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Marked For Death: Where We’ve Been, and Changes to Come


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2 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

to help prevent anyone from feeling as though there was only one ‘good way’ to use the Helminth System

"No good way to use the Helminth is better than several good ways" that's the impression that we get when looking at your actions with the Helminth system. And not only with the Helminth system.

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9 minutes ago, PrinceMeliodas said:

"xoris added zero damage" Thats a bold face lie, the fact is a xoris with a perfectly rolled riven 

Ermmm.... Something seems off here.... so was the Xoris adding the damage or the Riven? Ermm.... Well i guess its the Xoris fault that Rivens effects Khora's 1. 
And before you ask I use rivens on Khora's 1 but I don't trade for them cuz I'm not giving DE money for encouraging people to basically gamble.

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Great! I'm glad to see that you're taking community feedback to heart and not just nerfing it and leaving it there. 

Can we start going back and buffing the things that are useless before we dive into the next new thing?

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2 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

which will cap at 150% with Mods

The rest of it sounds good but the cap seems unnecesary. These caps tend to be pretty unintuitive and in this case likely not very helpful.

Any word on the other Helminth abilities. Perspicacity and Master's Summon could both use secondary effects to make them more viable.

Masters Summon should get a secondary ability on hold where your pet will use its first precept that effect enemies on the enemy you are targeting so kavats could more reliably strip single target armor or Sahasha and Sunika kubrows could do their finisher on an enemy you chose, Helminth could do its charge or pull, Raksa could do its howl, Huras has its tackle and so on excluding self buffs like Charm.

Perspicacity likewise could use a hold ability to control up to a certain number of robotic enemies in an AOE.

In addition, we kill way too fast to take proper advantage of Expedite Suffering. At the very least it should apply a damage multiplier. Woyld be interesting if it was channeled in an AOE around the player too, effectively working as a more passivve damage buff to frames that use DOTs.

 

 

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As someone who hasn't used mark for death before or after the nerfs but has paid attention to them, I think the changes were necessary. Looking at how it works now it makes much more sense, it should be used to wipe enemies weaker than the target marked for death and not wipe entire rooms regardless of what enemy is targeted. Some damage buffs to counter peoples complaints should hopefully be all that's needed to let it have it's place, at most some minor tweaking after that.

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Appreciate the fact you are revisiting the ability, and I'll wait to try it with passing judgement, but my hot take is the following:

  • Don't think making power strength mandatory is a good idea for the ability... Build is already socket starved as it is, as it requires tons of Range Mods + Energy Mods (Flow, maybe efficiency) to be usable. Really don't see how someone is supposed to fit in range / strength / energy / survivability mods / the fatal teleport augment AND some duration since you nerfed the interaction with Arcane Trickery and ppl now need to mod for duration if they want to stay invisible.
  • Unless I read this wrong, you don't seem to have addressed the capped damage, meaning you will still not oneshot enemies like before.
  • It's still a very slow, clunky and expensive skill to use compared to tons of AOE nukes and weapons that do the same thing much , much faster. Again , not trying to get other stuff nerfed, but we're in a game where tons of weapons and frames can basically wipe entire rooms in a single button press, so why again is an ability that requires two abilities cast and has tons of drawbacks getting nerfed ?
  • Again , only a handful of frames were able to really use the ability before, with most of these frames being frames in a bad spot in the meta. Still don't get why it was so problematic to give said frames better tools to be on par with usual AOE nuker frames.
Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

so what if it's only fully effective on only a few frames, not everything should be for everything. 

if something is only decent on 2-3 frames, its simply not good. nobody is saying that it should be good on everything, but it should be good on a lot more things.

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17 minutes ago, NickelStiller said:

"No good way to use the Helminth is better than several good ways" that's the impression that we get when looking at your actions with the Helminth system. And not only with the Helminth system.

Nah, that's not "we" that's "you" and your spoiled brat attitude.

Anyway, the next round of changes to MFD look pretty good and it ought to continue to be strong for Warframes that debuff enemies to take more damage, particularly in conjunction with the Panzer Vulpaphyla.

Edited by TheGrimCorsair
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb [DE]Marcus:

We are changing Marked for Death to start its base damage at 65%, which will cap at 150% with Mods.  Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision. 

Simply put: We’re bringing the damage back up!

This is great and all but it doesn't really solve the core issue that MfD has right now.

The ability is hyper centralizing, now even more so. You need a fairly high amount of range to get it functional as a proper AoE (and even then it still is hampered by LoS) and with these changes you also need a high amount of Strength on top to get this ability to kill things. So if you want to use MfD you go all in on this singular ability and everything that still works on your frame is basically just coincidence.

It replicating damage types and procs is useful but at the same time it also means that most damage is affected by armor or other damage reductions enemies have, which in return makes even high strength investments ineffective against these enemies.

All this does is that it restores it as an AoE finisher tool (at an excessive cost), as it is what circumvents most of the ability's limitations. If I wanted to blow a room up with a heavy attack inducing a powerful slash proc I'm better off infusing Ensnare or Larva and completely forego any Strength requirements and gain control over the enemies on top.

The main issue this ability has is the damage spread being capped to enemy health. In order to reliably generate lethal force on armored enemies or make those spread DoTs significant enough we need the overkill damage we can generate on the initial target.

And if its not the intention of the ability to be lethal then I ask: Whats the point? I need to invest like ~200 Range and ~200 Strength, give up functionalities of my Warframe and use specific weapons able to properly synergize with MfD in order to... not kill stuff? The sheer irony is, that if overkill values are such a problem its already showing how insignifcant these enemies are. So there is virtually no point in only dropping them to 10% health because then I just end up swinging/shooting at them for damage that far exceeds their original health pool. Any enemy left standing after MfD might as well not have been hit at all in terms of kill speed.

Edited by Raikh
wording/typos
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Not to be a spoilsport (I'm glad you guys are going to give this ability an actual use again), but what is the point of creating an ability that you KNOW is going to cause a massive burst of damage, claim that its "intended use" is to distribute damage dealt to a heavy unit, then walk it back to an unusable state, only to bring it back to near the level it was initially implemented? I'm seriously having trouble understanding your design philosophy with the Helminth system as a whole, when obviously Rhino's ability is not only the easiest to get your hands on and has the highest throughput of basically every ability in game, when Loki is harder to get and his ability donated is functionally worthless outside of some serious edge cases. We were told at Tennocon that none of the abilities on the Helminth list would be "signature" abilities, which was hinted as being fourth slots, but was also implied to be basically the things that make that Warframe unique. To me, abilities like Rhino's Roar and Valkyr's Warcry are two of the most definitive abilities of those frames, so it was shocking to see them included. What's worse, was that the system had to be gimped a WEEK before launch because of these, and some others.

MFD doesn't have the luxury of seven years of being in the game and being a highly sought after ability for a team. It was designed this year, perhaps even within the last two months. It had the benefit of 176 powers, not counting modes, being in the game and giving it a path to have its own niche. Then, suddenly, it drops in its hideous glory, and yeah I'll admit the mods stacking twice was a bug, but it was clearly working as intended, and outside of the Sim, it was actually fairly unreliable. I understand the team is looking at usage statistics as the basis for their decisions, but stats are really good at hiding the truth. It's a new toy. Of course people are going to play with it. Then they're going to realize their damage cap Ash Fatal Tele-Mark is either A) boring as hell to play, or B) nowhere near as effective as as an Equinox paying attention to how much damage she's taken in and releasing Maim. This is coming off the heels of the Xoris, a sub-optimal weapon that had a strong gimmick, being practically deleted because of an uptick in usage stats.

My point is this: Unless something is literally coded incorrectly in the game, do not reduce the stats of an item within a month of its debut. Of course the usage is going to overwhelmingly favor new items. The way this game's updates are released, you are basically asking us to try the new stuff out, and go out of our way to get it. This is a good thing, this means you have compelling content and your players are hooked. But if you release an ability that has very high damage potential if you go out of your way to actually capitalize on, all of that hard work is undone on the whim of the balance team saying (sometimes facetiously, see Khora and Limbo during Scarlet Spear) saying it is "working unintentionally."

If something is dysfunctional, please state in detail 1) what that function is supposed to be, 2) the nature of the malfunction/dysfunction, 3) what the plan is to balance it, and possibly 4) accept the heat you get from players who are understandably cheesed at the fact that they dumped an Umbra forma into a weapon that no longer has a reason to be used one day later (I'm not bitter about that, I swear. ;) ). I understand that you're probably looking at this (if you even are) and saying "I don't owe this guy nuthin'," and you're right. You don't. But, not to be a doomsayer, I'm not the only player who's upset at how things have been lately. I love this game. But I can't recommend it to anyone. I've actually literally called Warframe "the worst game I can't stop playing." Part of the reason I have trouble saying this game is good is because of the year (literally one year) of knee-jerk changes to the game as soon as a dominant strategy surfaces. We lost the Xoris, we lost (and now are regaining) Marked for Death, and Venari's Heal led to basically a complete retooling of how objective healing in the game worked. I hope this leads to an internal discussion that opens up a dialogue with the players. Don't forget the basics of writing, write for your audience, not yourself.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post, and hopefully read this. And thank you, forum-goer, for reading another one of my text walls.

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1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

I don't think you will need that much. There are already a lot of warframe abilities with capped  %. Like Nova's Molecular Prime for example, you only need like...25% of sth power strength to reach the 75% slow cap. Adding more strength won't do anything more. 

Here's hoping but I doubt they're going to make it too unreasonable. 

Nova's Molecular Prime does not scale the way most powers do. It has a 30% base slow, and any additional str you add is converted directly into slow%. e.g. you have 30% base+30% intensify = 60% slow. and it caps at 75% max.

This is not how the vast majority abilities scale in Warframe. Most abilities scale multiplicatively. so 200%, is 2x whatever the base value is. MFD base value is 65% damage passed on at 100% str. Therefore 200% str would be 65% x 2 = 130%. In order to hit the cap of 150% damage, you have to multiply 65% x 2.31 (231%).

 

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39 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

if something is only decent on 2-3 frames, its simply not good. nobody is saying that it should be good on everything, but it should be good on a lot more things.

I honestly...don't see the reason why that should be the case. It's not like it was good for more than a few frames, before all the fixes and changes anyway. I honestly wouldn't consider M4D to be one of those abilities that are....must-haves. Niche mods. Just like how Rage/ Hunter Andrenaline only works well with a number of warframe. 

 

14 minutes ago, SaintSigmaX said:

Nova's Molecular Prime does not scale the way most powers do. It has a 30% base slow, and any additional str you add is converted directly into slow%. e.g. you have 30% base+30% intensify = 60% slow. and it caps at 75% max.

This is not how the vast majority abilities scale in Warframe. Most abilities scale multiplicatively. so 200%, is 2x whatever the base value is. MFD base value is 65% damage passed on at 100% str. Therefore 200% str would be 65% x 2 = 130%. In order to hit the cap of 150% damage, you have to multiply 65% x 2.31 (231%).

I don't know how the math works dude, maybe it will work like Nova's Molecular Prime, who knows. 

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3 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

It was intended that if you took out a heavy unit, enough damage could be dealt to units with lower health around to kill them (or come very, very close).

Your vision is objectively wrong. While the damage was definitely bugged and needed fixing, the ability itself was simply viable. The numbers themselves were OP, but the act of having to mark an enemy then jump on them was, and still is, objectively weak. Combo builds in Warframe have a history of being trash because of the extremely frustrating setup that they require, where while you're setting it up, someone in your team will inevitably kill the entire room with less overkill by using a single weapon or ability. 

The damage should be enough to take down a lv 100 heavy by targeting a light enemy, but require more thought as the level goes up. In short, it should count for the transferred damage, but with a multiplier cap on it. Say, 5x the max health of a unit. That would make it useful for higher levels, where it is simply too chaotic to pick a heavy twice with an ability. 

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1 minute ago, SprinKah said:

I honestly...don't see the reason why that should be the case. It's not like it was good for more than a few frames, before all the fixes and changes anyway. I honestly wouldn't consider M4D to be one of those abilities that are....must-haves. Niche mods. Just like how Rage/ Hunter Andrenaline only works well with a number of warframe. 

rage/hunter adrenaline is good on a lot of frames. m4d is good on at most 3. 

before the changes you could actually use it decently enough with single hit weapons like snipers and bows. now you need to use it with finishers if you wanna get anything out of it at all.

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3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

rage/hunter adrenaline is good on a lot of frames. m4d is good on at most 3. 

before the changes you could actually use it decently enough with single hit weapons like snipers and bows. now you need to use it with finishers if you wanna get anything out of it at all.

I did not know that, about the sniper thing, i just assumed they don't deal enough damage to really have an effect in high levels. But hey, benefit of the doubt dude, just wait and see will ya?

Still, if M4D can make 2-3 warframes more viable, then that's good enough to me. 

Edited by SprinKah
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got to wonder why Magus Lockdown was never revisited like this.... just a straight slam 8 days after the R5 arcane upgrade... removing all damage

.. yet it was in game for almost 2 years prior with the same effect as a r3...

While i personal will never bother with MFD.. till this fiasco is over...

I still wonder why this special treatment for one thing but not the other 🙄

Edited by Thawfoot
typos...ofc
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1 hour ago, Pendragon1951 said:

Unless I'm doing something wrong or don't have her modded correctly Sayrn struggles with anything getting into higher levels, on Hydron for instance first 5 waves ok, but after that she does not clear a room, damage ticks off very very slow,  on the other hand M4D could clear a room of 140's without batting an eye

1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

i dunno dude, I don't even have Saryn. All I know is every time I see a Saryn in my squad, god knows how she's able to kill 90% of the enemies is...beyond me. 

You might not have enough str and range. But if you want to nuke fast with Saryn, you have to cast your 3, cast your 1 on a dude, then hit him. this will infect a bunch of others dudes around him, then you hit your 4 and they take a massive DoT that melts them if they have spores on them. if they die from the DoT it will also spread the spores to nearby enemies. You also want to try to keep your spore train going cause the tick dmg ramps up over time. until you're doing 2-3k corrosive ticks. and also proc'ing corrosive to strip armor. if you let let your spores completely die out your dmg will crash and you have to ramp it up again. Key is to keep your 1 and 3 going all the time, occasionally nuking with your 4.

I personally recommend about 200% str, and a bare minimum of 175% range.

I can easily go 20 waves on hydron or 8 rounds in ESO without breaking a sweat.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

I did not know that, about the sniper thing, i just assumed they don't deal enough damage to really have an effect in high levels. But hey, benefit of the doubt dude, just wait and see will ya?

Still, if M4D can make 2-3 warframes more viable, then that's good enough to me. 

i did enough "waiting and seeing" with warframe to know better than not talking about the issues that bother me.

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1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

i did enough "waiting and seeing" with warframe to know better than not talking about the issues that bother me.

fair enough, I'm still interested to see how this pans out.

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