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On 2020-09-29 at 3:01 PM, Azamagon said:

Related to Xaku, but is more encompassing:

Could we get a new and more modern way to cast "cycle"-abilities (such as The Lost on Xaku, Quiver on Ivara, Minelayer on Vauban etc)?

Right now, they are FAR too clunky to meddle with, often making - at least myself - just stick to the best ability among the "cycle" options (which is generally Gaze, in Xaku's case). What I propose is this:

TLDR; Activating the "cycle"-ability now opens a small menu close to the crosshair for about five seconds. For Xaku, that means press 3. Now press 1, 2 or 3 to cast Accuse, Gaze or Deny respectively. Press 5 or Escape to close the menu quickly.

So much this. Ability wheels need fixing across the board, they're too slow for the pace of this game.

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I really hope recasting Grasp of Lohk grabs new guns with the round 2 changes. Because if I’m not mistaken, it will actually be a huge nerf to Xaku if they can’t refresh their turret’s level to match the new enemies level.
 

Please don’t make it work like Nekros’ shadows. In order for the shadows to scale, they have to die before you can get a new one. This defeats the whole purpose of using Vast Untime, because then your turrets will start to fall off. DE please keep this in consideration!

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On 2020-10-01 at 7:44 AM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's one method out of many, seeing as heavy attack builds are already used (gunblades, reaper prime etc). 

Another method requires actually using the other tools available to you and diversifying your arsenal. You have mods and arcanes to increase survivability, you have the movement system which the developers have stated is supposed to be used by rewarding us to be mobile, you have multiple forms of CC, The Vast Untime and Xakus passive etc. 

Were you expecting to face tank level 500 enemies or something? 

 

Or I can just play a frame who doesn’t require me to completely uproot my mod set up just to patch up one of several issues with Xaku.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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39 minutes ago, (XB1)Damizza said:

I really hope recasting Grasp of Lohk grabs new guns with the round 2 changes. Because if I’m not mistaken, it will actually be a huge nerf to Xaku if they can’t refresh their turret’s level to match the new enemies level.
 

Please don’t make it work like Nekros’ shadows. In order for the shadows to scale, they have to die before you can get a new one. This defeats the whole purpose of using Vast Untime, because then your turrets will start to fall off. DE please keep this in consideration!

......Did you try reading the very first post? It was made by a person that works for DE. They're telling us all about the cool changes they've made :)

 

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On 2020-10-01 at 7:52 AM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

"Especially when Xatas Whisper is already perfectly balanced for Eidolons hunts."

How is Xatas whisper, which is enhanced by Vast Untime....balanced for eidolons when it does a percentage of total weapon damage that is affected by base damage, critical, elemental, and faction damage mods? Are you unaware of how insane that damage would get?

It deals a % of your weapons total damage. Meaning at base you’ll deal about 1/4 of your total damage to Eidolons shields, since the rest of your damage will be ineffective. And I’m pretty sure Eidolons are immune to abilities so Untimes void damage debuff isn’t going to do anything.

Dealing massively reduced damage in exchange for having the ability to use your normal weapons against the Eidolons is a more than fair trade off.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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On 2020-09-29 at 11:00 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

The Lost: Gaze

  • Increased base radius from 8m to 12m.

Could other Gaze-like abilities receive something like this? These stationary  abilities that are cast on an enemy target are range-bound, duration based, and also scale off of strength. Gaze needed Vast Untime for better duration and now will have increased base range, these other abilities also feel very unmoddable, you end up having them be very mediocre or having to ignore some of their features. They all have the same 8m range and <20s duration, not so comfortable to work around with. 

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On 2020-10-01 at 11:43 AM, Krankbert said:

If you think Xaku is super squishy, you're playing and/or building him wrong.

1. The build required to make Xakus abilities actually function doesn’t leave much room for health mods.

2. Even with my build that has survivability mods I get rekt by stray bullets. It’s actually incredibly depressing to watch.

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

......Did you try reading the very first post? It was made by a person that works for DE. They're telling us all about the cool changes they've made :)

 

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know Danielle was the designer working on balance changes at DE. /s

What was even the point of @ me with something as stupid as this? lol

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On 2020-09-30 at 8:39 PM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The operator controls the frame. Without the operator, the frame is an empty shell with nothing powering it. That's why it just sits there and doesn't do anything. Like you said....the frames power comes from the operator. Does the warframe enter the Necromech and power it with its warframe abilities? No....that's the operator, again. 

The operator has to come out of the shell and use it's own concentrated natural void essence to take the eidolons shield down. 

The void itself is the origin of the Tennos powers, not the warframes. It was the Tenno that were sent out on the Zariman and infected with void powers, not the frames.....Xaku wasn't in the Zariman 10-0, was it?

 

"The Void is a mysterious realm of extradimensional space, where the laws of physics hold little sway. It is the source of many mysterious phenomena, such as Void storms, and the origin of the Tenno's powers."

 

  Hi. Warframes are tools no?, So are Amps, Why do you give in to the capacity of Amps to concentrate void energy but not Warframes?, There's really no reason lore wise a specific frame can not have the capacity to concentrate the void energy of what it's actually very connected to, It's Operator. There's about one abstract statement that tells: "The Eidolon is no common beast of the Plains, And cannot be laid low with the tools of an everyday hunter, These 'amps' focus the user's will into a killing beam", As mentioned, There's really no particular exclusion here of other "tools", Just that Amps do focus the "user's will", it can be very possible that another tool that is not your "everyday" tool, be it a special Warframe, Can concentrate the void energy of an operator as well, And I think that's the point you missed from the prior person.

"The operator has to come out of the shell and use it's own concentrated natural void essence to take the eidolons shield down."

  Again there's really no lore reason I could find that would substantiate that. We could truly forgo lore that is on that trivial of a level in any matter(It's lore that is indicated by one phrasing or three at most), You see... the specimen "Retroactive Continuity" is a very abused one for a reason in fiction, Once lore gets in the way of making something much more interesting(We could argue about that if you want, It would be more interesting) you may as well forgo it.

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Boost the abilities base damage , range and defense reduction dramaticly or do as you always do and just forget about it .

p.s. before someone goes "OMGHZ it'll be OP " , have you played Mesa Saryn Octavia recently ? Yeah exactly .

Edited by Spectre-8
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7 minutes ago, No2Yes said:

  Hi. Warframes are tools no?, So are Amps, Why do you give in to the capacity of Amps to concentrate void energy but not Warframes?, There's really no reason lore wise a specific frame can not have the capacity to concentrate the void energy of what it's actually very connected to, It's Operator. There's about one abstract statement that tells: "The Eidolon is no common beast of the Plains, And cannot be laid low with the tools of an everyday hunter, These 'amps' focus the user's will into a killing beam", As mentioned, There's really no particular exclusion here of other "tools", Just that Amps do focus the "user's will", it can be very possible that another tool that is not your "everyday" tool, be it a special Warframe, Can concentrate the void energy of an operator as well, And I think that's the point you missed from the prior person.

"The operator has to come out of the shell and use it's own concentrated natural void essence to take the eidolons shield down."

  Again there's really no lore reason I could find that would substantiate that. We could truly forgo lore that is on that trivial of a level in any matter(It's lore that is indicated by one phrasing or three at most), You see... the specimen "Retroactive Continuity" is a very abused one for a reason in fiction, Once lore gets in the way of making something much more interesting(We could argue about that if you want, It would be more interesting) you may as well forgo it.

I provided lore reason as well as logical reason, in my posts....like the one you quoted for example.

Like someone that tried to counter me suggested: even without the amp, the operator still damages the eidolons shield. 

The operator is the one with the true void power, as it was the one on the Zariman ship that fateful day. 

"The Tenno are the faction controlled by the players. Each player is a Tenno with a suit of biomechanical armor called a Warframe."

It honestly seems pretty cut and dry. 

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Hey, thanks for these upcoming changes!

Did a test in the simulacrum and noticed that Accused enemies won't follow Xaku if they also had their weapons stolen. They kinda just wander aimlessly if there is no one to fight around them. Enemies with their original weapons followed Xaku after they were done fighting whoever was nearby. Would be a great help if my entourage wanted to stay my entourage XD

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I provided lore reason as well as logical reason, in my posts....like the one you quoted for example.

Like someone that tried to counter me suggested: even without the amp, the operator still damages the eidolons shield. 

The operator is the one with the true void power, as it was the one on the Zariman ship that fateful day. 

"The Tenno are the faction controlled by the players. Each player is a Tenno with a suit of biomechanical armor called a Warframe."

It honestly seems pretty cut and dry. 

  Hmm, Did you really read what I said?, At no point do I say the Operator does not hold "the true void power", Neither did the prior person reject that, In fact we both rely on that lore bit to some extent, To tell you that relying on operator's just as Amps do, a tool such as a Warframe same as an Amp could be used as well to concentrate the void energy of the Operator(s), You continuously seem to make that mistake, The one phrasing I quoted was the one you said in your prior posts, Which was the only relevant one to the points being made, Let me make this clearer.

  The "Prior person" refers to the person that told(And I will quote the relevant bits): "Considering that frames work with the operators power. In a sense the frame focus their power. So a frame using actual void damage wouldn't be or shouldn't be surprising and impossible."

  You after seeing that reply with: "The operator controls the frame. Without the operator, the frame is an empty shell with nothing powering it. That's why it just sits there and doesn't do anything. Like you said....the frames power comes from the operator. Does the warframe enter the Necromech and power it with its warframe abilities? No....that's the operator, again.", These quotes largely do not contradict each other, And it's not just because I quoted specific parts, In fact your reply as a whole to his is what seems like a disagreement but it's actually an agreement.

  His axiom was essentially: "Warframes are shells for operators", but while you repeat that axiom he uses it to conclude that a frame thusly can be seen as some sort of Amp as well.

  I do hope you put more effort into this than just repeating that axiom then concluding "It honestly seems pretty cut and dry".

 

 

Edited by No2Yes
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i understand these are meant to focus on xaku's power changes and all but i also hope in the future some kind of option or additional warframe cosmetics meant for xaku will also work or have some visibility/effect on them when their vast untime is active. especially with evasion builds that will likely have vast untime always up. i know it's nothing game breaking or necessary, but with so many cosmetics, it'd be rad to have more options than just what helmet and skeleton color for xaku you are using.

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14 minutes ago, No2Yes said:

  Hmm, Did you really read what I said?, At no point do I say the operator does not hold "the true void power", Neither did the prior person reject that, in fact we both rely on that lore bit to some extent, To tell you that relying on operator's just as Amps do, a tool such as a Warframe same as an Amp could be used as well to concentrate the void energy of the Operator(s), You continuously seem to make that mistake, The one phrasing I quoted was the one you said in your prior posts, Which was the only relevant one to the points being made, Let me make this clearer.

  The "Prior person" refers to the person that told(And I will quote the relevant bits): "Considering that frames work with the operators power. In a sense the frame focus their power. So a frame using actual void damage wouldn't be or shouldn't be surprising and impossible."

  You after seeing that reply with: "The operator controls the frame. Without the operator, the frame is an empty shell with nothing powering it. That's why it just sits there and doesn't do anything. Like you said....the frames power comes from the operator. Does the warframe enter the Necromech and power it with its warframe abilities? No....that's the operator, again.", These quotes largely do not contradict each other, And it's not just because I quoted specific parts, In fact your reply as a whole to his is what seems like a disagreement but it's actually an agreement.

  His axiom was essentially: "Warframes are shells for operators", but while you repeat that axiom he uses it to conclude that a frame thusly can be seen as some sort of Amp as well.

  I do hope you put more effort into this than just repeating that axiom than concluding "it honestly seems pretty cut and dry".

 

 

That same person that said Xatas whisper was "perfectly balanced"? Sure. 

I hope you put more effort into this as well. Here we are in the Xaku rework and buffing thread, yet there's no mention of pre-nerfing him to deal with the inevitable fallout of allowing moddable frame/weapon damage on an eidolon.

So when this happens, I shouldn't see you in the future threads being upset that Xaku was nerfed, correct? Are you in favor of pre-nerfing Xaku? We might as well do it now while they're working on it, right?

Do you think DE just randomly and without thought prevented Xaku from damaging the eidolons, for absolutely no reason at all? Or do you think they wanted to avoid the clear and obvious fallout from allowing it, releasing Xaku, and subsequently nerfing 3/4ths of his kit just because a small handful of people couldn't bother to farm some focus and level an amp? 

Details matter, sorry. You can't just use vague wording like "make it much more interesting" and call it a day.

The operator is a part of the gameplay. They're working on content where the operator is the main focus of the story....And it actually already is/was a part of the main story. 

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

That same person that said Xatas whisper was "perfectly balanced"? Sure. 

I hope you put more effort into this as well. Here we are in the Xaku rework and buffing thread, yet there's no mention of pre-nerfing him to deal with the inevitable fallout of allowing moddable frame/weapon damage on an eidolon.

So when this happens, I shouldn't see you in the future threads being upset that Xaku was nerfed, correct? Are you in favor of pre-nerfing Xaku? We might as well do it now while they're working on it, right?

Do you think DE just randomly and without thought prevented Xaku from damaging the eidolons, for absolutely no reason at all? Or do you think they wanted to avoid the clear and obvious fallout from allowing it, releasing Xaku, and subsequently nerfing 3/4ths of his kit just because a small handful of people couldn't bother to farm some focus and level an amp? 

Details matter, sorry. You can't just use vague wording like "make it much more interesting" and call it a day.

The operator is a part of the gameplay. They're working on content where the operator is the main focus of the story....And it actually already is/was a part of the main story. 

 

  I don't think it's relevant to bring what other things he has said if even that is what he said, I talked around his axiom and about your repetition of it, And it's conclusion, Rather than try to bring his opinion down with a "Sure" comment, I think you should actually reply to what I mostly mentioned, Say... for example... does it make at least some level of sense?, The conclusion of the prior axiom.

  I told you earlier about what you quoted to some accuracy, That is: "Once lore gets in the way of making something much more interesting(We could argue about that if you want, It would be more interesting) you may as well forgo it", Do you actually want to have an exchange about how following the conclusion in a correct way leads to interest?(That is: Not to just implement the conclusion and make modded weapons deal 26%+ void damage but that also does not mean we have to pre-nerf him), I do understand the simplex solution DE choose and that is why I am talking about this, The details are important, But unless we agree on the thing that bases the discussion(That is: Warframes using some level of Operator centered void energy is not impossible by the use of these very Operators), They are not to be discussed first.

  Again you like to mention the importance of Operators, Again I do not disagree, And I hope I am putting enough effort into this, I do not despise you, I hope you do not for my case, I mention that so that we both can exchange and profit from each other's thoughts more efficiently.

 

Edited by No2Yes
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On 2020-09-29 at 5:10 PM, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

It's not really void damage if it does not affect eidolons now is it? 

The feels when this gets more likes than the main post...
It should be allowed for the sake of build diversity and not being forced into a very narrow selection of builds and setups to hunt eidolons without it feeling like it's just taking forever and get bored from tickling it with amp. It's also only the extra void damage. People are already doing the hunts in basically "time it takes to wait for the forced cutscenes" so why would balance even be an issue anyway...

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52 minutes ago, No2Yes said:

  I don't think it's relevant to bring what other things he has said if even that is what he said, I talked around his axiom and about your repetition of it, And it's conclusion, Rather than try to bring his opinion down with a "Sure" comment, I think you should actually reply to what I mostly mentioned, Say... for example... does it make at least some level of sense?, The conclusion of the prior axiom.

  I told you earlier about what you quoted to some accuracy, That is: "Once lore gets in the way of making something much more interesting(We could argue about that if you want, It would be more interesting) you may as well forgo it", Do you actually want to have an exchange about how following the conclusion in a correct way leads to interest?(That is: Not to just implement the conclusion and make modded weapons deal 26%+ void damage but that also does not mean we have to pre-nerf him), I do understand the simplex solution DE choose and that is why I am talking about this, The details are important, But unless we agree on the thing that bases the discussion(That is: Warframes using some level of Operator centered void energy is not impossible by the use of these very Operators), They are not to be discussed first.

  Again you like to mention the importance of Operators, Again I do not disagree, And I hope I am putting enough effort into this, I do not despise you, I hope you do not for my case, I mention that so that we both can exchange and profit from each other's thoughts more efficiently.

 

Does it make some level of sense: 

No, it does not. 

Do you know how it could make sense? If frames were sentient beings imbued with their own esoteric void essence, like the children present on the Zariman 10-0.

There's not much else to say. 

If you would like Xakus void damage to affect the shields, Xakus abilities will be nerfed, and let me explain why, for a second time: 

Xata's Whisper VoidTearIcon b Void damage is based on a percentage of the total weapon damage.

This means Sacrificial mods, along with the examples of the mods above....wow, that would go splendidly with a Stropha or Redeemer Prime, even better if it had a riven.....

Hey, here we go again: 

"Death and decay encroach as Xaku detonates themselves, by expending 100 energy to explosively fragment their body parts outward. Enemies within direct line of sight and 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters of Xaku receive 600 / 800 / 1,000 / 1,200 VoidTearIcon b Void damage from the blast; affected enemies also suffer 50% VoidTearIcon b Void damage vulnerability."

And once again: 

"Enemies struck directly or within a 1.5 meters radius from Deny's Void beam receive 1,000 / 2,000 / 3,000 / 4,000 VoidTearIcon b Void damage"

 

Hmmmm, I'm curious....let's check up on just how much health an eidolons shield has. We'll use the Hydrolyst since that's the hardest one: 

Shield: 54,215

Sweet, so if I get a group of 3 Xakus (and a trinity to heal the lures), all with Redeemers and Strophas, built for heavy attacks, then have 1 Xaku pop his 4.....I could probably take that shield down pretty fast now couldn't I? 

 

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32 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Does it make some level of sense: 

No, it does not. 

Do you know how it could make sense? If frames were sentient beings imbued with their own esoteric void essence, like the children present on the Zariman 10-0.

There's not much else to say. 

If you would like Xakus void damage to affect the shields, Xakus abilities will be nerfed, and let me explain why, for a second time: 

Xata's Whisper VoidTearIcon b Void damage is based on a percentage of the total weapon damage.

This means Sacrificial mods, along with the examples of the mods above....wow, that would go splendidly with a Stropha or Redeemer Prime, even better if it had a riven.....

Hey, here we go again: 

"Death and decay encroach as Xaku detonates themselves, by expending 100 energy to explosively fragment their body parts outward. Enemies within direct line of sight and 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters of Xaku receive 600 / 800 / 1,000 / 1,200 VoidTearIcon b Void damage from the blast; affected enemies also suffer 50% VoidTearIcon b Void damage vulnerability."

And once again: 

"Enemies struck directly or within a 1.5 meters radius from Deny's Void beam receive 1,000 / 2,000 / 3,000 / 4,000 VoidTearIcon b Void damage"

 

Hmmmm, I'm curious....let's check up on just how much health an eidolons shield has. We'll use the Hydrolyst since that's the hardest one: 

Shield: 54,215

Sweet, so if I get a group of 3 Xakus (and a trinity to heal the lures), all with Redeemers and Strophas, built for heavy attacks, then have 1 Xaku pop his 4.....I could probably take that shield down pretty fast now couldn't I? 

 

  I don't think it is useful to talk about the possibilities at hand that you think of as impossible in the fictional universe, Lets put the "detail" conversation farther for a little while, I can assure you there's workarounds at least in my head, And I am not one that thinks balance is of utter uselessness, Say even if Eidolons are very easy to do as of current, I think balance should be here in this context for at least future content that could make use of Void damage.

  Lets instead bring ourselves faster into a ground where we could actually discuss the details with usefulness in mind for both sides, Thusly consider the following: If you think that Warframes must be "sentient beings imbued with their own esoteric void essence" in order to deal some amount of void damage that is based on Operators, Then you must also think that Amps are "sentient beings imbued with their own esoteric void essence", No information lore wise even implies this, Amps are named "Amps" I assume as in short for "Amplifiers", No sort of thing imbued with it's own prowess, the closest to even just implying this is this piece of information: "These 'amps' focus the user's will into a killing beam, capable of eventually bringing one of these monstrosities down.", I assume you don't want to assume that what is meant by "focus the user's will" is somehow correlated to the Amp having void prowess of it's own, As well as that all is said is that to bring the Eidolons down the 'user's will' must be focused at most as an implication, No real need for a tool of it's own void capacity to output void damage by the proxy that is Operators, All is the same with the conclusion at hand, Just consider the Warframe as an Amp, No prowess of it's own, It just moves the Void energy from an A point to a B point, Again also consider that Operators and Warframes are in fact very connected by the use of the Void energy in specific already, Knowing the lore, This other sentence I found: "The Amp is an extension of your will.", You could in fact replace the word "Amp" there with "Warframe", And it would make no difference in accuracy.

  Hoping we reached a similar ground I do wish to get into the "details" on a later schedule, If you still desire that is.

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RE: Gaze

To effectively use Gaze Xaku requires more power strength than any other abilities,  It would make Xaku more healthy to increase the base defense reduction.  Bumping it up from 50% to 70% would make Gaze more useable.

RE: Grasp of Lohk

While it's nice that the weapons will stop shooting at invulnerable enemies, and I fully understand not wanting to make the game stationary, the solution here might be to tie number of weapons to power strength instead of range.  Currently the range increasing number of weapons is counter productive to the expressed goal of not having another World on Fire.  The fact that grab range and fire range are so vastly different also poisons the desirability of the weapon.  I also see a poor decision in not allowing Xata's Whisper to further buff the damage on Grasp of Lohk, which also removes some potential synergy.

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Xata's Whisper still feels so weak. the other abilities its compared to are much stronger. unless im missing something. even Toxic Lash adds double the effect to melee. Even with the Debuff granted by Vast Untime it doesn't feel great. its really strange that their main unique feature "void damage " isn't stronger. the true neutral damage seemed to help but its still really underwhelming to use Xata's Whisper 

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So nobody will mention one of the most needed fixes? Lohk weapons still go under the floor after a certain amount of targets... Click to cast hold to swap is a lot smoother than the opposite.

Literally just make the weapons start at his head then go down left then right, or start at around his ankle amd go up left then right. Both would look cool and be functional... 

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Does it make some level of sense: 

No, it does not. 

Do you know how it could make sense? If frames were sentient beings imbued with their own esoteric void essence, like the children present on the Zariman 10-0.

There's not much else to say. 

If you would like Xakus void damage to affect the shields, Xakus abilities will be nerfed, and let me explain why, for a second time: 

Xata's Whisper VoidTearIcon b Void damage is based on a percentage of the total weapon damage.

This means Sacrificial mods, along with the examples of the mods above....wow, that would go splendidly with a Stropha or Redeemer Prime, even better if it had a riven.....

Hey, here we go again: 

"Death and decay encroach as Xaku detonates themselves, by expending 100 energy to explosively fragment their body parts outward. Enemies within direct line of sight and 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters of Xaku receive 600 / 800 / 1,000 / 1,200 VoidTearIcon b Void damage from the blast; affected enemies also suffer 50% VoidTearIcon b Void damage vulnerability."

And once again: 

"Enemies struck directly or within a 1.5 meters radius from Deny's Void beam receive 1,000 / 2,000 / 3,000 / 4,000 VoidTearIcon b Void damage"

 

Hmmmm, I'm curious....let's check up on just how much health an eidolons shield has. We'll use the Hydrolyst since that's the hardest one: 

Shield: 54,215

Sweet, so if I get a group of 3 Xakus (and a trinity to heal the lures), all with Redeemers and Strophas, built for heavy attacks, then have 1 Xaku pop his 4.....I could probably take that shield down pretty fast now couldn't I? 

 

Xaku doesn't effect eidolons?? They made his void damage inefficient against them. Only way to take shields out is with your tenno

Edited by (XB1)IMABEMEOUTLAW
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