Upcoming Xaku Changes: Round 2!

[F3dElian87]

En 29/10/2020 a las 17:40, (NSW)Electropuncher dijo:

I didn't say bad. I said overrated. It's still very useful, but every single video I've seen about Xaku pines for the ability to have 100% defense strip when 50% isn't something to scoff at. And again, there are two other abilities in The Lost that also are really, REALLY strong. Accuse can basically make a room fight amongst itself and Deny is really good at removing a line of enemies from the fight (if it doesn't outright kill them). Having an AOE armor strip is really great, but out of those abilities, it's really not as impressive. Especially since you also have a radial disarm baked into your kit that ALSO gives you melee guns.

I never said that gaze is the only strong ability... I just said that it is very annoying that the stolen weapons target the enemy with gray life, it is not very difficult to understand my point... Greetings.

[(XBOX)IMABEMEOUTLAW]

So I feel like if you replace a certain ability on Xaku from the helmith that ability should also be affected by the pause of vast untime . Shouldn't it?? I don't see why it wouldn't..

[quxier]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)IMABEMEOUTLAW said:

So I feel like if you replace a certain ability on Xaku from the helmith that ability should also be affected by the pause of vast untime . Shouldn't it?? I don't see why it wouldn't..

Yep. Or at least something like this:

 

[vanaukas]

please just drop this changes, I'm dying for trying them, specially the void change

[Leqesai]

On 2020-10-30 at 10:52 AM, quxier said:

But do you really need 200% strength? Wouldn't 185 be "just fine"? I might be wrong, I'm "kind of new" into this armor stripping but I read on the Ash augment that you even get less damage for some damage types, e.g.corrosive.

I get it that Xaku's builds are not very flexible, however I think you can still have Strength & Efficiency at the same build. And you can have little bit of duration with Primed Continuity (not that you need that much duration).

 

For me the problems are range mods.

You either have 90% range from the Overextended but you need to compensate with strength mods. And to be honest, Lots of abilities needs strength. Maybe Grasp of Lohk(disarming) might be "ok" without strength but would benefit from range.

Or you put 3 mods: Stretch, Augur Reach and Cunning drift. Maybe 1, 3 & 4 don't need much range but if you want to extend Grasp of Lohk range... you need a lot.

Sure, but I don't think it would be fair compared to something like Ash's Seeking shuriken. He needs ~2 mods to have 100% armor strip. It takes 25 energy and could effect 2 enemies (as fair I could see). Now, with 70% damage reduction at base, Xaku could affect much more enemies, with the 3x cost.

Put simply, 100% reduction is very important.

If a level 120 corrupted heavy gunner has around 7k armor then a 90% reduction would leave the enemy with 700 armor.

7k armor is a 95.89% damage reduction.

700 armor is a 70% damage reduction.

Bumping the armor strip to 100% reduces the effective damage reduction by another 70%.

 

99.9% armor strip would leave the same target with 16.5% damage reduction so that extra 0.1% armor strip reduces the damage reduction by 16.5%.

 

This is more significant the higher the enemy levels.

 

The only real downside to 100% armor strip is that the enemy loses the elemental weakness of their armor.

But since xaku does void damage it is unquestionably more valuable to get rid of the shield and armor values completely.

[quxier]

47 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is more significant the higher the enemy levels.

Make sense, I see how higher levels or SP having 90% reduction still having lot of armor.

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

But since xaku does void damage it is unquestionably more valuable to get rid of the shield and armor values completely.

Xaku is not the damage dealer or buffer/debuffer. You can use your guns/melees to do a job.

Still, I get it that you want use 2nd on enemies without armor.

[Leqesai]

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

Make sense, I see how higher levels or SP having 90% reduction still having lot of armor.

Xaku is not the damage dealer or buffer/debuffer. You can use your guns/melees to do a job.

Still, I get it that you want use 2nd on enemies without armor.

Xaku's 1 adds additional void damage (this is a buff..)

Xaku's 2 exclusively deals void damage (this is a damage dealing ability, and it does a ton of damage if you know what you're doing...)

Xaku's 3 (denial) does void damage

Xaku's 3 removes armor (this is a debuff)

Xaku's 4 Causes vulnerability to void damage to any target hit by the initial casting (this is a debuff...)

 

Xaku is absolutely a damage-dealer and debuffer and buffer... I'm not sure why you say they aren't...

 

Of course Xaku can use regular weapons, but they are built around void damage which is largely impacted by armor values.

 

Gaze is what makes Xaku's 2 effective at high levels because the damage from grasp of lohk already has a scaling mechanic. By disabling a target's armor you are essentially stunting the scalability of enemy EHP values....

Do you understand now?

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku's 1 adds additional void damage (this is a buff..)

And adds voids status.

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku's 2 exclusively deals void damage

It's disarms enemies as well.

5 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku's 3 removes armor (this is a debuff)

One mind control enemies.

6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku's 4 Causes vulnerability to void damage to any target hit by the initial casting (this is a debuff...)

It slows enemies as well. It still has some problems but still... it's there.

 

In your playstyle it's important to have 100% armor strip but there are other ways not relaying only on armor stripping of the Gaze.

[Leqesai]

Just now, quxier said:

And adds voids status.

It's disarms enemies as well.

One mind control enemies.

It slows enemies as well. It still has some problems but still... it's there.

 

In your playstyle it's important to have 100% armor strip but there are other ways not relaying only on armor stripping of the Gaze.

All of these points are irrelevant... The topic was related to why armor strip is important for Gaze. Pointing out the cc potential of Xaku's moveset is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making.

 

Yes... Xaku's abilities have cc potential. They also do all of the things I described. Which is why it is important to fully strip armor. So your abilities can be more effective dealing damage.

 

Of course you can disregard the damage-dealing, buffing and debuffing aspects of Xaku's kit and play them as a cc frame, using the same weapons that every other frame has access to... But that was not the topic. The topic was, as proposed by you, "why is it better to have 100% armor strip instead of less than 100%"

 

[Leqesai]

20 hours ago, (XB1)IMABEMEOUTLAW said:

So I feel like if you replace a certain ability on Xaku from the helmith that ability should also be affected by the pause of vast untime . Shouldn't it?? I don't see why it wouldn't..

Absolutely not. Xaku's ability to stop the timer of their abilities is exceptionally powerful. This could be very unbalanced when paired with numerous subsume abilities (silence, well of life, roar, petrify, rest/rage, terrify, defy, resonator etc.)

[Xaegar]

On 2020-10-30 at 8:46 PM, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Grasp of lokh guns has a collision bug, when they have high number they clip/sink in ground and ceiling, unable to fire since they line on one side.

@[DE]Danielle Could you change it to have collision and/or have guns arc over the warframe instead.

This please, I mentioned this but it didn't gain much traction. The guns just clip into the floor and do nothing for the entirety of its duration. Its a pretty big dps loss when 3 or 4 guns out of the 10+ are stuck under the floor. This issue is a lot more noticeable when you consider certain maps and terrain when you're fighting on elevated ground, a bunch of guns just do nothing due to clipping and lack of line of sight.

 

My suggestion as a fix :

Spoiler

 

[quxier]

27 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

All of these points are irrelevant... The topic was related to why armor strip is important for Gaze. Pointing out the cc potential of Xaku's moveset is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making.

 

Yes... Xaku's abilities have cc potential. They also do all of the things I described. Which is why it is important to fully strip armor. So your abilities can be more effective dealing damage.

 

Of course you can disregard the damage-dealing, buffing and debuffing aspects of Xaku's kit and play them as a cc frame, using the same weapons that every other frame has access to... But that was not the topic. The topic was, as proposed by you, "why is it better to have 100% armor strip instead of less than 100%"

Xaku is not one thing or another. I was just pointing that with your still it's important. And why with other styles you can live with <100% Gaze.
For example, you can put 2 Gaze, and strip armor using Sarpa.

25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Absolutely not. Xaku's ability to stop the timer of their abilities is exceptionally powerful. This could be very unbalanced when paired with numerous subsume abilities (silence, well of life, roar, petrify, rest/rage, terrify, defy, resonator etc.)

It's not like you cannot do this now. Like Primed flow + Primed continuity (or other stuffs depending on frame) could do it. You have few hundreds of energy to waste. It's like saying that Protea shouldn't give back energy of infused abilities.
And even if some abilities would break a game you can limit them like I described few post earlier: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1228645-upcoming-xaku-changes-round-2/?do=findComment&comment=11914544

[Leqesai]

22 minutes ago, quxier said:

Xaku is not one thing or another. I was just pointing that with your still it's important. And why with other styles you can live with <100% Gaze.
For example, you can put 2 Gaze, and strip armor using Sarpa.

It's not like you cannot do this now. Like Primed flow + Primed continuity (or other stuffs depending on frame) could do it. You have few hundreds of energy to waste. It's like saying that Protea shouldn't give back energy of infused abilities.
And even if some abilities would break a game you can limit them like I described few post earlier: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1228645-upcoming-xaku-changes-round-2/?do=findComment&comment=11914544

[quxier]

10 hours ago, Leqesai said:

What's wrong?

[(XBOX)IMABEMEOUTLAW]

12 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Absolutely not. Xaku's ability to stop the timer of their abilities is exceptionally powerful. This could be very unbalanced when paired with numerous subsume abilities (silence, well of life, roar, petrify, rest/rage, terrify, defy, resonator etc.)

Okay and  ? It should still be a possibility of some sort ? It's no different than having a bunch of guns frozen next to you lol. 

[RoadCrewWorker]

hello DE, does anyone still remember Xaku?

no, just me? 😩

 

Got distracted by new shiny thing already?

[quxier]

2 hours ago, RoadCrewWorker said:

hello DE, does anyone still remember Xaku?

no, just me? 😩

I've just recently put 5th or 6th forma, bought the Rolling guard and almost maxed it. Now, from time to time, I'm testing what mods would fit my play-style.

And I'm suggesting some stuffs and responding....
... all this things to wait for Xaku change.

 

Could we have some information? It's past month since this topic was created.

[vanaukas]

I think this is going to drop with the revisited update they are plannng, since probably will involve several changes across all elements and maybe they tweaked more or put the elements more in line in terms of balance. Anyway, I wanted to say that the previous void change was absolutely phenomenal. Operator doesn't need an elemental arcane anymore to perform good on regular missions or even high level missions, so it's more accesible than before in terms of dps.

[Acersecomic]

On 2020-09-29 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

 

This is all great and fine but shedding your skin with Vast Untime completely ruins the fashionframe aspect of what is one of the most interesting looking frames capable of excellent fashion.

Any chance we might get some form of "does not look boring when using an ability you want to have on AT ALL TIMES?

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

This is all great and fine but shedding your skin with Vast Untime completely ruins the fashionframe aspect of what is one of the most interesting looking frames capable of excellent fashion.

Any chance we might get some form of "does not look boring when using an ability you want to have on AT ALL TIMES?

Honestly, I think options to tune the alterations on our looks from abilities is a serious thing to consider for many frames:

• Xaku in his Skeleton form
• Rhino with his Iron Skin
• Mirage with her Eclipse
• All Warframes with invisibility

For example: Instead of having the very look of our Warframes so heavily altered, one option could be to have something orbitting us to indicate these abilities being active, so we still have some kind of quick visual on the ability wether it's active or not. I'd definitely use that on all of the above.

 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

For example: Instead of having the very look of our Warframes so heavily altered, one option could be to have something orbitting us to indicate these abilities being active, so we still have some kind of quick visual on the ability wether it's active or not. I'd definitely use that on all of the above.

No, no, no. This kind of thing uses Protea shield (her first). It obstructs your vision.

 

[(PSN)thegarada]

Skill 4 is currently the issue. Since it is not touched the rest does not matter much.

[DerGilb]

If you don't want to listen to pretty much everyone and increase the range on Grasp of Lohk, maybe at least make it so that the abilities range without any range mods is a joke. I feel like I'm forced to get at least 265% power range, and that takes up a lot of space when modding him and sucks 60% of ability strength due to overextended. Right now it feels like every single mod setup I try on Xaku is a really bad compromise. Maybe cap the range at 22.4m and increase the base range, or remove the range scaling entirely and increase the range to 22.4m on max rank, so that we have the opportunity to mod for things besides range. Also many people had the idea that the ability should just stop shooting if the player doesn't move, to encourage active play and make a higher range possible, I don't see how leaving it at a short range is a better idea than that.

[Zeromuk]

I and many others would love for this warframe's void damage to be effective against eidolons. It just makes sense.

[Wicked001]

16 hours ago, DerGilb said:

If you don't want to listen to pretty much everyone and increase the range on Grasp of Lohk, maybe at least make it so that the abilities range without any range mods is a joke. I feel like I'm forced to get at least 265% power range, and that takes up a lot of space when modding him and sucks 60% of ability strength due to overextended. Right now it feels like every single mod setup I try on Xaku is a really bad compromise. Maybe cap the range at 22.4m and increase the base range, or remove the range scaling entirely and increase the range to 22.4m on max rank, so that we have the opportunity to mod for things besides range. Also many people had the idea that the ability should just stop shooting if the player doesn't move, to encourage active play and make a higher range possible, I don't see how leaving it at a short range is a better idea than that.

This ^^^

Xaku's target range should be a fixed number at the maximum allowed value (or at least cap at that value with significantly less range requirement).  This will give us the chance to mod for grasp's weapon steal range, without having to stack every single range mod to reach a nominal value for targeting.

Currently, (aside from dodge being a terrible type of damage reduction) the worst part about Xaku's kit is that there is "very little variety" in builds and play styles.  This is because of Xaku's heavy requirement of range, duration, and strength.  If we could reduce the required amount of range mods used... even by 1, it would allow a significant amount of variety for players to try new things and vary the builds with.

 

On a side note:

I am in favor of the #1 ability being buffed to a base of 50% (from 30%).

I replace the #3 ability with subsumed abilities more than any other... including the underwhelming #1 ability...  The #3 feels disjointed and lackluster.

And, I might not have mentioned that the #4 bonus to dodge chance does not include enough value to take Xaku into late game content (steel path), because of the 1 shot potential, not to mention it not proccing arcanes like guardian and mods like adaptation.  The functionality and synergy of this ability is great... except for the dodge chance bonus.  I'd rather have a 50% flat damage reduction than a 70% dodge chance bonus...  On paper, a 70% reduction "should" be more valuable than a 50% reduction.  Food for thought.