Helminth: Railjack Resources + Bile Changes.

[(PSN)thegarada]

For the bile this is better, but it is the same problem. I am still mostly only using  argon cuz every thing else is ridiculously over priced. Now it will be only argon and nav. There should be a correlation between the resource requirement and rarity. 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

For the bile this is better, but it is the same problem. I am still mostly only using  argon cuz every thing else is ridiculously over priced. Now it will be only argon and nav. There should be a correlation between the resource requirement and rarity. 

Or you could collect the other resources by playing Railjack and other game modes.

[CometFireClaw]

Missed opportunity to make BILE SACS  give you BILE

[KoroaWasTaken]

Why is Severed Bile Sac not in bile lol, it's literally a bile sac but it's in pheromones 😂

[-Augustus-]

3 hours ago, Shylo50 said:

Really a "too little, too late" moment, eh?

Par for the DE course, lately.

[deyuaru]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Or you could collect the other resources by playing Railjack and other game modes.

"other game modes", you might wanna check what those "other game modes" are.

[ToKeSia]

5 hours ago, Maelphaedor said:

The bile change is quite welcome. But... adding nav coordinates is kinda a punch in the gut after making them "worthless" to be sold off for credits, any of us that actually did that are kicking ourselves now, because many of us sold hundreds of thousands of them...

 

why u sold it ? it only worth of a few credits. I never sold anything in inventory for credit except Oberon Blueprint because i know someday it will become handy, althought it's useless it still good to keep than selling for credit because if u go farm index or profit taker u got a lot of million with more useful than selling in your inventory.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

I've got a metric ton of Antiserum fragments and Nav coordinates that are gathering dust in my inventory. So this is certainly a welcome change. Thanks for listening to our feedback!

[(XBOX)RakishLion84]

I'm looking forward to the proposed changes. Hopefully Empyrean resources are being reduced by about 75% across the board.

There are a few non-Empyrean resources that need to be reduced IMO. Mainly the following:

Oxides

- Oxium: 500 (750 at present)

Calx

- Iradite: 25 (50 at present)

Pheromones

- Mutagen Sample: 75 (125 at present. This was a difficult resource to farm prior to Deimos compared to Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples)

Bile

- Cryotic: 1,500 (3,000 at present. Unless you're deploying multiple Excavators simultaneously, it takes 30-45 min. to do 16 of them solo depending on frequency of Power Cell drops. Having to run mission twice [60-90 min.] for 30% Bile seems high)

- Diluted Thermia: 2-3 (5 at present. Takes 15-25 min. to fill Thermia Canister solo depending of ease of locating fractures. Spending [60-100 min.] for 30% Bile also seems high)

Sentient Appetite

- Intact Sentient Core: 50 (75 at present)

Proposed Changes:

Bile

- Antiserum Injector: 500 (900 proposed)

On 2020-09-23 at 3:03 PM, Memorii said:

On the other hand, can Orokin Ciphers be removed or also used with Helminth? Yeah, remember those shiny things you get from opening vaults on the Orokin Derelict  Deimos? They were useless except for the fact that you once needed 5 of them to make The Hidden Messages quest BP. But that got changed a while ago, back sometime in Update 22.0. Now Orokin Ciphers are completely, utterly useless; you can't even sell them or get rid of them in any way.

- Orokin Cipher: 5 (agree that this should be added to Bile category)

 

In addition, I think cooldown period for resources should be 18 hours instead of 24 so it takes a total of 36 hours to move resource through red > neutral > green cycle to ensure a resource is ready in advance of subsuming every other warframe. I think this pace would feel a little better prior to unlocking Sentient Appetite.

[Xepthrichros]

On 2020-09-24 at 2:33 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Nav Coordinates x 50

 

.... I welcome a use for Nav Coordinates. Definitely.

But in terms of theme/flavor... A bunch of digits representing where something is located... is a type of Bile.... alriiiiiiiiiiiiiighty then. 

[NullSaint]

2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

.... I welcome a use for Nav Coordinates. Definitely.

But in terms of theme/flavor... A bunch of digits representing where something is located... is a type of Bile.... alriiiiiiiiiiiiiighty then. 

I agree, but (as a fellow Vorthos Tenno) imagine that it's not really the digits or the information that produces bile, but rather the chips or circuits that holds them.

 

[Proscriptor]

17 hours ago, K-lero said:

I mean, there is BILE SAC that i think its on biotics, wouldn´t make more sense to have it in the BILE section?. Anyways, good news

why would it make sense?

  

15 hours ago, CometFireClaw said:

Missed opportunity to make BILE SACS  give you BILE

why is that a missed opportunity?

  

5 hours ago, (XB1)RakishLion84 said:

...

Bile

- Cryotic: 1,500 (3,000 at present. Unless you're deploying multiple Excavators simultaneously, it takes 30-45 min. to do 16 of them solo depending on frequency of Power Cell drops. Having to run mission twice [60-90 min.] for 30% Bile seems high)

...

what do you have to say to this?

24 minutes for 4500 cryotic

[(NSW)Shmena-Bot-v6]

I was hoping minerals would be an option for bile. I have a LOT of bapholite from trying to farm thaumica

[master_of_destiny]

So....antiserum injectors are interesting.  The things are dropped on a single node, and accumulate if you have bad luck in getting Nidus.  900 is a bit silly....but it's at least a start.

50 nav coordinates....I'm going to say that this will likely be my go-to Bile resource.  It's a garbage resource now that the only thing still requiring it is the Mesa farm.  Honestly though, it's better than the selling of these for a paltry sum of credits.

Javlok capacitors....I...I'm not sure what to say.  It's nice to have a second use for these things.  At the same time, what's the logic?

 

 

To the quick, here's the criticism I still have.  A Bile Sac isn't a source of Bile?  The criticism people are leveling about "the resources are from different areas" is stupid.  Plants are all over the solar system, the Deimos stuff and nano spores are interlinked, and it's not like there's any underlying logic elsewhere.

Maybe, just maybe we can get a real costing review.  For those incapable of the math, just to subsume we need:

1810 Oxides

1655 Calx

1566 Biotics

1117 Synthetics

1525 Pheremones

1647 Bile

 

I can blow through 77 (Roar), 72 (Terrify), 61 (Shock), 61 (Pull, 60 (Dispensary), 58 (Null Star), or 50 (Nourish) applying a single ability to a single frame.  That's literally going to require two infusions just to get back to the previous inventory, if not three.  This makes iteration of the powers completely impossible.  It's even more depressing with Larva (80 Calx) and Smite (80 Biotics).  These ability application costs are insane.

 

What about progression?  I think I've applied abilities less than a dozen times, and have full ranks.  I've got about a dozen more frames.  This is obviously not about the progression.  Besides that, there are 6 unlocks that matter.  Maybe it's time to review the actual structure of these things.

 

 

Let me take a stab at the fixes, and prioritize them.  

1. Make the proposed changes.
2. Give us actual costings for railjack resources.
3. Cut to cost on Cryotic and Antiserum injectors.  These missions are not rewarding enough to do as anything but a farm, and thus will burn people out.
4. Restructure the Helminth ranks.  Remove the stupid subsume limits.  In their place add the ability to feed sentient parts instead of the 10 slots.  Instead of the first rank give us access to build a dojo lab for the Helminth.  Instead of the 20 slots give us the ability to double our resource pool.  Instead of the rank 10 being unlimited subsume give us the ability to decrease helminth's hunger by 25%.  That is to day it will only take us 18 hours instead of 24 to go back up a full rank.

 

Why is the above a solution?  Well, the costing is simple.  The Helminth rank restructure is QoL.  The final rank allows us to feed it faster, and when combined with the increase to 200% makes iterative testing a possibility.  The access to a lab lets you expand the abilities in the future.  Of course it feeds back into having a dojo....giving this system some interconnect.  This is your continued engagement through clan research, and a potential future for cool powers that don't have to be frame bound.  Finally, the access to sentient feeding early is just QoL.  It's only a 12% increase at most....with a 30% cap.  That being unlocked immediately isn't a problem.  It's giving people just enough barrier to entry, so their first feeding isn't going to be painful.  Once that's done the sentient resources will be an expenditure for the impatient.  

 

Alternatively....continue on.  The Marked for Death nerf was goofy.  The other powers are largely applied only to level up.  The bread-and-butter abilities are costed insane, so it's just going to be an apply and forget.  None of this bodes well for a future, and you've already painted yourself into a corner regarding any future expansions.  It's not like suddenly adding another 5-10 ranks makes any sense, and there's no other established way to add power.

 

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

...

what do you have to say to this?

24 minutes for 4500 cryotic

What I have to say is that a resource booster doubles the quantity of cryotic.

If you had a resource booster, this is 4500/2/100 = 45/2 = 23 extractors where one of them did 50% before being destroyed.

 

If you then combine the resource booster with a Kavat, the potential is to have 400 per dig....that's a whopping 12 excavators....So I'm confident to say that you ran between 12 and 45 excavators.

 

Let's do the math.  24 minutes is 1440 seconds.  Each excavator is 100 seconds.  Assuming on average you could do excavators with a 50% overlap of time, that's half of 12*100 or half of 45*100.  

1200 seconds/1440 run seconds means you're running with about 240 seconds of down time....or 4 minutes.  That's possible with no overlap.

4500 seconds/1440 runs seconds is not possible without huge overlap.  We're talking 3 excavators running at once.  That's not possible.

If you ran a booster this is 2250 seconds / 1440 run seconds....and that's possible with substantial overlap (about 50%).

 

 

Conclusion: you ran at least a Kavat, and more likely you ran a resource booster.  If your qualification is that it's not a bad grind because you can purchase a booster....then it's a stupid conclusion.  Alternatively, if your point is that you can run Hydron or similar and get decent rewards it's only a bad one.  Your math quite easily indicates that you aren't using a vanilla setup....so I'm providing a ten ton grain of salt to your conclusion and anecdotal results.

 

[Proscriptor]

i don't think i had a kavat, but i did have a booster

conclusion: if one wants to have a smooth ride with the helminth, and is not a very experienced player who has a lot of cryotic, one needs to buy a booster

if you want to neither be a very experienced player who naturally accumulated a sizable stockpile of cryotic or use a booster, you are not deserving of the helminth

edit: about the evidence being anecdotal, it is not. my evidence posted above is universally applicable, meaning that everyone can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

edit - i also got primed loot (a lot of it!) because it was a fissure, so if anything, i can do a few runs like this to accumulate plat to buy a booster

[Hixlysss]

On 2020-09-23 at 3:07 PM, Exon617 said:

People are still complaining because the resource costs aren't in line with being MR 8 - they're more in line with an MR 15 system still.

This.

[Aldain]

On 2020-09-24 at 11:28 AM, (PS4)Deeceem said:

3000 Cryotic is still a bad joke. 30 excavators. 30. For a single feeding.

Don't forget the Sibear.

[master_of_destiny]

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i don't think i had a kavat, but i did have a booster

conclusion: if one wants to have a smooth ride with the helminth, and is not a very experienced player who has a lot of cryotic, one needs to buy a booster

if you want to neither be a very experienced player who naturally accumulated a sizable stockpile of cryotic or use a booster, you are not deserving of the helminth

edit: about the evidence being anecdotal, it is not. my evidence posted above is universally applicable, meaning that everyone can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

edit - i also got primed loot (a lot of it!) because it was a fissure, so if anything, i can do a few runs like this to accumulate plat to buy a booster

Anecdote:

a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person

-You posted a picture  of a run you did.  That is the definition of anecdotal evidence.-

 

On top of this, you both failed to cite the use of a booster and the fact that you were running a void fissure mission.

Let's chalk up the lack of information as a friendly oversight.  Fine.  Technically it's possible to get a functionally infinite amount of cryotic in any given mission given that there are certain tactics to face and adequately kill level 1000+ enemies.  

 

 

Now that we've poked a bit, let's talk realistically.  How often do you have a fissure mission that is an excavation?  How does anyone afford a booster (hint: somebody paid DE real money to skip grind, which you did so that you could grind in a different location)?  Finally, let's talk about the need to grind for at least 50 minutes.  You have cited 24 minutes, but that's ideal with spawns being good, no goofiness, and most importantly boosted.

Now....is it realistic to ask people to grind an hour a day for a single resource?  Well, not if the Helminth is meant to be iterative and played with.  Remember, that 3k is only 30%.  There are come infusions which will require 77%....and that's either a lot more infusions, or 3 days of wait to get 90%.  

 

If you missed it, I am a veteran.  I was happy with MR15 locking this off.  I then saw their economy, and knew this was more garbage.  Costs were about 100 total resources per infusion, there are scaling wait timers, and the entire thing is built around extreme grind or a resource sink for veterans.  None of this is ideal, none of it allows for creativity, and none of it is designed to reward players.  It's a one and done new frame meta, which will spur dozens of new "insane red crit" build videos, while offering nothing long term because there's no mechanism for expansion on top of the 40+ day forced wait.  That's why cryotic is an issue.  It's not the cost, it's the return on that cost being worse than the Sibear....and that's a weapon I sold immediately as mastery rank fodder.  

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Aldain:

Don't forget the Sibear.

Hm? I'm not. The Sibear equals ten Bile feedings and people said its Cryotic cost were a joke too. You build the Sibear usually once and you're done and it was released when Hierachon was at the height of its meta status. You feed bile a whole lot more than ten times, probably 100s of times if you actually want to experiment, potentially endlessly if you want to switch it up or adjust to new things as the game evolves. Helminth asks you to spend resources on it permanently and both serve(d) as a resource sink. My argument is that 3000 Cryotic is too much to be a valid option efficiency-wise for a permanent resource spending system, that arguably the appetite mechanic hinders it as well and that it is a missed opportunity not to adjust resource costs to boost the popularity of less played modes and areas of the game in my opinion and how I currently see my Helminth usage drop to 0 aside from the daily frame subsuming.

If you'd want to get really funky you could update the costs daily or weekly based on where the most respectively least player activity was to direct players to what was less popular if they choose to go there to keep the Helminth farm "meta" fresh so people don't farm Thermal Sludge with Xaku or Limbo everytime for bile. It would be the opposite of the appetite mechanic because you'd go farm or spend something easier because it's a temporary "good deal" if it suddenly was only 400 Cryotic for a week unlike the appetite mechanic which encourages you to wait for cooldowns because you don't want the "bad deal" of 3000 Cryotic. You could farm in advance for the "good deal" week etc. I'm not expecting this to actually happen of course. Just a random brainfart I just had to showcase the potential this system actually has to influence the game in a, I guess, more positive way. 

(I wasn't quite sure what your response meant so I just went on to expand a bit more on what I said earier because I know it doesn't matter what I say anyways.

I go eat some ice cream now.

I don't have ice cream.)

[Disgruntlefairy]

So when does this change take effect?

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Hm? I'm not. The Sibear equals ten Bile feedings and people said its Cryotic cost were a joke too.

I'm aware, I just wanted to mention it to further beat the dead horse that is the Sibear.

I really wish they would fix Excavation Fissures, I'd have much more Cryotic if I could also crack relics at the same time without having to take 5+ minutes when the game decides it doesn't want to charge the enemies.

[Lady_Khaos]

How is the resource that literally has "Bile" in its name NOT AN OPTION FOR THE BILE CATEGORY???

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

I'm aware, I just wanted to mention it to further beat the dead horse that is the Sibear.

I really wish they would fix Excavation Fissures, I'd have much more Cryotic if I could also crack relics at the same time without having to take 5+ minutes when the game decides it doesn't want to charge the enemies.

Ah, I wasn't trying to imply you werent aware. As i said, I just expanded a bit more. Yeah, it'd be nice if the whole "having to intentionally play worse than you can to get 10 reactants before the rotation ends" thing wasn't a thing. It applies to defense and interception as well in my experience. 

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Khaos_Zand3r:

How is the resource that literally has "Bile" in its name NOT AN OPTION FOR THE BILE CATEGORY???

Space magic.

[Aldain]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Yeah, it'd be nice if the whole "having to intentionally play worse than you can to get 10 reactants before the rotation ends" thing wasn't a thing. It applies to defense and interception as well in my experience. 

At least Defense and Interception are pretty easy to nuke once you have the 10, Excavation requires slotting in batteries and waiting for the enemies that drop them.

Honestly Disruption is king when it comes to relics, you get constant C rotations and cracking a relic is easy to wait on and complete due to enemy density.

...At least they fixed the Extractor health/shields a while back, having 1k health Extractors on say Pluto was a nightmare because they died to a stiff breeze.