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Marked For Death: Where We’ve Been, and Changes to Come


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1 hour ago, Pendragon1951 said:

Unless I'm doing something wrong or don't have her modded correctly Sayrn struggles with anything getting into higher levels, on Hydron for instance first 5 waves ok, but after that she does not clear a room, damage ticks off very very slow,  on the other hand M4D could clear a room of 140's without batting an eye

Toxic Lash aug + mod for strength & range (like always) and throw in Miasma every once in a while. She slays at any level.

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Give it a chance, we all will.

My opinion: still only fundamentally useful on Ash, Revenant, Equinox, and a few other select frames.

Not a be-all end-all ability like it used to be for Steel path, but seems more viable for normal content as well as being happy it's not getting completely trashed.

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17 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

I strongly believe that they should've used Rhino Charge and Valkyr's paralysis or whatever instead of Roar and War Cry. 

You never know dude, I'm just saying, I think it's better to not risk warframes becoming redundant with those choices. You're right, POTENTIALLY not a lot of players would probably touch Radial Disarm that much but it's still an option, it's still an ability that Loki's quite known for, I think it's best to not leave things to chances. Plus it's not like they're ever gonna do it, DE said they will never use ultimate abilities for Helminth, and rightfully so I believe. 

Though if you ask me, a lot of lesser abilities can potentially be fixed with augments, and with multiple augments you can really do a lot of creative and interesting things, so I'd say eventhough in hindsight, a lot of abilities like Decoy and what not can look pretty useless, there are augments that can make them pretty damn decent options. You can argue that "Oh but I don't want to use an augment to make an ability decent", honestly I'd rather have augments, as a mean to offer players A LOT of different directions you can alter your ability with, than simply one-directional buffs that you can't do much with. Augments fix a lot of issues with the lesser Helminth abilities, while they won't exactly be better options than let's say...Roar or Helminth Strength or whatever, they're not NOT viable. 

My brain is kinda melted rn so I hope what I replied to you with reflects what you wrote to me...

Oh, I was talking a LOT more along the lines of your first line I left in this quotation, not that I wanted or expected ultimates, just that Radial Disarm wouldn't be that competitive an option, when even something like a nerfed Roar exists, or Terrify exists, as a Helminth option. I keep saying, I'd have preferred they choose something less overwhelming, and buff it a bit. Doesn't have to be a signature or ultimate or meta gamechanger. Just make it approximately as compelling as the next option.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb PrinceMeliodas:

"xoris added zero damage" Thats a bold face lie, the fact is a xoris with a perfectly rolled riven was better then ANY other stat stick out there because no matter what it stayed at 12x combo because of its infinite combo duration which is a mistake.

You seem to conveniently forget that xoris launched with a 0.5 disposition. It was never the strongest option, just the most convenient. minimum disposition rivens are barely better than regular mods.

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Guys, i'm sorry but this will not solve the problem. What is the thing that every warframe that can use M4D at any capacity has in common? True damage. The big problem with M4D is that it reduces the damage FOUR TIMES:
1. Damage caused is reduced by the target's armor;
2. If one-shot, it is then reduced by the overkill value;
3. Then the cap comes in and reduces it further (this is going to change later);
4. Finally the armor from the enemies in the area reduces again a value that's already minimal in higher levels.
A Lv130 Heavy Gunner has 36k health which will be reduced by the Lancer's 85% damage reduction resulting in 5.4k which can be increased to an astounding 8k with 150% and that's nowhere enough to deal with A LEVEL 130 LANCER (13k health). And I'm not even taking the steel path's damage reduction into consideration! If the damage is strong against that specific enemy then it gets better but it can be annoying to go around avoiding bombards because of the damage type when they should be the prime target for the skill.

How to easily fix this? Just make the skill do True Damage. The damage is not increased further because every target is neutral to true damage and it enables different things to be used with it, giving a new life to a lot of strategies. Here are a few examples:
1. Snipers in general, specially Banshee. Exploding everyone around the main target makes snipers a lot more satisfying to play in regular missions.
2. Single target nukes. This type of skill is pointless in warframe because it's practically a musou/warriors game with guns and big bosses are immune to them but having a way to transform that damage into area damage really enables to use what is already in the game but also gives more freedom so you can design new single target skills in the future.
3. Something I call "The Nyx Bomb" which is basically mind controlling an enemy, feeding a ton of damage into it and letting it blow once the duration ends. It was clunky but it was fun and nyx is already underused but without true damage, it only tickles the enemies.

Don't kill the skill, DE! I feel changing it to True alongside the improved values would definitely make it useful in every level of play without breaking it and even if that does happen, it can still be balanced around caps while the way it is right now is absolutely useless for higher level of play no matter how high the cap is. Thanks for hearing us out!

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5 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

With the Helminth System, we knew that abilities/systems may need to be tweaked back and forth to help prevent anyone from feeling as though there was only one ‘good way’ to use the Helminth System.

Hey Marcus (and everyone else at DE).

I think there are two major reasons why backlash against nerfs (such as this one) have been so strong, besides the general "nerfs suck" sentiment.

First is a simple mixture of time and communication. Changes to gameplay elements like Marked for Death effectively go from one state to another: there's no warning to players that there is some unintended behaviour behind the scenes that is throwing things askew.

Second is an apparent preference toward nerfing rather than buffing. In comparing Helminth abilities to ordinary Warframe powers - take the shield restore ability versus Harrow's Condemn (CC + shield + overshield) or Hildryn's Pillage (defence strip + shield + overshield), both with no cooldown - there's quite a bit of wiggle-room, even when considering Helminth abilities are easier to get.

I think what could help stave these sorts of reactions off is, basically, to keep us in the loop in hotfix notes (or something that can be thrown on the Orbiter news station). If something isn't working as intended, include it in a hotfix once it's noticed. It doesn't have to include something done about it, or even a plan for what to do about it. It can be as simple as "x thing isn't working as intended (maybe it double-dips on mods, or maybe you don't know the cause), we're leaving it for now, but we're working on ways to fix it." If something seems too weak and there are thoughts about buffing things, say that too. Again, there's no need to commit at all or even detail exactly what's wrong: recognizing the issue is the point, and that can happen a lot sooner than the actual fix.

Then, once that note is made, bookmark it somewhere. That way, when the fix does come, that link can be tossed right into that hotfix note list. Will everybody listen to the warning? Of course not. But, like updating Riven dispositions, there will be people pointing out that the warnings were there.

Without this kind of communication, we end up with things that are powerful, yet not unbelievably so, getting kicked in the teeth from left field while other elements of the game are "forgotten" - not that they actually are, just that nothing being said on the matter makes it look that way. It's created an assumption that anything considered "good" is going to get nerfed - it's not just a meme, it's a genuine expectation - and everything considered "bad" won't get touched before the heat death of the universe. In some circles, it's also created the assumption that some behaviour being unintended is just an excuse to nerf something.

This isn't so much about what happens as it is when we know. That we end up blindsighted by nerfs and ignorant to potential buffs or reworks builds an appearance, not one I think is intended, nor one I think is very flattering. Again: commitment isn't the major issue. Turning game updates into a clandestine operation, ensuring we don't know what's coming until it hits us, is.

So on that note: thank you for keeping us in the loop with this thread. That is appreciated. I only wish we could've been tugged into it just a bit sooner.

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Let me tell you of a story of a bug that saved videogaming

Marios jump was a bug, the end

 

If double mod damage was a bug. i wouldnt call that "YIKES!!!" i'd call that something that saved mark of death on release

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1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Why do finishers still not proc statuses anyway?

Because standing finishers already deal true damage, which bypasses any armor and defense resistance. It doesn't matter if you are using a 100 impact damage weapon against a grinner (who have -25% resistance) or 100 puncture (+50% against ferrite armor), it will deal the same damage. Also, rapier finishers do in fact proc slash, which is one of the options when using Marked for Death.

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Dayum, good job for this, DE. Listened to the MOST complained thing and actually un-nerf it. Now, please check other MINOR bugs that needed to be fix (and QoL suggestions) that only a tiny of group complained/suggested and do nothing about it. 

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Love when you pretend to care when players leave, but the Xoris still hasn't been looked at and it's been months. At least go ahead and say that rivens bring income so you can't disable them as stat sticks, and if the Xoris exists players won't turn to rivens as much, say it. 

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14 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Because standing finishers already deal true damage, which bypasses any armor and defense resistance. It doesn't matter if you are using a 100 impact damage weapon against a grinner (who have -25% resistance) or 100 puncture (+50% against ferrite armor), it will deal the same damage. Also, rapier finishers do in fact proc slash, which is one of the options when using Marked for Death.

I don't see that as a valid argument, but alright.
Also basically saying "only use Rapiers for finishers" just isn't convincing when I can only replace one ability.
I won't be replying here again, just saying I'll see if it's good or not after the changes, and if it's still horrible then I'll just use one of the few good options left.

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Make the ability toggle like ash 4th in wide range and drains energy per kill (eg. current casting 50 iirc, when an enemy is killed it will drain that amount). This will ULTRA highlight the once you want US to kill to deal AOE damage. 

Once that 1 big unit dies another unit will be marked without having to click again.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited by UdsUds
wrong word
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I will reserve judgement until after the hotfix where this is changed,

 

But at a glance it feels closer to practical now than what it currently is,

155% strength will bring the damage spread to 100% by the sounds of it which is good enough for half the scenarios we face.

Assuming the "limited by health" condition is still active? so targeting enemies with low health is still a bad idea?

I feel it is a welcome change as of now , i am not sure if it is enough.

 

But i would like to bring attention to one aspect that was mentioned.

12 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision.

Now here lies the problem of intention against implementation in my opinion.

Outside of melee weapons with stances that force proc status and single element weapons with very very high base status chance you cannot predict if the attack you do is going to proc any status effect , and if it does its not always going to be the status you want.

MFD is a single damage instance ability , most weapons that rely on DOT or status effects are usually weapon with a large pellet count (either intrinsic or with MS mods), high fire rate or with very high weighting of an element. It is very very rarely a single instance damage type.

high fire rate or pellet count is pointless if only one of those bullets is going to be effective.

If the intention really was to make the ability effective for DOT , you should have considered a very short window of damage where all damage and status dealt could be spread (as little as 0.1 to 0.2 second window) after the window ends, maybe only one status proc would spread instead of the whole stack to keep it kinda balanced? or maybe half the stack?.

The current instance of MFD is only effective with weapons that are capable of high single instance damage , which happen to be finishers and the occasional sniper headshot (sniper is not always reliable cause MS can skew the results if the first bullet did not do enough damage to kill but the second one did).

Melee (non finisher) is kinda in an odd spot , it can do high single instance damage but the time it takes to set up MFD is more than it takes for me to swing my melee around in the same area to do equal if not more damage.

I feel the vision did not take into account the limitations that exist in order to meet it.

 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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21 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Our team made the decision to change Marked for Death, but based on community feedback and our own testing, the hammer was swung too hard on the changes - (compounded by the major fixes). The scenario we had re-balanced Marked For Death around was too rare to be useful and satisfying. We knew that the conversation was not over on Marked For Death, and we committed to taking another look to hopefully restore balance to this ability. Now that the facts have been laid out, here’s where that conversation continues today:

We are changing Marked for Death to start its base damage at 65%, which will cap at 150% with Mods.  Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision. 

Simply put: We’re bringing the damage back up!

The Dev work behind the scenes has already been completed, so we are now looking to submit the changes in a HF that will hopefully be going out next week with Helminth Bile changes as well!  

Any chance on changing the way the damage is applied? Acid Shells, Vulkan Blitz, and Mecha set mod bonus all work off of an enemies base health. Not it's current health. It doesn't really make sense for an ability that costs energy to work less well than those things that function similar and do not require energy. Seems pretty poor.

Edited by exturkconner
spelling error.
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11 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Isn't the Soma fully automatic? The entire point of Marked for Death is to make a damage instance into a "nuke". You're supposed to use it with something like Garuda's fully charged Blood Ball, to make enemies in it's area of effect receive even more damage, or multiply a sniper shot to a whole crowd.

No no, lol.

I believe they created the ability, not the community.

What they Invisioned was an Ability that would HELP kill off enemies around you, not instantly nuke them :

« The spirit of Marked for Death was to only consider the effective damage on the targeted enemy. It was intended that if you took out a heavy unit, enough damage could be dealt to units with lower health around to kill them (or come very, very close). It was not intended to use finishers that overkilled a unit with lower health that had enough MFD power to kill much larger and heavier units around it. »

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11 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

this unintentionally insanely powerful synergizing ability may fit into a new niche meta

Good God, this is SO OUT OF TOUCH with what the game currently offers as means of destruction I'm almost out of words to describe my disappointment.

Marked For Death was a symptom of a disease DE fails to cure with proper medicine. Should I shove much more broken builds under your nose?

Will you nerf them immediately or will these stay untouched for months, years - who knows at this point?

Why are players forced encouraged to negotiate with developers on such basic issues?

MFD was not useful for advanced players in most situations where efficiency is a priority. Ironically, it made several underplayed frames fun, pointing out how they could be improved to not rely on tiny AOE nuke. X must be mediocre so Y could shine in perspective is such a weird mentality during creative process.

Is there not enough youtube "guides" of Simulacrum heroes to inspire nerfs on most interesting Helminth synergies?

Should we snap and spam DE with videos of what is truly OP as a swan song titled "Play Your Own Game"? Because from my point of view this is the true problem shoved under the rug - we DO HAVE overpowered nonsense in Warframe, maybe domino effect nerfs starting from Octavia would benefit all BUT considering these things exist, players rightfully complain when some new feature is toned down from 'comparable with >insert OP stuff<' to 'not worth using in 90% of realistic scenarios'.

We all can learn from this experience. First of all, 100% guaranteed way how to make a calm baby cry is to give it candy and take it away. As game developers you are not benefactors, charity, caretakers - this is a deal which does not exist without players. Majority of which does not even visit this forum except for patch notes maybe, or reddit, they don't watch awkward devstreams, they only see layer of confusion and lack of competence. Of course those who invest time and energy in constructive criticism are accused of spiraling dev bashing which is the exact opposite of their intentions (example - Brozime VS Scott asking him to tone down). 

I'm not good at ending up on positive note so maybe imagine a playful puppy dog nibbling on your toes instead.
 

Edited by Sannidor
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I am getting really tired of hearing how this or that was "not in the spirit of" or "not the intended use." This is dishonest. Everything that gets nerfed gets those lines shoveled at us so that the Devs etc don't look like they are utterly clueless to their own game.

 

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt anymore changes will be made, despite the supposed desire to... well let's be honest, placate players. DE is known for the whole "fix it and forget it" way of doing things, and that's if you fix it to begin with. The fact that you decided this would be enough is not acceptable. But let's face it, short of quitting the game, we'll all just have to suck it up, because DE doesn't really listen to the players anymore.

 

I mean fishing with the new spears in deimos still locks you up since the release, that should have been fixed right away. The only saving grace is that you can just farm pylons instead. 

 

In the past year or so I have become more and more jaded and frustrated with the behavior at DE and how they approach the game.

 

I'd go into detail but there's a pretty good chance no one at DE is going to even check this thread now that they've "fixed" the problem.

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So it takes a week (probably thanks to backlash, otherwise nothing would happen for years) for you to admit that this nerf was totally overkill, and yet you double down on 4 out of 5 (If I remember correctly) nerfs for this ability?

Also - why would you ever try to combat "nieche metas" if you keep preaching about player choice and bulid diversity? It would seem like allowing more of these metas would be a better idea, therefore getting rid of the "meta" part.

I suggest making some changes to the way you "balance" Warframe, otherwise it'll end up dead soon enough.

Also also - latest Helminth Devstream was PAINFUL to watch.
"If every ability was good, then what do you do?" Seriously?

Edited by Xwograt
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If only there was some way to TEST the changes to MFD/the Helminth system, some kind of CLUSTER possibly? Also, isnt making it rely on slash procs/finishers RESTRICTIVE on PLAYER CHOICE? I thought DE didn't like that? 

Edited by Pandabarrel
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13 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Thanks for taking the time and effort to take a balanced look at it's place in the game and in isolation, to find a happy medium that makes the ability fun and effective, without making it dictate the meta.

Can we get similar passes on more of the abilities in Warframe? Rebb's stat-stream highlighted some consistently replaced-by-helminth-infusions abilities (Mesa's Ballistic Battery, Chroma's Breath Attack), and some of the least-Infused abilities (like Decoy, Mind Control, etc)?

yeah exactly , it would be a good time for time for it , radial javelin for exemple would benefit some tweak

something like....

 

GIVE US BACK THE OLD RADIAL JAVELIN 

or make it so it give excal some life steal ability for each ennemie hit with a javelin and make javelin actually impale ennemies w/e they dead or not

+if you dont rise up the number of javelin make is augment part of the skill , each ennemie hit is marked for X sec and keep jevelin stuck in his body if killed by excal whie impaled excal will gain +10% damage

 

or

 

Simply make all javelin benefit from melee weapon mods and if exalted is ON make them benefit from exalted blade mods + radial explosion of exalted javelin when they vanish

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