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Helminth: Railjack Resources + Bile Changes.


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26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

At least Defense and Interception are pretty easy to nuke once you have the 10, Excavation requires slotting in batteries and waiting for the enemies that drop them.

Honestly Disruption is king when it comes to relics, you get constant C rotations and cracking a relic is easy to wait on and complete due to enemy density.

...At least they fixed the Extractor health/shields a while back, having 1k health Extractors on say Pluto was a nightmare because they died to a stiff breeze.

I always wait for disruption fissures, which is why i have long forgo excavations. (2K+ cryotics at the moment, thanks to helminth)

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7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Anecdote:

a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person

-You posted a picture  of a run you did.  That is the definition of anecdotal evidence.-

 

On top of this, you both failed to cite the use of a booster and the fact that you were running a void fissure mission.

Let's chalk up the lack of information as a friendly oversight.  Fine.  Technically it's possible to get a functionally infinite amount of cryotic in any given mission given that there are certain tactics to face and adequately kill level 1000+ enemies.  

 

 

Now that we've poked a bit, let's talk realistically.  How often do you have a fissure mission that is an excavation?  How does anyone afford a booster (hint: somebody paid DE real money to skip grind, which you did so that you could grind in a different location)?  Finally, let's talk about the need to grind for at least 50 minutes.  You have cited 24 minutes, but that's ideal with spawns being good, no goofiness, and most importantly boosted.

Now....is it realistic to ask people to grind an hour a day for a single resource?  Well, not if the Helminth is meant to be iterative and played with.  Remember, that 3k is only 30%.  There are come infusions which will require 77%....and that's either a lot more infusions, or 3 days of wait to get 90%.  

 

If you missed it, I am a veteran.  I was happy with MR15 locking this off.  I then saw their economy, and knew this was more garbage.  Costs were about 100 total resources per infusion, there are scaling wait timers, and the entire thing is built around extreme grind or a resource sink for veterans.  None of this is ideal, none of it allows for creativity, and none of it is designed to reward players.  It's a one and done new frame meta, which will spur dozens of new "insane red crit" build videos, while offering nothing long term because there's no mechanism for expansion on top of the 40+ day forced wait.  That's why cryotic is an issue.  It's not the cost, it's the return on that cost being worse than the Sibear....and that's a weapon I sold immediately as mastery rank fodder.  

that's not what anecdotal evidence means

I didn't "fail" to mention the boster because it isn't relevant

my evidence is universally applicable and irrefutably proves a truth about the game:

you can make 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

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On 2020-09-23 at 7:37 PM, kyori said:

So Bile is still a bunch of unpopular resources... without reducing the amount of those unpopular resources already in Bile? 

Nav coordinates are a redundant resource since the derelict got merged into Deimos. I'm happy with this, plus rj stuff costing less

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1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

that's not what anecdotal evidence means

I didn't "fail" to mention the boster because it isn't relevant

my evidence is universally applicable and irrefutably proves a truth about the game:

you can make 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal evidence

Definition of anecdotal evidence

: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them
//His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence.\
 
 
I hope at this point, with a link to what took me longer to type into google than to find it, that you now understand the definition of words.
 
Let me now explain a basic concept to you.  The excavation missions are listed as endless....which by the definition of words means that you can earn an infinite amount of cryotic.  You are bound to getting them in 100-200-400 unit quantities.  The first is base, the second is with a single boost (either by Kavat or booster), and the third assumes both booster and kavat buffs are active at the same time.
 
Let me be very simple here, it is 100% possible to earn 30k cryotic in a single run.  Buy booster, and you're going to need 150 excavators to complete without ever failing.  Likewise, it is entirely possible to do this on something like Hydron with a pair of defensive and pair of offensive frames working in tandem.  Theoretically two Limbos could keep a constant cataclysm rolling, while the two offensive frames shredded enemies to get pickup.  I've alternatively seen Limbo-Khora pairs decimate enemies with a small cataclysm and strangle dome.
 
 
The point here is that this is fundamentally stupid.  The argument was never that getting this resource was impossible.  It was that running a 50 minute mission daily, to get one resource, worth only 30% Bile at peak is terrifyingly stupid.  
 
Let's do a basic thought experiment.  I can run any high level void mission and collect argon crystals.  I get 1-2 per most runs, as well as rubedo and ferrite.  It's 20k ferrite for a feeding, 4k rubedo, and I'm swimming in these simply while waiting on the Argon Crystal drops.  Effectively, I can farm for 3 resources while speeding through levels, and have all three items fed in about 30 minutes without any booster.  Now, I can get just the 3k cryotic in about twice that time...
Not a good enough example?  Let's look at railjack.  I can feed the helminth everything from railjack.  So, it must be a great source of grind right?  Well, no again.  15k resources that drop as end of mission bonuses with 1500 or 1200 quantities is a joke.  Let me give you the ideal situation.  I do Rian Belt on earth solo.  It's 2 crewships and fighters.  Use tether to mass wipe the fighters, use forward artillery fully upgraded, and a run here is about 7 minutes.  If I'm lucky, the end of mission rewards will be the resource I want a little under 25% of the time (copernics, carbides, cubic diodes, pustules, komms, kesslers, fresnels, trachyons).  This means I need about 40 runs to get enough to cover maybe 4 of those resources.  40*7=280 minutes or 4.67 hours.  That means over an hour to grind per resource.
So maybe you get it.  Maybe not.  This isn't about people claiming that it can't be done in a single run.  It's about the fact that it's too time intensive for crappy rewards.  This is literally why without scaling rewards people stop doing missions.  There's no reason to do round 5 of a mission, when the rewards are A-A-B-C-A-A-....  It's better to simply restart.
 
 
 
Now, let's talk non anecdotal evidence.  It's what I provided.  The non-anecdote is that with a booster you need 15 excavators to get 3k cryotic.  It's that this will require a minimum of 1500 seconds to do, assuming no overlap.  It's that it's entirely possible with bad spawns for this to take 3000 or more seconds (50 minutes) without that booster.
You'll note that I don't have to state anything about you, me, or anyone else.  It's simplistic math.  It is then an anecdote if I tell you that I usually run Hydron to about 20-24 excavators because this is the point where I can't solo defend the excavators, and random groups vary in efficacy from completely useless lumps to newb trashing people with min-max builds.  That's my experience, and it means nothing.
 
Now, let's discuss fixes and quantification.  Why would I state that decreasing the cryotic requirement to 1500 was better?  Why would I even state that knowing I've got more than 100k in my inventory?  It's because the grind for these resources has to be reasonable.  If it takes me speed bombing 2 void runs for argon, but 5 hours to get copernics, then there's no reason to spend copernics.  Likewise, if I get less than 10 fresnels, but need 1k to do a feeding then it's entirely idiotic to spend them.
If it isn't abundantly clear I want the grind for this stuff to be reasonable for someone still rising in mastery rank to do.  I don't really care about me today....because I have enough resources to not give a crap.  What I'm looking at is player engagement, and having a system that isn't providing a single optimized answer.  By making these resources so utterly out of whack on grind, it's impossible to justify using them.  Heck, it took two years of Nightwave before we got the botany mod so that we don't have to manually scan plants for making the apothics we require, an the event required was needing plants for the Helminth.
 
Let's say you think everything is fine.  Good for you.  Let me put this into my perspective.  I've got literally everything in railjack maxed.  Done with intrinsics, 2 of each weapon maxed (for primary and side turrets), one of each tier 3 reactor maxed, along with engines and shields, and every single avionic maxed with the exception of the rarer sentient one (because sub 1% drop chances meant a month of grinding didn't produce one).  I have hundreds of thousands of Dirac extra, that literally cannot be spent.  None of this is a brag, it's to frame appropriately that I could infuse trachyons and fresnels once before my inventory runs out.  500k of copernics, cubic diodes, pustutlites, and carbides.  Despite this I have 10 asterite infusions, and about 20 nullstone infusions.  If you can literally be done with content, have no rewards left to earn, but not have the resources this "for experienced players" game mode requires then something is terribly wrong.
I sympathize with new players because as of right now you need 180k cryotic to get everything (according to the wiki).  That's 1800 excavators.  If that's 100 seconds each.  That's 3000 minutes, or 50 hours of grinding a single game mode.  Now tack on just 10 infusions of cryotic, representing at most 300% Bile.  At worst it's 69% Bile (30+15+24).  Tack on another 30000 seconds, or 8.33 hours assuming no down time (likely closer to 9 hours).  That's silly.  As such, it's stupid to spend the resources.  If it's stupid to spend the resources you cannot iterate.  If iteration is impossible then there's no creativity.  If there's no creativity then you might as well kill this system, as it's just going to be another min-max meta until you decided to nerf things based upon outcome, an once everything is garbage you have no return on investment.
 
 
This isn't about veterans being happy.  It's not about new players complaining about not getting access to everything immediately.  It's about players who have seen this song and dance before, and want off the merry-go-round.  DE introduces something, nerfs it into the ground, and it's forgotten about because nothing in this game can push the imaginary line of power creep.  This is said while we look at Primary Kitguns...and compare to secondaries...and discover that to prevent another catchmoon situation all of the primaries are underwhelming to garbage.  The only grace is rattleguts being average and the charged shot of tombfinger being capable of modification to be a fast firing AoE splash weapon.  This isn't a tangent.  90% of powers in Helminth are meh, 5% and average, and 5% are good.  This means that those 5% good will likely provide 80% of all infusions....indicating that the system is broken.  It isn't a choice when the options are all indistinguishable from what you already have, and the current cost structure makes it idiotic to do anything but meta builds with the nutty resource costing.  That's costing to feed, subsume, and to apply abilities to frame.
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22 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

 

what do you have to say to this?

CSTYqUsm_o.png

24 minutes for 4500 cryotic

Hello again.

I see you're still defending Bile secretions along with Cryotic in the Helminth system.

I decided to respond to this image with some of the other Bile options and how much easier it is to obtain them for the same amount of Bile. Everything is under 5 minutes with a resource booster and no smeeta.

201815CC836EC4CBCF5A0CE9B618DD35394A7FDA

Here I almost have 2 feedings of Bile with Thermal Sludge. I got enough spores for a different secretion just by accident. All I did was fly around with Itzal and break crates.

5D15F8F5397C8EA8B31F863E53507CA3E9DAF411

Here is 2 feedings of Bile with Argon crytal. I used limbo to break some crates in a void capture.

C4F562ECE9E5397BF224DCCE1FADCC8593F248AA

Here's a 2 minute Exterminate on Mars. Unfortunately I need 40 Morphics for 1 feeding, but I could achieve that easily in under 10-15 minutes.

 

Cryotic is comparatively bad to these other options. I'm sure its obvious that I used much less effort and time collecting resources for the same amount of Bile.

Bile needed to be changed along with Railjack resource costs. Not everyone has hundreds of thousands of Cryotic laying around, and 3,000 is just a bad trade for 30% Bile.

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Glad these changes will be made, but am still irritated by the fact that it feels like no play testing was done.  Many of the issues could have been spotted quickly and changed before launching the content.  The persistent nerf mentality is still horrible and after the last devstream I watched it feels like the community is completely disregarded and that listening to your playerbase is more a thing of the past.  Someone either needs to play this game and be listened to within the studio or run more play tests because this stream of ill thought out and poorly executed content has become common.  Again, thank you for the changes, but more improvements are needed overall.

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Well it's about time, I do however think you need to drop the amount needed of every bile resource there is currently by a large amount as well as make it so every single ability that's worth using, as well as subsuming frames, doesn't cost bile as often. It's extremely rare that something I want to do doesn't cost some bile. This is a great step, but it does nothing to solve the root problem in the long run. 

I'm a MR29 player, that has over 1k log-ins and 6k hours in game, and have never been without every booster running since 2017 when I started playing because I buy the top tier of every Prime Access which gives me 2/4 of them anyhow, so using some of that 4k plat to buy the resource boosters makes my grind more enjoyable. And as of this week I'm officially incapable of feeding Bile without going to farm stuff. That's my current life, so I can't imagine what people who played far less are going through.  If I could see used resources in Helminth the way I can see stuff donated to Dojo I'd likely get sick from the amount of Morphics and Thermal Sludge I fed over and over even though it was in the red because I had no other options and wanted to use the system I grinded a hundred hours or whatever in Deimos to get. 

So please:

  • * Lower number of abilities/subsumes that require Bile
  • * Lower the ask of existing Bile feedings (30 excavators for a bite?)
  • * Refund players stuff from here, not RJ. Because this stuff will actually help us continue to use it, whereas RJ is just another abandoned game mode if you have all 10's, Pennant, Quellor... especially since you still never put another way to get Umbral Forma back into the game, (hoping we'll forget that there's no reason, with systems like Helminth, that we can't get Umbral Forma easily; making our forma expense and time expense further exaggerated in order to use Umbral Mods on frames instead of letting us buy 1 Umbral Forma for 100p or something)

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you're making the changes but it's just so late. Those of use who unlocked it very fast said right away Bile was atrocious. There's no way someone didn't see this sooner, you just wanted us to drain our resources first. And I don't get why you're changing DE. There's always something 800p added now each quarter, way more things you can buy to make grind "easier" (think Son and the need for his tokens being far too excessive in every way, still, and the fact you can buy some with plat), way more time sinking and pointless grind- it's making people like me, loyal people that spend money to support you habitually, rethink their actions. AKA- I've played less the last 2 weeks than I have in a long time, making the prospect of quitting much easier. 

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On 2020-09-23 at 9:07 PM, Exon617 said:

People are still complaining because the resource costs aren't in line with being MR 8 - they're more in line with an MR 15 system still.

And they should be.

The resources should also be adapted for the midpoint of the intended player group, not for the absolute minimum MR requirement. And the median between 15 and 29 is actually 22.

Making everything cheap and easy will not make Warframe a better game. And in my experience players wanting everything to be easier and cheaper will never be satisfied anyway.

Edited by Graavarg
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10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal evidence

Definition of anecdotal evidence

: evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them
//His conclusions are not supported by data; they are based only on anecdotal evidence.\
...

no, my evidence isn't anectodal evidence

it's like saying pictures of astronauts on the moon are anectodal evidence

what i've shown is evidence of something universal (not something individual) - that everyone can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

The truth: you can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

i can, everyone can

there is nothing you can do about this truth

- - -

@Deminisis

yes it's worse than some feeding options, i agree

to that i say - so what?

if there are better options in the given moment feed helminth those things.

Edited by Traubenzuckr
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39 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

 

@Deminisis

yes it's worse than some feeding options, i agree

to that i say - so what?

if there are better options in the given moment feed helminth those things.

Its simple. You're clearly undervaluing Cryotic.

I'm going to guess that you spent dozens of hours doing Heiracon, Pluto back in the day. It was the place to get axi relics back then. I got over 300k cryotic myself and most of it was from Heiracon.

If you were in the shoes of the MR 8s to probably MR 15 you'd be busy using cryotic for crafting. The majority of the player base is not sitting on 300k cryotic. There is a lot of people that don't have what you have.

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54 minutes ago, Deminisis said:

...

There is a lot of people that don't have what you have.

 

whoever doesn't have surplus resources to use helminth as a resource sink isn't a candidate for higher levels of helminth usage (subsuming every frame, infusing all the abilities you want, and the subsequent experimentation)

to have a real latitude with the helminth you are meant to be a player with a lot of resources like you or me, including, naturally, cryotic

if that doesn't describe all players, fine, that's excellent, it shouldn't

these players have something to work up to, god bless 'em

edit: however if they want to farm cryotic they can do it fairly comfortably at a rate of 4.5k/24min while being awarded a lot of primed loot for the effort

Edited by Traubenzuckr
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13 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

 

whoever doesn't have surplus resources to use helminth as a resource sink isn't a candidate for higher levels of helminth usage (subsuming every frame, infusing all the abilities you want, and the subsequent experimentation)

to have a real latitude with the helminth you are meant to be a player with a lot of resources like you or me, including, naturally, cryotic

if that doesn't describe all players, fine, that's excellent, it shouldn't

these players have something to work up to, god bless 'em

edit: however if they want to farm cryotic they can do it fairly comfortably at a rate of 4.5k/24min while being awarded a lot of primed loot for the effort

So right now you want us to conform to your sick logic.... Nice, just great.... 

 

So you're telling that a MR29 isn't a candidate for higher level of helminth usage... 

 

You might want to sign up for elementary mathematics class. 

 

P. S: not everyone enjoys excavation, and there are other ways to crack relics. 

Edited by deyuaru
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3 hours ago, deyuaru said:

P. S: not everyone enjoys excavation, and there are other ways to crack relics. 

that's fine, if you only stick to one thing, you won't have a diversified stockpile of resources

if you don't have a varied stockpile of resources, you're not a candidate for higher level of helminth usage

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4 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

that's fine, if you only stick to one thing, you won't have a diversified stockpile of resources

if you don't have a varied stockpile of resources, you're not a candidate for higher level of helminth usage

That means you are unaware of the "Island" concept. 

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So, I'm not sure how anyone else is fairing here....but this is quite a crappy system.  I'm coming at this from a point of game stability currently.  Let's look at the fun this week has brought.

  1. If I access the Helminth there's about a 1 in 3 chance that I'll have to reboot the game.  Things stop loading in the forge, the star chart, and other area.  This leads to a forced reset.
  2. In 2 of 3 examples this week starting a subsume requires a restart of the game.  You confirm the subsume, no sound plays (we'll get there), and the frame is pasted to the wall.  The screen for the loadouts appears....and loads forever.  Chat is still going off in the bottom left corner....but I can't do anything.  
  3. The sounds are broken.  This is about 1 in 4 odds.  Enter the chair to silence, but the closed captioning box reads that it's talking to me.  Subsume frame, not voice but a caption box.  Get out of the chair, it's silence but the captions read that it is whispering to me.  Fantastic.

 

Speaking of game breaking, let's talk about the planning here.  23 hours to subsume....means a 40+ day grind to get access to powers.  Fine.  I crafted all of the frames, and they've been chilling for two months in the foundry waiting to be snackrificed.  I've then got to claim them, and line them up to see what they cost to subsume.  Why?  Well, if you subsume a frame using the same resources in a row sometimes you're out of luck.  That is my materials refresh on a 24 hour timer, so I can either feed a different frame of be forced to lose out on feeding resources at least twice.  One time to feed at 15%, sentient resources, another feed at 15%, and more sentient resources to reset the 24 hour reset timer.  Exactly who decided to have a 24 and 23 hour resource timer competing here?

 

Finally, let's discuss costing.  I'm not going to make a grand argument here.  Let me make the simple one.  Railjack is badly costed period.  Your other real problem is that there are quite a few resources with some strongly nutty costings.  Let me elaborate.  Iridite is 50, and so are Teroglobes.  I have twice the Teroglobes, despite Deimos being less than two months from release.  Cryotic requires 30 excavators for a single infusion.  125 mutagen samples is a terrifying joke when they drop singularly.  Likewise, a rare drop from a single node means somatic fibers are not fun to harvest.  

Why is al of this a problem?  Well, let's talk communication.  When this system was billed as for experienced players, I was assuming some pain.  That would be paid off with the ability to rebalance some frames...and more importantly DE would get feedback on powers that sucked and fix them.  I main Zephyr...and even after her single rework the airburst power was bad.  Great.  Then all of the other crazy came out.  The ability choice included powerful stuff, that then ate a nerf.  A few abilities got buffed...but the buffs made them less garbage but not good.  The MR requirement was decreased, but the thing was locked behind a syndicate reputation wall, and a crafting wait timer.  Oof.  Then after all of this we get to start seeing the system in action...and it's disappointing. 

The cost of applying powers is high.  Like one a day high, because there's 40+ days of subsuming just to get access to powers.  But subsuming unlocks ranks.  Unfortunately 4/10 ranks are simply allowing you to subsume more.  OK.  That's depressing, but the abilities are compelling, right?  Well no.  One of them increases ammo efficiency...and the new content will introduce mods that make it worth looking into.  That's causing a problem and selling the solution.  The others are mediocre and situational...except this marked for death thing.  It's insanely powerful because the scaling is broken.  We'll see that mechanical issue, and instead of rectifying we'll rectify and nerf....until the community collectively loses their crap because of the knee-jerk action of making this ability useless instead of just fixing and rebalancing after we see the results.  That means there's literally no hope of getting powers that are great...because this is all based upon not shifting any balance.

So the system is dead on arrival.  It can't offer real power.  It has to be costed reasonably.  On top of all of this it's not targeting experienced players, but functionally everyone that isn't new.  That's the difference between 10% of MR content done and 30%.  Once you combine this with a litany of bugs, returns of old bugs, and everything else I'd gladly forego the Helminth system to have the stability of May 2020 back.  Losing the Vulpaphyla pets would be sad, but that's about the only thing that doesn't seem to be alpha level content.  Alpha content in a game that sells itself as an almost decade long beta.

 

 

16 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

no, my evidence isn't anectodal evidence

it's like saying pictures of astronauts on the moon are anectodal evidence

what i've shown is evidence of something universal (not something individual) - that everyone can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

The truth: you can farm 4.5k cryotic in 24 minutes

i can, everyone can

there is nothing you can do about this truth

- - -

@Deminisis

yes it's worse than some feeding options, i agree

to that i say - so what?

if there are better options in the given moment feed helminth those things.

OK....I don't think you get it.  Let me put this into terms that you can understand....hopefully.

 

Anecdotal evidence is not proof of a thing.  It's one person's experience with a thing.  There is nobody saying that getting 6000+ cryotic is impossible, and the fact that you are creating this strawman argument is insane.  You first have to change the definition of endless missions to finite ones, then change the rewards structure from 100 to 200 per dig, and all of this is not serving the main argument.  

 

What is the actual argument?  Well, it's that the 3k cost is too high.  It's that, without a booster, it's about an hour of farming to complete one daily infusion of cryotic.  That's the argument.  

 

What is your retort?  It's that assuming you spend real world money, to double the drop rate of items, it's only half an hour to earn a single infusion worth of the resource.  That's a stupid argument at its core, when supported with a single anecdotal picture of a single run, without ever providing that you had a resource booster.

 

What should be provided as non-anecdotal evidence?  Well, each excavator runs 100 seconds.  You need 30 excavators, which means 3000 seconds.  That's actually 50 minutes, because 3000/60=50.  Fantastic.  Now all you have to do is say that excavators can be running in parallel, and boosted it will take half that time.

Your opposition responds with the fact that 100 seconds is ideal, and assumes good spawning of energy carriers.  They also point out that only 2 can be running at once, with some dead air in-between.  As such, 50 minutes is largely an ideal situation.  It can theoretically be done in less time.

Your retort is to show a run worth 4500 in 24 minutes.  The response is that this is 22.5 excavators, that's a rate less than 1 every 60 seconds.  Even if I give you 1 excavator every 60 seconds this means it'll be half an hour every day just earning the infusion of cryotic....and that's giving you an insane amount of opportunity given that there have been competing anecdotal instances where I've spent 200+ seconds on a single excavator because spawns are screwed up.

 

In the event that you missed it, my anecdotal evidence is just as valid as yours.  The reason that anecdotal evidence is not generally as useful is that if it is built on an underlying system of RNG a single run doesn't represent reality.  

Still don't get it?  Well, mathematically I will win the lottery in less instances than I will be alive.  If it's 64 numbers and 30 numbers my chances of winning are (5*4*3*2*1*1)/(64*63*62*61*60*30).  Anecdotally somebody wins the lottery.  You see how using anecdotal evidence is pointless?  Maybe it's time to back off on making the point, and really listen to what other people are saying....and maybe explain that you've made some bad assumptions (like having a resource booster).  Once all of that's accounted for, we can have a realistic discussion. 

As a hint, my version of this discussion would be that the 3k cost is too high.  My evidence is that without a booster it's a 50 minute grind.  I will then state flatly that this is 30% of a single resource under ideal circumstances.  The most common response to this is that this is a system for experienced players.  My retort is that argument died the second the MR was brought from 15 to 8. 

My following retort is that I have over 100k of cryotic, 660 of each open world resource requiring cryotic for refinement, and have all of the weapons built which use cryotic.  As such, there's no real reason to horde the stuff.  You then look at what requires cryotic...and pause.  4.8k for the Kulstar would be 48 excavators.  38 for the Knell.  20 for a variety of components.  38 for Elytron systems.  33 for Ack & Brunt.  As I look at this, I realize that I don't like that mission type, and running another few hours the next time things require it is not fun.  DE decided to make this for MR 8 players...and if that's the goal then an hour for a single infusion is stupid.

 

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9 minutes ago, deyuaru said:

That means you are unaware of the "Island" concept. 

say what you will, there is no indication cryotic cost will be lowered

i know people get emotional about cryotic because lacking a stockpile of a needed resource hurts their ego, but instead of the game being retailored to their petulant needs at the expense of all the other players who appreciate the system for what it is - a resource sink, these players will have to improve, grow and learn how to play excavation  

edit: actually, with the new additions to bile, of course they wouldn't even have to learn how to play excavation, the system will be more than forgiving

5 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

OK....I don't think you get it.  Let me put this into terms that you can understand....hopefully.

forgive me but your posts are incredibly long, i have to scroll a few screens to get past them, and you are sticking to semantics. now you're starting with the condescending shtick, so i'll put you on ignore for a while.

Edited by Traubenzuckr
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30 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

that's fine, if you only stick to one thing, you won't have a diversified stockpile of resources

if you don't have a varied stockpile of resources, you're not a candidate for higher level of helminth usage

Not having anymore "cryotic" due to helminth, does not mean "you're not a candidate for higher level of helminth usage"...

this logic is flawed. When most of those with MR20+ are having no issues with the other categories, except bile.

27 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

say what you will, there is no indication cryotic cost will be lowered

i know people get emotional about cryotic because lacking a stockpile of a needed resource hurts their ego, but instead of the game being retailored to their petulant needs at the expense of all the other players who appreciate the system for what it is - a resource sink, these players will have to improve, grow and learn how to play excavation  

edit: actually, with the new additions to bile, of course they wouldn't even have to learn how to play excavation, the system will be more than forgiving

forgive me but your posts are incredibly long, i have to scroll a few screens to get past them, and you are sticking to semantics. now you're starting with the condescending shtick, so i'll put you on ignore for a while.

And secondly, this isn't about ego, this is about getting the message across. you're not doing the math enough, and you probably don't value your own time that much.

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1 minute ago, deyuaru said:

...

this logic is flawed. When most of those with MR20+ are having no issues with the other categories, except bile.

bile is the hardest feeding category, so if players are going to have difficulty meeting the costs, they will experience the difficulty with regards to bile

yes, and?

where is the flawed logic? what are you even talking bout?

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20 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

bile is the hardest feeding category, so if players are going to have difficulty meeting the costs, they will experience the difficulty with regards to bile

yes, and?

where is the flawed logic? what are you even talking bout?

I'm talking about how you try to defend for failed gamemodes. hence "island"

 

please do not justify bad things, they are bad for a reason.
Bad = Not Fun and Not Rewarding. (Rotation Rewards were gutted for excavation in the past)

Edited by deyuaru
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6 hours ago, deyuaru said:

I'm talking about how you try to defend for failed gamemodes. hence "island"

 

please do not justify bad things, they are bad for a reason.
Bad = Not Fun and Not Rewarding. (Rotation Rewards were gutted for excavation in the past)

there's nothing bad about excavation, it's one of the best game modes, and one of the few that reward squad coordination. 

please don't call one of the basic game modes bad without good cause.

we are gleaning the truth of the core of the problem here:

anti-cryotic activists don't like excavation

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Something to consider might be increasing the secretion amount to be on par with the Deimos resources which would give the resources about 3 uses instead of 2 uses (at max appetite) before they are pretty much useless and would help with managing them a lot better since they don't need to be used as much even with high costs.

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9 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

there's nothing bad about excavation, it's one of the best game modes, and one of the few that reward squad coordination. 

please don't call one of the basic game modes bad without good cause.

we are gleaning the truth of the core of the problem here:

anti-cryotic activists don't like excavation

there is something called disruption, and is fun, rewarding, and GREATLY rewards squad coordination, more than "yawn-worthy" excavation does.

and unlike people who have all the time in the world to do mediocre stuff, we actually get "progression", like getting vanilla frames from planet bosses, or capturing animals in any of the open worlds.

----

just because the game mode itself is bad and probably needs some rework, it does mean that anyone who dislike it is "anti" towards it. don't force everyone onto your standards

Edited by deyuaru
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