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Heart of Deimos: Prime Vault: 29.2.0


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1 hour ago, HelNite said:

to hide the potential use of boosters

He mentions boosters few time, so he does not hide it.
Not sure if it's the case of "4,5k cryotic in 24 minutes" , but he strongly encourage teamwork.

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12 minutes ago, HelNite said:

yes i am aware of this but i specifically requested a 5-10 min run with at least one click worth of cryotic as is easily possible with other bile resources without the use of any boosters

here you go 

what you requested is a guide, and not a 5-10 minute guide, so that's what i have provided

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On 2020-09-30 at 11:11 PM, master_of_destiny said:

He he he.  I can't suppress my glee at seeing this.

 

Frost's 1 is to create a projectile snowball, that serves to pop a snow globe if desired.  The two is an ice wave.  It can be modified to act as a conical damage source, that slows enemies.  Frost's main reworks have been to make the 1 pop snow globes, and to have infinite scaling on the snow globes by enemy input damage.

 

Let's check out a competing frame.  Zephyr.  The ultimate is tornado.  It's AI driven, and either CC without mods or status transfer with an augment.  Frost wins because it's predictable damage.

Their 3 abilities are defenses.  snow globe create a shielded area, which has infinite duration and scaling health.  With augments it not only shields but slows enemies to a crawl.  Zephyr's ability is a personal shield that mostly deflect projectiles, unless they've got AoE damage.  With the augment it can increase the projectile speed of some weapons.  

I'm going to compare Zephyr's 2 and Frost's 1 here.  Both are projectiles launched, and mainly exist to interact with the other powers.  Frost's does some damage, and pops excess snow globes.  Zephyr's is a bad CC that sometimes rag dolls enemies, and can make the tornados twice as big (at a base cost between 50 and 200 damage if the augment is not used).  I'm calling this a draw.

Zephyr's 1 and Frost's 2 are oddities.  Frost can do some damage and control enemies, but is most effective in tight environments.  Zephyr's 1 gives mobility, but requires large areas to utilize it.  Effectively, Zephyr can do some damage if enemies are grouped and there's a lot of open area.  Calling this one a draw as well, because they're both heavily environment bound.

 

Score: Zephyr-0, Frost-2, Draw-2.  

I main Zephyr, and at this point it's nearly comical.  I know she's not going to get love unless they release her deluxe skin.  She's been in the game for longer than Gara (6 years versus just under 3)...but Gara's already got her deluxe skin being shown off.  Despite this, it seems like everyone has a different frame that needs a rework more.  It's nearly comical, because even after the Helminth "buff" the airburst ability is still absolutely idiotic to keep on her.  Despite all of this it's Frost, Revenant, or a litany of other frames that need rework.

 

Sorry to vent a bit there.  It's just that it seem like everyone wants something fixed...and it's always a B or C grade ability.  Zephyr's stuck with one good ability and mobility, but she's never really discussed.  I have to laugh, because the alternative is to just swallow the meta pill and go with something that makes farming more bearable.  

I do agree that Zephyr needs a rework the most out of any frame but still they could make frost's second ability useful at least.

Edited by Tiny_Desk_Engineer
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6 hours ago, quxier said:

He mentions boosters few time, so he does not hide it.
Not sure if it's the case of "4,5k cryotic in 24 minutes" , but he strongly encourage teamwork.

 

So let's talk.  All of this stems from an original post.  Said original post splashed the image of earning 4500 cryotic, in a mission, that lasted under 25 minutes.

That single image was then utilized to state that 3000 cryotic was not an unreasonable ask for a single feeding of the Helminth system.

 

What was not covered at the time was the presence of an active boost, meaning that half of the quantity was actually earned.  It was not covered that this was completed on an excavation fissure mission.  It was also not covered that for something like this to occur you needed idealistic spawns, because a single picture was anecdotal evidence of a thing.  All of these topic were simply glossed over, and in the case of the definition of anecdotal evidence it was actively stated that they were above and capable of redefining that word from its dictionary definition.

 

Now we get a "guide" to farming.  One that will require a reasonably coordinated team, a void fissure mission, and a booster.  Hopefully you see how stupid that is, but I'll elaborate.  The goal is to say whether or not 3000 cryotic is reasonable to expect as a feeding to the helminth system.  In order to get all the way back to that point, you've got to pay real money to DE, in order to boost their resource drop rate.  You've got to get lucky, and have multiple excavators drop in close enough proximity to have two running with a lot of overlap.  You've then got to have a mission type active.

The above statement is really stupid.  Let's do the simple math.  4500 in 24 minutes means 22 fully excavators and one partial with a booster.  That's 2250 seconds of excavation time, or 37 minutes and 30 seconds if you ran them consecutively.  Our intrepid guide writer claims it is possible in 24....so assumes the ~60 seconds of initial downtime will mean you actually need to fit 37.5 minutes in 23.  That means you basically need to have two excavators running at all times, as only 2 will spawn and there is a delay between having them drop and the round wait timers.

Would you then like the guide, cause any idiot can write it now.  Buy a resource quantity booster.  Get a team with 2 offensive and 2 defensive frames.  Each defender and offender pair up, and take an excavator.  They keep it fed until is finishes.  At which point they rapidly run to whichever one spawns first at the start of the next round.  Lather-rinse-repeat.  If the spawns break, and enemy energy carriers don't rush, you're out of luck.  Of the excavators spawn half way across the map you're out of luck.  This means the presented anecdote is not a guide or evidence, but one idealized situation.

Let's do that math then.  Each excavator drops inside of 20 seconds of the other.  This means 60 seconds average per excavator.  23 minutes to do 23 excavators....yeah the math checks out.  It's not complicated.

 

Now in the real world, let's look at actual drop rates.  Everyone has stories about the AI in this game just breaking.  Carriers not spawning because of where the excavators drop, multiple minutes where no carriers spawn, and the inability to get a good group of randos to farm.  We've also got the expectation that 800+ meters of traversal to go from one excavator to the next is not instant....so 60 seconds an excavator is not going to happen.  That is, if a good excavation mission is even up.  Now, factor in the need for 30 full excavators instead of 15, and things get more interesting.

 

 

 

Let me short answer this, for the TL;DR crowd.  You started with the statement "3000 cryotic is reasonable to be the cost of feeding the helminth."  Anecdotal evidence said it was acceptable to one person, who didn't state the use of boosters and argued that one example run was somehow not anecdotal evidence.  This is where the issue comes from...and frankly it's funny seeing someone write a guide whose thesis statement is that if you want to farm efficiently you need to pay DE to get twice the normal drop rate...indicating that the farming rate by default sucks.

Slow clap.  Angry defenders of the faith get to hate me.  Wrapping up all of this, 5+ years of actual play in and I'm highlighting all of the things people have been leaving for since the best void keys were endless mission void keys because you could get dozens of primed parts....though they just sat in your inventory.

 

 

-Edit-

  

1 hour ago, Tiny_Desk_Engineer said:

I do agree that Zephyr needs a rework the most out of any frame but still they could make frost's second ability useful at least.

 

So, hopefully the thrust of my argument is not lost here.  Frost is a solid B or C frame when it comes to all of the abilities.  As such it's not terribly unreasonable to ask for something to be moved from middling to good or even great.  The easy target is 2 because its augment is basically what should have been in-built from the word go...but that's only because after 7 years the power creep of this game has made it less amazing by comparison.

 

I support the rework of lots of abilities.  If DE was reasonable they'd do what they said they wouldn't, and review the replaced powers on frames that the Helminth is pumping out right now.  I'd imagine that monthly iterative tweaks from a dedicated balance team (2-3 coders at absolute most, using the public test servers and community feedback to create monthly updates) could make the Helminth much harder to use by virtue of each frame getting more homogeneously good.

That said, Zephyr is one of the few remaining frames with deep fundamental issues.  She joins Valkyr, and a few others, with a single signature move and everything else being meh.  That requires a full rework of their abilities, not like Frost who just needs a bit of love.

 

You're welcome to disagree, though I don't think we do.  My problem is that if we ask for too many reworks it'll result in one or two new meta frames, and they'll get the nerf hammer.  Read: Ember.  I support asking for Frost's 2 to get buffing...Valkyr to get something other the Warcry, and Zephyr to get something other than Turbulence.  

 

-Edit end-

Edited by master_of_destiny
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1 hour ago, Tiny_Desk_Engineer said:

I do agree that Zephyr needs a rework the most out of any frame but still they could make frost's second ability useful at least.

Ermmm.. What?

Frost's 2 is extremely useful, especially for choke points, narrow corridors, slowing baddies ( neat for groups that like to come at you in a straight line), and other fun filled exciting tricks to ruin the AI's day.

 

Let's recap the base info of his 2:

 

IceWaveModU15    Frost Ice Wave 
ENERGY
50
KEY
(2)     Ice Wave
Sends a wave of razor sharp, crystallized ice toward an enemy, dealing heavy damage.    Strength:300 / 445 / 565 / 700 (Cold w Cold damage)
Duration:N/A
Range:30 / 35 / 40 / 45° (angle)
1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 m (initial width)
10 / 12 / 17 / 20 m (length)
Misc:600% (Cold w Cold status chance)
60° (angle cap)
INFO, AUGMENT, TIPS & TRICKS
Frost sends forth a wave of ice shards that deals 300 / 445 / 565 / 700 Cold. Cold damage with a 600% status chance to all targets in its area of effect. The wave has an initial width of 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 meters, disperses at a 30 / 35 / 40 / 45° angle, and travels over a distance of 10 / 12 / 17 / 20 meters.
Damage is affected by Ability Strength.
Angle, initial width, and length are affected by Ability Range, and the angle cannot exceed 60° under any circumstances.
Status chance is not affected by mods.
Has a cast time of 1 second and a cast delay of ~1 second.
Ice Wave follows terrain. With multiple levels of terrain, the ice shards can change elevation to damage enemies.
Can be recast while active to send forth new waves.

 

The bolded parts are 3 key things to remember about Frost's 2, other than understanding it's not an insta-nuke ( I mean no snark here). It's specifically used for tight area situations where Frost's 4 isn't a viable option ( Walls and large objects, in a corridor, slowing speedy baddies, etc), or when your trying to get from pt A to pt. B in a hurry ( cast time 1 sec), especially since Frost is a tad bit slow in the running department.

A basic 260 pwr/str build for Frost nets you 1820 damage to ALL baddies in the AOE, is spammable, and is extremely energy efficient vs Frost's 4. That 600% sc to all baddies in the AOE? Well, it makes them milk toast to what ever your follow up is going to be. Want to break out your favorite Ginsu and make ice cubes? Well, np. Want to bring along your favorite Zippo? Well, you'll have fresh drinking water. Even more fun filled and evilly minded, is that with this little ice pick, you can have it go up a variety of objects ( boxes, pillars, those annoying floor platforms) and the poor hapless minions of doom jumping onto, or down to, get nailed by icy fingers of death.

Want to add a bit more maniacal glee to your frozen fun? Well, we got just the thing for you Tenno. Nice little augment called Ice Wave Impedence. This wonderful gem of an augment adds 12 seconds of slow duration to your wonderful wave of icy doom, and damage stacks while the baddies are in the AOE. 

 

So yes, Frost's 2 is extremely useful, especially if you understand the mechanics of the ability. Oh, and fun idea, hit a baddie with Frost's 1 while under the influence of his 2 and see what happens. You might actually giggle.

 

I do agree that The Snowman does need a rework however. Or at the very least, some TLC by the Dev Deities.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Old_Fogie said:

Ermmm.. What?

Frost's 2 is extremely useful, especially for choke points, narrow corridors, slowing baddies ( neat for groups that like to come at you in a straight line), and other fun filled exciting tricks to ruin the AI's day.

 

Let's recap the base info of his 2:

 

IceWaveModU15    Frost Ice Wave 
ENERGY
50
KEY
(2)     Ice Wave
Sends a wave of razor sharp, crystallized ice toward an enemy, dealing heavy damage.    Strength:300 / 445 / 565 / 700 (Cold w Cold damage)
Duration:N/A
Range:30 / 35 / 40 / 45° (angle)
1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 m (initial width)
10 / 12 / 17 / 20 m (length)
Misc:600% (Cold w Cold status chance)
60° (angle cap)
INFO, AUGMENT, TIPS & TRICKS
Frost sends forth a wave of ice shards that deals 300 / 445 / 565 / 700 Cold. Cold damage with a 600% status chance to all targets in its area of effect. The wave has an initial width of 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 meters, disperses at a 30 / 35 / 40 / 45° angle, and travels over a distance of 10 / 12 / 17 / 20 meters.
Damage is affected by Ability Strength.
Angle, initial width, and length are affected by Ability Range, and the angle cannot exceed 60° under any circumstances.
Status chance is not affected by mods.
Has a cast time of 1 second and a cast delay of ~1 second.
Ice Wave follows terrain. With multiple levels of terrain, the ice shards can change elevation to damage enemies.
Can be recast while active to send forth new waves.

 

The bolded parts are 3 key things to remember about Frost's 2, other than understanding it's not an insta-nuke ( I mean no snark here). It's specifically used for tight area situations where Frost's 4 isn't a viable option ( Walls and large objects, in a corridor, slowing speedy baddies, etc), or when your trying to get from pt A to pt. B in a hurry ( cast time 1 sec), especially since Frost is a tad bit slow in the running department.

A basic 260 pwr/str build for Frost nets you 1820 damage to ALL baddies in the AOE, is spammable, and is extremely energy efficient vs Frost's 4. That 600% sc to all baddies in the AOE? Well, it makes them milk toast to what ever your follow up is going to be. Want to break out your favorite Ginsu and make ice cubes? Well, np. Want to bring along your favorite Zippo? Well, you'll have fresh drinking water. Even more fun filled and evilly minded, is that with this little ice pick, you can have it go up a variety of objects ( boxes, pillars, those annoying floor platforms) and the poor hapless minions of doom jumping onto, or down to, get nailed by icy fingers of death.

Want to add a bit more maniacal glee to your frozen fun? Well, we got just the thing for you Tenno. Nice little augment called Ice Wave Impedence. This wonderful gem of an augment adds 12 seconds of slow duration to your wonderful wave of icy doom, and damage stacks while the baddies are in the AOE. 

 

So yes, Frost's 2 is extremely useful, especially if you understand the mechanics of the ability. Oh, and fun idea, hit a baddie with Frost's 1 while under the influence of his 2 and see what happens. You might actually giggle.

 

I do agree that The Snowman does need a rework however. Or at the very least, some TLC by the Dev Deities.

 

 

 

So....I'm going to offer a slightly differing opinion.  It's not that the ability is not good, but that it's not good by comparison.

 

Let's look at the augment, Ice Wave Impedance.  It functionally leaves behind a slowing field after the attack.  That's great.  The problem is that it's using a mod slot, for something that other frames already do.  What examples can I offer?

Khora's Strangledome offers area denial, reaches out for enemies, and prevents them from attacking.

Nidus's larva groups enemies, prevents attacking, and is of similar costing.

Ensnare from Khora also groups enemies and prevents attacking.

 

You'll note that the cited frames are much newer...almost like a formerly good ability (Ice Wave) has been slowly power creeped into being less efficient than newer alternatives.  Hence the rating of a slightly below average ability, but only when compared to others.

 

That's why I laugh, and why I can see a touch-up.  Ice Wave isn't bad, just incomplete and out of date due to power creep.  It happens to literally every damage based ability, as DE continues to pump out new stuff and slowly justify its existence with slightly higher numbers each time.  It's largely how frames like Vauban were CC king, then CC gave way to damage, and now anything with less damage potential is useless in comparison to that with slightly more. 

Oh look, the Rhino Roar meta train is now boarding.

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6 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

you've got to pay real money to DE, in order to boost their resource drop rate. 

You don't have to pay real money. However you need to earn 40/80/200 plat (for 3-, 7- and 30 day booster). That's require time and/or luck to get good prime parts. I can see  someone could earn it (even via ~1 hour fissure excavation) however not anyone have time or plat to earn/buy it.

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6 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

So....I'm going to offer a slightly differing opinion.  It's not that the ability is not good, but that it's not good by comparison.

 

Let's look at the augment, Ice Wave Impedance.  It functionally leaves behind a slowing field after the attack.  That's great.  The problem is that it's using a mod slot, for something that other frames already do.  What examples can I offer?

Khora's Strangledome offers area denial, reaches out for enemies, and prevents them from attacking.

Nidus's larva groups enemies, prevents attacking, and is of similar costing.

Ensnare from Khora also groups enemies and prevents attacking.

 

You'll note that the cited frames are much newer...almost like a formerly good ability (Ice Wave) has been slowly power creeped into being less efficient than newer alternatives.  Hence the rating of a slightly below average ability, but only when compared to others.

 

That's why I laugh, and why I can see a touch-up.  Ice Wave isn't bad, just incomplete and out of date due to power creep.  It happens to literally every damage based ability, as DE continues to pump out new stuff and slowly justify its existence with slightly higher numbers each time.  It's largely how frames like Vauban were CC king, then CC gave way to damage, and now anything with less damage potential is useless in comparison to that with slightly more. 

Oh look, the Rhino Roar meta train is now boarding.

Yup, and I agree with you. Frosty definitely needs some TLC, and honestly, I don't think he's going to get it ( along with a few other frames that definitely need it; Here's looking at you Birdie). I could ramble on about a hole host of issues regarding just frames alone, but it would be futile with DE's continuing trend.

 

Just saying Glacier Boi's 2 isn't useless, and still is servicable, despite him being an older frame.

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6 hours ago, quxier said:

You don't have to pay real money. However you need to earn 40/80/200 plat (for 3-, 7- and 30 day booster). That's require time and/or luck to get good prime parts. I can see  someone could earn it (even via ~1 hour fissure excavation) however not anyone have time or plat to earn/buy it.

 

Stop.  Think.  I know it's hard, but instead of just you consider the whole chain of events.

 

Now I know this is an ask, because it's hard for a lot of people to fathom.  Where does platinum come from?

 

Well, when a game developer makes a decent game people want to pay them to keep making it.  Sometimes it's directly buying platinum, and sometimes it's a happy coincidence that you buy a prime pack and get it as a means to justify that full AAA game price on a game that's been a messy beta for longer than most games take to go from nothing to completed world.

 

Joking aside, you have person A who hates the grind.  They find person B, who values their time less and does the grind.  Person A pays real money to DE, gets platinum, and then trades platinum to person B in order to avoid the garbage no-fun grind.  As such, DE is getting paid directly by A, so that the grind for B is better.  This is not free.  It is not low cost.  It's DE structuring things such that the grind is bad enough for A to make it financially reasonable to pay real money, whilst B is willing to farm.

 

 

If none of that makes sense, tell me how you can farm platinum.  No, not prime parts to trade for platinum.  Platinum.  You cannot, because it doesn't exist.  There's also no way to farm boosters.  The sorties offer them rarely, the in-mission containers are at most an hour, and the daily rewards offer them once every half a year after 1000 days of logging in.  As such, the idea that you can farm for boosters, to better farm, besides being a joke is incorrect.  Just because you don't directly spend money, doesn't mean that DE hasn't earned money by installing bad grind into this game.

 

-Edit-

Let me ask you one last set of questions, so maybe you can understand me.

Were you angry when DE nerfed the interaction between looting frames?  Specifically, a Hydroid-Chesa-Nekros or Khora-Chesa-Nekros team basically getting 3 loot rolls from a single death (without counting dismembering) being "unreasonable" in a looter game.  You were giving up half of a team to maximize loot drops.  Were you then furious when the next prime access included a mod drop chance booster?

Are you angry that an enemy that spawns once every 10 minutes has a 0.201% mod drop chance?  Yes, I'm talking about the rare mods from the tier 1 necramechs.  I can also say 30 minutes for for 3 chances is no better. 

Now, that's not a problem says the person claiming all of this is fine.  Instead of being furious you should pay DE real money to buy a booster.  Maybe it's not your money directly, but it was your time.  The complaint that these drop rates are unreasonable is therefore invalid because you can double it.  

 

That's stupid.  If I have to pay money to get decent drop chances then it's not a free game.  It's a game formulated to be unbearable, and extract money from us rather than to give us a reason to want to pay.  That's crap, and why this is frustrating.

-Edit end-

Edited by master_of_destiny
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25 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now I know this is an ask, because it's hard for a lot of people to fathom.  Where does platinum come from?

But I already mentioned it. You either pay with real money or pay with your time (with little bit of luck).

27 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

and the daily rewards offer them once every half a year after 1000 days of logging in.

Not sure what kind of booster, but I got probably one week worth of boosters. For free. And it was some "double weekend". In general I got 2-3x during weekends.
And I get them from time to time. I don't need to wait 1/2 year to get single booster. It might not be the booster I need.
 

30 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

As such, the idea that you can farm for boosters, to better farm, besides being a joke is incorrect.

And I haven't said it's bad.

31 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Were you angry when DE nerfed the interaction between looting frames?  Specifically, a Hydroid-Chesa-Nekros or Khora-Chesa-Nekros team basically getting 3 loot rolls from a single death (without counting dismembering) being "unreasonable" in a looter game.  You were giving up half of a team to maximize loot drops.  Were you then furious when the next prime access included a mod drop chance booster?

Are you angry that an enemy that spawns once every 10 minutes has a 0.201% mod drop chance?  Yes, I'm talking about the rare mods from the tier 1 necramechs.  I can also say 30 minutes for for 3 chances is no better. 

That's funny.... I haven't been in Nekros-oriented teams and now I have to be solo... so I don't care
Same with Necramech. It's boring thing (no offense if someone likes it, it's just not for me). So I don't really care I just farmed rank 3 to get Helminth.
Still... I get people that need it.

I get angry... nah, just disappointed that you have to be in squad to get good drop from your Relic.
Or that you need to farm X times to get one single part and you cannot just trade it.
Or that some content is locked for me because I hate some game modes (e.g. Railjack). I'm talking about Scarlet spear arcanes.
Or that I cannot kill single Eidolon without freaking specific build because my first amp (1-1-1 afair) just tickles Eidolons.

 

Lot's of content past the Octavia is like this. Either grind, RNG or require (well, not exactly but other methods would be much harder) specific frame or weapons.

The Gara was kind of nice to farm because it wasn't concentrated on one thing.

The Revenant was either "walk with some old lady through a street" or "who knows where enemies are" kind of thing. Picking mesa with her aim-bot solves this.

50 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

That's stupid.  If I have to pay money to get decent drop chances then it's not a free game.  It's a game formulated to be unbearable, and extract money from us rather than to give us a reason to want to pay.  That's crap, and why this is frustrating.

You don't have to... I guess. You can just farm argons instead. It's not like you need to infuse and subsume a lot of frames per day. Right?
I'm more "disappointed" that I need to do more specific nodes to farm resources. For example Calx has only Rubedo from non-open world and non-railjack resource. I'm not counting Hexenon because the last time I've tried to farm it with the Nekros (and the Smeeta afair) I got ~~50-60 for 40 minutes. I remember getting 100+.

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6 minutes ago, quxier said:

But I already mentioned it. You either pay with real money or pay with your time (with little bit of luck).

Not sure what kind of booster, but I got probably one week worth of boosters. For free. And it was some "double weekend". In general I got 2-3x during weekends.
And I get them from time to time. I don't need to wait 1/2 year to get single booster. It might not be the booster I need.
 

And I haven't said it's bad.

That's funny.... I haven't been in Nekros-oriented teams and now I have to be solo... so I don't care
Same with Necramech. It's boring thing (no offense if someone likes it, it's just not for me). So I don't really care I just farmed rank 3 to get Helminth.
Still... I get people that need it.

I get angry... nah, just disappointed that you have to be in squad to get good drop from your Relic.
Or that you need to farm X times to get one single part and you cannot just trade it.
Or that some content is locked for me because I hate some game modes (e.g. Railjack). I'm talking about Scarlet spear arcanes.
Or that I cannot kill single Eidolon without freaking specific build because my first amp (1-1-1 afair) just tickles Eidolons.

 

Lot's of content past the Octavia is like this. Either grind, RNG or require (well, not exactly but other methods would be much harder) specific frame or weapons.

The Gara was kind of nice to farm because it wasn't concentrated on one thing.

The Revenant was either "walk with some old lady through a street" or "who knows where enemies are" kind of thing. Picking mesa with her aim-bot solves this.

You don't have to... I guess. You can just farm argons instead. It's not like you need to infuse and subsume a lot of frames per day. Right?
I'm more "disappointed" that I need to do more specific nodes to farm resources. For example Calx has only Rubedo from non-open world and non-railjack resource. I'm not counting Hexenon because the last time I've tried to farm it with the Nekros (and the Smeeta afair) I got ~~50-60 for 40 minutes. I remember getting 100+.

 

Let me describe what you've done, so maybe you can understand the frustration.

 

Conversation begins, stating that certain resource requirements are too high.  Alternative opinion is that they aren't.  Alternative opinion is based upon somebody paying for a booster, and running an optimized group together.  This anecdote is called out as not being representative of reality, and it's far more likely that on average it will require about an hour of grinding to get the 3000 required amount of a resource.

 

You've then come back to say that new content is grindy....because.  No reason, just that it's expected that you should grind.  With all of the associated back and forth it's been highlighted that there is an expectation that we should pay DE, to fix a problem they made, and get decent drop rates via boosters.

 

You've then followed this up with gibberish.  I get a booster on the weekends is inane.  The daily rewards that offer boosters are rare during the first 1000 days, then the evergreen rewards rotate every 50 days and includes a credits/affinity/resources drop/resource quantity package every 150 days starting on day 1100.  The "I get boosters on the weekends" is either you stating a point that is useless (not the type you want), RNG luck (9.81% for a 3 day booster from the sortie), extreme RNG luck from an in-mission drop that lasts 30-60 minutes, or high luck and finite duration from the daily tribute.  It's 100% not farmable, and 100% not useful.

 

Following all of these point up is then the non-point that Calx require Rubedo.  Other than being completely irrelevant, it's incorrect.  Rubedo and Hexenon drop is regular missions.  Cubic diodes do drop from eximus units...but negligibly given the 1000+ unit requirement.  Your aversion to open worlds is irrational, given that doing these solo offers plenty of Grokdrul and Iradite simply sitting around each camp site.  The personal aversion isn't the problem, because we were originally discussing the unreasonable quantity required.  50 minutes for 3000 cryotic is double what it'll take to run a complete circuit of the plains, and in the process you'll get 2 Calx resources easily in excess of a single feeding.

 

 

Put shortly, you've co-opted a completely separate discussion, fundamentally misunderstood the premise, and taken it on a tangent for your personal choices.  None of this relates back to the core discussion of a 50 minute grind being unacceptable for a single resource, the discussion that boosters being assumed as a justification, or the point that somebody using an anecdotal instance to demonstrate that everyone complaining is unreasonable (without citing the booster) is irrational and wrong.

 

You're welcome to not like resources.  That's fine.  The discussion is not about you, it's about whether it's reasonable to assume the entire player base buys resource boosters, and if an otherwise 50 minute grind is acceptable to expect frequently.  Hate the plains, Deimos, and Orb Vallis to your heart's content.  I prefer running them 20-30 minutes over any 50 minute mission.  Especially a 50 minute mission that took literal years to have excavators scale to enemy level, and to this day the AI can break and simply decide to not spawn enemies or power carriers at random.

I'll gladly go to the open worlds as Limbo, cataclysm bomb the area, run in while in the rift, and walk away trailing resources galore until I get out of combat and get huge piles of stuff without ever actually firing a weapon.  20-30 minutes is often more like 10 when you combine archwing, cataclysm bombing, and just a little thought.  That's a reasonable grind...in harsh opposition to 50 minute of excavators.

 

-Side note, Lucent Teroglobes.  The one resource that somehow gives 60% instead of literally everything else giving 30%.  Open worlds may not be ideal, but are a good and stupid farm.  More importantly, they're rewarding in ways excavations are not, they don't depend on RNG, and it's always available unlike fissure missions.

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30 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me describe what you've done, so maybe you can understand the frustration.

I'm just correcting what I think you said wrong. I'm not saying that something is reasonable or not.

34 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Put shortly, you've co-opted a completely separate discussion, fundamentally misunderstood the premise, and taken it on a tangent for your personal choices.  None of this relates back to the core discussion of a 50 minute grind being unacceptable for a single resource, the discussion that boosters being assumed as a justification, or the point that somebody using an anecdotal instance to demonstrate that everyone complaining is unreasonable (without citing the booster) is irrational and wrong.

I'm sorry to put my "not liked things" when you gave yours.

I don't understand your frustration. It's not like you have to farm 3k cryotics. You get argons & Morphics, and some other open world and railjack resources.
Sure 3k requires too much stuff... but, again, you don't have to do it (unless you need infuse a lot things in same day). But that's general problem not only related to cryotic.

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2 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm just correcting what I think you said wrong. I'm not saying that something is reasonable or not.

I'm sorry to put my "not liked things" when you gave yours.

I don't understand your frustration. It's not like you have to farm 3k cryotics. You get argons & Morphics, and some other open world and railjack resources.
Sure 3k requires too much stuff... but, again, you don't have to do it (unless you need infuse a lot things in same day). But that's general problem not only related to cryotic.

 

You still don't get it.

 

The argument here is simple, 3000 cryotic is numerically too much.  That's it.  It's out of line, and can numerically be proven as such,

 

 

You're more than welcome to an opinion.  You're more than welcome to hate activities.  I have no qualms with that.  What you are doing is latching onto a very different discussion, and that's the frustration.

Do you hate railjack and open world resources being a large part of Calx?  Great, make the comment and be heard.  It's frustrating when you hijack a very different discussion to make the point.  As a hint, I'd never have said anything if you said that Calx needed new resources.  I in fact hope you do make that argument.  I'm frustrated that instead of making a clear argument towards a point that you hold reasonably you're latching onto a very different one and pulling it in a fundamentally different direction.

 

Please make the argument that Calx is a problem.  Please identify issues you have, and make a reasonable argument.  What is not useful is co-opting a very different discussion, and injecting useless static.  It's the fastest way to kill the argument under the weight of tangents, and to kill your own opinion by virtue of having it lost as well.  Instead, you should make your points clear, and distinct, so that they might get the attention they deserve.

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45 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

...

Maybe you should make a topic yourself? I'm used to way such posts in random topic have a lot of different talks. It's not hijacking, it's the way it is. If you expect concise and not-derailed talk then make a topic.
It's not my intention to make you angry or something. If you think I said something wrong then I'll stop. If you want talk more you can always reach me via PM.
 

 

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6 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

the sheer barrage of tl;dr posts is sure to drive the cost of cryotic down, down, down

If your value fits into a single sentence, then maybe stop talking and just gurgle. 

 

It's about as intellectually valuable as ****-posting, which you seem to love.

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

Maybe you should make a topic yourself? I'm used to way such posts in random topic have a lot of different talks. It's not hijacking, it's the way it is. If you expect concise and not-derailed talk then make a topic.
It's not my intention to make you angry or something. If you think I said something wrong then I'll stop. If you want talk more you can always reach me via PM.
 

 

 

1) I don't care about what you care about, until you give me a reason.

2) Look at Traubenzuckr's response, and understand what this conversation stems from.

3) If you have a point make it, but if you want to hijack a conversation don't be surprised when somebody responds poorly.  If you want to talk do it, but trying to latch on to a long conversation with a tangent is not appreciated.  That's the point.

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On 2020-09-29 at 5:57 PM, Leqesai said:

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Crytotic and the railjack resources are disproportionately expensive. Crytotic is exceptionally slow to farm. It should not take 30 excavations to feed helminth one time.

Your own logic, Argon being too expensive, is laughable when you can pretty consistently get enough Argon to feed helminth in less time than it would take to do 30 excavations. 

 

I do agree that adding more options is a nice change.

To be clear, I actually agree with you that if these were things anyone was going to farm, they would be totally imbalanced.  But again, I didn't think farming was to be involved for Helminth (it was just a dump for excess) and Cryotic is completely useless once you've built Sibear.  It stacks up into the numerous tens of thousands for any players that use Excavation as their primary means of opening void relics.  The cost in Cryotic represents an obscene amount of time, but many players naturally spend obscene amounts of time in Excavation (for other reasons) with no use for the Cryotic earned.

But even by my logic of it being a dump for excess resources, I can't argue with the Railjack resources being absurd in their first iteration.  Since there isn't a repeatable reason to do Railjack once its initial progression has been beaten (or for the overachiever, all Little Duck captura scenes to extend it a bit longer), these things do not build up.  Our excess stores would be orders of magnitude lower than the original costs DE gave us - which is why I liked this change to reduce them.

Anyway, I don't meaningfully disagree with you.  I just think people should stop looking at these costs in terms of the farming time it represents, and more in terms of how much it dents their stockpiles of what builds up as collateral to ordinary activities.  Excavation is a common activity; Railjack is not.  Argon literally cannot build up because it decays.  Hence my stance on the matter, as weird and counterintuitive it may look when I'm knowingly proposing something that takes 5 minutes (3 Argon) bothers me more than something that takes 30 complete rounds of Excavation (3,000 Cryotic).

Also, sorry this reply is like a week late.  Had some computer troubles and only saw it now.

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