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PSA: Warframe DirectX 10 Support Ended


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10 hours ago, Rottert said:

I've been playing since the very beginning. Got on board with a beta key and never lefted. I got along with dx9 support discontinuing. And kept playing. I got along with open world  features on 12 fps... Freakin' optimization. I got along with a lot of Features. And now you inform me guys I won't be able to keep my tenno journey just because I don't have freakin' money to buy a new graphic card. That's awesome. Warframe was the last playable game for me(for a long period of time), and now the journey ends. I have one more year, but it's not a big deal. I'm sad. I'm confused. That's all what I feel now. I made a lot of neofit guys succeed on their first steps on their tenno path. Helped a lot of people. Enjoyed the community. I know it sounds like an old person tearing complaining, but that's all i have left now.RIP.

 

9 hours ago, LadyRebecca said:

If the needs of this game outway what i can afford in this pandemic etc, then i will have to stop playing and lose all the money and hours spent on it.  Its a shame but im not spending hundreds just for a game when that has more important uses.  DE should be aware people are struggling and keep specs within realistic paramters IMO

 

How much money are we talking about? I can understand if you have laptop that is nearly impossible to upgrade 99% of the time, but if you have standalone PC, upgrading graphics card is non-issue at all.

Even Fermi cards (Nvidia  400 and 500 series) from 2010 have DirectX 11 support (and even DX12 if reports are true). And those cards are definitely not enough for Warframe nowadays. 
Just research the aftermarket and grab yourself some cheap old card if you can't afford a new one. Geforce 660 GTX runs perfectly for me and I still considered buying Radeon RX580 for 40$ (after mining) for some improvement - that is affordable. 

I mean how can you complain that the game has "12 fps in open world" while running it on pre-2010 GPU in 2020? Maybe it's time to accept the reality and make an upgrade (a budget one at least - I've bought 6-core Ivy Bridge Xeon + modern motherboard for it + 16GB ram for only 90$ in February) or switch to playing less demanding games?

Edited by Javrendei
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8 hours ago, Asdryu said:

Honestly I remember something like that a couple of years ago for direct X9 and quite frankly I still don't see many improvements (on the contrary almost).

Dunno about directx 10 since it's still kicking for a lot of games but whatever

 

You don't see improvements? 

The game basically went from a game that looks like 2014 area to a game that can keep up with AAA Titels (aside from current light bugs) in the last 2 years.

If you don't see improvement, I suggest you set your settings higher. 

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On 2020-09-25 at 1:37 PM, -FrutyX- said:

Yea, I mean .... nobody can expect to play "modern" games with only DX10, so I don't think that's a big deal.

I am very excited when devs say "Optimizations", there are many devs that completely don't care about optimizations in their games, all they care about are skins, batlepass stuff and any other ways how to make money, meanwhile their games are running terribly, yet they still make money, sad.

Optimizations always first !

GIRHUu9.jpg

You haven't played warframe in a long time have you.

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On 2020-09-25 at 5:27 PM, OniDax said:

I second the second part. I'd really like to see Vulkan support added to PC after DX12.

if it was deemed practical to rewrite under Vulkan, adopting the next iteration of DirectX would be not only superfluous, but a total waste of time. if DirectX is being built up, Vulkan may as well not be on the table.

On 2020-09-25 at 7:02 PM, Misangelic said:

+1 for this. Considering the FPS boost it can give, I'm really surprised (read dismayed) to see that it hasn't been implemented in more games than it has.

there's so few games written for Vulkan because it's a huge undertaking - for any game that's already deployed it means rewriting the game from the ground up - and in a much more complicated fashion.
the number of Programmers that have the expertise to write games under Vulkan can almost be counted on your fingers and toes - it's very difficult to do. that's why you haven't seen it much.

On 2020-09-26 at 2:21 PM, Javrendei said:

Even Fermi cards (Nvidia  400 and 500 series) from 2010 have DirectX 11 support (and even DX12 if reports are true). And those cards are definitely not enough for Warframe nowadays. 
Just research the aftermarket and grab yourself some cheap old card if you can't afford a new one. Geforce 660 GTX runs perfectly for me and I still considered buying Radeon RX580 for 40$ (after mining) for some improvement - that is affordable. 

I mean how can you complain that the game has "12 fps in open world" while running it on pre-2010 GPU in 2020? Maybe it's time to accept the reality and make an upgrade (a budget one at least - I've bought 6-core Ivy Bridge Xeon + modern motherboard for it + 16GB ram for only 90$ in February) or switch to playing less demanding games?

GTX 400,500,600,700 supports DirectX 12 theoretically, but only at a feature level of 11.0. which means as long as you didn't implement methods that are new/unique to DirectX 12, it would still be compatible.

GTX 900 supports DirectX 12 at a feature level of 12.1 - so full compatibility.

which in comparison for AMD full DirectX 12 (feature level 12.0) support was introduced partway through the lifecycle of R9 200. R7 did not have support, and R9 200 models that were introduced late in the life cycle did, while earlier ones did not. (that being the R9 285 and 290 being the first models with full DirectX 12 support)

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4 hours ago, taiiat said:

if it was deemed practical to rewrite under Vulkan, adopting the next iteration of DirectX would be not only superfluous, but a total waste of time. if DirectX is being built up, Vulkan may as well not be on the table.

there's so few games written for Vulkan because it's a huge undertaking - for any game that's already deployed it means rewriting the game from the ground up - and in a much more complicated fashion.
the number of Programmers that have the expertise to write games under Vulkan can almost be counted on your fingers and toes - it's very difficult to do. that's why you haven't seen it much.

GTX 400,500,600,700 supports DirectX 12 theoretically, but only at a feature level of 11.0. which means as long as you didn't implement methods that are new/unique to DirectX 12, it would still be compatible.

GTX 900 supports DirectX 12 at a feature level of 12.1 - so full compatibility.

which in comparison for AMD full DirectX 12 (feature level 12.0) support was introduced partway through the lifecycle of R9 200. R7 did not have support, and R9 200 models that were introduced late in the life cycle did, while earlier ones did not. (that being the R9 285 and 290 being the first models with full DirectX 12 support)

I just know from experience with a game that runs on both DX and Vulkan that the Vulkan version runs better. Ubisoft recently did that for GR Breakpoint and it runs so much better than the DX version. I don't know if DX12 will fix the issues that DX11 has. I hope it does. But I know Vulkan is an improvement over DX11 and others do as well. That's why we'd like to see Warframe have a Vulkan version.

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This is an excuse that doesn't stick anymore ... use your creativity. The game itself didn't improve at all with the end of support for Windows XP .... on the contrary. Things remain the same. Will it change only to have some effects that nobody cares about? You at DE are disappointing more every day ... you worry too much about cosmetics and the content that is the most important part, do not give any importance .....

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On 2020-09-26 at 10:33 AM, Rottert said:

I've been playing since the very beginning. Got on board with a beta key and never lefted. I got along with dx9 support discontinuing. And kept playing. I got along with open world  features on 12 fps... Freakin' optimization. I got along with a lot of Features. And now you inform me guys I won't be able to keep my tenno journey just because I don't have freakin' money to buy a new graphic card. That's awesome. Warframe was the last playable game for me(for a long period of time), and now the journey ends. I have one more year, but it's not a big deal. I'm sad. I'm confused. That's all what I feel now. I made a lot of neofit guys succeed on their first steps on their tenno path. Helped a lot of people. Enjoyed the community. I know it sounds like an old person tearing complaining, but that's all i have left now.RIP.

What's your current system Specs? Motherboard + GPU specifically.

 

1 hour ago, Luciole77 said:

This is an excuse that doesn't stick anymore ... use your creativity. The game itself didn't improve at all with the end of support for Windows XP .... on the contrary. Things remain the same. Will it change only to have some effects that nobody cares about? You at DE are disappointing more every day ... you worry too much about cosmetics and the content that is the most important part, do not give any importance .....

Dropping support for end-of-life OSs and APIs, removes the need of supporting low population and possibly unsafe branches of their product, which opens up resources to be spent elsewhere, like Deferred Rendering and DX12. Like it or not, visuals attract players, and players is what keep games alive. And DX12 is more than just better visuals, as it also entails better performance for higher core/thread systems.
And no, these "resources" can't be moved over to Gameplay Systems' Design and Implementation, because they're people whose job and expertise is to work on the Engine.

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On 2020-09-26 at 10:18 AM, LadyRebecca said:

If the needs of this game outway what i can afford in this pandemic etc, then i will have to stop playing and lose all the money and hours spent on it.  Its a shame but im not spending hundreds just for a game when that has more important uses.  DE should be aware people are struggling and keep specs within realistic paramters IMO

DX11 came out in 2009... If you can't run a 2009 spec, don't blame the pandemic.
DX12 came out 5 years ago, even. I mean, maybe wrong excuse, just saying. And honestly. If you're complaining about this, likely you're not the biggest splurge in Warframe, i mean come on... If you can't afford a 5 years ago rig...

Edited by ReaverKane
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Am 25.9.2020 um 22:02 schrieb [DE]Helen:

Changes are coming to Warframe’s Minimum Supported Specs that will affect Tenno running DirectX 10. We hope to give you as much notice as possible!

In 2018, we announced that Warframe’s minimum supported specs were changing with an aim to make full use of the robust capabilities offered by DirectX 11. We want to make sure Warframe’s development is never limited, especially when we consider future DirectX versions. Adding visual features like Deferred Rendering to our ever-evolving game and supporting new optimizations are possible because of these changes!

On top of development and quality motivations, we want to make sure Warframe is stable and secure for players. Graphics-card manufacturers have long-since discontinued driver-updates for DirectX 10-class cards as they focus on more modern hardware. Systems that are up-to-date and supported by the companies that make them meet our security needs.

To these ends, Warframe will be ending DirectX 10 support in January 2021. We’ll continue to keep you posted as we approach this change!

So does it mean, the ugly desatorated colors are gone then? Or the still not properly working lighting on some tile sets with forced exposure mode on?

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On 2020-09-27 at 9:00 PM, OniDax said:

I just know from experience with a game that runs on both DX and Vulkan that the Vulkan version runs better.

yes, it's always the best choice but it also means rewriting a game from the ground up (essentially zero compatibility with anything you're written for DirectX) and very few people in the world are able to do it in the first place.

just pointing out that if rewriting for Vulkan was practical, you probably wouldn't bother with newer DirectX support because Vulkan is compatible with basically anything on any Platform, so spending the time on something else would be a total waste of your own time.

 

but, only time can tell.

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12 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

DX12 came out 5 years ago, even. I mean, maybe wrong excuse, just saying. And honestly. If you're complaining about this, likely you're not the biggest splurge in Warframe, i mean come on... If you can't afford a 5 years ago rig...

Or, that their hardware is perfectly capable but they have no intention of suffering a Win10 infection.

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8 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes, it's always the best choice but it also means rewriting a game from the ground up (essentially zero compatibility with anything you're written for DirectX) and very few people in the world are able to do it in the first place.

just pointing out that if rewriting for Vulkan was practical, you probably wouldn't bother with newer DirectX support because Vulkan is compatible with basically anything on any Platform, so spending the time on something else would be a total waste of your own time.

There is little difference between DX12 and Vulkan (since they are both based on Mantle). So if Vulkan mean to rewrite a game from the ground, DX12 mean to rewrite a game from the ground too. I've a strong doubt about that.

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2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Or, that their hardware is perfectly capable but they have no intention of suffering a Win10 infection.

Ah, "Win 10 infection".

Brought by creators of "Win7 is cancer, I'll stay on my Win XP till the end!" and "Win98 is totally enough for me, I don't need your weird XP"

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36 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

Ah, "Win 10 infection".

Brought by creators of "Win7 is cancer, I'll stay on my Win XP till the end!" and "Win98 is totally enough for me, I don't need your weird XP"

Win7 has its pluses and minuses compared to XP. The core is more stable and its 64-bit support is far more developed, but I find the UI to be much worse (compare the control panel and the file copy dialogue box).

Win98? I kept that around for some games that never ran well on XP, but it didn't stick around long for me after XP. The advantage of NTFS over FAT32 alone (a journaling filesystem, vastly more resilient against unexpected shutdowns) was enough to make things worthwhile.

Win10? That's flat out spyware, it takes control away from me (this is my computer, I bought and assembled it, I will not have someone else taking control over it) and it was pushed on to people's computers using tactics which are found in the kind of windows that pop up saying "YOU HAEV A VIRUS!!!1!". Sure, the kernel has seen some strong improvements, but it does not outweigh the negatives.

DirectX 12? That is quite capable of operating on Win7. The only reason it isn't doing so right now is because MS never bothered to make a version for Win7 or 8.1. Vulkan, which offers pretty much the same capabilities (low-level and low-overhead hardware access), works perfectly fine on Win7. No Man's Sky and X4: Foundations show that quite handily. DirectX has a long history of upgrades inside the same Windows version - Win98 started with DirectX 6 and finished with 9.0c (and I still have that installer saved here in my archives).

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27 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Win10? That's flat out spyware

My point still stands. People will invent any excuse to delay OS upgrade (they will upgrade anyway, sooner or later, and then they forget about all that nonsense they posted).
That "flat out spyware" (aka telemetry, geolocation and tracking) you mentioned, is fully disabled by any of dedicated tools (like O&O Shut Up and others) in few mouse clicks or by tweaking group policy.
Oh by the way, Windows 7 received those telemetry and tracking updates too, but conspiracy theorists prefer to ignore that fact. You will spend about the same amount of time (maybe more) to disable telemetry services in Win7, but it's Win10 suddenly a "flat out spyware".

ps: I hope you don't use any Android or iOS device too and communicate only by sending coded written notes by pigeons (only trusted, non-spy pigeons!). Otherwise any complaint about tracking and privacy is kind of pointless.

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5 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

My point still stands. People will invent any excuse to delay OS upgrade (they will upgrade anyway, sooner or later, and then they forget about all that nonsense they posted).
That "flat out spyware" (aka telemetry, geolocation and tracking) you mentioned, is fully disabled by any of dedicated tools (like O&O Shut Up and others) in few mouse clicks or by tweaking group policy.
Oh by the way, Windows 7 received those telemetry and tracking updates too, but conspiracy theorists prefer to ignore that fact. You will spend about the same amount of time (maybe more) to disable telemetry services in Win7, but it's Win10 suddenly a "flat out spyware".

I never installed those updates. Again, I have control over my computer, why would I deliberately sabotage it? Also, why do you think it's justified that I should have to fight against my own computer to get control over it when I never had to do that before?

6 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

ps: I hope you don't use any Android or iOS device too and communicate only by sending coded written notes by pigeons (only trusted, non-spy pigeons!). Otherwise any complaint about tracking and privacy is kind of pointless.

My phone is a Samsung Galaxy S5 which was wiped immediately upon purchase and given LineageOS. It has no Google infection and its software comes only from the F-Droid repository. There's no tracking there - especially since I don't carry it around or even switch it on for most of the time.

I don't make it easy to be followed across the internet either. All cookies, javascript and third-party requests (such as "tracker pixels") are blocked unless explicitly whitelisted. The only Google anything that I touch would be fetching the occasional Youtube video with a downloader script (https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl) which leaves very little window for observation. It goes without saying that I have never once touched Facebook.

Pretty much all of my communication is done via ordinary e-mail. It's not encrypted and I know that you can see the routing information in the headers, but it is universally compatible and a relatively small window of exposure compared to whatever this week's social media platform is.

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15 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

I never installed those updates. Again, I have control over my computer, why would I deliberately sabotage it? Also, why do you think it's justified that I should have to fight against my own computer to get control over it when I never had to do that before?

So you deliberately using insecure OS that is open to vulnerabilities by opting-out from updates?
It's amazing how "Win10 tracking and spying" paranoia coexists with this mindset.

And how it is different from simply clearing Win10 from the same tracking features? "You don't understand, that is totally different!", huh?
 

Quote

My phone is a Samsung Galaxy S5 which was wiped immediately upon purchase and given LineageOS. It has no Google infection and its software comes only from the F-Droid repository. There's no tracking there - especially since I don't carry it around or even switch it on for most of the time.

..

Pretty much all of my communication is done via ordinary e-mail. It's not encrypted and I know that you can see the routing information in the headers, but it is universally compatible and a relatively small window of exposure compared to whatever this week's social media platform is.

I see, I see. Pigeons are still better. Don't dismiss them right away until you try - you never know who is reading your emails even at this moment. /s

Btw last time I checked, LineageOS (or any other custom firmware) for specific devices is usually maintained by one or two developers of unknown origin. So unless you manually check all commits and code they made, you are still in trouble. If you don't - enjoy your rootkits :)

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10 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

So you deliberately using insecure OS that is open to vulnerabilities by opting-out from updates?
It's amazing how "Win10 tracking and spying" paranoia coexists with this mindset.

And how it is different from simply clearing Win10 from the same tracking features? "You don't understand, that is totally different!", huh?

This mentality is like a choice between possible hepatitis and guaranteed HIV. I'll take the possibility of an infection (which first needs to get through my paranoid browsing habits, antivirus software, application-level firewall and me gutting useless bits of the OS like remote desktop to reduce the possible attack surface) over the guarantee of spyware built into the OS.

These "features" are not built into the OS for Win7 and 8.1. They are built into the very core with 10. I also have no choice in whether to use a particular update for Win10.

Again, I would be actively fighting my OS for as long as it's installed. I've seen enough reports of privacy features mysteriously deactivating themselves after an update and mandatory updates flat out breaking systems to stay well away. I have enough problems already without having to worry about what my computer is doing.

EDIT: and it's tracking updates that I didn't install. The others are fine. That's part of the control that you lose in Win10. The ability to pick and choose which updates you want and which of them you don't.

10 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

I see, I see. Pigeons are still better. Don't dismiss them right away until you try - you never know who is reading your emails even at this moment. /s

Pigeons are still vulnerable to the $&*^ Dastardly attack. Until I have a working defence against biplanes (and triplanes, and heptaplanes, etc.), I'll stick with what I know.

Edited by DoomFruit
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2 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

There is little difference between DX12 and Vulkan (since they are both based on Mantle). So if Vulkan mean to rewrite a game from the ground, DX12 mean to rewrite a game from the ground too. I've a strong doubt about that.

the differences between them are pretty major. DirectX 12 is still following the mantra of having a very guided approach to design/support, but giving a more direct access path to the Hardware.

Vulkan is the most direct path available but most importantly it's a complete DIY kit. you have to do everything yourself. with great benefit comes great cost, and all.

 

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

DirectX 12? That is quite capable of operating on Win7. The only reason it isn't doing so right now is because MS never bothered to make a version for Win7 or 8.1. Vulkan, which offers pretty much the same capabilities (low-level and low-overhead hardware access), works perfectly fine on Win7.

infact, Vulkan is completely cross compatible with any Operating System fundamentally since it doesn't interface with the Operating System hardly at all. you could run a game made in 2020 under Vulkan on a Windows 95 era machine aside from that there would be no Drivers to support it and the Hardware would be missing a lot of features that we take for granted nowadays. 
ultimately limited only by Hardware and Driver support.

 

 

 

 

- - - - - 

oooooof topic.

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Win98? I kept that around for some games that never ran well on XP, but it didn't stick around long for me after XP. The advantage of NTFS over FAT32 alone (a journaling filesystem, vastly more resilient against unexpected shutdowns) was enough to make things worthwhile.

not even to mention that we're all still using a derivative of NT today for a reason, because.... it's a far better Platform that we had anytime before it.

1 hour ago, Javrendei said:

Oh by the way, Windows 7 received those telemetry and tracking updates too

assuming that everyone installed them, which more technically inclined users would not have.

1 hour ago, Javrendei said:

ps: I hope you don't use any Android or iOS device

both of these mobile Operating Systems do a fairly acceptable job of Permission restricting Software access to all sorts of features without approval. 
with some manual adjustment then Permission restrictions can be even more effective, at the cost of convenience.

49 minutes ago, Javrendei said:

And how it is different from simply clearing Win10 from the same tracking features? "You don't understand, that is totally different!", huh?

the difference is that you can only mostly disable that in w10, not entirely. you can't just outright delete Cortana entirely (which is the Module that handles this data), it breaks the Operating System if you do.

plus the stability among other things is why my professional recommendation to people is to have two Computers so that there can be a w7 Workstation so that they can have something stable if nothing else as a backup for the w10 machine so that when it bricks itself temporarily once in a while or otherwise just doesn't operate in a fully usable fashion, one still has a system so that they can make a living instead of the blundering of big brother putting them into bankruptcy (or just losing their job or something) while they wait for the other system to be operable again.

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  • [DE]Helen changed the title to PSA: Warframe DirectX 10 Support Ended
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