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Did Frost need a rework??


Marill136

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His Snow Globe is his only defence and there's no realistic way for it to defend you while you're moving. Take one step outside it and you're about as weak as paper.

His 1 is pointless single target damage, his 2 is a mediocre slow that doesn't really accomplish anything.

His Snow Globe is has okay durability if you fully mod toward strength, but other than spamming Avalanche for the brief freeze, there's no CC or competitive AoE damage available to prevent enemies from nuking the Globe into pieces at higher levels. The invulnerability period on the Globe doesn't really help either, and adding Globes together is clunky and could be done much better when you consider what more modern Warframe design has achieved.

Overall, he's a one trick pony and his one trick is very situational with a lot of setup required to get results.

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2 hours ago, Marill136 said:

I love his 4th skill

I mean, that's the issue, right there. That's one ability.

Wouldn't it be cool (hah) if you loved ALL of his abilities? Because that's what a perfect rework would accomplish.

32 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

His Snow Globe is his only defence and there's no realistic way for it to defend you while you're moving. Take one step outside it and you're about as weak as paper.

Mass CC and Icy Avalanche let you - and your Squad - survive decently enough while on the move, I find.

36 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

other than spamming Avalanche for the brief freeze, there's no CC or competitive AoE damage available

I don't quite follow, you want damage + CC, you mention Avalanche which gives damage + CC,
but then you complain that not using Avalanche means you don't get damage + CC ... well, yeah? :D

(Maybe you meant to make a point - which I can get behind - that Avalanche's damage should scale in some way? I guess? dunno lol)

Also, you can use more Duration if the CC doesn't last long enough for you.

33 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

His Snow Globe is has okay durability if you fully mod toward strength

Mod for Efficiency instead.

You can stack Globe health, both via recasts and the invincibility / enemy-fire-absorbing periods, up to 1 million or so.

39 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

The invulnerability period on the Globe doesn't really help either

Disagree. Enemy fire making your Globe health scale is working pretty well,
you can even Zenurik-regen enough Energy to keep recasts and thus your Globe up indefinitely.

40 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

adding Globes together is clunky

You simply cast the ability while inside a Globe. What's the issue with that?

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2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

He is one of the last frames that need one...

So, yes, he does.

I am getting mixed signals here...

25 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Wouldn't it be cool (hah) if you loved ALL of his abilities?

Why do I feel like the only pearson who likes Ice Wave...
...And also the only pearson who is replacing Globe across all Frost builds (I simply don't have all the abilities I want to infuse yet)

PS: As for Freeze, I remember a long time ago somewhere on the forums, I made a suggestion for corrupted mod-like augments. Someting like one that turns it into a shotgun blast and one that turns it into a big icicle; which looses the freeze effect, but gains damage and punch-through, or something... Can't recall further specifics.
PS2: Must have been before abilities like Quiver were invented, could try something like that, the cycle part I mean.

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for the 99%, Snowglobe is Frosts' only Ability and it's only for standing around in semi-AFK'ing. they don't have the creativity to see the great use the Ice Wave can have (though might as well merge the Augment into the Ability with the amount of stuff that new Abilities for new Warframes get to do without using Augments), and similarly won't apply Avalanche very well.

this will be Players that expect everything to autokill Enemies or make them invulnerable wanting everything to do that since the Players of this game have almost forever been complaining when things are too different from one another, that they need to be all the same. and if they get that they'll then less loudly grumble that everything is the same.

 

if we had the one Augment Slot that we kinda need because Digital Extremes refuses to consistently make Augments useful (and instead about 33/33/33 split of totally useless, kinda useful but often questionable to spend a Slot on, and if you're not using this you're literally playing the game wrong) then Freeze would have a decent Damage buff, good for within the content that 99% of Players will be playing (i.e. not Endurance but useful enough for the Solar Map and Steel Path).

 

a stark contrast to the top 1% Players that have been using Frost in most of the Events there ever have been in the game to set World Records.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

but other than spamming Avalanche for the brief freeze, there's no CC or competitive AoE damage available to prevent enemies from nuking the Globe into pieces at higher levels.

spamming Avalanche is not where Frosts' Damage comes from. try experimenting with the Abilities again. 

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

His Snow Globe is has okay durability if you fully mod toward strength

sorry, trying to push lots of Strength into Slowglobe is a strategy for exclusively low Level Enemies, and it always has been ever since the absorb phase was added to the Ability.

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

adding Globes together is clunky

i can't possibly imagine how. if you mean merging multiple Snowglobes that are not near each other, well, okay, but then why did you place them so far apart from each other and then suddenly change your mind that you want to merge them.

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Overall, he's a one trick pony

a lot of setup required 

Frost has never been a Warframe with only one feature.
and the features Frost does have have some of the lowest setup required of any Warframe in the game.

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The problem with Frost is the same as with Ember and Saryn before her rework, you need a bit creativity to use the abilites and understand the mechnaics, that is why DE will probablly rework him to a frame that is just a brain dead and broing as the Ember and Saryn reworks.

Frost has tons of CC(hard CC, what is rare), scalable defence, a anti armor ability and a damage buff, plus the ability to create choke points on the map at high levels, what is incredible good to have as a package.

What Frost really needs is a actual display of all his globes on the map, seperate HP indicators in the UI for the globes as well a rework of the globe HP mechanic. Preferably adding the damage done to the globe as HP by recasting globe inside and adding the HP of units that die under the effect of a cold proc to the globe HP.

Oh and DE actually putting minimal effort into her spawning mechanic of corrupted units in fissures and stop spawning nullifiers right on defence targets inside your snow globes. 🤮

Add at least 30m of space between the spawns and the defence targets, the code is allready in the game for the focus boosters hat actually should spawn right on the defence targets, instead of 30-100m away, where you can not get them without losing your defence target.

 

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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

this will be Players that expect everything to autokill Enemies or make them invulnerable wanting everything to do that since the Players of this game have almost forever been complaining when things are too different from one another, that they need to be all the same. and if they get that they'll then less loudly grumble that everything is the same.

Oof.

12 hours ago, Marill136 said:

I wonder why

While Frost absolutely needs a touch-up, I must say it seems to me that the bigger part of the "proposed reworks" are just random submissions asking to turn the Warframe into their own fantasy, very often not regarding, adressing or thinking about the actual issues a Warframe really has to deal with, Frost happens to be one of the oldest and people seem to use that as the biggest reason of why they choose to look onto him.

Anyhow, Frost, in my opinion doesn't need a Rework(changing his entire kit and "core" gameplay), he could certainly use a Ability and Passive revisit, with that I mean a touchup to his currently existing abilities and perhaps actually change or add to the Passive since passives are arguably the most disregarded and niche things.

What is wrong with his kit? To be completely honest, I am by no mean a Frost expert, so I don't know what issues creep on Ice Wave, Snow Globe or Avalanche, but I am 100% convinced that Freeze needs a major touch-up, from projectile speed to hitbox or it's actual use altogether. I know it leaves a small, low duration freeze(slow) effect on the ground it impacts but it's actual freeze effect when hitting an enemy is very lacking.

In Short, these questions simplify my thought towards Freeze:
-Why would you ever Freeze a single enemy when you can just Avalanche?
-Why would you try to snipe-freeze a single enemy from AFAR when the projectile is so tiny it's almost always going to miss?

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Before nuking maps and instead spraying down enemies, Frost was one of the best Frame in game, when CC and defense was the main objective. Since then nuking frames have taken over and Frost lost his usefulness as so many other frame out class him in every way. But there are other frames that are at worst conditions than Frost, for example Nyx and Zephyr.

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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

...for example Nyx and Zephyr.

Speak for yourself, My Zephyr Prime absolutely destroys. :)

As for Frost, he's one of those frames I really like but hardly use.  I've put a few forma on him, so his durability isn't an issue. He's just dull.  I would love to see a rework.  They did a fantastic rework on Vauban and would like to see the same love for Frost.

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14 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Mass CC and Icy Avalanche let you - and your Squad - survive decently enough while on the move, I find.

I don't quite follow, you want damage + CC, you mention Avalanche which gives damage + CC,
but then you complain that not using Avalanche means you don't get damage + CC ... well, yeah? :D

(Maybe you meant to make a point - which I can get behind - that Avalanche's damage should scale in some way? I guess? dunno lol)

Also, you can use more Duration if the CC doesn't last long enough for you.

I use Frost much less than what could be called "maining" him so I've missed a lot of the nuances of Avalanche, but to me spamming an ability over and over doesn't feel good. Avalanche freezes for 8-10 seconds, but it has an annoying cast time and not a terrific amount of range. Modding for range on Frost can gimp Snow Globe, as enemies will start to enter the Globe before attacking. Avalanche has decent power in theory, but I feel like we could do better than just having it be a spammed ability that only works for a few seconds if you consider that new enemies can just walk into the radius after firing. Maybe if it had a persistent effect or something like that I'd enjoy it more, but even with its CC and other helpful additions, Avalanche feels really old-fashioned compared to modern AoE design.

14 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Mod for Efficiency instead.

You can stack Globe health, both via recasts and the invincibility / enemy-fire-absorbing periods, up to 1 million or so.

Disagree. Enemy fire making your Globe health scale is working pretty well,
you can even Zenurik-regen enough Energy to keep recasts and thus your Globe up indefinitely.

You simply cast the ability while inside a Globe. What's the issue with that?

The absorb period was primarily added so that enemies didn't insta-kill the globe as it appeared, but the absorbed damage is just added to the Globe's pool without a boost, so the bonus will only last as long as it took to build up i.e. ~4 seconds. Maybe if you deliberately manipulated enemies into using stronger attacks in that time you'd get a bit more, but that's finicky.

Sitting on the spot spamming 3 for ages just to make the Globe viable in 50-100 missions is tedious even if it is effective. DE could very easily just condense that into a channel-to-charge mechanic, or allowing teammates to charge the Globe instead of just enemies, or any other number of more inventive changes. That way you only have to place the Globe once.

Overall, Snow Globe is entirely propped up by 2 or 3 bandaid mechanics, instead of being a cohesive whole. If a new Warframe released that had an ability that was only useful when you cast it 10 times in a row, people would hate it because DE can do better with their designs these days. Frost deserves the same treatment. He might be OK now, but he could me much more fun as well as more reliable.

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12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

a rework of the globe HP mechanic. Preferably adding the damage done to the globe as HP by recasting globe inside and adding the HP of units that die under the effect of a cold proc to the globe HP.

uhh
is there anything about the way Snowglobe currently works that your first half of that isn't what Snowglobe already does? confus

and i like your self half there, though i would suggest it would be more thematically appropriate if Enemies that are Frozen solid and then shattered, would add to the Health.

44 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

DE could very easily just condense that into a channel-to-charge mechanic, or allowing teammates to charge the Globe instead of just enemies, or any other number of more inventive changes. That way you only have to place the Globe once.

certainly could, though it would come at the expense of losing that Snowglobe currently has no Duration.

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His 1 has low damage and is really only good for single target hard CC or a tiny area soft CC.  If you include the bandaid mod (good luck fitting it in a build.) it can add some damage, but it's cold damage.  If it came with the bandaid augment innate to the ability, it would be a good skill.  It doesn't.  It's not.

His two is soft CC in an area that is small when compared to other frame's soft CC abilities.  Nova has a slow that covers a huge chunk of the map. Frost can hit a small cone with slow and do some really minor damage.  The problem with this ability is that it's redundant with his 1 and 4.  They all do really similar things, at different levels of effectiveness.  It's like the elemental spells in Final Fantasy games. Fire, Fira, Firaga.  Other frames get 4 unique abilities, some of those frames are good enough that the abilities are good on their own, but work in tandem with each other even better.  Frost has redundancy on bad abilities.

The problem with his 3 is that it's no good with just a single cast if you're in high level content.  At 200ish power strength and 630 armor a snow globe has 14k health.  If you recast inside the bubble it stacks health, 14k at a time.  Use Harrow's Covenant or any of the Iron Skin style abilities that show you how much damage you're absorbing from enemy fire and then go stand in front of a few higher level enemies and see how quickly they can get several thousand damage on you.  High level enemies can shred 14k health in seconds, especially because it has no DR of any kind on it.  .  "But what about the damage absorption phase!"  Glad you brought it up.  There is no multiplier for the damage added like there is for some other absorption abilities.  Damage in is health out.  Very simply put, if they can put 10k health on your bubble during the 4 second immunity phase, they can take 10k health OFF your bubble in the next 4 seconds.  The only way this ability stands up is if you cast it repeatedly in the same spot.  The health can stack up pretty high then, but you're looking at an absurd energy cost.  What do you get for that cost?  A shield that enemies can walk right through (even the augment only gives a 50% chance to freeze enemies that enter.  It doesn't scale with strength.) that also blocks your teammates outside it from shooting through it.  Because it blocks firing lanes in a potentially huge radius, it's often more a detriment than a help.  Because Frost has a pathetically small energy pool, if you're going to spam this you either have to fit efficiency in your build, or be willing to spam energy pizzas.  It's fine for low level players that need a defensive frame.  It works fine for cryotic farming.  It's not a very good ability compared to the scope of the game.

His 4 is just the final iteration of his 1 and 2.  It's decent CC, and with the augment can provide a few extra hits for your frame.  The damage is fine up to mid/high-ish level content.  It's not bad, but it needs a numbers buff or some kind of scaling.

His passive is horrible.  It's in the top 10 worst passives for me.

His stats are all over the place.  Mid level armor, but low health?  Tiny energy pool but the abilities look like he's supposed to be a caster frame.  Wisp has almost twice as much energy.  And for no real reason, below normal sprint speed.  

I used to main Frost.  I've had him in excavation fissure missions that lasted over an hour and a half.  He's still usable if you play your balls off and pay attention (and can get tons of energy from pizzas, and arcanes).  Frost was probably an excellent defensive frame 7 years ago, but he falls off sharply compared to several other options.

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7 hours ago, Krueller said:

Speak for yourself, My Zephyr Prime absolutely destroys. :)

Any frame can destroy.

Okay Zephyr main. You will benefit most with a helminth ability to tether enemies into one spot but if not your random flying enemies sound OP.

I can never get use to the randomness of her tornadoes. lol

 

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8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

spamming an ability over and over doesn't feel good

Well, thus the frequent calls for a rework, so you can spam more than 1 ability :P

8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Modding for range on Frost can gimp Snow Globe, as enemies will start to enter the Globe before attacking.

So you push them back out with a Globe recast (which also freezes them and can smash them against walls for % damage),
and / or keep them from entering in the first place via Avalanche (or, you know, killing them with weapons lol).

8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

the bonus will only last as long as it took to build up

That's still scaling infinitely.

Mind, if you wait out the absorb period and then Avalanche / kill the enemies outside the Globe,
you get a good chunk of Globe health without it going away again right then and there.

Like, just don't play Frost passively, react to what the enemies are doing,
not least utilizing Enemy Radar Mods (I stack Primed Animal Instinct and Vigilante Pursuit)
to see when best to use (Icy) Avalanche, and to e.g. spot Nullifiers (they're the only enemy marker still moving afterwards).

8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Sitting on the spot spamming 3 for ages just to make the Globe viable in 50-100 missions

That's just not a thing that I ever found necessary.

A few casts, then I like to go out and throw myself into the enemy horde, or rather statuary after a quick mass freeze (and Squad Iron Skin buff),
of course frequently returning to the Globe (argh Frosts that plop down Globes, especially in Interception, and then just call it a day)
to make sure enemies didn't sneak in / maybe refresh the Globe real quick if it somehow took serious damage (which doesn't happen often / fast).

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Five years ago Frost had his place but he hasn't seen love for five flippin years. The game has changed so much since then that he is just a meme now.

Everything he does someone can do much much better. Yes he has his meme bubble but it's useless in this current style of the game.

Your honestly better just having a Saryn, Octavia, Kora or honestly... any frame. I am sure he still does well in very low stuff but he quickly loses his power as you climb up.

This is comming from someone with a legit Frost tattoo on his body (from five years ago). I will always love my Frost but i will not pretend that he is ok at all and i understand why he is classed as the worse frame in the game.

 

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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

uhh
is there anything about the way Snowglobe currently works that your first half of that isn't what Snowglobe already does? confus

and i like your self half there, though i would suggest it would be more thematically appropriate if Enemies that are Frozen solid and then shattered, would add to the Health.

Well snow globe as far as I know takes the first 4 seconds of the immunity phase and adds all damage it takes there to the HP. This can be used to archive 100% damage immunity if you just stand on the defence target and cast snow globe every 3-3.5s. However given that I mostly solo missions I just keep a few heavy gunners or techs at the end of a defence round alive and let them shoot the gobe while you recast snow globe every time the percentage number shows up. I do this mostly given that you actually need to move around and shoot stuff if you are solo and I believe the current mechanic is far to much aimed at sitting there and just hitting 3 what is very passive gameplay and incredible boring.

What I suggest is that you can actually recharge the globes by throwing out CC and killing stuff as well as not being penelized by leaving the globe given that the globe that takes damage before you are back there will not reduce the HP of the globe on recast, assuming you make it there in time to recast it.

Small example:

My Frost has 100% power strenght 5000 HP per snow globe cast.

So assuming we soak up another 2k damage in the 4s invu phase after casting this leaves us with 7000 HP.

Currently:

Assuming the globe now takes 50% damage before I recast it with the current mechanic:

7000 HP x 0.5 = 3500 HP

3500 HP + 5000 HP = 8500 HP

If we now recast it at 20% HP it would look like that:

8500 x 0.2 = 2100 HP

2100 HP + 5000 HP = 7100 HP

Suggested change:

With the change adding the HP it lost with the recast to the HP again it would look like that:

7000 HP x 0.5 = 3500 HP

3500 HP + 3500 HP + 5000 HP = 13000 HP

If we do the same thing again and recast snow globe for that 24k one again at 20% snow globe HP it would look like that:

13000 HP x 0.2 = 2600 HP

2600 HP + 10400 HP + 5000 HP = 17000 HP

The idea is that your globe keeps it's relative HP value that you did build up if you manage to recast it in time without being bound to the 4s window and slowly gowing in strenght as levels go up, in a defence for example, in a more organic way, that does not force you to babysit it all the time.

As for the adding enemy HP on kill to the HP of the globes, I would prefere a cold proc for the reason that you can actually put it on weapons. I kind of like the idea of elemental warframes having interactions with her damage types like the old Ember where it was your scaling damage on weapons or the old Saryn where it increased miasma damage output.

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

Five years ago Frost had his place but he hasn't seen love for five flippin years. The game has changed so much since then that he is just a meme now.

Everything he does someone can do much much better. Yes he has his meme bubble but it's useless in this current style of the game.

Your honestly better just having a Saryn, Octavia, Kora or honestly... any frame. I am sure he still does well in very low stuff but he quickly loses his power as you climb up.

This is comming from someone with a legit Frost tattoo on his body (from five years ago). I will always love my Frost but i will not pretend that he is ok at all and i understand why he is classed as the worse frame in the game.

 

I did all my Steel path defences and excavations solo with frost so I am not really sure what the issue is outside of not having AOE mass murder abilities or spamming 1 all day for broken melee damage.

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On 2020-09-26 at 7:17 AM, Marill136 said:

People really want Frost to get his rework and wonder why he need a rework, I love his 4th skill but a lot of asking for the rework of Frost, I wonder why

Off the top of my head, the reasons I've seen for Frost needing a rework, which I largely agree with:

  • Much of his kit is redundant, in that his 1 and 2 serve no unique purpose when his 4 exists.
  • Snow Globe has been largely overtaken by Limbo's Cataclysm for defense, and beyond that doesn't make for terribly exciting gameplay, as it just encourages the player to park themselves in a spot, spam the ability until they run out, and then do something else, making Frost not as survivable as the ability would suggest.

Personally, I'd like to see Frost's abilities each given a unique function, and the frame itself made a bit more mobile overall. It's fine for frames to have more defensive roles, and even be able to lay static deployables, but when the gameplay behind that largely ends up boiling down to camping, that's not necessarily fun.

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10 hours ago, Djego27 said:

What I suggest is that you can actually recharge the globes by throwing out CC and killing stuff as well as not being penelized by leaving the globe given that the globe that takes damage before you are back there will not reduce the HP of the globe on recast, assuming you make it there in time to recast it.

you had two parts to what you said. the second part i was pretty clear i agreed with. i asked for clarification on the first part.

Quote

Preferably adding the damage done to the globe as HP by recasting globe inside

because this sounds exactly like something Snowglobe already does, so i don't understand how we can add it as a new thing. if you recast Snowglobe it has the 4 second absorb phase plus adds the old Health to the new Snowglobe.
so i don't get how we can add that.

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It currently only adds the remaining HP that where left on the snow globe at the point you recast the ability inside the globe to the new one, so all the HP that where lost you have to rebuild with the 4s window or by spamming snow globe. My issue with that is that you have to rebuild a lot at the end of higher defense waves given that you will always run into some damage spikes like multiple bombards or techs hitting your globe while you are busy dealing with a eximus, nullifier or melee units that rush the globe. 

With the change you would no longer have to do that if you manage to recast the ability inside before the globe breaks, given that your new globe will be just as strong as the old one(plus the HP from the recast), what gives you far more time to actually do something else then to babysit and rebuild your globe. 

 

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Off the top of my head, the reasons I've seen for Frost needing a rework, which I largely agree with:

  • Much of his kit is redundant, in that his 1 and 2 serve no unique purpose when his 4 exists.
  • Snow Globe has been largely overtaken by Limbo's Cataclysm for defense, and beyond that doesn't make for terribly exciting gameplay, as it just encourages the player to park themselves in a spot, spam the ability until they run out, and then do something else, making Frost not as survivable as the ability would suggest.

Personally, I'd like to see Frost's abilities each given a unique function, and the frame itself made a bit more mobile overall. It's fine for frames to have more defensive roles, and even be able to lay static deployables, but when the gameplay behind that largely ends up boiling down to camping, that's not necessarily fun.

Well the Avalanche changes where to good back in the day, giving Frost full hard CC on it's own instead of requiring a augment mod and being paired with a slow nova for that. In my opinion(unpopular) Avalanche should have 5m less base range and ice wave 10m more so they do not overlap in function. Also the first abilities on elemental frames should make targets more prone to her elemental damage like a 500% damage bonus for 5s, making them more useful to burst down high HP targets at higher levels and giving more reason to actually utilize your themed element on weapons, like it was the case with the old Ember. 

 

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