering timers, and having an output that is not an improvement.

Why use Guild Wars 2 then?  Simple.  Each item has a cost.  Each encounter has a reward.  Even if the reward isn't what you want, it can be directly used to get what you want.  The difference with Warframe is that it's RNG.  No finite rewards, no guaranteed outcome, so the grind is fundamental.  Other MMORPGs don't do this because eventually the RNG becomes toxic...but DE has leaned in and doubled-down.

 

 

Endo and primed mods....in a discussion about the Helminth.  It's a diversion, but let me answer.  You grind to get relics.  You grind to open them (potentially grinding other relics to get void traces to enrich them).  You get primed trash.  Said primed trash is converted into ducats.  Said ducats can be spent once a fortnight, on an RNG assortment of goods.  You get lucky, and get a new mod.  You then enter RNG drops in something like arbitrations.  You get endo, or ayatan sculptures.  If you get sculptures you then grind for stars.  Once you have enough endo you cash it in on a relay.  You then spend credits and endo to upgrade the mod.  Given the high drain, you then have to forma the thing you're applying it to.  A forma requires a blue print drop, then resources, and 23 hours to wait.  Applying that forma then requires you to grind it back up to level 30-40 to get all of that mod capacity back.  Repeat for all items requiring the usage of that mod.

Let's talk.  If you don't see the grind here, I would recommend that you see an optometrist.  Even if that primed mod came from a login reward, we're looking at a minimal grind for forma and an RNG grind for endo.  This is how you start with a direct reward, and devolve into three or more levels of grind to actually make it useful.  If you're happy with that I'd suggest you stop playing games and simply start trying to manually find all of the prime numbers.  It's more rewarding than this construct for society, and delivers the same level of layered grind between reward and input.

 

 

Your resource numbers are idiotic.  Let's be real.  If something drop rarely, and 1 at a time, then requiring 1000 is idiotic.  That's obvious, but DE decided it was fine.  If something drops commonly, and in the hundreds, 20k isn't bad.  Now what is bad is getting maybe 3k on a mission, and it costing 100k like I said.  That's 34 missions....and you're saying that everything is fine.  Are you even thinking about the words before you type them?

If this was truly a veteran system, lock it behind MR 20.  Keep the pricing the same.  This locks out most of the community, but you get to say that it's for veterans so should require huge resource investment.  Fine.  You then also get to say that veterans will not engage fully.  Why?  They'll find the 10 of 40 or so powers that are good, and that's all that will be worth subsuming.  Then they stop.  Why do I say this?  Airburst, Terrify, Ballistic Battery, and a litany of other powers suck.  Veterans will not spend resources to have access to them, and you'll be left with a new high level ability meta.

Now, that would be fine.  What we got was not that.  MR 15 became MR 8.  If that's the bar, then it's stupid to require 30+ runs of a mission to get a common resource.  Again, DE set this model up.  Arguing that it's somehow not the reality is like looking at ground beef, and claiming that it's actually filet mignon.  You're welcome to claim that, but I'm not paying filet prices for ground beef.  If you want filet prices I want a filet.

 

 

The railjack resources have not been announced.  They literally went live with the 29.2.0 release.  That's not a fix, and not communicating.

 

 

Subsuming and the MR lock is set by the structure of rewards.  Rank is earned by subsumes and consuming resources.  That is to say feed the Helminth, drain the resources with subsuming, drain it by applying powers, or the base add of subsuming.  This means that once unlocked there's literally nothing stopping people from putting things in.  Your speculation and mine don't matter.  The thing that matters is they set costs, a MR requirement, and a reward system via ranking that was stupid.  None of this gives you a reason to claim this is for experienced players like you have.  You make that claim to justify pricing, which is backwards in the extreme.

 

 

You seem to want to change the definition of words.  Funny that.  Grind is not a reward, and thus not fun by definition.  That isn't an opinion, that's a definition.  Let me make the argument you should have made.  "I can insert my own goals and rewards into the system, and thereby make the grind internally rewarding."  Unfortunately you seem incapable of making that argument, and want to redefine grind.

Let me answer that argument, as it's the only acceptable argument that doesn't devalue you and your time.  Internally developed goals, to spur your own rewards are great.  They do address grind, but that's really you fixing the game for the developers.  It's the developers forcing you to make fun where there is none.  While I cannot argue against you having fun, I can argue that requiring me to make a game fun is idiotic.  People have played WoW for years, without burning out.  They have raid bosses that might drop garbage loot, but people keep coming back because it's fun.  Warframe introduces bosses, and they're just a means to get one reward.  They do things like Eidolons, that are so buggy that sometimes you cannot engage with them.  Despite this people find fun in speed running bosses, or using only a fishing spear to kill bosses, or other challenges they set.  I don't play a game to make it fun, I play a game to have fun.  Grind is a developer trying to force engagement time, without giving me fun.

 

 

You make some judgements about me...and it's not the first time.  You claim my play style doesn't have to be catered to, and ignore the mechanics I've cited which support the argument.  You claim that my statements about wanting power in a power fantasy is already happening, which is a completely derpy argument.  You then claim that somehow I'm arguing that DE needs to make me happy, while ignoring the regular statement that I have 100k+ cryotic so I don't really have a problem giving up 3k and the point is that it is not reasonable for people who will wander into this system in a few months.  You top all of this off with the argument that I want immediate satisfaction, despite previously stating the focus system is something I appreciate.

Can you get a better strawman?  It's getting old saying this again and again.  I have no problem working for a reward.  I have immense problems turning that work into a grind.  You want to redefine grind to mean literal hours of doing a mission as not grind, then there's nothing to discuss here.  You will accept anything DE does, so stop trying to talk.  This isn't a game with 30+ hour raid bosses, and it's not even a game with raids anymore.  Wanting to beat it into that is bizarre.

 

 

 

Let's talk about solutions. 

Lowest effort was to offer more resource, because they have a huge pool and simply slap some more in.  It's lowest effort because it require no thought to balance, only adds more way to get a resource players are complaining about the loudest.

Minimum effort to show that DE is listening is to add options, and then balance.  This shows they realize the costs are high, and their initial promise of an iterative system is wrong.  They've taken a month to address just railjack.  That indicates that they don't care, and see things as fine.  That bodes poorly for this being an iterative and experimental system, because it's too resource and timer intensive.

Maximum effort is to set human resources to finding a balance, and reviewing the system.  Who defined that was reality.  A review like this costs manpower.  It takes time, and money.  If you don't get it, DE is a business.  They put in time to release a beta, and out came the initial costing.  The reward was engagement, and potentially money spent on resource boosters and or rush time.  The reward for reviewing and reworking the system is long term engagement, which is much harder to cost justify.

 

DE is a company.  Are you looking for me to magically cite a name for who decided on the MR change?  That's stupid.  Literally all that can be cited is the post where it changed.  I can cite that their community manager did an interview, stating that it was ideal to lock this behind a MR 15 gate.  I can cite it introduced as such.  I can then cite a sudden change to things, including the MR gate and the power of certain abilities.  As an FYI, you can do this to.  Who actually made the decision?  It doesn't matter.  It's like you're trying to find someone to blame.  The truth is it doesn't matter.  DE as a whole released this.  It doesn't matter what individuals thought, because I only see the release.  Their release was MR 8 locked, so it needed to match that requirements with expectations.  If you want to construct a world where that isn't reality, that's fine.  It's useless because we live in this one, but go ahead.

It really seems like you want to defend somebody here.  Can't tell if that's projection, or you have some skin in the game here.  Either way, it's stupid to want to cite issues and require a name associated with things.  It's not like knowing Feliz Cortez (a made up name) programmed airburst does anything to fixing it.  I can only say it's a bad ability, and ask DE to fix it.

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so basically no changes? just logged in saw the grab bag kinda thing and was like oh cool maybe its cheaper now... nope. 

15,000 copernics??? seriously?

400 Isos??? mind you i played railjackfor monthsevenafter everyone left it and i only had 3000

and 1000 fresnels even tho in all the time railjack has ever existed i have only ever had about 10,000 right now i have around 6000

and dont mistake me for a minute the railjack resources are hilariously expensive here.

and lets not forget the bile sack should probably be in the bile category.

Now granted I'm on xbox i cant feed helmintht the new stuff but for god sakes come on. here is at least what the railjack resources should be like

asterite 1000
gallos rods 50
Nullstones 50
Aucrux capacitors 10
Kesslers 5
Khomms 5
Bracoid 50
pustrels 1000
coperniocs 1000
Fresnels 100
Isos 50

these are what they should probably look like to be more in tune with everything else and properly balanced that way at least railjack is also worth doing for things other than railjack.

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22 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Just...wow.

 

Sustainable content is not something released with a finite end date.  Sustainable content is something with an input effort, a resultant output reward, and said reward is infinitely usable (Like your Helminth frames? You're not throwing those away when you're done and I assume plan to use them as long as you are playing the game, correct?).  What is that in Warframe?  Well, Rivens.  That's literally it.  Rivens can be awarded, re-rolled for better statistics, and there's a negligible chance of actually getting a perfect one.  A system requiring the number of days that matches the number of frames is something released with a finite end date. This makes zero sense, could you attempt to explain that better? Are you trying to say that because the Helminth can take up to 44 days to complete, or that because it has time gates, that it is finite? That doesn't make any sense so I hope you have a better explanation.

There's no current end date for the helminth. It can be used in the foreseeable future. You're more than welcome to finish your frames and never touch the content again, but I'll be using this system for quite some time. It is sustainable to me. That's a subjective opinion and doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game. I'm just choosing not to rush the content so it will be useful to me for quite some time is all.

 

The example provided with Guild Wars was not grind.  You seem to be missing the point.  Grind is completing the same thing again and again, to try and get something.  It's not grind to go out and harvest 3000 nano spores to build a gun.  It is grind to go out and harvest nano spores, to then have them converted into 30% of another resource, to wait 24 hours, to have them converted into 30% more, to wait another 24 hours, to get a total of 90%, to then have to have received the drops for a frame blue print, to have built it in 12 hours, to then have to wait 72 hours for the frame to build, to then subsume the frame, to wait 23 hours, to finally get access to a power, that requires two more days of grinding nano spores, to finally be able to apply a power, that I may not find interesting because it does not synergize well. Ability descriptions come with the frames....you can actually read all about them beforehand to determine if you want to use said ability. And many people pre-farmed their frames ahead of time when the Helminth was announced, and some already had the frames to begin with. If you waited until the last minute, adding more grind, that's on you. Like I said, no one made you rush the content.

That monsterous run-on sentence is the Helminth.  Multiple wait timers, multiple harvest timers, and the end delivery is a power that may not be good.  The input time and effort, output reward is not grind.  Grind is layering inputs, layering timers, and having an output that is not an improvement. Once again, Warframe uses time-gating. This is a reality you're gonna have to face. It has been in the game for quite some time so please explain how this is a surprise to you now, just because you want something really badly (something you already have, but just want more of it, faster). This is the particular system they choose to use. They're really never just gonna completely get rid of it because a few outliers have no patience or time management at all, sorry. They reduced forma from 24 to 23 hours, so there you go. Try to plan ahead and always have something crafting, like the people that already had frames ready to go once the Helminth was released. 

Why use Guild Wars 2 then?  Simple.  Each item has a cost.  Each encounter has a reward.  Even if the reward isn't what you want, it can be directly used to get what you want.  The difference with Warframe is that it's RNG.  No finite rewards, no guaranteed outcome, so the grind is fundamental.  Other MMORPGs don't do this because eventually the RNG becomes toxic...but DE has leaned in and doubled-down.

I haven't played Guild Wars, but I'm pretty sure you can't take a new level 1 character and participate in the latest endgame content within a week. Most online games have some type of grind. If you can completely finish Guild Wars in 2 weeks from level 0 to the highest and rarest gear possible, then that's great. Unfortunately you still couldn't pay me to play Guild Wars 2. I'm glad you like it, but this isn't Guild Wars.....and DE is under no obligation to completely copy their system. 

Endo and primed mods....in a discussion about the Helminth.  It's a diversion (It was actually my response to you saying warframe doesn't reward you for grinding, so that was one example of how I was rewarded for grinding. Sorry for not clarifying that.), but let me answer.  You grind to get relics. (You get them by passively playing the game) You grind to open them (A 2 minute capture mission isn't a grind, and neither is a 6 minute defense round) (potentially grinding other relics to get void traces to enrich them).  You get primed trash.  Said primed trash is converted into ducats. (or sold as a set for 20 to 50 plat which can be used in other areas of the game or to avoid what you consider grind if needed, once again providing options ) Said ducats can be spent once a fortnight, on an RNG assortment of goods. (which can be sold or traded for something else) You get lucky, and get a new mod.  You then enter RNG drops in something like arbitrations.  You get endo, or ayatan sculptures.  If you get sculptures you then grind for stars (Ambers can be crafted, otherwise I have 50 amber and over 100 Cyan from playing the game normally, try to break more containers).  Once you have enough endo you cash it in on a relay.  You then spend credits and endo to upgrade the mod.  Given the high drain, you then have to forma the thing you're applying it to.  A forma requires a blue print drop, (You get forma resources from playing the game normally...I have hundreds upon hundreds of forma resources, the only issue is the blueprints which happen to drop incredibly easily)and 23 hours to wait.  (this is where planning ahead comes in once again. I have multiple forma blueprints and always have them crafting) Applying that forma then requires you to grind it back up to level 30-40 to get all of that mod capacity back.  Repeat for all items requiring the usage of that mod.

Let's talk.  If you don't see the grind here, I would recommend that you see an optometrist.  Even if that primed mod came from a login reward, we're looking at a minimal grind for forma and an RNG grind for endo. (Unless you're completely new, you'll already have this stuff ready. We just had a 2x credit entire week, that stacks with your own credit booster, and it only takes 40k endo to rank a Primed mod, between duplicate mods, a few arbitration runs and recently Deimos bounties you'll be good to go. These are also some of the best mods in the game.....yet you dont even need them for most of the games content. They're a level of progression not meant for new people. Regular mods are therefore even less of a grind. Excess endo and credits can also be used to sell fully ranked mods, giving you plat to buy something else you would like) This is how you start with a direct reward, and devolve into three or more levels of grind to actually make it useful.  If you're happy with that I'd suggest you stop playing games and simply start trying to manually find all of the prime numbers.  It's more rewarding than this construct for society, and delivers the same level of layered grind between reward and input.

 

 

Your resource numbers are idiotic.  Let's be real.  If something drop rarely, and 1 at a time, then requiring 1000 is idiotic.  That's obvious, but DE decided it was fine.  If something drops commonly, and in the hundreds, 20k isn't bad.  Now what is bad is getting maybe 3k on a mission, and it costing 100k like I said.  That's 34 missions....and you're saying that everything is fine.  Are you even thinking about the words before you type them? You're assuming someone is starting from 0 resources....are you even thinking? That person has already completed those 34 missions and already has those resources. 

If this was truly a veteran system, lock it behind MR 20. People asked and didnt get it. Life goes on. Keep the pricing the same.  This locks out most of the community, but you get to say that it's for veterans so should require huge resource investment.  Fine.  You then also get to say that veterans will not engage fully.  Why?  They'll find the 10 of 40 or so powers that are good, and that's all that will be worth subsuming.  Then they stop.  Why do I say this?  Airburst, Terrify, Ballistic Battery, and a litany of other powers suck.  Veterans will not spend resources to have access to them, and you'll be left with a new high level ability meta. That's their decision. Not every ability is going to "melt enemies for muh power fantasy". If they only want a few abilities their grind will actually be much less. Some people are probably completely done with whatever they wanted to get. So I guess for them the grind wasnt so bad after all, was it?

Now, that would be fine.  What we got was not that.  MR 15 became MR 8.  If that's the bar, then it's stupid to require 30+ runs of a mission to get a common resource. They can farm between wait times, assuming for some reason they actually dont have any resources at all.....which is silly to assume. Most people will have resources, even at MR 8. Again, DE set this model up.  Arguing that it's somehow not the reality is like looking at ground beef, and claiming that it's actually filet mignon.  You're welcome to claim that, but I'm not paying filet prices for ground beef.  If you want filet prices I want a filet.

 

 

The railjack resources have not been announced.  They literally went live with the 29.2.0 release.  That's not a fix, and not communicating.

I'll have to re-read the OP, but I'm pretty sure they're lowering railjack resource requirements. 

 

Subsuming and the MR lock is set by the structure of rewards.  Rank is earned by subsumes and consuming resources.  That is to say feed the Helminth, drain the resources with subsuming, drain it by applying powers, or the base add of subsuming.  This means that once unlocked there's literally nothing stopping people from putting things in.  Your speculation and mine don't matter.  The thing that matters is they set costs, a MR requirement, and a reward system via ranking that was stupid.  None of this gives you a reason to claim this is for experienced players like you have.  You make that claim to justify pricing, which is backwards in the extreme.

I don't make the rules. If you have such a problem with the MR requirement, ask them to raise it. If you have a problem with the resource requirements, wait for them to gather more data and see if a change is needed. If no change is needed, then I guess you'll have to deal with it.

 

You seem to want to change the definition of words.  Funny that.  Grind is not a reward, and thus not fun by definition.  That isn't an opinion, that's a definition.  Let me make the argument you should have made.  "I can insert my own goals and rewards into the system, and thereby make the grind internally rewarding."  Unfortunately you seem incapable of making that argument, and want to redefine grind.

Let me answer that argument, as it's the only acceptable argument that doesn't devalue you and your time.  Internally developed goals, to spur your own rewards are great.  They do address grind, but that's really you fixing the game for the developers.  It's the developers forcing you to make fun where there is none.  While I cannot argue against you having fun, I can argue that requiring me to make a game fun is idiotic.  People have played WoW for years, without burning out. (lol! Sure...I've personally seen WoW ruin lives at the height of their popularity) They have raid bosses that might drop garbage loot,(your guild wars example says that doesn't respect their time and/or is RNG. Shouldn't every drop be useful by your standards? And people have left WoW over the years as well....you suddenly forgot all the bad stuff that happened in WoW now, huh?) people keep coming back because it's fun.  Warframe introduces bosses, and they're just a means to get one reward.  They do things like Eidolons, that are so buggy that sometimes you cannot engage with them. I have encountered only a few bugs in 200+ hydrocaps. Check your internet or hardware. Despite this people find fun in speed running bosses, or using only a fishing spear to kill bosses, or other challenges they set.  I don't play a game to make it fun, I play a game to have fun.  Grind is a developer trying to force engagement time, without giving me fun.

Once again, fun is subjective. 

 

You make some judgements about me...and it's not the first time.  You claim my play style doesn't have to be catered to, and ignore the mechanics I've cited which support the argument.  You claim that my statements about wanting power in a power fantasy is already happening, which is a completely derpy argument.  You then claim that somehow I'm arguing that DE needs to make me happy, while ignoring the regular statement that I have 100k+ cryotic so I don't really have a problem giving up 3k and the point is that it is not reasonable for people who will wander into this system in a few months.  You top all of this off with the argument that I want immediate satisfaction, despite previously stating the focus system is something I appreciate. You're the one that said you have subsumed multiple frames and are upset you can't subsume more fast enough. Do you not remember that or something? 

Can you get a better strawman?  It's getting old saying this again and again.  I have no problem working for a reward.  I have immense problems turning that work into a grind.  You want to redefine grind to mean literal hours of doing a mission as not grind, then there's nothing to discuss here.  You will accept anything DE does, so stop trying to talk.  This isn't a game with 30+ hour raid bosses, and it's not even a game with raids anymore.  Wanting to beat it into that is bizarre.

It's not being beat into 30 hour raid bosses or anything close...so...what're you talking about? There are people with plenty of subsumed abilities already and it hasn't even been a month. Like I said....no ones forcing anyone to rush the content. 

 

Let's talk about solutions. 

Lowest effort was to offer more resource, because they have a huge pool and simply slap some more in.  It's lowest effort because it require no thought to balance, only adds more way to get a resource players are complaining about the loudest. 

Minimum effort to show that DE is listening is to add options, and then balance.  This shows they realize the costs are high, and their initial promise of an iterative system is wrong.  They've taken a month to address just railjack.  That indicates that they don't care, and see things as fine.  That bodes poorly for this being an iterative and experimental system, because it's too resource and timer intensive.

Maximum effort is to set human resources to finding a balance, and reviewing the system.  Who defined that was reality.  A review like this costs manpower.  It takes time, and money.  If you don't get it, DE is a business.  They put in time to release a beta, and out came the initial costing.  The reward was engagement, and potentially money spent on resource boosters and or rush time.  The reward for reviewing and reworking the system is long term engagement, which is much harder to cost justify.

Like I said. They have reviewed and they have made changes. They may possibly make more. You're gonna have to sit tight and see. If nothing else changes, then you're gonna have to deal with it. DE isn't obligated to do exactly what you say and change things just because you want them to. 

DE is a company.  Are you looking for me to magically cite a name for who decided on the MR change?  That's stupid.  Literally all that can be cited is the post where it changed.  I can cite that their community manager did an interview, stating that it was ideal to lock this behind a MR 15 gate.  I can cite it introduced as such.  I can then cite a sudden change to things, including the MR gate and the power of certain abilities.  As an FYI, you can do this to.  Who actually made the decision?  It doesn't matter.  It's like you're trying to find someone to blame.  The truth is it doesn't matter.  DE as a whole released this.  It doesn't matter what individuals thought, because I only see the release.  Their release was MR 8 locked, so it needed to match that requirements with expectations.  If you want to construct a world where that isn't reality, that's fine.  It's useless because we live in this one, but go ahead.

See above. I'm already aware of what they said and that the MR requirement was changed. They are under no obligation to lower all resource requirements just because they let MR 8s use the Helminth. If the resources stay the same, you're gonna have to deal with that. So maybe try to live in the reality where you don't get everything you want. In reality you get told "No" sometimes. Are you gonna be ok with that? 

It really seems like you want to defend somebody here.  Can't tell if that's projection, or you have some skin in the game here.  Either way, it's stupid to want to cite issues and require a name associated with things.  It's not like knowing Feliz Cortez (a made up name) programmed airburst does anything to fixing it.  I can only say it's a bad ability, and ask DE to fix it.

 

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39 minutes ago, (XB1)Huggs93 said:

so basically no changes? just logged in saw the grab bag kinda thing and was like oh cool maybe its cheaper now... nope. 

15,000 copernics??? seriously?

400 Isos??? mind you i played railjackfor monthsevenafter everyone left it and i only had 3000

and 1000 fresnels even tho in all the time railjack has ever existed i have only ever had about 10,000 right now i have around 6000

and dont mistake me for a minute the railjack resources are hilariously expensive here.

and lets not forget the bile sack should probably be in the bile category.

Now granted I'm on xbox i cant feed helmintht the new stuff but for god sakes come on. here is at least what the railjack resources should be like

asterite 1000
gallos rods 50
Nullstones 50
Aucrux capacitors 10
Kesslers 5
Khomms 5
Bracoid 50
pustrels 1000
coperniocs 1000
Fresnels 100
Isos 50

these are what they should probably look like to be more in tune with everything else and properly balanced that way at least railjack is also worth doing for things other than railjack.

Those changes are not live on console.

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8 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

it's over. cryotic wasn't reduced. 

it will never be reduced, ever ever. 

and also, even if its not reduced, its no longer needed for bile, in a sense.

 

since with the Railjack resource cost reduction and the addition of the 3 new options, I guess I'm all set to subsume the last 12 frames in my foundry

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1 hour ago, deyuaru said:

and also, even if its not reduced, its no longer needed for bile, in a sense.

 

since with the Railjack resource cost reduction and the addition of the 3 new options, I guess I'm all set to subsume the last 12 frames in my foundry

Unfortunately this tends to be digital extremes' perspective on much of their game. Instead of recognizing that something should be fixed or balanced they just add something else to put you off the scent. It is piss poor game design that doesnt really make them look like professionals.

The people making decisions for their team have a pretty loose understanding of how to balance marketable content with improving the actual quality of their product.

 

I mean... they have ''improved' the lighting effects quite a few times when no one was ever saying there was an issue with lighting. Instead of improving core gameplay elements and allowing more and more content islands to pop up.

I love the game but as time goes on it has become progressively more clear that digital extremes needs some real professional guidance.

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Really glad to see javlok capacitors and nav coordinates added to the bile pool. Easy to farm passively and otherwise not of much use. Now if only we could feed it Oberon component blueprints! I just got the grab bag, but couldn't read what it was for since the text was glitched. Thanks for the goodies!

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It should be telling how insane railjack resource costs for Helminth were previously that even with these new costs I STILL don't intend to feed railjack resources to Helminth. But at least they are fair for those who play railjack a decent amount now, so a welcome change, and fair enough-ish balance. It bothers me that it took you a month to fix something so obvious (you're changing the costs from x2 to x5 times to make them fair-ish, we're not talking 10% changes or so - should have been pretty obvious how insane they were), but better late than never.

Honestly, pretty surprised you decided to add extra resources that can be donated in the bile category, because that's the actual good way to balance it (though you should really look into resources like cryotic, which are still dumb high for the time investment to get them). And while DE is known for pushing the game in new amazing directions and being unafraid to experiment which is amazing, they're also known for being absolutely clueless about balancing and finding the worst ways to do it. So actually surprised you went and fixed the actual issue (partially - cryotic and a few outlier resources are still there, but that's a separate issue). So good work on that at least! I assume it was an accident on your part, but if I would see more reasonable, thought-out and simply smart balance choices like these I think Warframe could become a much more amazing game than it currently is.

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On 2020-09-24 at 4:58 AM, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Hm, no they shouldn't. It's their fault for not making one.

Why would they just piggy back forever instead of building their own. You can only access railjack early so that newish players understand how it works that way when they get their railjack and know what they're doing and also have weapon blueprints, avionics and the resources to give themselves a boost to their start

But that doesnt mean they didnt spend railjack resources on it. 

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The railjack resource costs are still insane. They still need fixing, despite the patch.

The Cryotic cost is also insane and needs fixing.

Please try playing your own game sometime.

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8 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

The railjack resource costs are still insane. They still need fixing, despite the patch.

The Cryotic cost is also insane and needs fixing.

Please try playing your own game sometime.

it's over, the vedict dropped - no cheapening

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On 2020-09-30 at 12:15 AM, Leqesai said:

Unfortunately this tends to be digital extremes' perspective on much of their game. Instead of recognizing that something should be fixed or balanced they just add something else to put you off the scent. It is piss poor game design that doesnt really make them look like professionals.

The people making decisions for their team have a pretty loose understanding of how to balance marketable content with improving the actual quality of their product.

 

I mean... they have ''improved' the lighting effects quite a few times when no one was ever saying there was an issue with lighting. Instead of improving core gameplay elements and allowing more and more content islands to pop up.

I love the game but as time goes on it has become progressively more clear that digital extremes needs some real professional guidance.

 

You know, this really gets my goat.  I'm not disagreeing here, but it's the value present in one table that needs to be altered.  Change a 3000 to maybe 1500, and we're off to the races.

 

Why 1500?  Why not 200, 600, or anything else?  Well, 100 seconds per excavator.  15*100 = 1500 seconds = 25 minutes.  Assuming some down time, that's about half an hour to get a "batch."  This is in-line with other resources, like ferrite, salvage, and even argon crystals.  If we're infusing a frame per day, and each costs about 210 resources (204 minimum, 240 maximum, 212 average) that's 7 items being fed into the system.  7*30 = 3 hours 30 minutes, which is a bit much per day but can be minimized with some overlap.

As an aside, boosters.  They can literally halve the times here, making the search for 3 argon crystals literally be one drop.  I support this in practice, but only to make a reasonable grind trivial.  It's pretty nuts structure this so the grind is reasonable with a booster, and punitive without.  This is not a Korean MMO, and judging it against those grind standards to say everything is acceptable is unreasonable.

 

Now, instead of trying the basic math, DE decides to simply stuff more options in....which may be of questionable value.  Nav coordinates are a void drop...so they're not greatly consistent on drops given their low count.  At the same time ferrite, argon, nav coordinates, rubedo, and control modules all drop in the void.  This gives us two resources dropping from the void that feed a single resource type, and three other resource types with a single source.  

 

Regarding the stupid supposition that resource location somehow is linked to its type, just no.  Cryotic is present everywhere except Deimos.  Plastids drop independent of the presence of the juggernaut, and nearly without overlap for Trachons.  Deimos has many of the Pheremones, but Pustulite and Ganglions are exclusive to Deimos and in the biotics with 14 plants that spawn on a single planet and 2 which spawn on a single tileset.  As such, there's no ground in asserting that "stuff is organized by rough drop locations."

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I agree that band-aid fixes are what we're getting.  Slapping a few more resources into a spreadsheet list is easier than balancing out average drop data and formulating a reasonably balanced requirement from already present data.  Likewise, fixing basic bugs is too much.  Side note, does anyone else get 60% Calx from Lucent Teroglobes?  Yeah, one resource providing double is either a bug or indications of some underlying magic.  I haven't commented anywhere else for fear of getting a fix for "unintended exploitation."

The positive is that this is a system that was DOA.  They've effectively cut themselves out of improvement by anything but a rebalance, so on the fly changes are impossible.  New powers will require some introduction method, and they didn't do the reasonable thing and introduce a new dojo lab for it.  There's no benefit to iterative testing, as its costing is too high.  Moreover, the huge timers have made this trivial to ignore as just another daily input.  With that structure, it's not a real investment.  All of this points toward another legacy system which will largely be forgotten about unless something happens to make it good.  At which point the nerf hammer comes out.  

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On 2020-09-23 at 2:43 PM, Casardis said:

Additions and changes are great. Thank you for considering the resources bags too!

Any plans to add Eidolon shards for Sentient resources? That's something that piles up without any use, very quickly.

Edit: Isn't Nav Coordinates a finite resource now that Deimos is a "linked" node? This addition will benefit longterm players who haven't sold all their navs yet, but NO ONE who plays after the Deimos update will be able to acquire them.

Perhaps more options from fish and mining? We have Free Roam plants included after all.

Edit 2: I was informed that Navs still drop, so disregard that part of my inquiries!

I like this thought with Eidolon shards and Sentient resources, but i don't know what you all think but maybe the Eidolon shards and sentient resources can be something applied to all helminth feeding categories. for example: if you feed 10x sentient cores or even 5x eidolon shards, that can be applied to all of the helminths categories. I hope it makes sense

what do u all think?

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