Jump to content

Helminth: Railjack Resources + Bile Changes.


Recommended Posts

i don´t want to be impatient but any eta on hotfix? it´s almost 6 days ago

it´s way to expensive to experiment with the helminth system right now,
and it doesn´t make sense to invest ressources until the hotfix arrives,
i don´t want to subsume any warframe or infuse any ability that uses bile until i know how many ressources we get back
therefore you probably miss alot of feedback too

and i´m getting sick of ppl trying to convince us that the ratio is fine, omg...
no healthy human or non-human beeing farms bile at current time/ressource ratio...

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, linn4you said:

i don´t want to be impatient but any eta on hotfix? it´s almost 6 days ago

it´s way to expensive to experiment with the helminth system right now,
and it doesn´t make sense to invest ressources until the hotfix arrives,
i don´t want to subsume any warframe or infuse any ability that uses bile until i know how many ressources we get back
therefore you probably miss alot of feedback too

and i´m getting sick of ppl trying to convince us that the ratio is fine, omg...
no healthy human or non-human beeing farms bile at current time/ressource ratio...

the ratio is never fine, those who try to say its fine had failed to do the math.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 2 Minuten schrieb deyuaru:

the ratio is never fine, those who try to say its fine had failed to do the math.

yes, the problem is that farming these ressources, especially at this ratio, is the worst, boring, time waisting thing warframe has to offer...
and we already have alot to do and alot to farm right now

Link to post
Share on other sites

A good start, however the antiserum fragments are a problem. I'm sure these have already been said, but there is no reason for Antiserum Fragments cost being so high. If they were once used to play the Jordas Verdict trial mission, that is retired now. Then why is this item still a thing? That being said, since Antiserum Fragments are sellable, most people will sell them, leading them to have obviously less than 900. Players have no incentive to play the Infested Salvage mission type either, as it is only for farming Nidus. Like most people say here, most players don't get a lot of antiserum, myself included. I believe a temporary fix to remedy this is to lower the cost of antiserum fragments. I honestly have no idea why antiserum fragments are still in the game, unless they're saving it for something. I know that the Antiserum Injector is a craftable gear item from clan dojo, but no one will use that for what it does now: to refresh armor degrading in Infested Salvage.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-09-27 at 10:42 AM, master_of_destiny said:

Project much?

 

Let me be real simple.  You are being an idiot. 

You are given a dictionary definition, and want to fight about it. [anecdotal evidence]

You want to say that everything is fine...assuming that the drop rate is doubled.  By definition this is stupid, because it negates your point.

 

 

If you'd like something other than arguable idiocy, then let me call you elitist.  Elitist for a game mode that went from MR 15 to MR 8.  Coming from a person with 100k cryotic, it's idiotic to expect 50 minutes per run for an infusion.  You want to say this is acceptable because it's a veteran focused system.

AUTOMATIC SLOTTING AYATAN STARS IS LOCKED TO MR 10!

 

Yes, slotting stars is more of a veteran content option than the Helminth.  Make whatever argument you want, but DE moving from MR 15 to MR 8 is the issue.  Anything said against that is idiotic whenever you see that a single quality of life improvement requires greater MR to have access to.

No one said you're supposed to run Excavation solely for infusion in one go. 

Resources are acquired passively over time. You run a few here and there and it adds up. 

People are simply trying to rush the content and are upset they have to display patience. No one is obligated to let you guys rush the Helminth. It's not going anywhere, as it's not a timed event, not sure if you're aware.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, deyuaru said:

there is something called disruption, and is fun, rewarding, and GREATLY rewards squad coordination, more than "yawn-worthy" excavation does.

and unlike people who have all the time in the world to do mediocre stuff, we actually get "progression", like getting vanilla frames from planet bosses, or capturing animals in any of the open worlds.

----

just because the game mode itself is bad and probably needs some rework, it does mean that anyone who dislike it is "anti" towards it. don't force everyone onto your standards

i'll just go back to this post of mine where i so pithily express the core issue of most actual* bile protesters (which they are unable to reflect on themselves, but ok there's always a helping hand):

On 2020-09-27 at 4:19 PM, Traubenzuckr said:

that's fine, if you only stick to one thing, you won't have a diversified stockpile of resources

if you don't have a varied stockpile of resources, you're not a candidate for higher level of helminth usage

 

*by actual i mean someone who actually plays the game and has an authentic grievance be it justified or not, and not just someone who is regurgitating what they saw on youtube

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

No one said you're supposed to run Excavation solely for infusion in one go. 

Resources are acquired passively over time. You run a few here and there and it adds up. 

People are simply trying to rush the content and are upset they have to display patience. No one is obligated to let you guys rush the Helminth. It's not going anywhere, as it's not a timed event, not sure if you're aware.

1+1+1=3

2+1=3

3=3

What I have demonstrated is that no matter how you subdivide a thing, the same output is still required to have the same input.

 

Why does this matter?  Well, to the original poster it was acceptable to say that 24 minutes could yield 4500 cryotic with a booster.  This was held up as an example that "the grind was ok" to be 3000 cryotic per infusion.  That's patently stupid, because if the grind was alright they should really have earned 6k with that booster to represent the same time investment that would be required.  They did not.

Now, the second part of this was that anecdotal run evidence was provided.  A single good run is quite possible to be had, while disregarding the bad.  Again, this game can bug out in interesting ways.  My point here is that the rate of earnings on excavators is entirely dependent upon energy canister carrier spawns...and on some missions they will simply break.  This calls into question the ability to get an excavator every 60 seconds, when they require 100 seconds to complete, given their spawn and enemy spawn behaviors.

 

Now to your point.  Are you valuable?  I am assuming so.  I'm saying that your value is in excess of the hour that will most likely be required to get a single infusion of cryotic.  That hour number is assuming inefficiency, and no overlap, actually 50 minutes of excavators running.  

Likewise, I assume that you aren't willing to pay DE to fix their drop rates with a booster.  Functionally this is stupidity.  If you have to pay DE real money for a temporary boost to the rate of spawning virtual items it implies that they've made you want to not grind.  It is more viable to pay them money, than to play this game.  If you want to argue something else, then you first have to address why it's acceptable to pay them to get better drop rates, so you don't have to play the game.

Finally, let's say you only do 1500 seconds, or half an excavator set per day.  It's stupid, considering you need 1647 bile just to subsume, but we'll start here.  That's an infusion every other day.  Let's be really fair, and call it at 1/3rd of the bile you require comes from cryotic.  How many days will it take to earn your cryotic?

1647/3 = 549.   549/30 = 18.3.  You need 19 infusions.

19*2 = 38 days at half an hour per day. 

Of course the greatest subsume cost is actually 80% and there are 14 of these expenditures.  That would mean 6 days between them to get to 90%...which means that simply to subsume the frames you're going to actually be stretching things out and not be able to subsume one frame per day unless you heavily farm the other sources.  Of which there's railjack stuff (priced nutty), a timed event which might yield the 5 required drops in the same grind time as cryotic (thermia), rare resources (morphics), and the only resource in the game that disappears (argon crystals).  Literally the only good resource to feed is 50 thermal sludges, because it is a common drop from Fortuna.

 

 

 

If it isn't clear, none of this includes applying abilities to frames.  21 frame abilities require bile, up to 77%.  The Helminth abilities almost all require bile.  This means that if you want to start testing abilities and iterating, bile becomes another issue.  Can't afford to subsume and apply an ability...so using the system is out.  That is, unless you're willing to endure grinding.

So no, the argument that "you don't have to grind in one sitting" is not viable.  It's not viable because of the costing, and timers built into the system.  To bring this up assumes some happy medium on costing, or more than three reasonable resources to feed the Helminth.

Will the proposed fixes (by DE) help?  Well, somewhat.  Nav coordinates will make it much easier for veteran players, because they clog inventories.  Javlok capacitors will finally have a second use beyond building the Javlok.  Antiserum injector fragments are goofy, as they only drop in one node with one mission type, and the only reward there is Nidus.  That gives us 1-2 new alright or good sources of bile.  It doesn't fix the railjack costing (they have said it will be less, but no numbers means no proof), and it doesn't fix the cryotic.  If they gave us railjack costing, and a decrease on cryotic, I'd have nothing to discuss unless the railjack pricing was bogus.  

 

Unfortunately, DE is being DE.  They said they'd look into it, and our first useful bit of data is likely to be when it is implemented.  No usage of test clusters; we'll just push this turd out the door, and polish it later.  That's how we came to be in this situation, but no lessons were learned.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

1+1+1=3

2+1=3

3=3

What I have demonstrated is that no matter how you subdivide a thing, the same output is still required to have the same input.

 

Why does this matter?  Well, to the original poster it was acceptable to say that 24 minutes could yield 4500 cryotic with a booster.  This was held up as an example that "the grind was ok" to be 3000 cryotic per infusion.  That's patently stupid, because if the grind was alright they should really have earned 6k with that booster to represent the same time investment that would be required.  They did not.

Now, the second part of this was that anecdotal run evidence was provided.  A single good run is quite possible to be had, while disregarding the bad.  Again, this game can bug out in interesting ways.  My point here is that the rate of earnings on excavators is entirely dependent upon energy canister carrier spawns...and on some missions they will simply break.  This calls into question the ability to get an excavator every 60 seconds, when they require 100 seconds to complete, given their spawn and enemy spawn behaviors.

 

Now to your point.  Are you valuable?  I am assuming so.  I'm saying that your value is in excess of the hour that will most likely be required to get a single infusion of cryotic.  That hour number is assuming inefficiency, and no overlap, actually 50 minutes of excavators running.  

Likewise, I assume that you aren't willing to pay DE to fix their drop rates with a booster.  Functionally this is stupidity.  If you have to pay DE real money for a temporary boost to the rate of spawning virtual items it implies that they've made you want to not grind.  It is more viable to pay them money, than to play this game.  If you want to argue something else, then you first have to address why it's acceptable to pay them to get better drop rates, so you don't have to play the game.

Finally, let's say you only do 1500 seconds, or half an excavator set per day.  It's stupid, considering you need 1647 bile just to subsume, but we'll start here.  That's an infusion every other day.  Let's be really fair, and call it at 1/3rd of the bile you require comes from cryotic.  How many days will it take to earn your cryotic?

1647/3 = 549.   549/30 = 18.3.  You need 19 infusions.

19*2 = 38 days at half an hour per day. 

Of course the greatest subsume cost is actually 80% and there are 14 of these expenditures.  That would mean 6 days between them to get to 90%...which means that simply to subsume the frames going to actually be stretching things out and not be able to subsume one frame per day unless you heavily farm the other sources.  Of which there's railjack stuff (priced nutty), a timed event which might yield the 5 required drops in the same grind time as cryotic (thermia), rare resources (morphics), and the only resource in the game that disappears (argon crystals).  Literally the only good resource to feed is 50 thermal sludges, because it is a common drop from Fortuna.

 

 

 

If it isn't clear, none of this includes applying abilities to frames.  21 frame abilities require bile, up to 77%.  The Helminth abilities almost all require bile.  This means that if you want to start testing abilities and iterating, bile becomes another issue.  Can't afford to subsume and apply an ability...so using the system is out.  That is, unless you're willing to endure grinding.

So no, the argument that "you don't have to grind in one sitting" is not viable.  It's not viable because of the costing, and timers built into the system.  To bring this up assumes some happy medium on costing, or more than three reasonable resources to feed the Helminth.

Will the proposed fixes (by DE) help?  Well, somewhat.  Nav coordinates will make it much easier for veteran players, because they clog inventories.  Javlok capacitors will finally have a second use beyond building the Javlok.  Antiserum injector fragments are goofy, as they only drop in one node with one mission type, and the only reward there is Nidus.  That gives us 1-2 new alright or good sources of bile.  It doesn't fix the railjack costing (they have said it will be less, but no numbers means no proof), and it doesn't fix the cryotic.  If they gave us railjack costing, and a decrease on cryotic, I'd have nothing to discuss unless the railjack pricing was bogus.  

 

Unfortunately, DE is being DE.  They said they'd look into it, and our first useful bit of data is likely to be when it is implemented.  No usage of test clusters; we'll just push this turd out the door, and polish it later.  That's how we came to be in this situation, but no lessons were learned.

Sometimes I do an hour and a half, sometimes 30 minutes, and sometimes something in between. If you have to do a math equation to get a resource, you're clearly not ready to subsume a bunch of frames. Maybe make a goal for 1 frame to subsume and go from there. If you have to "endure grinding" you clearly need to take a break from the game or do "something" different if you consider even playing the game normally a form of torture. I farm passively by just playing the content and enjoying it. I did an hour in Steel Path Ophelia, not intentionally....but because I kinda forgot Gauss came out and wanted to try him out. I had fun simply playing the game without thinking about rewards even though I got what I wanted: polymer for energy pads to use for eidolons, I took a formad level 0 pistol with me to level passively and used my Primary weapon and melee as well as Gauss' kit.

I think some people are under the impression this is only some quick looter shooter when it clearly is not. It's a looter shooter with some substantial mmo elements. Online games aren't quick one-two play-for-2 weeks and you're all done kind of games. This content isn't just releasing some new weapon....they're letting you completely reroute the entire games mechanics. This is kind of a heavy system at work here with massive implications on current and future gameplay. This is by no means some quick "filler" content that you finish in a month and say "well that was fun, what else you guys got coming up?"

The content has been out approx 2 months and it's gonna be here awhile. You don't need to play "keep up" with everyone else and have 5 frames subsumed by next Sunday. There's no deadline here.

And for boosters, anyone that has played awhile can make plat without paying. This Helminth system isn't really for people that just started playing and just made MR 8. If they try to rush to the Helminth straight from the starchart they're gonna run into multiple problems.

I sold a couple R5 Vox Solaris arcanes and that was enough for 2 30 day boosters, no money from me required. I just enjoy the game normally and "Hey whaddya know.....I have a good handful of resources, let's see what I can do with this".

Also....The nidus farm is great for nano spore farming as well. You have to relax on the tunnel vision and realize you're usually getting more than one thing when you farm a mission. I actually never cared to use nidus, I farmed nidus passively because I actually wanted nano spores and nidus just happened to be a byproduct. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-09-24 at 2:55 AM, xRufus7x said:

 

It just seems high because it is the hardest to get. It appears as frequently as the others. There are 6 resources, three are used to subsume any particular frame and the other three to implant its ability and about half have bile for a subsuming and the other half for implanting. Same with every other resource.

i..see.
TIL.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

anyone that has played awhile

im going to point out that there are Veterans that almost never use Trade Chat (i know at least 5 that instead get every prime access and accessory only trading in clan and usually only trading rivens), and even fewer ever use things like WFmarket regularly enough. honestly i find that the chances of a player being trade capable being far more rare than those that only do it when absolutely necessary.

Edited by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MechaMew151 said:

A good start, however the antiserum fragments are a problem. I'm sure these have already been said, but there is no reason for Antiserum Fragments cost being so high. If they were once used to play the Jordas Verdict trial mission, that is retired now. Then why is this item still a thing? That being said, since Antiserum Fragments are sellable, most people will sell them, leading them to have obviously less than 900. Players have no incentive to play the Infested Salvage mission type either, as it is only for farming Nidus. Like most people say here, most players don't get a lot of antiserum, myself included. I believe a temporary fix to remedy this is to lower the cost of antiserum fragments. I honestly have no idea why antiserum fragments are still in the game, unless they're saving it for something. I know that the Antiserum Injector is a craftable gear item from clan dojo, but no one will use that for what it does now: to refresh armor degrading in Infested Salvage.

Eeeeeeh "only" for farming Nidus, one of the best subsume options there are. Did a good 5-6 hours of infested salvage yday myself and there was allways a full pub. People are running Infested Salvage atm, and i assume DE Noticed with the Antiserum Fragments ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Sometimes I do an hour and a half, sometimes 30 minutes, and sometimes something in between. If you have to do a math equation to get a resource, you're clearly not ready to subsume a bunch of frames. Maybe make a goal for 1 frame to subsume and go from there. If you have to "endure grinding" you clearly need to take a break from the game or do "something" different if you consider even playing the game normally a form of torture. I farm passively by just playing the content and enjoying it. I did an hour in Steel Path Ophelia, not intentionally....but because I kinda forgot Gauss came out and wanted to try him out. I had fun simply playing the game without thinking about rewards even though I got what I wanted: polymer for energy pads to use for eidolons, I took a formad level 0 pistol with me to level passively and used my Primary weapon and melee as well as Gauss' kit.

I think some people are under the impression this is only some quick looter shooter when it clearly is not. It's a looter shooter with some substantial mmo elements. Online games aren't quick one-two play-for-2 weeks and you're all done kind of games. This content isn't just releasing some new weapon....they're letting you completely reroute the entire games mechanics. This is kind of a heavy system at work here with massive implications on current and future gameplay. This is by no means some quick "filler" content that you finish in a month and say "well that was fun, what else you guys got coming up?"

The content has been out approx 2 months and it's gonna be here awhile. You don't need to play "keep up" with everyone else and have 5 frames subsumed by next Sunday. There's no deadline here.

And for boosters, anyone that has played awhile can make plat without paying. This Helminth system isn't really for people that just started playing and just made MR 8. If they try to rush to the Helminth straight from the starchart they're gonna run into multiple problems.

I sold a couple R5 Vox Solaris arcanes and that was enough for 2 30 day boosters, no money from me required. I just enjoy the game normally and "Hey whaddya know.....I have a good handful of resources, let's see what I can do with this".

Also....The nidus farm is great for nano spore farming as well. You have to relax on the tunnel vision and realize you're usually getting more than one thing when you farm a mission. I actually never cared to use nidus, I farmed nidus passively because I actually wanted nano spores and nidus just happened to be a byproduct. 

 

Stop.  Take a breath.  Look at what you are saying.

 

Now that we're here, let's talk about this.

1) The content hasn't been out two months.  If it was the subsuming would already be done.  There are 40 something frames.  There was about 72 hours of wait.  I have about 12 frames remaining, thus this content had been out for a single month.  Simplistic math here.

 

2) Nano spore farming is a joke, right?  In any two runs of a variety of places I can farm a bunch of them.  I've literally never cared about farming them, but have millions of them lying around.  They aren't something that requires a dedicated farm, they're the resource which accumulates without any real consideration.  This is why they have requirements in the same range as alloy plate, ferrite, and salvage.  

 

3) MMO elements are not an excuse.  Period, end of sentence.  Care to argue?  MMO is massive multiplayer online.  An MMO has nothing to do with grind, but it has everything to do with player interactions.  Let me be clear, Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.  The "grind" is rewarded every step of the way.  I start out, get loot, and craft.  I get more powerful items.  I then go out and get better loot, and craft better items, and get stronger.  Repeat until the endgame content, where I can spend hours grinding for any one thing, but will always get more power for my time.  Let me be blunt, warframe doesn't do this.  Warframe has an artificial power ceiling. 

Why?  Well, the issues with most long term gaming is power creep.  Old gear becomes garbage because hammer +2 always beats hammer +1.  What warframe has instead done is introduce a litany of new resources, each added and largely forgotten about once the content is done.  They then make token appearances later.  I will elaborate and ask when you last cared about Hexenon, Grokdrul, Thermal Sludge, and other items was (prior to the Helminth).  The answer for most people is that the second you were done grinding you stopped caring.  Now the Helminth is actually requiring some of this stuff.  Yay.

So, what's the correct balance for suddenly needing a litany of resources?  Well, DE doesn't have it.  The lazy way is to pull player data, identify the top 5% of players inventories, average this out, and then divide by some value to make inventories disappear.  That's a bad idea.  Why?  Well, that means we could literally be seeing 100k of alloy plates or ferrite as a single infusion.  Ouch.  That must mean they have an alternative method.  Well, the next easiest solution is units per drop, multiplied by desired drop count, and divided by rarity.  This effectively would mean that you are expected to run an average number of missions to get the thing.  Well, 3 argon and 1000 fresnels indicates they didn't do that math.  Wow.  It's almost like there was no planning.

 

4) MR 8 is the lock.  MR 10 locks automatically slotting ayatan stars.  MR 16 is the last level with anything locked currently, and it's rivens.  DE decided to go from MR 15 to MR 8.  With it they set the tone.  The argument that "this isn't for newer players" died when they decided to go that low.

Might I have a reason for this stance?  Did DE ever directly contradict your point, and support mine?  Yes on both counts.  Prior to the launch of Deimos Rebecca gave an interview, stating that the Helminth system was locked to a higher mastery rank because there's too much for a new player to do with it.  DE then changed it from a 30% content to 10% content lock.  If you want to argue that it isn't intended for newbies, you have to explain the shift.  My only option is to say DE wanted it for experienced players, then caved to demand from somewhere to change.  Why?  Likely because Deimos was content light without it.

 

5) But by the time you get to Deimos you might not have resources.

But nothing.  Show me a player that has the ability to feed anything to the Helminth and I'll show you a player with enough resources to burn.  Run the Jackal enough to get the blue prints for Rhino, Vay Hek for Hydroid, and Kril for Excalibur and you'll have resources in nearly everything.  Take even a minor diversion in Deimos and you will have everything.  Like it or not, DE restructured resources with Deimos to give you access to everything but Hexenon prior to setting foot on Deimos.

Now, explain why it is unreasonable to demand that rewards in this game are reasonable.

 

6) Final point here, grind is not fun.  There is no debate.  What is fun is obtaining rewards, completing challenges, or getting new stuff.  You say that an internally driven challenge is what spurs you, fine.  After literal days of survivals against the same brain dead AI that wins by scaling, I don't care.  I likewise don't care about cosmetic rewards.  I do care about tangible things.  In the case of the Helminth that's not flowers on the wall, but applying abilities to frames.  Removing airburst from Zephyr, Ballistic Battery from Mesa, and adding Tesla Nervos to Limbo is the reward.  The cost is time.

I then derive fun from melting enemies easier, because the game is a power fantasy.

The obstacle to this is bad economy.  I have a timer for subsumes.  I have a material cost for subsumes.  I have a feed system requiring a timer.  The timer there can decrease costs by 90% by waiting.  I can only have three powers per frame, but I literally cannot apply some in tandem in a single day because their cost exceeds what I can generate reasonably.  All of this points to a crap economy, that is driving a system into the ground, built atop broken promises.

 

 

 

So, how do we fix it?

Lowest effort is to slap in more resource types.

Minimum effort to show concern is to add resources, and review costings.

Maximum effort is to review resources, review costings, and review the ability costs to bring them in line with the promised ability to iterate.

DE decided on the lowest possible effort...That speaks volumes about how little of a crap they give 30+days into this.  As such, it smells like another system delivered with no reason to care once it is used on your frame of choice.  It won't suddenly let you customize the frame you never use into something fun.  It won't give us whole new ways to play.  It'll just be the source of a few meta builds, which will eventually get nerfed if they ever get too good.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

And for boosters, anyone that has played awhile can make plat without paying. This Helminth system isn't really for people that just started playing and just made MR 8. If they try to rush to the Helminth straight from the starchart they're gonna run into multiple problems.

funny thing is you can farm plat for a booster in the very same mission where you farm cryotic.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-09-28 at 4:12 AM, linn4you said:

i don´t want to be impatient but any eta on hotfix? it´s almost 6 days ago

it´s way to expensive to experiment with the helminth system right now,
and it doesn´t make sense to invest ressources until the hotfix arrives,
i don´t want to subsume any warframe or infuse any ability that uses bile until i know how many ressources we get back
therefore you probably miss alot of feedback too

and i´m getting sick of ppl trying to convince us that the ratio is fine, omg...
no healthy human or non-human beeing farms bile at current time/ressource ratio...

They said the hotfix would be sometime this week if I recall correctly. Usually updates drop on a wednesday most commonly, so I've been expecting the hotfix to show up tomorrow. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

They said the hotfix would be sometime this week if I recall correctly. Usually updates drop on a wednesday most commonly, so I've been expecting the hotfix to show up tomorrow. 

Megan said in her stream yesterday that the bile changes would be today 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

No one said you're supposed to run Excavation solely for infusion in one go. 

Resources are acquired passively over time. You run a few here and there and it adds up. 

People are simply trying to rush the content and are upset they have to display patience. No one is obligated to let you guys rush the Helminth. It's not going anywhere, as it's not a timed event, not sure if you're aware.

passive over time = oberon parts

or stuff like ferrite, alloy plate, and so on... cryotic? no.

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

funny thing is you can farm plat for a booster in the very same mission where you farm cryotic.

and the time use to farm plat can also be used to get stuff like zaw, equinox and so on

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Stop.  Take a breath.  Look at what you are saying.

 

Now that we're here, let's talk about this.

1) The content hasn't been out two months.  If it was the subsuming would already be done.  There are 40 something frames.  There was about 72 hours of wait.  I have about 12 frames remaining, thus this content had been out for a single month.  Simplistic math here.

Sounds like some pretty sustainable content (something people have asked for) if you admit you're almost done in one more month. If you only have 12 more frames to subsume that's a pretty good amount for rushing the content. 2 months to complete something that's such a major piece of content sounds pretty good.

 

2) Nano spore farming is a joke, right?  In any two runs of a variety of places I can farm a bunch of them.  I've literally never cared about farming them, but have millions of them lying around.  They aren't something that requires a dedicated farm, they're the resource which accumulates without any real consideration.  This is why they have requirements in the same range as alloy plate, ferrite, and salvage.  

 

3) MMO elements are not an excuse.  Period, end of sentence.  Care to argue?  MMO is massive multiplayer online.  An MMO has nothing to do with grind, but it has everything to do with player interactions. (Except for all of the ways to solo in MMOs like fishing or crafting or an actual separate mode to go solo to utilize your own time and playstyle etc. So it's actually not all about player interaction, it's the choice and freedom to interact when one is ready and also have your own alone time) Let me be clear, Guild Wars 2 is an MMO.  The "grind" is rewarded every step of the way.  I start out, get loot, and craft.  I get more powerful items.  I then go out and get better loot, and craft better items, and get stronger.  Repeat until the endgame content, where I can spend hours grinding for any one thing, but will always get more power for my time.Let me be blunt, warframe doesn't do this.  Warframe has an artificial power ceiling. An MMO has nothing to do with grind, yet you just provided an example of grind from another MMO (Guild Wars). I saw nothing about player interaction within your sentence "I start out, get loot, and craft.  I get more powerful items.  I then go out and get better loot, and craft better items, and get stronger.  Repeat until the endgame content, where I can spend hours grinding for any one thing". Sounds like your basic MMO that is actually about both grind and player interaction, simultaneously.....Just like warframe, where your grind can be made much easier through player interaction e.g. "Hey buddy, I'm a farm frame, can you bring your Speed Nova and come farm with me? Cool".

And that's odd, because I just grinded endo and credits to use on a Primed mod, which made me stronger as a result....I guess I got more power for my time....because I can see the difference that Primed faction mod makes clear as day.

Why?  Well, the issues with most long term gaming is power creep.  Old gear becomes garbage because hammer +2 always beats hammer +1.  What warframe has instead done is introduce a litany of new resources, each added and largely forgotten about once the content is done.  They then make token appearances later.  I will elaborate and ask when you last cared about Hexenon, Grokdrul, Thermal Sludge, and other items was (prior to the Helminth).  The answer for most people is that the second you were done grinding you stopped caring.  Now the Helminth is actually requiring some of this stuff.  Yay. 

So, what's the correct balance for suddenly needing a litany of resources?  Well, DE doesn't have it.  The lazy way is to pull player data, identify the top 5% of players inventories, average this out, and then divide by some value to make inventories disappear.  That's a bad idea.  Why?  Well, that means we could literally be seeing 100k of alloy plates or ferrite as a single infusion.  Ouch. 100k ferrite and alloy is not a lot....That must mean they have an alternative method.  Well, the next easiest solution is units per drop, multiplied by desired drop count, and divided by rarity.  This effectively would mean that you are expected to run an average number of missions to get the thing.  Well, 3 argon and 1000 fresnels indicates they didn't do that math.  Wow.  It's almost like there was no planning. 

They've adjusted the railjack resources, as everyone seemed to be in agreement they were high. It was the most recent game mode and wasn't being played as much. Argon Crystals are incredibly easy to obtain, so that's not an issue for a capable player. 

 

4) MR 8 is the lock.  MR 10 locks automatically slotting ayatan stars.  MR 16 is the last level with anything locked currently, and it's rivens.  DE decided to go from MR 15 to MR 8.  With it they set the tone.  The argument that "this isn't for newer players" died when they decided to go that low. Or they were trying to be more inclusive. We don't know, as we'd need an official response from DE as to why they lowered it to MR 8. Any tone set or arguments made invalid are your own speculation and nothing more until a statement is released. Your speculation doesn't become more than such just because you really want it to mean something.

Might I have a reason for this stance?  Did DE ever directly contradict your point, and support mine?  Yes on both counts.  Prior to the launch of Deimos Rebecca gave an interview, stating that the Helminth system was locked to a higher mastery rank because there's too much for a new player to do with it.  DE then changed it from a 30% content to 10% content lock.  If you want to argue that it isn't intended for newbies, you have to explain the shift.  My only option is to say DE wanted it for experienced players, then caved to demand from somewhere to change.  Why?  Likely because Deimos was content light without it.

We don't know why DE lowered the MR requirement, you have to ask them.....But it's already been established there were many complaints against it....If I were to speculate, DE was trying to not exclude players, which is a nice thing to do. That however doesn't mean they have to lower the entire bar. They let the MR 8s in the door, but now it's that MR8s own responsibility to put the work in if he for some reason, absolutely has to subsume 10 frames as soon as possible. That demand to subsume x amount of frames is in his own head. That MR 8 needs to work with what he has and have a goal of subsuming 1 or 2 frames until he has more resources, where he originally would not have had the option to even participate. 

 

5) But by the time you get to Deimos you might not have resources.

But nothing.  Show me a player that has the ability to feed anything to the Helminth and I'll show you a player with enough resources to burn.  Run the Jackal enough to get the blue prints for Rhino, Vay Hek for Hydroid, and Kril for Excalibur and you'll have resources in nearly everything.  Take even a minor diversion in Deimos and you will have everything.  Like it or not, DE restructured resources with Deimos to give you access to everything but Hexenon prior to setting foot on Deimos.

Now, explain why it is unreasonable to demand that rewards in this game are reasonable.

Rewards are reasonable in many aspects. You're gonna have to be more specific. Some players have unreasonable expectations for rewards and I have not seen an explanation for that yet, either....So I guess it goes both ways. It is completely possible for both DE and some players to be unreasonable....what a surprise, I guess things aren't one-sided. 

 

6) Final point here, grind is not fun.  There is no debate. There actually is....your statements dealing in absolutes don't change that, sorry. What is fun is obtaining rewards (that you've completed something for, as they don't fall out of the sky), completing challenges, or getting new stuff (Which you get from completing something)  You say that an internally driven challenge is what spurs you, fine.  After literal days of survivals against the same brain dead AI that wins by scaling, I don't care.  I likewise don't care about cosmetic rewards (some people do, and also grind for them, as well as buy them, it's their choice).  I do care about tangible things.  In the case of the Helminth that's not flowers on the wall, but applying abilities to frames.  Removing airburst from Zephyr, Ballistic Battery from Mesa, and adding Tesla Nervos to Limbo is the reward.  The cost is time.

I then derive fun from melting enemies easier, because the game is a power fantasy. (We were melting things before the Helminth, but sure).

The obstacle to this is bad economy.  I have a timer for subsumes.  I have a material cost for subsumes.  I have a feed system requiring a timer.  The timer there can decrease costs by 90% by waiting.  I can only have three powers per frame, but I literally cannot apply some in tandem in a single day because their cost exceeds what I can generate reasonably.  All of this points to a crap economy, that is driving a system into the ground, built atop broken promises.

The timers are nothing new, and no one said DE is obligated to cater to your content-rushing playstyle. Maybe try enjoying the frames you have already subsumed while you wait? You didn't even know the Helminth existed 30 days ago....so because you decided you want it faster the game should just let you...... because just 30 days ago.... you randomly without cause.....decided you dont care about anything but subsuming frames and melting enemies? That's what you said, correct? You don't care about cosmetics or fighting braindead AI....But you also just stated you want to melt enemies....so which one is it? Do you like fighting braindead AI or not? 

So, how do we fix it?

Lowest effort is to slap in more resource types. According to who? Who has decided this is lowest effort?

Minimum effort to show concern is to add resources, and review costings. Once again....who decided this is minimum effort? And they've already reviewed costings....This is what the OP is about.

Maximum effort is to review resources, review costings, and review the ability costs to bring them in line with the promised ability to iterate. Who decided that was maximum effort?

DE decided on the lowest possible effort (Who decided this?)...That speaks volumes about how little of a crap they give 30+days into this.  As such, it smells like another system delivered with no reason to care once it is used on your frame of choice.  It won't suddenly let you customize the frame you never use into something fun. (Your subjective opinion) It won't give us whole new ways to play.  It'll just be the source of a few meta builds, which will eventually get nerfed if they ever get too good. Opinion. You don't decide what people play with. You're more than welcome to only follow the meta, no one made you, and no one said the current level of customization isn't fun. "Fun" is subjective, which is why you don't decide what it is for other people.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...