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Wasnt the goal a LESS grindy game?


(PSN)Deathscythex01

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12 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

Deimos is still the best open world mission in term of grind. 2 SP bounties and you get all the daily standing.

you must be joking.

SP bounty gives you 13.8k standing for perfect run, 30.25k/13.8k = 2.1884058, assuming each run takes you 16 min, you will be looking at 35 min to grind out a daily worth of standing.

You can do that within 10 on fortuna, within 20 on plains

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On 2020-09-27 at 11:58 PM, S.Dust said:

You say this as if getting the mods is very hard, it's like argon you get them when you need them, they're not mods that need to be in constant use so having the player need to get more of them from time to time (which is every 3 liches which is actually a pretty good number) isn't that bad. As far as number of murmurs it's not that bad when you consider the fact that you can get lucky and skip whole phases if you continue to swap out the mods and guess right, it encourages interacting with your failures. They also said it wasn't meant to be a fast system, probably some of the more satisfying weapons in the game to get since they're earned behind time and not rng outside of getting the lich itself.

 

You make the assumption that I am saying mods are hard to get which I'm not, but you are proving my point that it is unneeded grind. Yes IF you guess right you can skip whole phases but even doing that just adds more unnecessary grind. Getting the murmurs to reveal the correct mod to kill the lich takes too long period theres no getting around that unless DE significantly reduces the amount of larva to level the murmur its just becomes more grind. That last sentence makes no sense how can something not be rng based but be rng based? It's either rng based or its not and in this case getting kuva weapons IS rng based since as you said getting the lich for the weapon is rng.

 

On 2020-09-27 at 11:58 PM, S.Dust said:

 

DE is very flawed and is both good and horrible at listening to what players want they could be MUCH better but when the community is super happy to let things die so is DE people don't push for improvement they push for new content often. As far as Deimos goes it really isn't that big a grind since most of the rep is gained through mothers bounties and tokens can be stock piled if you really wanted to make it so you don't have to play the content too much. If you're just made you can't get what you want on day 1 what did you expect. Being real depending on your MR ranking all the way up could take maybe only about a week if you stay on top of it.

 

The biggest issue with DE is because they dont push for improvement regardless if the community lets it die or not. They NEED to improve while pushing for new content not giving the exact same content with a new look which adds more and more unnecessary grind. MR is completely meaningless at this point. You only need to get too about MR 15 to be able to use every weapon in the game other than that it serves no purpose. 

 

On 2020-09-27 at 11:58 PM, S.Dust said:

Then who are you to comment on it? I love commenting on DE's stuff and I don't think commenting on some content you haven't played is the worse thing but, if you're 2 years gone then clearly you're behind and it looks like way more to you than it does to anyone whos up to date.

So just because I havent played in 2 years means I cant comment on a game I've played for 4 years? Thats like saying a professional swimmer cant swim because they havent been in a competition in 2 years when they've been competing for 10. Im most definitely up to date. Watching all kinds of videos on WF from all varieties of youtubers big and small as well as watching my friends play. Dont assume just because I havent played the game myself in 2 years equates to me not knowing/being behind in information about said game.

Im commenting because i used to love this game and id love for DE to actually improve it to make it fun again. In its current state whether you want to admit it or not the game is not fun and feels more like a full time job rather than being a video game for people to enjoy. Yeah, yeah "grinding is fun" and "the grind isnt that bad" people who say this are lying to themselves. Grinding is fun sure when the rewards are worth it, but what reward in warframe is truly worth the ridiculous amount of grind that you have to go through? Kuva weapons? Sure they are good but to be honest not worth the overkill grind when there are other weapons which are easier to get that dont require you to burn out on needless grind. Rivens? To be honest rivens shouldnt have even been put into the game. They are really good and all but not really abundant aside from trade chat in which case pull out that credit card and be ready to break the bank because man are they over priced. I seriously would like to know what reward in warframe is truly worth the ridiculous amount grind. 

On 2020-09-27 at 11:58 PM, S.Dust said:

Goals change in a year and a half and adding new content isn't making the game more grindy it's adding more stuff to do. Obviously new content comes with a grind of sorts (have to put in some kind of work for stuff cant just rely on your resource stock pile as much as we'd love to), but that grind from what I've seen is less grindy than past content, and DE changed the way syndicate caps work in relation to MR so in that way they also made the syndicates in the game as a whole even less grindy. So they actually have done a bit of what they said they would. Could they do more sure but it's progress. 

The end goal should NEVER change. Its not new content if its already been in the game for a few years *cough cough* PoE *cough*. Reskinning old content and saying its new doesnt make it new content. HoD is the exact same as PoE and OoV. Just bounties and token collecting for standing. New content completely changes the game and how you play the game HoD does not do that at all. This is no way shape or form is progress. Syndicates at this point are meaningless since by now even new players have everything they need from the syndicates. 

 

On 2020-09-27 at 11:58 PM, S.Dust said:

One last note, Youtubers are always gonna be somewhat burned out they have to binge content unlike the average player or they'll just be releasing videos someone else probably already made, they have to play it faster than us so that they can inform us, warframe isn't a game that you post like a lets play of it just doesn't work, most videos are information based cause the only thing worth posting about warframe is news and builds , exception for when new quest come out.

Thats the thing its not just youtubers its alot of players yourself included whether you want to admit it or not. You can tell yourself that you're not burnt out but are you playing WF as much as you were before? (more than likely you're not but will say you are just cause) I agree youtubers will be burnt out quicker than the rest of the community but the over the top grind is killing the game. The reason (that everyone forgets) that WF is just a massive grind wheel is because its a sandbox game and wont ever be anything but a sandbox game which is what DE wanted. Thats good and all but with that means they HAVE to make NEW content not reskin the same thing over and over and over saying its "new".

To lessen the grind they should get rid of older things like the syndicates, make tokens for Poe, OoV, and HoD a guaranteed drop from bounties, significantly lessen the amount of larva needed to level murmurs would be a step in the right direction. THAT would be progress.  

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On 2020-09-27 at 8:42 PM, Invoky said:

Warframe is essential a MMO type of game. Comparing to other MMO, warframe isn't that grindy TBH. Look at those korean MMO like Black Desert.

The problem with WF is that there are alot of RNG involving. When players not receiving rewards for the time they spent, they feel like their effort gone wasted. But if you look at the progression as a whole, for example leveling an un-ranked warframe/weapon  comparing to like say WoW leveling from 0 to 80+. Warframe is waaaaay faster.

The RNG and repetitive gameplay is what make the game tedious. Get rid of those elements and you won't feel any grind.

Im sorry but warframe is not even in the realm of an MMO. MMO has raids, dungeons, events that require an 18 man party to complete, endgame. Warframe has nothing/is nothing like and MMO. Being able to chat with people around the world doesnt make WF an MMO, being able to play the same missions with 3 other people, doesnt make it an MMO, having a social hub doesnt make it an MMO. For christs sake CoD had a social hub and thats an FPS!

I agree with that last sentence though.

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Since Deimos is less grindy than previous open worlds they've succeeded at the goal of less grinding. Helminth can be said to be a massive grind, but I dont think it was ever intended as a sprint, but instead a marathon due to how it ties all the islands together. Deimos is a massive step in the right direction. I've had very little issues maxing things out and getting what I need/want, even when being on a WF "break" due to playing Avengers and having a bunch of personal things to attend to that takes as much time as a fulltime job since my father passed away from cancer 2 weeks ago. I've also done my whole Deimos grind 100% solo.

If people want something more easily achievable than the things on Deimos I can only assume they want it handled on a silver platter upon the first day of logging in.

And to be completely honest, I didnt even grind Deimos massively prior to Avengers releasing or the family matters happening either since I've had a bunch of TV-Shows/movies to catch up on aswell, like binge watching old Fringe, finishing S.H.I.E.L.D, watching a bunch of movies and getting up to speed with Lucifer (the show, not the pal down below). So I really wonder how quick and easy people want things if they think deimos is a grind.

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On 2020-09-27 at 11:16 PM, trst said:

That you think Deimos is nothing but a grind wall really shows you're just parroting opinions by click bait youtubers. Deimos is quite literally the least grindy major update yet. As well you have no actual experience with farming Liches if you think the mods are an issue; the murmurs are a problem but the mods are a non-factor.

Doing bounties for standing and tokens now where have I seen that..........OH YEAH!! in PoE AND OoV. So yes it IS just another grind wall. Dont really need physical experience farming liches when I see how long it takes others to farm them. Mods arent the biggest issue but the are an issue. They shouldnt have a set number of uses.

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Hey,

I recently actually made a cinematic quest.

It's not implemented or anything, but what it does is propose a set of new things:

- Another upgrade to Stalker (Don't lie Steel Pathians, that Stalker is literally getting oneshot through gating by you)

- Sun, Neutral and Moon options that affect the Dialogue and Actions (though only marginally, still more than they've done with the exception of two choices in The War Within)

- Brings back Dread, Stalker's Acolyte, temporarily (let's be honest, we need to see those Acolytes again sometime!)

- Elaborates and utilizes the Sentience of Excalibur Umbra (it was shown in The Sacrifice and then never used again - it's quintessential in this quest)

- (potentially, because I know some people do want this) allows you to take control of Shadow Stalker briefly, or even maybe unlock him as a 'frame' later on. (this may lead to problems which is why it's potential)

 

It's a relatively thought out quest. If anyone wants to read my synopsis and / or detailed rundown of it, please DM me and I'll be happy to oblige!

Depending on early player feedback, I will make a forum about it and maybe, maybe potentially get DE to consider it!

The quest isn't too grindy (though it does have the slightest repetition in missions) and offers a new boss fight similar to Hunhow in Octavia's Anthem (so, pretty much one time only (yes I know you can access the fight again through Ceph Suda in relays) but unique in a lot of ways)

Also, the cinematic quests are accessible too early in the game and The New War may also be like this. Players with access to Steel Path don't have anything cinematic to work towards - well, considering one of the quest prerequisites is Steel Path, this is addressed as well!

Please DM if you'd like a synopsis/breakdown of it.

Have a good day,

MakeThemBurn

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Im sorry but warframe is not even in the realm of an MMO. MMO has raids, dungeons, events that require an 18 man party to complete, endgame. Warframe has nothing/is nothing like and MMO. Being able to chat with people around the world doesnt make WF an MMO, being able to play the same missions with 3 other people, doesnt make it an MMO, having a social hub doesnt make it an MMO. For christs sake CoD had a social hub and thats an FPS!

I agree with that last sentence though.

That is likely not what he ment though since the loop is still like an MMO. To be fair the things you mention arent what defines MMO's either. They define a subgenre within MMOs but arent needed for a game to be an MMO. MMO is in reality simply the structural design of the game i.e server structure and the world. Gameplay mechanics are then another layer defining the subgenre or the acronym following MMO.

He also never said it was an MMO, just that it essentially is an MMO, which WF is in essence due to several of the systems that it shares with several different types of MMOs. Just like Destiny 2, Anthem, Diablo and several others share those same mechanics with MMOs without actually being MMOs. The gameplay loop and progression being those key features that they share most notably with MMORPGs. Though we cant say they share them with RPGs, since the gaas nature of the MMO genre is what alters alot of the loop in comparison to single player rpgs that are mostly finite experiences and not massive grinds.

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Each path you take to have fun must have some grind to it, regardless if it's new or old content and i can safely say that the grind heavily decreased.

Many resources you use in the game are plentifull in certain locations, yet you didn't have that option before. Endo for example, you didn't have 1000 endo rewards from bounties or statues, for credits, you didn't have index or profit taker, same can be said about many resources.

Since each avenue has grind, cutting the grind via platinum is great, so you see, you can easily play new updates by playing older updates, you can grind anything in the game, turn in a profit and then cut down the grind when new updates come out, which is why certain things (like a necramech), you can't buy your way into having one, DE always leaves some mandatory gameplay so that players don't just rush the content, because they know players with large quantities of platinum will make use of it when updates come out, so you want them to spend some platinum, not all of it.

My sugestion OP, enjoy the game 1st, grab a random mission and enjoy it, turn that mission into a profit and then when an update releases, decide where you want to cut the grind.

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14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since Deimos is less grindy than previous open worlds they've succeeded at the goal of less grinding. Helminth can be said to be a massive grind, but I dont think it was ever intended as a sprint, but instead a marathon due to how it ties all the islands together. Deimos is a massive step in the right direction. I've had very little issues maxing things out and getting what I need/want, even when being on a WF "break" due to playing Avengers and having a bunch of personal things to attend to that takes as much time as a fulltime job since my father passed away from cancer 2 weeks ago. I've also done my whole Deimos grind 100% solo.

If people want something more easily achievable than the things on Deimos I can only assume they want it handled on a silver platter upon the first day of logging in.

And to be completely honest, I didnt even grind Deimos massively prior to Avengers releasing or the family matters happening either since I've had a bunch of TV-Shows/movies to catch up on aswell, like binge watching old Fringe, finishing S.H.I.E.L.D, watching a bunch of movies and getting up to speed with Lucifer (the show, not the pal down below). So I really wonder how quick and easy people want things if they think deimos is a grind.

You are confusing the story grind with bounty, token, and resource grind. That was my bad I should have clarified. 

*Ahem* You are mistaken to think that HoD isnt another grind wall like PoE and OoV. Its the exact same thing a the other 2 open world areas. More resources to grind for, more bounties to do, more standing for another faction to get, more tokens to get on top of ALL old content resources and bounties and faction standing. Yeah totally NOT a grind wall and most certainly NOT more unnecessary grind.

Never said that grind is bad, BUT i DID say too much grind is bad which warframe has a severe case of too much bad grind.

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16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is likely not what he ment though since the loop is still like an MMO. To be fair the things you mention arent what defines MMO's either. They define a subgenre within MMOs but arent needed for a game to be an MMO. MMO is in reality simply the structural design of the game i.e server structure and the world. Gameplay mechanics are then another layer defining the subgenre or the acronym following MMO.

He also never said it was an MMO, just that it essentially is an MMO, which WF is in essence due to several of the systems that it shares with several different types of MMOs. Just like Destiny 2, Anthem, Diablo and several others share those same mechanics with MMOs without actually being MMOs. The gameplay loop and progression being those key features that they share most notably with MMORPGs. Though we cant say they share them with RPGs, since the gaas nature of the MMO genre is what alters alot of the loop in comparison to single player rpgs that are mostly finite experiences and not massive grinds.

Being "like" an MMO and being an MMO are different. Indeed WF has MMO systems in place im not denying that, but like you said the structural design and world creates an MMO an WF again fails at this. Gameplay is more akin to a looter shooter not an MMO, as well as theres no real progression. All you do is level weapons and frames wheres the progression? 

The things I listed are more akin to MMOs.

WF in essence is a looter shooter not an MMO despite the gameplay loop and progression.

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I got to almost 3rd rank of Necromech standing in about one week(Actualy I did just less than 10 runs).. While I got to second rank in Vox solaris (toroids..) standing only... yesterday. Almost same about Quills, since I play mostly solo, Eidolons is just worthless content for me.  I not grind much, I’m lazy, so I won’t threat seriously opinions of people who saying  about a lot of grinding  in deimos

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Real endgame: Raids, dungeons, world bosses

Real rewards worth it: Legendary weapons, Boss specific weapons, Legendary armor, Legendary artifacts

Those "real endgame" you mentioned are also some types of grind which are barriers from "real rewards worth it". And what will you use those end game rewards for? You use them for defeating raids, dungeons, and world bosses even quicker (you are grinding so you can grind better)!

So I still think that when players say that they want less grind in a game, is an indication that the grinds in that game aren't that fun, which is like what you said in one of your last posts:

6 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

...which warframe has a severe case of too much bad grind.

 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Real endgame: Raids, dungeons, world bosses

Real rewards worth it: Legendary weapons, Boss specific weapons, Legendary armor, Legendary artifacts

Is that all? And you're stuck with that basic "MMO" endgame and rewards where you grind for them but if you insist, we have some of them already

World bosses? We have them on each planet

Boss specific weapons? We have them

Legendary artifacts? We have arcanes

Legendary weapons and armor? Sorry, you're playing the wrong game, we don't have that "legendary" nonsense to keep a player grinding for legendary with low drop chance and that's a good thing because my braton isn't straight out obsolete when I get a weapon with higher rarity/stat

Dungeons? Our usual star chart mission

Raids? Yeah, no, when people don't want forced co-op and we have this public sortie spy fiasco, I don't think raids is needed

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On 2020-09-28 at 6:17 AM, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

"We want to make the game less of a grind for all players while trying to deliver new and exciting ways to make the game fun and enjoyable" DE Rebecca From a dev stream a year and a half ago. Well thanks for lying and blowing hot air up the entire communities butt. 

Imagine being so naive 🤣

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On 2020-09-28 at 6:52 PM, Corvid said:

Less grind =/= No grind.

Yet, as others have already said in this very thread, Deimos is the least grindy of the open worlds by far.

Perhaps you should hire better journalists.

It may technically require the least amount of standing rewards but look at the bugs, the quality of gameplay, the purposefully included stealth time sinks  and lack of direction in the vaults that Doom mentions.

Warframe used to be about fluid movement, effortless combat, and ENTERTAINING timesinks.

The grind and RnG seemlessly resolved themselves when players had a GOOD time putting in the time.

This isn’t about length of grind.

This is about having a quality gameplay experience for the time invested in said grind.

Having to suffer “content” for the next set of rewards as a way to incentivize people to pay to get through them or bypass them isn’t a long-term recipe for success.

 

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DE has such good PR.

When EA or Activision lie to your face by telling you what you want to hear everyone goes, "They are clearly lying". So when they do the opposite of what they said or fail to deliver nobody is surprised. But because DE makes an hour long video every few months where they are charismatic everyone just eats their garbage three meals a day.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Being "like" an MMO and being an MMO are different. Indeed WF has MMO systems in place im not denying that, but like you said the structural design and world creates an MMO an WF again fails at this. Gameplay is more akin to a looter shooter not an MMO, as well as theres no real progression. All you do is level weapons and frames wheres the progression? 

The things I listed are more akin to MMOs.

WF in essence is a looter shooter not an MMO despite the gameplay loop and progression.

Well yeah but he said essentially. And that is true since WF could, with a change in how it handles population and servers be an MMO, but the guy you quoted never touched that part of MMOs, just that the grind or well loop of the game is similar or more or less identic to that of MMOs in general. Which he is correct in, since that loop is something spawned mostly from MMOs and later on also used in other gaas type games. The progression in WF comes much in the form of the progression in BDO, both being games where you level and upgrade items with no real ties to the level of your character.

However, the term MMO gets more widespread as the years go on since we now have MMOs tied to nearly every genre/subgenre on the market, from racing and sports to skill based fps tactical "Battlefield" shooters. But since we are playing WF, the term MMO is the most descriptive and easily used term since we know people mean MMORPG or MMOARPG when they say MMO here, since WF is a gaas arpg/looter shooter. I dont think anyone here implies that WF is similar to an MMO racing or soccer game when they say it is essentially an MMO.

Now dont get me wrong, WF is definently not an MMO, but it does share alot with several MMO games on the market, it just doesnt have the server or world structure that actually differentiates an MMO from other GAAS games.

 

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8 hours ago, Hardwood said:

DE has such good PR.

When EA or Activision lie to your face by telling you what you want to hear everyone goes, "They are clearly lying". So when they do the opposite of what they said or fail to deliver nobody is surprised. But because DE makes an hour long video every few months where they are charismatic everyone just eats their garbage three meals a day.

Not everyone, just the same naive people that continue to build a fantasy in their heads. Like the people that thought they were really gonna be able to subsume ultimates and felt "betrayed" and let down by DE lol.

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