Marked For Death: Where We’ve Been, and Changes to Come

[Tsoe]

34 minutes ago, arkadikos213 said:

This gona be ok. Now make expedite suffering worth of 9 level of helminth. 

increase dmg from 1x to 1.5x and make it faster to cast.

yeah but it should as well interact with all procs

 

bleed and poison keep the same effect but all other procs gain X1.5  to 2.5 statut duration

[(XBOX)Lycentia]

14 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Enter Marked for Death. When we discovered the several unintentional effects that Marked for Death was occurring we knew we had to act efficiently before more resources went into Tenno carving out a build for it, and for how this unintentionally insanely powerful synergizing ability may fit into a new niche meta.

DE: You're supposed to have fun the way we tell you to, not do it your own way.

[MistressMoonpaw]

Since the damage is capped, can the skill get a % damage taken by the marked target bonus? After all youre marking one target to be killed and not "mark everyone around your main target for death".

 

Just my 2 cents on the skill

[(PSN)phelan_1988]

I'll be interested to try it and thanks for taking another pass on this one. It sounds like it will work better again so I want to give it a try. I still don't really think there was a problem with the original way except the mods double-stacking, but then again I've never understood why people cry for nerfs in this game. It seems like some people just super resent any frame that's not their favorite getting something nice.

[Xwograt]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)phelan_1988 said:

I'll be interested to try it and thanks for taking another pass on this one. It sounds like it will work better again so I want to give it a try. I still don't really think there was a problem with the original way except the mods double-stacking, but then again I've never understood why people cry for nerfs in this game. It seems like some people just super resent any frame that's not their favorite getting something nice.

I think you simply don't pay attention to nerfs and don't realize how much stuff is getting nerfed. Then again, maybe this is not an issue on PS4 where updates are rolled out together with nerfs already included.

"(Undocumented) Projectile does not inherit base critical chance and critical damage stats from equipped Zaw. Now has a fixed 20% critical chance and 2.0x critical multiplier. Projectile no longer explodes on final tick" - stealth nerf on Exodia Contagion from the wiki, just to show how ridicolous these nerfs can get.

Edit: It's not about fav frames getting the nerfs, it's about new fun stuff getting nerfed out of nowhere. Example: I had fun with MFD Ash, with Ash being far from my fav frames.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Xwograt

[(PSN)phelan_1988]

Just now, Xwograt said:

I think you simply don't pay attention to nerfs and don't realize how much stuff is getting nerfed. Then again, maybe this is not an issue on PS4 where updates are rolled out together with nerfs already included.

no no - by "cry for nerfs" I mean "ask DE to nerf things"

That being said I have noted before that sometimes the messed up silver lining of console means we never get the good versions of things in the first place. In the case of M4D the nerfs got announced just before I was about to infuse the ability on my Ash, so I didn't. Little did I know in this case the inverse of the usual would be true and we'd be keeping the original version for weeks because console updates have basically stopped.

[Aisu9]

Il y a 3 heures, Xwograt a dit :

Also also - latest Helminth Devstream was PAINFUL to watch.
"If every ability was good, then what do you do?

buff and change useless abilitys ?? or you can do AS alway we know and nerf everything usefull (you could also nerf Saryn's spore and miasma, Mesa's Peacemaker, Excalibur's exalted blade (SPAM EEEEEEEEEE) ... what you don't know Saryn is a room nuker frame ?? Excalibur ultimate is just a button mashing simulator)
We know buffing ability is hard, but it is really hard to give useless ability something unique that make them shine a bit ?

Also isn't this system suposed to be like "I have to remplace an ability to use this one" ? It should be so much better if player actualy have to think like this you know DE ? instead of "We all know this ability don't deserve to be on this frame because DE don't do anything to make it better"

Edited September 25, 2020 by Aisu9

[Xwograt]

1 minute ago, (PS4)phelan_1988 said:

no no - by "cry for nerfs" I mean "ask DE to nerf things"

That being said I have noted before that sometimes the messed up silver lining of console means we never get the good versions of things in the first place. In the case of M4D the nerfs got announced just before I was about to infuse the ability on my Ash, so I didn't. Little did I know in this case the inverse of the usual would be true and we'd be keeping the original version for weeks because console updates have basically stopped.

Sorry for misunderstanding in that case. Yeah, it sucks you don't get to experience new things right off the bat, but it's probably better this way since you don't suffer from nerf treatment every week or so.
Also f... people who want fun things nerfed just because they don' think its fun.

[Nasheim]

So, does MfD still cap at current enemy health instead of their maximum health? Because last time I checked it in the simulator after the big nerf, it did not do damage off the max health of anything I tried it on.

[Noel_Woodsoul]

Hold up...

The fact that the maximum damage is being increased is a good thing, but am I reading it correctly if I read that having less than 115% ability strength on the frame you use this ability on will mean they're nerfing it even further?

If the default will now be 65% damage transferred, that will mean we need 115% ability strength before we even bypass the previous cap of 75% from the hard nerf that infuriatied everyone.

That's still gonna be a slap in the face to the low-strength finisher-frames that I liked to use this ability on to make them more viable, such as Night-form Equinox Prime and Fatal Teleport Ash Prime.

The only frame I put this ability on that's actually gonna benefit from this change rather than get nerfed even further into obscurity is my Umbral Inaros Prime. A frame that's already popular.

I beg you to reconsider. If the original design was too overwhelming, please at least let overkill damage be transferred and lower the range to compensate so that this ability won't just be another buff for high ability strength frames that don't need the help.

Edit since I'm dumb: Apparently the ability is currently even weaker than I thought, starting at 50% rather than the cap of 75%.
Scratching most of what I said, rather than delete the post entirely since I feel like the essense of my frustration is still there... Namely that this is just another tool for frames that benefit from strength, giving no good options to frames that specialize in range and/or duration-based abilities.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Noel_Woodsoul

[lnfine]

18 часов назад, [DE]Marcus сказал:

Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision. 

I think this envisioning is broken ATM, since DOT damage calculation is borked. Or, rather, is near useless on MfD.

What apparently happens right now is when you, say, use a rapier heavy attack with a forced slash proc on the marked target, the resulting slash proc gets multiplied by 0.75 (or whatever max HP shenanigans) , then by the target DR due to armour, and then the resulting damage gets dealt as the AoE DOT.

Meaning the supposed Heavy Gunner in a crowd of trash is actually the worst target to proc off. The resulting AoE slash proc from a lvl100 Corrupted Heavy Gunner would deal about 3% of the damage the original slash proc is dealing to the heavy gunner itself. Even to a butcher next to it. It just tickles.

Currently the best targets to spread DoTs off are actually targets with the lowest armour. That just so happen to simply lack max health for any noticeable resulting damage (still better than HG though).

The end result is, only corpus and toxin are even worth considering for DoT spreading strategy. Provided you could find a weapon that guarantees toxin status on a single big hit. Daikyu kinda works, but you have to pray you proc tox, not phys.

 

EDIT:

I just tested. Given a lvl 145 corrupted butcher, corrupted heavy gunner and a test destreza prime, when slash on target deals 1178 DMG, AoE slash deals 68 DMG if you proc it off CHG and 991 DMG if you proc it off the butcher. This is completely backwards to the stated intent that you should use the fattest target as a primer.

Edited September 25, 2020 by lnfine
additional info

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Remove the damage cap on enemy health modifier, then we’ll see any progression with Marked for Death. Otherwise it doesn’t matter how much dressing or make-up you apply to the damage output with this unfortunate cap: It’s restricted to the afflicted enemy target’s health and will expend AoE damage based on that health.

This alone already restricts how the ability is utilized. And it affects deeply for Ash’s Fatal Teleport which is a single target ability, whereas certain augments that increase the finisher damage modifier are generated in an AoE. And even then, why use Finishers any more with MfD when the approach now is enforced by Heavy Attacks with guaranteed Bleed procs with a slight sprinkling of Viral procs? This is what we’ve adapted to after the heavy nerfs, but it became restricted to this way of utilizing Marked for Death when the core philosophy in Warframe had always been about diverse builds/setups/gameplay.

So please, remove the damage cap on enemy health modifier. It is restrictive and wholly unnecessary.

[AlphaBankai]

if you thought slash was the only relevant ips damage type before just wait for this update to come out.

Look, I get it, the ability was LEGIT bugged as it came out, the Arcane Trickster proccing off of every enemy and double mod dip and all that. But capping the damage to enemy health pool is still the issue guys, it enforces yet ANOTHER Slash META, which I thought you guys were trying to dissolve with all the "avoidance of 'do it this way or you are doing it wrong'" spiel you guys thought was causing an overuse of the XORIS when that came out and everyone was having fun with its quality of life bonuses as designed.  Reminder that the weapon in case underperformed damage-wise when compared to some five dozen weapons, so you really were only using it because it was 1) NEW Exciting content  and  2) Easier on the fingers for non-macro users.  But I guess that sort of data doesn't come across clearly on bar charts does it?

Current M4D and THIS version of M4D will STILL have the problem of "either use a Slash procc attack or its useless". Literally why spend the energy casting it if you aren't using a heavy attack scythe or Rapier Finisher (that procs 400% slash); Keep in mind that Slash+ Viral is already the meta for EVERY. SINGLE. WEAPON. CATEGORY. IN THE GAME. Where's THAT stat rebalance? No, just nerfing quality of life and variety? Pushing players to a single playstyle? We AREN'T supposed to have new ways to have fun on an update? Oh, okay...

Remember how original M4D managed to make finisher builds useful again? People were using hammers again in VERY NICHE but effective builds, diversifying people's playstyles. Where's THAT data chart at? Or, since I guess the change was so minimal, maybe a 1% shift in weapon usage you couldn't get big enough bars to interpret your community's behaviour without getting shouted at and chewed on for a week or so? But if so, then why call it an overwhemingly powerful ability? Its already behind the Helminth System, for experienced players, locked behind a wall of resource intensive investments, its only useful on frames that CAN'T already nuke a room with a single button. It actually requires a specific build to make it work. Just... please, try to justify yourselves better taking these details into consideration. Content can't be boxed like this, analyzed after compartmentalization from the entire game's system and from previous over-nerfing mistakes. The community isn't forgetting and you guys are draining everyone's patience. You guys are obviously watching those EASY RED CRIT BUILDS, so why aren't you noticing that basically everyone playing the game doing those videos sounds like they are #*!%ing dead inside? Maybe notice that too from time to time.

 

Cheers,

Edited September 25, 2020 by AlphaBankai

[(PSN)nmt140]

Okay, but could you guys at least look at Ash again and help him have a better kit? Currently he's really lacking in CC and team utility, and relies on augments heavily, although augments should be optional.

[Xepthrichros]

19 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

We are changing Marked for Death to start its base damage at 65%, which will cap at 150% with Mods.  Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision

So equipment that force slash procs and related things are features eh. You all better not go back on your word with some UnInTeNdEd InTeRaCtIOn again after this.

[Pendragon1951]

16 hours ago, (PS4)isbergen said:

Toxic Lash aug + mod for strength & range (like always) and throw in Miasma every once in a while. She slays at any level.

ok i'll try that, hey here is something to try tsela servos+tesla bank+Limbo's Cataclysm on Corpus and Invested does almost the same thing as M4D, try it before the nerf police find out and nerf it lol:)

[WMan22]

Thank you sincerely for buffing a helminth ability even if you did nerf it first, we need more buffs in general for certain helminth abilities before DE starts worrying about further nerfs. Thus far you guys have said you were gonna buff abilities for helminth, and we got a buff to well of life and zephyr's airburst, which is great! But those were two abilities that were buffed while we got around 9 nerfs for the helminth variants of abilities. Now 8 and a half nerfs technically, since MFD is being restored somewhat. That is progress, I'll take it.

Just please, keep the buffs coming.

Edited September 25, 2020 by WMan22

[Lionidor]

BUFF THE WEAK!!!

Spread the word, this is the solution for Helminth. Don't need to make them the next best, just competitive (or maybe making some frames relevant again, like with MFD).

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

On 2020-09-24 at 7:31 PM, [DE]Marcus said:

We are changing Marked for Death to start its base damage at 75%, which will cap at 150% with Mods.  Since the ‘Damage Type In = Damage Type Out’, this will scale well with certain damage types, specifically ones with DOTS s which is what we envision. 

I want to say what i think would make marked for death OK, and what i think is bad about what you 'DE' have said about marked for death. And for the love of god PLEASE understand that if i didnt care about warframe and its future i wouldnt spend this much time typing to you. If i didn't care i would just post a bit**y review, then i would go play other games.

1st - having the damage cap be the enemies current health+shields instead of max health+shields means that if any of your allies even farts in the general direction of your target they loose all their damage potential and may not even kill fodder enemies let alone get close to killing relevant enemies. --- this is also why marked for death wasn't OP in terms of kill rate in its original form, your allies would just kill the enemies around you before you had a chance to combo, quite easy to do since mark doesnt hit through walls.

Note - i do think it was OP in its original state, but NOT for the amount of dmg (as the kill rate was low and didnt go thru walls). It was OP because of how it could be used to eliminate special enemies that could otherwise be challenging to kill.( e.g. liches, imo liches are easy to kill anyway, just too rare of a spawn)

2nd - why force people to use DOTs for mark, its just a less fun way of insta killing, all you are doing is forcing us to wait JUST 1 extra second for the slash proc to tick and insta kill enemies that way. that 1 second extra for killing is irrelevant as its proportionally not much when compared to the setup time.

3rd - why are you forcing people to use heavy attack melee weapons with forces slash procs, that is the only way to reliably get a strong enough DOT to kill enemies, normal atk slash procs and procs from primaries and secondaries are too unreliable, or too unreliable AND too weak to kill. Even if it could 1 shot everything in game at any level, if its unreliable its worthless due to the time it takes to set up and not being allowed to retry if it fails.

 

In the Marked for death nerf post you said it was overwhealmingly over powered one shotting left and right, and that you'd never invisioned it 1 shotting enemies the way it was.

1 - it wasnt 'overwhealming' i dont think i saw anyone running it in missions even in its OP state because its too slow and doesnt go thru walls, it was slower at killing crowd that just spraying&praying into a croud or meleeeing thru a croud. so it just WASNT killing left right and center because in the time it took you to find a target and cast mark, every enemy in range would already be dead from allies dmg. and some of the time even the enemy you wanted to target. (this part is from personal experience trying to get builds that would do decent dmg in missions with other people NOT SOLO)

note - SOLO was the ONLY place where you could even one shot 'left right and centre' ask anyone who tried making an ESO build, all the dps frames just prevent marked for death from being relevant there, about 50% of that being down to not damaging thru walls.

2 - why are you against it instakilling enemies but, are all for instakilling enemies on a 1 second timer. - Certain weapons (heavy melee) can get DOTs high enough to 1 shot, and that currently the only way yo make the ability RELEVENT (not even strong, just relevant) thus the only difference between letting the initial explosion kill and the status kill is that 1 second dmg tick delay.

 

A message to DE balance team, (and 'main' devs, ie Steve, Scott etc.)

(please stop trying to force your own meta onto us and forcing players into playstyles they may not even find fun (ie heavy melee to make marked for death relevant and not useless), balance as need be to keep everything between C tier and A tier (S tier can be nerfed and D and bellow buffed etc (D tier and bellow is unaceptably trash))  and when you do balance changes, please do them over the course of several patches like MOBAs do, it makes it much easier to hit the mark without over-nerfing OR over-buffing as you are incrementing <-- this would really make sense considering WE (PC) are your testers)

Hello, please actually play your game (more than just testing if code works) (without dev tools/account) so you understand how it works on a deeper level. When you balance without understanding the game you are balancing around new players, who shouldnt be able to do the content as they just dont have the equipment or knowlage to do said content. If you balanced around the established player (someone with several frames and weapons, some prime mods AND most importanly knowlage about how to mod and synergise) then suddenly the game wouldnt be as easy to go thru as 'wet tissue-paper' and you wouldnt run into 'issues' (only in your eyes, not the players).

And as a bonus, if you played and understood the game, you wouldn't run into issues like 'unintended interaction' as you would know a what could break a mechanic and you'd know the handful of abilities that that could be abused (tho its really not abusing in most cases so chill out with NERFs). And you would know when an ability feels aweful to use, eg release state Xaku and the current 5 year long cast time on the 3rd ability. (that is currently what i consider to be why Xaku is weak: excesivley long cast times and being locked in place if im not aimgliding (because of the stat requirements for Xaku's abilities you cant even fit natural talent, and it feels wasteful for just 1 problematic ability) )

 

Sorry if i come of as toxic or salty, I like many others am just tired of you kneejerk nerfing things into the ground (or stealth nerfing, those make me angry, not just annoyed) when there is no need to nerf them that hard or in some cases nerf them at all. (ps about your stealth contagion nerf, you only needed to fix combo mods and warframe buffs appling twice (which you did. intentionally or not.) not nerf the stats and mechanics into the ground on top of that)

 

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Edited September 25, 2020 by CephalonLewd

[Roble_Viejo]

I just want to have other option guys... 

78% of the content is lackluster. We really need some buffs. 

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

I just want to have other option guys... 

78% of the content is lackluster. We really need some buffs. 

Im assuming you are talking about helminth abilities. and i agree with the part about buffs being needed but its not 78%, sure it may be that much if you generalise, but some of those lackluster abilities may have a build for which they are amazing. I'm not going to mention any, because DE has gotten even more trigger happy with nerfs, but i will say that a content creator who knows how to play well said that a certain ability is S#&amp;&#036; and should never be picked over another i found a build in which it increases my damage output more than 2x and there is at least another use of it where nothing else fits that purpose and allows for a build that otherwise would be impossible, not just worse.

I would say yes we could do with some more UNIQUE options to be viable (by this i'm saying shock smite nourish count as 1 ability in terms of unique options).
BUT i dont think every frame should give an ability in a state where its useable on every frame, a large portion of the abilities SHOULD stay as 'ehh' options for many frames, but be an A tier synergy for a few. But 'ehh' is the minimum no ability should be garbage

keep in mind ive subsumed ~60% of the abilities, and I'se seen builds and/or theorycrafted with the remaining abilities. (with reave being the only one ive not bothered thinking about)

The abilities i think are actually useless/'lackluster' are:
- Terrify (trash)
- Tempest Barrage (trash)
- Mind Control (trash AI)
- Airburst (trash)
- decoy (trash, outside of Ash who can 3 onto it)
- Banish (lackluster, 1 good synergy, useful for defending objective, trash otherwise)
- Desiccation (trash, uselessly weak 'life-steal', REALLY S#&amp;&#036;ty version of Rblind)
- Reave (lackluster without thralls, not that great of a movement ability, but i bet there is some weird build that makes good use of it)
- Blood alter (lackluster, only use is health tanking with inaros/nidus but we all know how 'good' that is)(note for DE: health tanking is not very good)

Would be nice if you could use Banish on yourself, but i see why DE is 'hesitant' considering some of the REALLY ancient metas.

 

(edit bellow)

ALSO, DE, the reason people are using Roar so much ISN'T because its the best ability, (its FAR from being the best), its just the most consistent as any frame can use it for decent effect as it doesn't need to synergise with other abilities. AND because of the resource cost on infusions, players without stupid amounts of resources dont have the freedom to experiment thus they choose Roar because its safe and isnt wasting resources (ie trying 20 abilities before finding the one you like, wasting 19 infusions worth of resources in the process). And those more farmed players subsumed roar because they know its a decent consistent ability so they unlock it before they unlock a niche ability that takes time to think of a synergy for.

Edited September 25, 2020 by CephalonLewd

[IamLoco]

2 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

I just want to have other option guys... 

78% of the content is lackluster. We really need some buffs. 

More than 70% of the population doesn´t understand how percentage calculation works and the other half is too lazy to do the maths.

78% of content is lackluster? There isn´t that much content in the game!

/irony

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

5 hours ago, (PS4)nmt140 said:

Okay, but could you guys at least look at Ash again and help him have a better kit? Currently he's really lacking in CC and team utility, and relies on augments heavily, although augments should be optional.

I agree that ash needs a look at, but why does he need cc and team utility (he technically has this with invis and shuriken augment, but you dont like those). Ash is about being an invisible assassin, and he is a good one at that 100% armour removal and amplified bleed procs shred even the toughest of enemies in no time at all (eg demolysts).

And if you want CC and utility on ash, USE THE HELMINTH. ill give you a build too. Radial blind, has CC and if you use the augment you can more than triple your damage with his 4. you can even replace fatal teleport for it, as it allows finishers and lets you keep shuriken(if you want to use aug for armour strip) and invis.

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

14 minutes ago, IamLoco said:

There isn´t that much content in the game!

'Warframe is as vast as an ocean, but as shallow as a puddle'

ther is A LOT of content, its just all throw at you at once instead of being spread out across your time playing, which makes burning out/overwhelming very easy for new players.

the main issue is that there isnt enough linking between the 'pools' of content. e.g. Railjack and Liches, they 'said' that liches would be part of railjack but they arent. cba listing other examples. however having resource costs for new content to use different contents resources DOESN'T COUNT as linking content. Ashisogi Tenno had a good stream VOD talking about this, just search the ocean quote on youtube/his channel.

if content was linked, then it would encourage the player passively to play other content, reducing the risk of burnout, inceasing the percieved amount of content and PLAYER RETENTION. (that last one is mainly for DE)

Edited September 25, 2020 by CephalonLewd

[IamLoco]

10 hours ago, CephalonLewd said:

'Warframe is as vast as an ocean, but as shallow as a puddle'

ther is A LOT of content, its just all throw at you at once instead of being spread out across your time playing, which makes burning out/overwhelming very easy for new players.

the main issue is that there isnt enough linking between the 'pools' of content. e.g. Railjack and Liches, they 'said' that liches would be part of railjack but they arent. cba listing other examples. however having resource costs for new content to use different contents resources DOESN'T COUNT as linking content. Ashisogi Tenno had a good stream VOD talking about this, just search the ocean quote on youtube/his channel.

if content was linked, then it would encourage the player passively to play other content, reducing the risk of burnout, inceasing the percieved amount of content and PLAYER RETENTION. (that last one is mainly for DE)

You completely ripped that sentence out of context, which, by the way, was already signed with an "Irony OFF" tag.