Jump to content
Whispers in the Walls: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Isolation Vaults are everything wrong with Warframe distilled into one activity.


(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan

Recommended Posts

Rarest rewards are gated behind having to go through two separate bounties before you can even make an attempt at a run for said rare rewards.  You cannot farm just Vault 3.  Busy work gating is a problem throughout the game, perfectly displayed here.

There are several progression breaking bugs that can cause you to do all the work just to get to vault 3 for a shot at the rare rewards, only to end your run before you get that shot.  All the work to get there and then you don't get the chance at a drop because of endless bugs.  Bugs and wasted time investment are rampant throughout this game.  Neatly packaged up for you here as well.

Excessive waiting periods with repetitive activities and extremely repetitive voice lines.  All 3 vaults play exactly the same.  They all have the same dialogue.  The game will play literally all of it every single time until you loathe to hear Loid/Otak/Mother speak.  There's the NW skip (that I'm sure they'll patch out at some point.) but I've had this skip cause the game to soft lock and not start the bounty more than once.  I just had it happen on the start of the Vault 3 bounty.  Time-gating and repetition are the hallmarks of DE's development philosophy.  When we complain about the time-gating, they make them worse.  If they accidentally put in an arbitrary waiting period in a mission or bounty that doesn't feel absolutely awful they will literally go in and make the timer longer just as a bonus "F*** you" to the players.

Necramechs are cheap enemies that are either misery to fight, or you just do like Eidolons and several other things in this game and bring the cookie cutter meta gear and cheese them.  Poor enemy balance and design and the "unintended" enforcement of a meta are also problems in this game.  Part of the cheapness of these Necramechs is their ability to spew out high damage mines over a large area without any warning.  There's no chance or opportunity to dodge these mines.  Even with one of the meta setups where these mines aren't a problem for the players themselves, I have watched these mines take out my sentinel and eat all the extra lives given by Primed Regen instantly.  My sentinel has gone from not dying the whole mission (I watched it like a hawk.) to being instantly dead as soon as the mine attack started.  This highlights the issue that Sentinels and companions in general are far too fragile.  That fragility highlights the issue of absolutely basic quality of life being tied to mods that are attached to AI controlled entities with paper-thin defense.

And lastly, another huge problem this game has, that is succinctly displayed by Isolation Vaults.  RNG and rarity issues.  Necramech mods have a laughably bad chance to drop, especially when you consider how few necramechs you can really fight in a given time period compared to other enemies with similar drop rates.  A 0.2% drop chance from what amounts to a boss fight (you can guaranteed run most assassination missions faster than you can run an Iso Vault.) is absolutely horrendous.  Bad drop tables exist in nearly every facet of this game.  From a tiny pittance of credit caches, to literally getting a Vitality mod as a rotation drop on the last planet in the star chart, to various mods being notoriously painful to get, low drop chances and diluted drop tables serve to spread "content" thin via scarcity.  

This is most of the major, general game issues that players have complained about for years, all distilled down into one activity.  Every single time I run Iso Vaults it reminds me why I was taking a break and I stop playing again.  And before one of you does it, "You don't have to do them."  Is that really how we want new content to be?  So infuriating and tedious that people opt out?  I've seen so many people saying they're flat out ignoring Deimos, and the numbers of players I see in my alliance, in recruit chat and in trade chat are extremely low considering they just released an update.  There are a lot of complaints and the devs don't seem to be listening at all.  People complained about the Latrox Une bounty and they made it worse while not even acknowledging the complaints players were making.  This really needs to get turned around because it keeps getting worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Poor enemy balance and design and the "unintended" enforcement of a meta are also problems in this game.

I mostly agree with you, but here I do not.

  • Storm Shroud is very poorly telegraphed in how you should approach it, I'll give you that. But once you know how it works, it's very easy to counter.
  • I would have agreed with you about the mines in the past, but the addition of shield gating gives you a fair amount of reaction time based on the player type this is targeted towards.
  • And the slow is again just really poorly telegraphed, even when you use it in your own mech.
  • I will say that the ability to nullify void dash is bullsh*t.

And a "meta" comes about in places like these because that's just what happens when you challenge the playerbase. Nothing in this game would be fun if I could easily clear it with a Soma. We need activities on occasion to say "Zephyr and a Braton Prime aren't going to cut it", because a challenge is good even if it limits what's viable. Or would you rather we just be on Earth insta killing everything in a 50m radius as Equinox and call it a day?

And the "meta" isn't even that limiting. Bring a Catchmoon, Octavia, any warframe with Defy, Stropha, Xaku to perma pacify them, Volt to spillover damage from their arm to insta kill them, etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely agree with the bit about voice lines, the voicelines themselves are not annoying its just that the bounty does not start until the 2 minutes of dialogue is finished each time you initiate a vault. Definitely needs a change. 

 

Also necramechs are a bit stupid. their storm shroud has zero cast animation and will just happen I had an instance where I stacked a madurai void strike to 30x on the tox section of the vault while my mates cleared the enemies so we could oneshot the mechs inside without effort and right as I pulled the trigger of my chakkhur - the mech used its storm shroud while my projectiles were mid-air and got hit for something along the lines of a few hundred thousand damage in a single hit - safe to say, the mech's shield became literally impenetrable, and we then proceeded to beat on its shield for 15 minutes to no avail and had to quit out of the mission. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JustMichal3770 said:

I definitely agree with the bit about voice lines, the voicelines themselves are not annoying its just that the bounty does not start until the 2 minutes of dialogue is finished each time you initiate a vault. Definitely needs a change. 

That's a problem throughout all Free Roam maps in general, and it's honestly really annoying. I've mentioned this before, but my friends and I started yelling at the NPCs over voice chat to "Shut up and give me a waypoint already!" That was before I learned about the "Nightwave skip," which I've used judiciously since. I don't mind the voice lines, even if they're repetitive. I mind sitting in my hands while NPCs enact a radio drama over the comms for the umpteenth time and refuse to start the mission until they do. It's the equivalent of an unskippable cutscene. In fact, it's pretty much exactly like the once-unskippable cutscenes on the Profit-Taker Orb Bounty. Anyone remember how annoying that was until we hassled DE into letting us skip that? Same logic applies here.

 

6 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And a "meta" comes about in places like these because that's just what happens when you challenge the playerbase. Nothing in this game would be fun if I could easily clear it with a Soma. We need activities on occasion to say "Zephyr and a Braton Prime aren't going to cut it", because a challenge is good even if it limits what's viable. Or would you rather we just be on Earth insta killing everything in a 50m radius as Equinox and call it a day?

OK, that last line is a straw man and you know it. Please, avoid posting disingenuous fallacies like this. It doesn't help anyone.

More broadly, though, what you're presenting here is a conundrum and I'm not entirely sure if you realise this. You keep citing "a challenge" in defence of metas, but that's not what metas do. They develop specifically to NEGATE challenge. A difficult fight exists that people find annoying. They bring the "correct" gear and builds so that they can defeat that fight quickly, easily and - crucially - without challenge. The reason players feel compelled to bring only a smallset of builds is precisely because those are the builds which negate the challenge and allow one to cycle quickly through the activity for more efficient grinding.

In fact, your straw man about wanting to play on Earth and instakill everything all the time is precisely what ends up happening with such metas. They reduce what could otherwise have been a meaningful fight into the equivalent of comp-stomping low-level enemies. Necramechs are a particularly egregious example, as they can turn into a protracted, really tedious fight if you brought the wrong gear, or else die instantly like they were level 1 Grineer if you brought the correct gear or managed to spike-damage them before they tripped their Storm Shroud.

Gear checks are not challenge. They're the opposite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:


There are several progression breaking bugs that can cause you to do all the work just to get to vault 3 for a shot at the rare rewards, only to end your run before you get that shot.  All the work to get there and then you don't get the chance at a drop because of endless bugs.  Bugs and wasted time investment are rampant throughout this game.  Neatly packaged up for you here as well.

Excessive waiting periods with repetitive activities and extremely repetitive voice lines.  All 3 vaults play exactly the same.  They all have the same dialogue.  The game will play literally all of it every single time until you loathe to hear Loid/Otak/Mother speak.  There's the NW skip (that I'm sure they'll patch out at some point.) but I've had this skip cause the game to soft lock and not start the bounty more than once.  I just had it happen on the start of the Vault 3 bounty.  Time-gating and repetition are the hallmarks of DE's development philosophy.  When we complain about the time-gating, they make them worse.  If they accidentally put in an arbitrary waiting period in a mission or bounty that doesn't feel absolutely awful they will literally go in and make the timer longer just as a bonus "F*** you" to the players.

Forgot to mention the time gate of the unrelated fass and vome cicle that serves no purpose. Since you can start a vault with 20 min remaining on the current cicle. 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Shroud.

Gear checks are not challenge. They're the opposite.

I literally never saw someone handing out this advice " have you considered gitting good "  to someone struggling to finish a mission and that's concerning. The question are " are you using the right damage type " , " do you have the right warframe " , " are you using the right weapon that somehow bypasses the enemy defensive mechanics " and so on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isolation vaults were one of the activities that I started out seeing as a bit of fun, but when I realised that they were tied into a mod selection with such a criminally low drop rate, alongside Scintillant, I realised that Deimos is one of the most blatant content pads they've released in a while. I know that obviously DE wants to have high engagement for months after a big update, but this was the worst way to do it. I have done 8 or 9 runs since launch (5 of which have been after some of the Necramech mods were moved to Loid) and that was mostly to get Scintillant because the monotony of the topside bounties is worse. Latrox Une and Assassination both need a looking into, it shouldn't feel tedious to have to kill enemies or near impossible to keep a target alive.  

35 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I literally never saw someone handing out this advice " have you considered gitting good "  to someone struggling to finish a mission and that's concerning. The question are " are you using the right damage type " , " do you have the right warframe " , " are you using the right weapon that somehow bypasses the enemy defensive mechanics " and so on.

I find it really hard to fathom how DE still doesn't know how to present a challenge that can't be cheesed. Now maybe it might be that we simply just have too many tools for them to consider, but at the same time they have the usage stats to let them know what is and isn't being chosen. They also say that they watch the guides that some of their content creators make and that has recently lead to nerfs for the helminth system pre release and more recently MfD. What they apparently haven't considered is the cheese that allows you to instagib a Necramech. 

That being said, I think they need to start introducing the League of Legends rework system - minor buffs and nerfs to Warframes that are either overperforming or underperforming and if they're too good or too bad to give them a full rework. Granted, Riot has about twice as many staff on hand for what they do and also they have much less content to consider. I doubt DE will consider this now that the Helminth system is out though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

find it really hard to fathom how DE still doesn't know how to present a challenge that can't be cheesed. Now maybe it might be that we simply just have too many tools for them to consider, but at the same time they have the usage stats to let them know what is and isn't being chosen. They also say that they watch the guides that some of their content creators make and that has recently lead to nerfs for the helminth system pre release and more recently MfD. What they apparently haven't considered is the cheese that allows you to instagib a Necramech. 

I'm impressed I haven't heard off a nerf to stropa and Octavia killing necramech regardless of their damage immunities , probably they were nerfed because vaults would be unbearable ( idk the current situation , got my mech and never touched a vault again not plan too ). About tools. The problem is the enemies don't have the tools the tools to deal with warframe but the enemies that do have them reduce the tenno to moa( run and shoot man ). DE can't create challenge under this stucute because it will always feel cheap. 

I think the anti tenno tools should be spread out on multiple enemies and the game should use dinamic spawning to deal with the player strategy.Here a few example of enemies I think would be chalening but not feel like BS because they have counter plat. Am of them are grineer because the grinee have no anti ability units. .

Red coolaid balista ( aka kuva balista ) - fires shot that ignore all defenses ( riff , bubble , shield gate , damage reduction , armor ... ) and deals 50% max HP as damage regardless of level.  Sounds OP until you recall the las time a balista hit you

The tubeman squad 

Gunner - optical aspects - has a cone showing his line of sight ( like tbe corpus camera ) and can see invisible units. Armed with a ink granade to reveal invisible targets.

Brawler - has a jetpack and is armed with thr tyl regor hands - purges buffes if hits the olaye5 with both hand ( 2 slaps or 1 charge attack )

Medic - purges debuff after a charge up with a sound cue , gives temporary imunty to the purged de buffs 

I've created units that make a mockery of the +100 k EHP builds , units that can deal with the bulshieties cc wall but player can deal with them. The balista takes time aiming, the gunner shows where he is looking at , the brawler has to connect multiple hits ( or 1 slow one ) , thr medic has a sound cue and charge time on top not grating blanket immunity ( if you thrown another cc type it will work just fine )

These units are strong but thrir b.s. is easily mitigated by player skill 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I largely have to agree with the criticism. I do think there are worse bits of gameplay than Iso-Vaults, but that does not stop those missions from having some pretty glaring issues. For me, the lowlights are:

  • The padding is obvious: overall, Isolation Vaults largely break down to a Mobile Defense mission with a little bit of Survival thrown in, the common thread to these subtypes being that the player is made to wait while doing stuff. The initial section about crafting a key and surviving the toxicity has nothing at all to do with the Isolation Vaults themselves, and is clearly there to take up the player's time. After the Necramechs, the defense section with Loid would perhaps be a bit better if he didn't move at such a glacial pace, a pointless little bit of balancing that adds... how many seconds to the bounty completion time? Really, the core part of the whole bounty is getting down to the vault, fighting Necramechs, then solving the puzzle, which takes up about two of the bountry's about eight minutes of completion time.
  • Necramechs are chaotic to fight in the wrong ways: Necramechs seem to have resurrected bits of boss design that I thought DE had abandoned a while ago, for good reason. Invincibility with smaller hitboxes of vulnerability pair especially poorly with unreliable connections and rapid mobility on the unit with those hitboxes, which makes killing the things a crapshoot even with the right weaponry (a single shot from the Stropha can one-shot the mech or do nothing at all almost at random). The fact that the unit itself has damage reflection and spammy AoE mines that virtually guarantee a dead Sentinel is just the icing on the cake, and makes Necramechs more annoying than challenging to fight.
  • The drops are poorly-distributed into diluted loot tables: As is customary in Warframe, there is only a small subset of rewards one will actually be looking for when running Isolation Vaults, and they're buried under a ton of loot padding. It will take the player approximately half an hour to get a 5% chance at a Cortege part, while the Necramech tables are full of mods with low drop chances that we should be buying from the Necraloid syndicate instead. The entire system is made to waste the player's time, with most runs giving the player nothing of worth.
  • The time-gating is unnecessary: There is strictly no in-game justification for resetting Iso-Vault tier levels in general, even less so for resetting them upon transition to Vome or Fass. The actual reason is obvious, in that the intent is to prevent players from having too much of a chance to get the higher-tier rewards, and along with the padding it just makes the bounty's structure feel even less player-friendly.

If I were to change the bounty, I'd likely do it in the following ways:

  • Remove the tiers entirely, and simply have the bounty at max tier from the start. The earlier tiers are just fluff and don't need to be there.
  • If we really must keep the mobile defense and survival sections, shorten their time by about half. This should mean speeding Loid up significantly.
  • Shift all Necramech mods to the Necraloid syndicate's rewards, and remove the matrices from the bounty rewards, while making Necramechs drop more matrices.
  • Rework Necramech enemies. Not quite sure exactly what the end result should look like, but ideally it should be something without spammy AoE and janky invincibility hitboxes.
  • This should go without saying, but fix the bugs that remain. One particularly strange one has the puzzle crystals not display their proper symbol to anyone except the host, which locks players out of solving the door puzzle.
  • While not as essential as the others... please add more voice lines? There appears to be a maximum of three lines that get played per stage, and for a bounty that the developers expect us to play dozens of times, that quickly grates.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

I literally never saw someone handing out this advice " have you considered gitting good "  to someone struggling to finish a mission and that's concerning. The question are " are you using the right damage type " , " do you have the right warframe " , " are you using the right weapon that somehow bypasses the enemy defensive mechanics " and so on. 

Pretty much, yeah. It's what I've started doing intuitively. Whenever friends or myself are having trouble with something, the first question that always comes up is "Well, what are you using?" For being an action game, Warframe does all too often break down along the same lines as old Tab-target MMOs ala City of Heroes. Did you bring the right stats? If so, you win. If not, go back and bring the right stats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

I think the anti tenno tools should be spread out on multiple enemies and the game should use dynamic spawning to deal with the player strategy.Here a few example of enemies I think would be challenging but not feel like BS because they have counter plat. Am of them are Grineer because the Grineer have no anti ability units. .

Red coolaid balista ( aka kuva balista ) - fires shot that ignore all defenses ( riff , bubble , shield gate , damage reduction , armor ... ) and deals 50% max HP as damage regardless of level.  Sounds OP until you recall the last time a balista hit you

The tubeman squad 

Gunner - optical aspects - has a cone showing his line of sight ( like tbe corpus camera ) and can see invisible units. Armed with a ink granade to reveal invisible targets.

Brawler - has a jetpack and is armed with thr tyl regor hands - purges buffes if hits the olaye5 with both hand ( 2 slaps or 1 charge attack )

Medic - purges debuff after a charge up with a sound cue , gives temporary imunty to the purged de buffs 

I've created units that make a mockery of the +100 k EHP builds , units that can deal with the bulshieties cc wall but player can deal with them. The balista takes time aiming, the gunner shows where he is looking at , the brawler has to connect multiple hits ( or 1 slow one ) , thr medic has a sound cue and charge time on top not grating blanket immunity ( if you thrown another cc type it will work just fine )

These units are strong but thrir b.s. is easily mitigated by player skill 

 

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Necramechs are chaotic to fight in the wrong ways: Necramechs seem to have resurrected bits of boss design that I thought DE had abandoned a while ago, for good reason. Invincibility with smaller hitboxes of vulnerability pair especially poorly with unreliable connections and rapid mobility on the unit with those hitboxes, which makes killing the things a crapshoot even with the right weaponry (a single shot from the Stropha can one-shot the mech or do nothing at all almost at random). The fact that the unit itself has damage reflection and spammy AoE mines that virtually guarantee a dead Sentinel is just the icing on the cake, and makes Necramechs more annoying than challenging to fight.

The last time I have felt truly challenged by an enemy after the first time was the original elemental prosecutors and also the Gustrag 3 back during damage 1.0. As you both have said, there are few enemies that are challenging but fair.  The biggest problem I have with most melee enemies is that they either cannot close the distance fast enough, cannot parry, or their attack windup or damage is so low that it never is a problem if they do hit you. It is clear to me that the Ghouls would have definitely addressed some of these issues for the Grineer, but to counteract the challenge, DE has given them to us in the one place where they are ineffective- the open world. 

The biggest problem for ranged enemies is that the furthest extent of their powers come down to a grenade or knockdown. Some bosses are better than others in changing this up, but that usually comes down to invulnerability phases, or like has been done here, un-telegraphed abilities and damage reduction hitboxes.

If it were up to me, the Necramechs that we face in the vaults wouldn't have a fixed damage points system, but more phases. The new Jackal should be the model for how to do a fight like this. Large, obvious weakspots, but a challenge in between damage phases. It also doesn't help that their kit directly reflects the Necramechs that we get. Had they launched with a different skillset, different weapons, etc that would have been more interesting. What if they spawned adds, or encouraged you to stand together to absorb damage, or not stand in the void - plasma? What if they had a random skillset from a pool of abilities to make every encounter different? 

Regardless that is not what we got. 

For other enemies, I wish that we had gotten more interaction with the Ascaris, or the Pacification bolt, or the Recover mission type. Something that made failure have a consequence. The Lich spinebreak was actually refreshing, but so many people whined that it was removed from the game.  

42 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If I were to change the bounty, I'd likely do it in the following ways:

  • Remove the tiers entirely, and simply have the bounty at max tier from the start. The earlier tiers are just fluff and don't need to be there.
  • If we really must keep the mobile defense and survival sections, shorten their time by about half. This should mean speeding Loid up significantly.
  • Shift all Necramech mods to the Necraloid syndicate's rewards, and remove the matrices from the bounty rewards, while making Necramechs drop more matrices.
  • Rework Necramech enemies. Not quite sure exactly what the end result should look like, but ideally it should be something without spammy AoE and janky invincibility hitboxes.
  • This should go without saying, but fix the bugs that remain. One particularly strange one has the puzzle crystals not display their proper symbol to anyone except the host, which locks players out of solving the door puzzle.
  • While not as essential as the others... please add more voice lines? There appears to be a maximum of three lines that get played per stage, and for a bounty that the developers expect us to play dozens of times, that quickly grates.

- I think that they probably will (or should) add a Steel Path version that goes straight to T3 with the new mech launches. It makes little sense that the standard bounties go up to level 100 but Isolation is stuck at the mid fifties. 

-I think that there should be a pool of sections for the game to choose from. Wheres Capture, or Rescue, or dare I say Spy, akin to the section in the introductory quest? That was actually difficult.

-I think that my statement about giving them a pool of abilities and clearly defined phases fits here.

-Bugs are bugs are bugs. Jordas Golem is still broken 2 years later, but ironing out Necramechs will be higher on their priority list.

- New voice lines? Remember that it took them 3 years to record the voice lines for the Hydroid Prime Trailer (allegedly).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Gear checks are not challenge.

Then by that logic nothing is.

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Necramechs are a particularly egregious example, as they can turn into a protracted, really tedious fight

As you'll seem to deem anything where you bring the wrong gear a tedium, instead of a challenge.

2 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

That being said, I think they need to start introducing the League of Legends rework system

Ah yes, a PvP balancing approach literally stated to almost only nerfing things to simply change the meta, not because they needed it.

30 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Warframe does all too often break down along the same lines as old Tab-target MMOs ala City of Heroes. Did you bring the right stats?

Knowing you should bring radiation instead of gas is not a "gear check".

33 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

It's what I've started doing intuitively. Whenever friends or myself are having trouble with something, the first question that always comes up is "Well, what are you using?"

As opposed to? What are you complaining about here? 

21 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

If it were up to me, the Necramechs that we face in the vaults wouldn't have a fixed damage points system, but more phases. The new Jackal should be the model for how to do a fight like this.

You're probably off on a tangent, but it's funny how you offer a boss system that would just piss off the OP more. Almost the whole complaint is about how long and drawn out the vaults already are.

And the new Jackal is not fun or a challenge, it's boring. Shoot once, void mode, cut scene, repeat. Turns a (generous) 10 second fight into a 3 minute one.

26 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

Something that made failure have a consequence. The Lich spinebreak was actually refreshing

Yes a near guaranteed failure that is out of my control, and serves nothing but to reset my energy/stacks as I kill the few remaining thrall.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Ah yes, a PvP balancing approach literally stated to almost only nerfing things to simply change the meta, not because they needed it.

What I mean by that is more that DE needs to consider the big picture of what every frame does and does not do in relation to each other. For instance, where an ability is done better somewhere else, then it should either be streamlined, or be changed. Fundamentally though, DE doesn't have the same release schedule so maybe its just better that the Helminth system is out there reminding us how much of a half measure it is.

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And the new Jackal is not fun or a challenge, it's boring. Shoot once, void mode, cut scene, repeat. Turns a (generous) 10 second fight into a 3 minute one.

I think that DE seems to work best with 3 hits and they're down style bosses. Everyone but the Sergeant works more or less in that way. It doesn't have to be arbitrarily long, but defined phases would give a bit more polish to enemies that currently are extremely scuffed. They should be the main focus and biggest challenge of the last phase of the vaults, not reaching for pain killers as you wait an age for Loid to travel from his spawn point to the generators.

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes a near guaranteed failure that is out of my control, and serves nothing but to reset my energy/stacks as I kill the few remaining thrall.

Had the lich system not had a random order of requiems yes. It is more the idea that failure can have a meaningful consequence. That is just another example as to why it is hard to pluck good from bad, because the good that I'm praising has the caveat of 'when it works as intended' and I think that the lich spine break, if it worked as intended as a way of getting you to not take risks on the last requiem during a mission where you had one revive left, but maybe thats just me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

The last time I have felt truly challenged by an enemy after the first time was the original elemental prosecutors and also the Gustrag 3 back during damage 1.0. As you both have said, there are few enemies that are challenging but fair.  The biggest problem I have with most melee enemies is that they either cannot close the distance fast enough, cannot parry, or their attack windup or damage is so low that it never is a problem if they do hit you. It is clear to me that the Ghouls would have definitely addressed some of these issues for the Grineer, but to counteract the challenge, DE has given them to us in the one place where they are ineffective- the open world. 

Member running away from the grustrang 3. Yep DE does not seem to understand what makes a good enemy desing so the either create the chosen one immune to everything or they create a new flavour of shaft. Also they waste a lot of development time on new types of shaft. Why DE bothered themselves to create a animation set for the centipide enemies , to the tower enemy , the upcoming 2 moas stacked on top of each other. There a big problem of DE designing a enemy because it looks cool intead of designing a enemy for a role on the faction or game play loop in mind. The most memorable enemy in deimos is the reused trashed because it makes me pay atention where I'm stepping. The rest I don't even know who does what. 

1 hour ago, Teoarrk said:

furthest extent of their powers come down to a grenade or knockdown. Some bosses are better than others in changing this up, but that usually comes down to invulnerability phases, or like has been done here, un-telegraphed abilities and damage reduction hitboxes.

I boils down to DE not understanding the value of counter play. If theplayer can a block or dodge something that something can be strong precisely because the player can avoid it. Also thetr seen to have a weird dicult = challenging. So DE amps up the difficult by spaming the players with attack that the player can't counter and removing all his tools at the same time on fight.

1 hour ago, Teoarrk said:

it were up to me, the Necramechs that we face in the vaults wouldn't have a fixed damage points system, but more phases. The new Jackal should be the model for how to do a fight like this. Large, obvious weakspots, but a challenge in between damage phases. It also doesn't help that their kit directly reflects the Necramechs that we get. Had they launched with a different skillset, different weapons, etc that would have been more interesting. What if they spawned adds, or encouraged you to stand together to absorb damage, or not stand in the void - plasma? What if they had a random skillset from a pool of abilities to make every encounter different? 

I feel like they were intended to be modular but that's was scraped. Would do wonders for the repeatability od vaults 

 

1 hour ago, Teoarrk said:

that we had gotten more interaction with the Ascaris, or the Pacification bolt, or the Recover mission type. Something that made failure have a consequence. The Lich spinebreak was actually refreshing, but so many people whined that it was removed

I like the first two because its my failure in game. The lich thing was stupid because I failed a guessing game not the fight , I would not even mind if it was the consequence of failing QTE after quessing wrong but the whole quess wrong die was stupid.

1 hour ago, Teoarrk said:

think that there should be a pool of sections for the game to choose from. Wheres Capture, or Rescue, or dare I say Spy, akin to the section in the introductory quest? That

At least more interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A very well put response @Teoarrk .

1 hour ago, Teoarrk said:

What I mean by that is more that DE needs to consider the big picture

Then I would say I agree. And I understand it's a balance, but I would prefer mechanics be raised if something is outperforming if it's not too much of a stretch.

Like from a DPS perspective, I think Grasp of Lohk is a good side grade to Splinter Storm. But Radial Howl is barely keeping pace with Breach Surge; And I would rather have RH raised, instead of BS lowered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, keikogi said:

There a big problem of DE designing a enemy because it looks cool instead of designing a enemy for a role on the faction or game play loop in mind.

I think this statement sums up DE's design philosophy in general. 

28 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I boils down to DE not understanding the value of counter play. If the player can a block or dodge something that something can be strong precisely because the player can avoid it. Also there seems to have a weird difficult = challenging. So DE amps up the difficult by spamming the players with attack that the player can't counter and removing all his tools at the same time on fight.

I think that I get what you mean here - that DE only really knows how to throw challenges at players when their toys are taken away and it is only in a narrow window of variability where they create a challenge. I guess you can say that it did make a big difference in how the open world bosses felt to fight, that different tools had, or didn't have a place. 

31 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I feel like they were intended to be modular but that's was scraped. Would do wonders for the repeatability of vaults

As we discussed in your thread about reworking Necramech melee.

32 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I like the first two because its my failure in game. The lich thing was stupid because I failed a guessing game not the fight , I would not even mind if it was the consequence of failing QTE after guessing wrong but the whole guess wrong die was stupid.

 I guess I should clarify further. If the spine break was an actual QTE as the industry defines it - press x button, then press a number of further inputs to not die, that would have been more appropriate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

A very well put response @Teoarrk .

Then I would say I agree. And I understand it's a balance, but I would prefer mechanics be raised if something is outperforming if it's not too much of a stretch.

Like from a DPS perspective, I think Grasp of Lohk is a good side grade to Splinter Storm. But Radial Howl is barely keeping pace with Breach Surge; And I would rather have RH raised, instead of BS lowered.

Firstly, thank you @KitMeHarder.

Secondly - this is exactly what I mean. Bringing everything up to a similar level should be a priority, so you can make more flavorful choices over purely mechanical ones.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a big part of this issue is mob design. Warframe works great as a gliding and action RPG game. As a gun game, not to a much. The frames design Works well for an onslaught of enemies. For bosses... it does not. Most bosses or mini bosses devolve into: invulnerability phase(s) and shoot the boss in a very specific spot. And of course most bosses are immune to status, which is a good chunk of where the damage typically comes from. 
 

And DE said that they are working to make all enemies subject to status. Then proceed to create the open world with the most status immune enemies. 🤦‍♂️

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I think a big part of this issue is mob design. Warframe works great as a gliding and action RPG game. As a gun game, not to a much. The frames design Works well for an onslaught of enemies. For bosses... it does not. Most bosses or mini bosses devolve into: invulnerability phase(s) and shoot the boss in a very specific spot. And of course most bosses are immune to status, which is a good chunk of where the damage typically comes from. 
 

And DE said that they are working to make all enemies subject to status. Then proceed to create the open world with the most status immune enemies. 🤦‍♂️

To be fair, to make enemies be able to be a challenge to both low MR and high MR players, they kinda have to be gimmicky, especially when you have players that can deal millions of damage in burst next to players that can manage an output of 4000 on a good day. Unless they either nerf us, or massively buff enemy armor, health, AI, whatever it is that can make enemies scary again, it's the best they can do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anyone still playing vaults at all? the missions get very not fun after just few runs on top of bugs. And worst of all the rewards are still terrible and not worth the time - when you can just buy mech scraps for 10p of the market. The mods and that useless weapon parts never drop anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

If it were up to me, the Necramechs that we face in the vaults wouldn't have a fixed damage points system, but more phases. The new Jackal should be the model for how to do a fight like this. Large, obvious weakspots, but a challenge in between damage phases. It also doesn't help that their kit directly reflects the Necramechs that we get. Had they launched with a different skillset, different weapons, etc that would have been more interesting. What if they spawned adds, or encouraged you to stand together to absorb damage, or not stand in the void - plasma? What if they had a random skillset from a pool of abilities to make every encounter different?

You wouldn't say that, if you fought the Jackal at Fossa a few times and find that it bugs the hell out more often than not.

The enemy Necramechs are using Vay Hek's old jitter pivoting so it's nearly impossible to hit their backs when you're solo or if everyone is on one side of an enemy mech.

I liked parts of the Eidolon fights since they moved slow enough for you to spot what you need to hit, but they moved quite fast if you are zoomed in fully with a Lanka (8x).

The enemy mechs need a rework - otherwise it's basically hosing it down (for me) with a Mausolon while the other players try to one shot it with a Stropha's heavy hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Monolake said:

Is anyone still playing vaults at all? the missions get very not fun after just few runs on top of bugs. And worst of all the rewards are still terrible and not worth the time - when you can just buy mech scraps for 10p of the market. The mods and that useless weapon parts never drop anyway.

I occasionally play, but not recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Monolake said:

Is anyone still playing vaults at all? the missions get very not fun after just few runs on top of bugs. And worst of all the rewards are still terrible and not worth the time - when you can just buy mech scraps for 10p of the market. The mods and that useless weapon parts never drop anyway.

Haven’t came back to Vaults for Weeks and i still haven’t farmed Cortege yet too. If i do want to farm it, i would get it Solo since it’s a nightmare with randoms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

You wouldn't say that, if you fought the Jackal at Fossa a few times and find that it bugs the hell out more often than not.

The enemy Necramechs are using Vay Hek's old jitter pivoting so it's nearly impossible to hit their backs when you're solo or if everyone is on one side of an enemy mech.

I liked parts of the Eidolon fights since they moved slow enough for you to spot what you need to hit, but they moved quite fast if you are zoomed in fully with a Lanka (8x).

The enemy mechs need a rework - otherwise it's basically hosing it down (for me) with a Mausolon while the other players try to one shot it with a Stropha's heavy hit.

I've fought it quite a few times and run into glitching boundaries / the entire room becomes electrified and I have to reset. It's not that the boss is the most stable, its more that it follows the dominant theme they have gone for over the years. (Tyl Regor, Captain Vor, Lech Kril, Ropalolyst, Emissary Prelate, etc). The fact that these new units borrow from the most hated boss of all time kinda says a lot about why they are scuffed though - Sargus Ruk and Hek turn way too fast for what the game is expecting from us. What makes it worse is that their arenas do little to make it better with a lot of clutter or bad vantage points.

I think honestly the majority of bosses need a rework except the Eidolons and the Orbs. The vault Necramechs are just the new additions to the pile.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Necromech design kinda cool . It makes you count timers, use different weapons, constantly switch operator-frame, being very mobile. Combat feels very fluid. I had great fun fighting all 3 mechs at once as Hildryn. 

But... There is little but.. No, wait, it’s huge but. Weakspots. Holy God , how am I hate this mechanics in all games, I suck at aiming, and I always hate it, it’s my problem, fine I can deal with it, but making main weakspot on the back!? On the back of the thing that instantly turns around even if you sneak behind it in operator’s mode unnoticed? If not ignis I doubt I would play this at all. 

Yes I know that you can shoot at arms, but than you have to wait when he picks up them again to keep the fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2020-09-28 at 12:49 AM, Teoarrk said:

I've fought it quite a few times and run into glitching boundaries / the entire room becomes electrified and I have to reset. It's not that the boss is the most stable, its more that it follows the dominant theme they have gone for over the years. (Tyl Regor, Captain Vor, Lech Kril, Ropalolyst, Emissary Prelate, etc). The fact that these new units borrow from the most hated boss of all time kinda says a lot about why they are scuffed though - Sargus Ruk and Hek turn way too fast for what the game is expecting from us. What makes it worse is that their arenas do little to make it better with a lot of clutter or bad vantage points.

I think honestly the majority of bosses need a rework except the Eidolons and the Orbs. The vault Necramechs are just the new additions to the pile.

Ruk turns, but he freezes frame when he makes certain attacks. Then again, I use a Nyx with Assimilate/Absorb and just Catchmoon the mo-fo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...