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Upcoming Xaku Changes: Round 2!


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On 2020-10-09 at 3:29 PM, vFlitz said:

I took Xaku for the Umbra Forma blueprint alert just now, and the experience proved to be quite enlightening.

As a frame that focuses quite heavily on affecting enemies and area control, they are rendered helpless if enemies are capable of doing harm outside the sphere of influence dictated by ability range. Before, having played Xaku mostly in indoors tilesets, I didn't really see any issue with the current targeting range on Grasp of Lohk. Now I believe that it absolutely should be increased at least in the direction Xaku is looking at. That way the ability isn't fully autonomous but Xaku gets a way to do something to enemies that keep out of range.

Furthermore, what is even the point of Gaze requiring an enemy target to be cast? It doesn't really offer anything thematically, and in practice it's an extreme hindrance. Allies and your own guns from GoL constantly kill enemies you're trying to Gaze before the ability actually takes effect, so usually you  can only actually pull it off on an eximus or something unusually tanky like Nox. Yet eximus units under the effect of Gaze still have their auras active for whatever reason? I just accidentally drained my entire squad's energy by keeping a Gazed Energy Leech around.

One handy trick is that if you Gaze an enemy that's been Accused beforehand, they start drawing enemy fire, sort of like Decoy. That's a rather considerable boon both to Xaku's own survivability and their ability to defend an objective, particularly since enemy target acquisition isn't dictated by ability range.. however, ironically in Defense missions where it would help most, it appears to stop waves from progressing. Also, an already Gazed enemy can't be Accused to achieve that effect, which is another inconvenience.

Finally, Xaku is heavily pushed into using efficiency as a dump stat due to being fully duration-based, as well as having high requirements for range and strength to be effective. Thanks to Vast Untime pausing other abilities, this mostly works out. Mostly. The Lost should have different costs for its sub-abilities. The current one of 75 is fine for Gaze considering how handy removing 100% of enemy defenses in an area can be, but Accuse and Deny are both less potent and require more frequent casting.

Abbreviated list of suggestions: 

  • Give Grasp of Lohk increased targeting range in a cone around the aiming reticle
  • Make Gaze castable on empty ground as a QoL option, but keep the original option of disabling a targeted enemy
  • Make Gaze and Accuse synergize to create decoys no matter which one is cast first, and fix it breaking Defense missions
  • Make Accuse and Deny cheaper (probably something like 50 and 25, respectively)

Now I brought Xaku to that alert and ended up struggling the whole time because I never had enough energy to cast my grossly expensive abilities.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Now I brought Xaku to that alert and ended up struggling the whole time because I never had enough energy to cast my grossly expensive abilities.

Yep, Xaku requires energize to be good. Any frame that requires Energize to not be trash is a bad frame in my opinion. I don't really like Arcane Energize existing either. I would prefer if it did what the tooltip said and gave all allies 25 energy from energy orbs and you got nothing.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Now I brought Xaku to that alert and ended up struggling the whole time because I never had enough energy to cast my grossly expensive abilities.

Have you ever put one of: (primed) flow, efficiency or continuity? It's understandable that rank <30 will be weaker than rank 30 frame.

10 minutes ago, Velitria said:

Yep, Xaku requires energize to be good. Any frame that requires Energize to not be trash is a bad frame in my opinion. I don't really like Arcane Energize existing either. I would prefer if it did what the tooltip said and gave all allies 25 energy from energy orbs and you got nothing.

It doesn't need energize. I got it the Energize on rank 0 or 1 afair (which is nothing!). Continuity/Flow/Efficiency should be fine. Sure it's far from the best but don't make it trash.

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

Have you ever put one of: (primed) flow, efficiency or continuity? It's understandable that rank <30 will be weaker than rank 30 frame.

It doesn't need energize. I got it the Energize on rank 0 or 1 afair (which is nothing!). Continuity/Flow/Efficiency should be fine. Sure it's far from the best but don't make it trash.

I had both primed flow and primed Continuity on. The fact that the mission was littered with energy leech eximus meant my energy rarely went over 100. And since like 3 of Xakus abilities cost over 100 when they are modded for said abilities to be effective. That doesn’t exactly leave me in an ideal spot.

Also, console doesn’t even have the first round of Xaku buffs. So keep that in mind.

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13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I had both primed flow and primed Continuity on. The fact that the mission was littered with energy leech eximus meant my energy rarely went over 100. And since like 3 of Xakus abilities cost over 100 when they are modded for said abilities to be effective. That doesn’t exactly leave me in an ideal spot.

Also, console doesn’t even have the first round of Xaku buffs. So keep that in mind.

That's explain everything. Except 1st (Xata's Whisper) and maybe Gaze, the abilities are very demanding.
I cannot wait for the 2nd upgrade to the Xaku, and yet you guys don't even have 1st...

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2 hours ago, quxier said:

Have you ever put one of: (primed) flow, efficiency or continuity? It's understandable that rank <30 will be weaker than rank 30 frame.

It doesn't need energize. I got it the Energize on rank 0 or 1 afair (which is nothing!). Continuity/Flow/Efficiency should be fine. Sure it's far from the best but don't make it trash.

It is not nothing to have even a rank 0. Energize gives over a hundred energy plus the energy orb. Try playing without it and you'll see what he means. Trash is the consideration when something is better than another and there is no reason to use that thing, it may be good, but it is trash by comparison. I consider anything that requires Energize to be trash because frames that don't require energize are just better designed.

Edited by Velitria
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2 hours ago, Velitria said:

Try playing without it and you'll see what he means.

I've tried to farm the last Nidus part (thanks, got the last one :D) and I see no difference. Just 67% duration, 160% efficiency, 100% range and 175% strength and only +50% energy (the Flow on rank 1).
Sure, with my need to spam a lot of their 2 it would probably require maxed Flow or something.

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just tested deny on steelpath with 11 guns and 195 power strength. the damage is horrible. like negligible. gaze obviously helps. but your grasp of lohk will kill them faster and cheaper. I really don't see a point in the ability. you can just use accuse if you need a cc

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On 2020-09-29 at 11:00 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Note on Grasp of Lohk’s ‘Target Range’: 

  • In Round 1, we made the distinction between Grasp of Lohk’s ‘Grab Range’ and ‘Target Range’. We then increased its ‘Grab Range’ and left ‘Target Range’ untouched due to “firing range experiments being a bit too wild for Round 1”. As we’ve continued testing, this has held true. In any instance where we’ve increased it, even slightly, we neared a state that we had already established was undesirable due to its encouragement of an ‘inactive’ way of playing (Ember’s “World on Fire” comes to mind before it was changed to “Inferno”). As a result, ‘Target Range’ will continue to remain untouched for this round.

 

This obsession of yours really needs to stop, as it is actively hurting frames that have some kind of set and forget or passive functionality. Don't design abilities like this unless you're going to allow them to function as they need to in order to be competitive. Yes, this means it's not going to be very active. Make his OTHER abilities active. This ability literally makes weapons that shoot for you. It's not SUPPOSED to be active, you didn't design it as such. Gimping its stats wont change this fact, it'll only render it worthless or convoluted.

I really don't understand what you think is so much better about the design of Inferno compared to WoF. It's literally just a more powerful version of WoF where you hit 4 repeatedly to build up Ember's other synergies. It's not a bad design, it fits the frame, but it's barely more "active" than WoF was, and it shows how arbitrary and pointless this distinction is in the grand scheme of things.

Meanwhile frames like Zephyr are wilting in the corner, despite having a playstyle that by design is more active than most frames you've come up with. Zephyr seems to be everything you want a frame to be, based off this obsession with things being "active," by design no less, not shoehorned in through awkward balancing attempts... And yet all of her abilities besides _maybe_ her 3 scale like hot garbage, and she has all sorts of mechanical and usability problems, not least of which is her tornados not being controllable as they are supposed to be.

This same obsession makes frames like Protea lackluster and difficult to build, and most importantly frustrating to play. Yet at the same time your arbitrary standards seem to be completely out to lunch for Wukong's clone, which is probably a good thing, given his other damage tool was nerfed into the ground. Tricks and damage output with his clone is about all Wukong is good for now (that and speed capture I guess), despite clearly being meant as a mobile exalted melee focused frame.

You guys need to stop obsessing over things being active and get your priorities straight. You're so hyper focused on this one thing you perceive as a problem that you create or ignore a thousand other problems in the process of trying to fix this one thing that really, nobody besides you cares about. You have all these active frames already at your disposal that are just statistically bad and here you are sitting in the corner measuring every inch of Xaku's 2. You are better than this.

You want the game as a whole to be more active, maybe take a look at bringing back Staff Wukong, or look at making frames like Zephyr scale such that they're worth using in Steel Path and other high end content. Or maybe look at Hydroid, a frame who becomes active through synergies between his more passive and more active skills. Hydroid has all these tricks he can do, but everyone just plays him as a summon kracken and loot bot because his synergies are energy expensive and unrewarding to use.

Edited by XaoGarrent
Wrong Xaku
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After playing with Xaku quite a lot, here are my ideas on how to make him more active and better (if the changes on round 2 are applied).

First thing I would do is to swap places for The Lost and Grasp of Lohk.

Alright, here goes:

1. Xata's Whisper

Remains as is


2. The Lost - Energy 50

Accuse

Remains as is.

Gaze

Make it castable on the ground that acts as an invisible line of sight orb that searches and captures an enemy that's hiding behind cover or a wall. This makes the ability easier to aim.

Also, increase casting speed.

Minimum detection range: 3m (can't be modded)

Deny

Added another synergy with Grasp of Lohk. Check SYNERGIES part.


3. Grasp of Lohk - Energy 75

Void guns will autofire on targets within the circle crosshair that increases for every successful hit from the void guns. Recast the ability to add more guns at the cost of resetting the crosshair by -25° field of view.

From 45° to 80° field of view

Each successive hit from void guns = +1° field of view for void guns

Grab range: Unchanged

Firing Range: 12 meters


4. Vast Untime - Energy 100

Added synergy with Grasp of Lohk. See SYNERGIES part.


SYNERGIES: 

Grasp of Lohk with The Lost: Deny

Void guns will only auto target and fire on enemies regardless of field of view range if they are floating from Deny.

Firing range for void guns is also doubled for targets floating from Deny.


Grasp of Lohk with Vast Untime

Cast Grasp of Lohk on enemies affected by Vast Untime to regain armor pieces that adds up to 75% damage reduction.

Each enemy = 10% damage reduction armor part.

Armor pieces on Xaku will glow with void energy depending on energy color of your frame. This also includes armor sets and syandanas. Preserving fashionframe.

 

Q&A:

1. Q: Why swap places with 2nd and 3rd ability?

A: Because Grasp of Lohk is a very powerful ability that scales based on enemy level. With Vast Untime combined, you have a set and forget ability that is cheap for it's own good. So, IMO, increasing the energy cost for such powerful ability (with my changes) makes more sense. As for "The Lost", you have a set number of enemies you can posses with Accuse. Gaze can only handle 2 places within an acceptable but not very large radius. Deny for 75 energy is too costly, so reducing every ability from The Lost to 50 energy, IMO, is acceptable.

2. Q: Why did you swap Grasp of Lohk void gun auto aim to "only fire within crosshair" style?

A: As other people stated, making inactive abilities completely disregards what DE achieved with Ember rework. Why repeat the same mistake with Ember's "World on Fire" ability? Why repeat the same "inactive play" trend? (Yes, I hate inactive/afk gameplay because the point of any game is to being able to f***ing play it.) So, my idea turns Xaku's void guns into psuedo-Mesa's Peacemaker with a sniping capability when using The Lost's Deny ability on enemies that are far away which buffs my void guns range to attack these targets only.

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27 minutes ago, RobRalneR said:

2. Q: Why did you swap Grasp of Lohk void gun auto aim to "only fire within crosshair" style?

A: As other people stated, making inactive abilities completely disregards what DE achieved with Ember rework.

The ember rework achieved nothing. Ember is barely more "aCtIvE" than prior to them gutting her. Standing around and mashing 4 is hardly different than what she did before.

Stop supporting this farce, please. Stop feeding this unhealthy obsession with things being "active." It's 100% entirely pretense and means nothing in reality.

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13 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

The ember rework achieved nothing. Ember is barely more "aCtIvE" than prior to them gutting her. Standing around and mashing 4 is hardly different than what she did before.

Stop supporting this farce, please. Stop feeding this unhealthy obsession with things being "active." It's 100% entirely pretense and means nothing in reality.

Sounds like you only play Hydron.

Yes, in lower levels, she can just use her 4, but on higher levels, she also has to use her 2nd and 3rd ability not just for survival, but also CC and armor strip. Simply spamming her 4 won't get you far. Good luck playing endurance runs without her 2 on.

If you want a perfect example of what frames are considered active, useful and fun, look at Atlas, Excalibur, Garuda, Gauss, Harrow, Nezha and Baruuk. These frames use a combination of abilities that not only deal damage or makes them tankier but also let's them control the battlefield. And they have to use the abilities constantly while on the move in order to deal good DPS, while also granting debuffs on enemies.

Yes, Atlas uses his 1 constantly, but he uses his 3 and 4 to stop enemies from moving and attacking. Simply mashing 1 just sends enemies flying which ruins the flow of Atlas' playstyle.

Excalibur blinds enemies constantly while dealing good dps with his Exalted Blade. Occasionally using his 1 to traverse easily from enemy to enemy while also effectively taking down smaller enemies such as Ospreys. (His 3, however, is only good when using the augment, otherwise it's useless).

Garuda uses mainly her 4, but in order to do that, she needs energy thanks to her 3 and heals thanks to her 2. Her 1 is used for room clearing in combination with her 4.

Gauss is a DPS/CC tank who needs to move around in order to get the best out of his abilities.

Harrow is an energy regen/healer/DPS frame that uses a combination of abilities that makes his kit work. It is done through steps: 1, Cast 3 for energy regen. 2. Kill enemies. 3. Trap enemies with his 1. 4. Repeat step 2. 5. Cast 2 for heals and increased fire rate. Occasionally use his 4 for extra DPS.

Nezha can protect his allies and debuffing/killing his foes with his Hula Hoop and can clear rooms with multiple Hula Hoops thanks to his 4 and his augment for his 2nd ability. He can also generate health orbs and energy orbs if using his kit right.

And Baruuk is a frame just like Excalibur, except in order to use his 4, you have to earn it by using his kit. Afterwards, enjoy clearing rooms of foes while occasionally using his 2 for CC and 3 for disarming foes and giving him tankiness, all while trying to maintain his 4th ability as active as possible.

So you see, these warframes I mentioned need to use their kit in order to stay powerful while also giving them benefits such as tankiness, heals and energy. In my terms, that's active and fun gameplay.

Of course, camping around and using one or two abilities is a dominant strategy for other frames (i.e. Mag, Limbo, Octavia, Wukong, Hydroid, Khora, Ivara, Volt, Nova etc.), which creates this so called "inactive macro" playstyle.

The reason why that exists is because of three things. Affinity, abilities that do everything on its own (i.e. Wukong's clone and Octavia's mallet) and hiding spots.

If I was a developer, I would rework how affinity works to influence players to be more active and not just sit there and do nothing, while at the same time reworking abilities that do everything on their own. As for hiding spots, you can place as many invisible walls as you want to prevent people from hiding from the battlefield (i.e. pillars near the ceiling in void tower missions or a small edge near the ceiling on hydron that's fixed), but camping spots such as small rooms or tunnels will always be there due to level design.

Edited by RobRalneR
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12 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Sounds like you only play Hydron.

Sounds like you're projecting, because if you weren't, you'd know that Ember at high levels isn't even relevant to this discussion. If you weren't just a hydron player, you'd know that old Ember, with old Fire damage, before the hack job they gave her by awkwardly trying to make her "active," barely functioned at all past sorties, so bringing up anything above starchart is a non-sequitur in this discussion.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have just wasted a page of text saying absolutely nothing of relevance. You'd have stopped yourself and said "oh, oops, I better not post this, it's wrong." You of course don't know what you're talking about, and so here you are, trying to act like current Ember isn't just old Ember with better scaling and the requirement that you press 4 a whole bunch.

New ember is just old, pre-nerf ember except she facerolls content into the 100s now with two extra button presses in between destroying your keyboard's 4 key. This is literally how pre-nerf ember was in sorties (brozime did a video SPECIFICALLY about this sort of thing before she was nerfed), now she just scales even further.

You're not helping your case, you're actually arguing against yourself and you don't even realize it. Or, at the very least, you're showing that your standards as to what constitutes "active" are so low as to be virtually non-existent. But again, this just proves my point as to how pretentious and arbitrary the whole thing is.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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14 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Why repeat the same "inactive play" trend?

This got me interested then you said

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Baruuk

you lost 3/4 of your credibility.
You seems to think that any think that's you use a lot makes a play "active". Some of them are half-passive & half-active. You use it from time to time (active aspect) but you turn it on for some time or something (passive aspect). I'll look for them in your examples. Let's call them 1/2 for simplicity. Of course some of them are more passive and some of them are more active. And of course, it's little subjective.

Let me talk about your active frames. I'll omit those that I don't know too much.

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Excalibur

Half of his kit is very active (1 & 4). His 2nd is 1/2.

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Garuda

It's very well thought frame however I wouldn't call it "active". Only one ability is active (3rd - Bloodletting). Others are 1/2

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Harrow

Same here. Only Penannce (2nd) is active. Others are 1/2.

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Gauss

Only his 1st is active (which is love). His 3rd & 4th are 1/2. His 2nd is just a buff. You turn it on and forget.

11 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Atlas

Using the Path of Statues mod makes this ability very 1/2. No need to use 3rd.
Same with the Ore gaze mod. You use this one a lot but you end up killing enemies with melee. I have seen this infused on Nekros. Very active, but from weapon perspective.
His 4th is 1/2.
His 2 might be used for defense and "rolling" enemies. It could be said it's "active" (at least the "roll" effect).

And for the last, most active passive frame

12 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Baruuk

3/4 of his frame exist solely to activate his 4th. You put his 3rd and either 1st or 2nd. Raise and repeat. 1/2 all the way. The Lull is on the verge on simple passive.

If Baruuk is the way you define "active" game play... then I don't know what other frame like Grendel is.

And the reason I mentioned it is you are making Xaku's active play worse.
Sure I like this

15 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Void guns will autofire on targets within the circle crosshair

with hard-coded "range" value. It would make Grasp of Lohk more reliable. Now it needs a lot of guns to be usable.

15 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

1. Q: Why swap places with 2nd and 3rd ability?

A: Because Grasp of Lohk is a very powerful ability that scales based on enemy level. With Vast Untime combined, you have a set and forget ability that is cheap for it's own good. So, IMO, increasing the energy cost for such powerful ability (with my changes) makes more sense. As for "The Lost", you have a set number of enemies you can posses with Accuse. Gaze can only handle 2 places within an acceptable but not very large radius. Deny for 75 energy is too costly, so reducing every ability from The Lost to 50 energy, IMO, is acceptable.

Swapping 2nd with 3rd makes it harder to cast Grasp of Lohk (not impossible).
Sure, if you set Gaze & you have lot of guns (Grasp of Lohk) then it will be not very active play.
However there is another style (which I like & use), which is not widely used as fair I can see. You mainly use 4th for time extender & 3rd mind control ability to get some break from time to time. Main gameplay consist 2 things (depending on factions, but can be used in both cases):
- using high status weapon (e.g. Mutalist Cernos) with their 1st (Xata's Whisper). You want to proc the Void status which makes enemies shoot themselves (not all enemies). The Void status lasts for 3 seconds so you cannot just shoot and forget...
- disarming lot of enemies with Grasp of Lohk. You need to be fast (speed mods). Go to group of enemies, cast the Grasp of Lohk and RUN (roll).

It's very active gameplay. I think only Gaus with his Mach rush can compare with this style. So big no to swapping or increasing energy costs of the Grasp of Lohk. Just reduce cost of the Lost from 75 to 50/25. Not sure if you could set cost of sub-ability to one value and another sub-ability to another value.

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6 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Sounds like you're projecting, because if you weren't, you'd know that Ember at high levels isn't even relevant to this discussion. If you weren't just a hydron player, you'd know that old Ember, with old Fire damage, before the hack job they gave her by awkwardly trying to make her "active," barely functioned at all past sorties, so bringing up anything above starchart is a non-sequitur in this discussion.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have just wasted a page of text saying absolutely nothing of relevance. You'd have stopped yourself and said "oh, oops, I better not post this, it's wrong." You of course don't know what you're talking about, and so here you are, trying to act like current Ember isn't just old Ember with better scaling and the requirement that you press 4 a whole bunch.

New ember is just old, pre-nerf ember except she facerolls content into the 100s now with two extra button presses in between destroying your keyboard's 4 key. This is literally how pre-nerf ember was in sorties (brozime did a video SPECIFICALLY about this sort of thing before she was nerfed), now she just scales even further.

You're not helping your case, you're actually arguing against yourself and you don't even realize it. Or, at the very least, you're showing that your standards as to what constitutes "active" are so low as to be virtually non-existent. But again, this just proves my point as to how pretentious and arbitrary the whole thing is.

(Responding per paragraph)

I'm not a hydron player. I quit hydron when I encountered so many afkers, so I took a different route to level up my frames. I hate standing around and do nothing.

I'm voicing my opinion about frames that I considered ones that fit my favorite level of playstyle.

Yes, you do spam her 4 even in higher levels, just like Atlas with his 1, but the ability isn't a "set it and leave it" ability anymore. I played Xini as Ember before her today's rework and I managed to set her as a sentry on one of the towers while I capture the rest as an operator. With current Ember, you HAVE to activate them on your own constantly. And you need LoS in order to achieve that, just like Mesa.

Here is my criteria on what constitutes as active gameplay, if you haven't figured it out (must pass all 4):

1. Abilities that don't make you go into afk mode.

I'm talking about abilities like Mallet or Wukong's clone. If you can just set it, go into operator mode and sit there for long periods of time, that constitutes as inactive gameplay.

2. Abilities either require line of sight, make them active from your point of view or you need to move to your enemies while they are frozen, asleep or stunned.

Abilities like Radial blind, Seeking Talons, Petrify and Lull come into play.

3. Synergy with other abilities.

Abilities on their own won't work well in endurance runs. Combining abilities together for maximum effect is a dominant strategy.

4. Playing in a specific way to get the most out of your warframe.

Some frames are squishy, others are tanky, but their kit is designed to be played in a way that keeps them alive and effective if used right. Harrow is a good example.

 

If you ask what frame is the most afk frame of all time? I'd say Limbo. He can just dodge into rift plane and never come out. Enemies can't hurt him and he doesn't have to do anything else for the team while he gains affinity.

If you ask what is the most active frame? I'd say Atlas or Excalibur. IMO.

I played this game for 7 years, plus 100s of other games on the hardest difficulty skill that gives me some experience to voice my opinion. Don't agree? Fine. You're free to disagree and criticize.

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7 hours ago, quxier said:

This got me interested then you said

you lost 3/4 of your credibility.
You seems to think that any think that's you use a lot makes a play "active". Some of them are half-passive & half-active. You use it from time to time (active aspect) but you turn it on for some time or something (passive aspect). I'll look for them in your examples. Let's call them 1/2 for simplicity. Of course some of them are more passive and some of them are more active. And of course, it's little subjective.

Let me talk about your active frames. I'll omit those that I don't know too much.

Half of his kit is very active (1 & 4). His 2nd is 1/2.

It's very well thought frame however I wouldn't call it "active". Only one ability is active (3rd - Bloodletting). Others are 1/2

Same here. Only Penannce (2nd) is active. Others are 1/2.

Only his 1st is active (which is love). His 3rd & 4th are 1/2. His 2nd is just a buff. You turn it on and forget.

Using the Path of Statues mod makes this ability very 1/2. No need to use 3rd.
Same with the Ore gaze mod. You use this one a lot but you end up killing enemies with melee. I have seen this infused on Nekros. Very active, but from weapon perspective.
His 4th is 1/2.
His 2 might be used for defense and "rolling" enemies. It could be said it's "active" (at least the "roll" effect).

And for the last, most active passive frame

3/4 of his frame exist solely to activate his 4th. You put his 3rd and either 1st or 2nd. Raise and repeat. 1/2 all the way. The Lull is on the verge on simple passive.

If Baruuk is the way you define "active" game play... then I don't know what other frame like Grendel is.

And the reason I mentioned it is you are making Xaku's active play worse.
Sure I like this

with hard-coded "range" value. It would make Grasp of Lohk more reliable. Now it needs a lot of guns to be usable.

Swapping 2nd with 3rd makes it harder to cast Grasp of Lohk (not impossible).
Sure, if you set Gaze & you have lot of guns (Grasp of Lohk) then it will be not very active play.
However there is another style (which I like & use), which is not widely used as fair I can see. You mainly use 4th for time extender & 3rd mind control ability to get some break from time to time. Main gameplay consist 2 things (depending on factions, but can be used in both cases):
- using high status weapon (e.g. Mutalist Cernos) with their 1st (Xata's Whisper). You want to proc the Void status which makes enemies shoot themselves (not all enemies). The Void status lasts for 3 seconds so you cannot just shoot and forget...
- disarming lot of enemies with Grasp of Lohk. You need to be fast (speed mods). Go to group of enemies, cast the Grasp of Lohk and RUN (roll).

It's very active gameplay. I think only Gaus with his Mach rush can compare with this style. So big no to swapping or increasing energy costs of the Grasp of Lohk. Just reduce cost of the Lost from 75 to 50/25. Not sure if you could set cost of sub-ability to one value and another sub-ability to another value.

Let me clarify about Baruuk. Yes, he can just use his 2nd ability while having 3rd on and sit there, but then how are you gonna fight anything if enemies are asleep and not moving to your location if they're stuck mid-way?

You mentioned Grendel. Yes, he fits in my criteria of active frames, but almost. Because his 1 is mostly used and is most effective, IMO. His 2 gives minor buffs, his 3 is average, and his 4 is gimmicky. Plus he's got energy problems and his 2 barely helps.

As for Xaku, Fine. Swapping 2nd and 3rd ability won't happen in my rework. As for The Lost, as far as I know, no warframe has different energy costs on different swappable abilities, and we can't just put Deny on Grasp of Lohk and have it cost the same for tap and hold because it will ruin the theme on his 3rd ability.

Unless, why not add parts of The Lost into each specific ability as tap n hold?

1. Xata's Whisper and Gaze - 25 energy

2. Grasp of Lohk and Deny - 50 energy

3. Accuse - 75 energy

4. Vast Untime - 100 energy

That would solve the energy issues since both tap and hold uses the same energy cost.

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39 minutes ago, RobRalneR said:

e can't just put Deny on Grasp of Lohk and have it cost the same for tap and hold because it will ruin the theme on his 3rd ability.

I heard his 3rd ability is "3 in 1" so sadly we cannot just move abilities from 3rd position... I think.
However if we could, I and some other people (not sure how many) would like to see:
1. Tap => Deny || Hold => Xata's whisper; You don't have to constantly activate Xata's whisper so it's ok to put it "on hold". Deny, on other hand, would be nice to have on "quick tap".
2. Tap => Accuse || Hold => Gaze; You can easily kill Accused enemies so it would be easier to "tap" instead of "hold".
There were nice explanation about those 4 abilities. Something like this (if you are here please repost it here, thanks):
Deny = Void attack || Xata's Whisper = Void buff
Accuse = void mind debuff (mind control) || Gaze = void debuf
So it will fit both "physically" as in tap vs hold and thematically.

 

And in my opinion:
- Gaze is worth 75 energy as it stands almost forever (with 4th)
- Accused enemies are easily killed so it's not worth to put 75 energy
- Deny... not sure how strong it is. Sure, if enemies are not killed then it's easy headshots... but I would still like to spam it more.

In my opinion they could just decrease cost of 3rd to 50.

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On 2020-10-15 at 11:05 PM, quxier said:

I heard his 3rd ability is "3 in 1" so sadly we cannot just move abilities from 3rd position... I think.
However if we could, I and some other people (not sure how many) would like to see:
1. Tap => Deny || Hold => Xata's whisper; You don't have to constantly activate Xata's whisper so it's ok to put it "on hold". Deny, on other hand, would be nice to have on "quick tap".
2. Tap => Accuse || Hold => Gaze; You can easily kill Accused enemies so it would be easier to "tap" instead of "hold".
There were nice explanation about those 4 abilities. Something like this (if you are here please repost it here, thanks):
Deny = Void attack || Xata's Whisper = Void buff
Accuse = void mind debuff (mind control) || Gaze = void debuf
So it will fit both "physically" as in tap vs hold and thematically.

 

And in my opinion:
- Gaze is worth 75 energy as it stands almost forever (with 4th)
- Accused enemies are easily killed so it's not worth to put 75 energy
- Deny... not sure how strong it is. Sure, if enemies are not killed then it's easy headshots... but I would still like to spam it more.

In my opinion they could just decrease cost of 3rd to 50.

Agreed.

Either this or reduce the cost for The Lost to 50.

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On 2020-10-16 at 7:37 PM, (PS4)NOVALINK said:

Round 1 was great and round 2 will be even better. All that's left is a bigger energy pool so we can have more build options and a toggle option for Xaku so he can use his 4th without changing his appearance.  

Endgame Fashion Frame For Life!

Why increase the energy pool even more? Why not just make the abilities cheaper? Or maybe not require us to dip into negative efficiency for the frame to have abilities that kind of do stuff.

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Had a bug today using Grasp of Lohk, that it sometimes just drains massive amounts of energy. I think it was draining its 50 energy per disarmed target. Happened twice in two different missions around demos nodes in steel path. Not sure how to replicate faithfully though. At one point i went from 350 energy to 0. Ive got the magnetic proc arcane (fully leveled) on so i know it wasnt that.

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5 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Had a bug today using Grasp of Lohk, that it sometimes just drains massive amounts of energy. I think it was draining its 50 energy per disarmed target. Happened twice in two different missions around demos nodes in steel path. Not sure how to replicate faithfully though. At one point i went from 350 energy to 0. Ive got the magnetic proc arcane (fully leveled) on so i know it wasnt that.

First comment from Arcane nullifier (I guess) page:

Quote

Does not work on ancient disruptors. One hit and one still took 300-400 energy from me in steel path, and I had this arcane max rank equipped.

Not sure if it's the case but... you know.

Edited by quxier
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