Jump to content

So can we talk about the glory that is the new Phage and Phantasma?


Recommended Posts

So the Phage has become a monster of a weapon since the shotgun status/multishot changes. While most shotguns didn't change much, except the Tigris line getting gutted to the ground. The Phgae and Phantasma have become probably among the highest DPS primaries in the game. Making beam shotguns probably the best primary arch type in the game.

 

So we all know primaries don't come close to rival the DPS of melee. But Phage and Phantasma IMO are the closest to them. Phage with stacking 10 viral procs, 10 corrosive procs, and 50 heat procs in a second. And Phantasma stacking 200 heat procs in a second for decent raw DPS and mad DoT DPS.

 

More primaries should be buffed to the level of Phage.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What are you talking about?

literally every status based shotgun that wasn’t Kohm and Exergis got a massive nerf from the status changes. Because as it turns out changing the calculations so shotguns aren’t stuck at 30% per pellet doesn’t matter when the average shotgun build that used to reach 100% status now only reaches around 30% status.

And it wasn’t the nerfs that made Phantasma and Phage good. They were already good before the nerfs, then they were made MR fodder by the nerfs then some stealth buff fixed something that was wrong with them and now their at like 50% of where they were before the nerfs.

 

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

What are you talking about?

literally every status based shotgun that wasn’t Kohm and Exergis got a massive nerf from the status changes. Because as it turns out changing the calculations so shotguns aren’t stuck at 30% per pellet doesn’t matter when the average shotgun build that used to reach 100% status now only reaches around 30% status.

And it wasn’t the nerfs that made Phantasma and Phage good. They were already good before the nerfs, then they were made MR fodder by the nerfs then some stealth buff fixed something that was wrong with them and now their at like 50% of where they were before the nerfs.

 

You clearly haven't tried out the Phage or Phantasma then nor do you know where they were before the status changes.

 

First before Viral stacking changes, Phage being able to stack Viral and corrosive was not a huge deal, nor was there any worth in heat. Status changes made Viral?corrosive/Heat stacking insanely power.

 

Second, the way status worked for Phage was that it could proc a status per second per tentacle. The current Phage has 15.5% status chance per tentacle per x12 as it has a base fire rate of 12 rounds. Meaning if we do math, we have an effective status proc per second of 182% before fire rate or status mods. And using status mods and fire rate, that number goes up by a large margin. If you actually use the weapon with a proper build, you will see it's damage numbers come along with 3 status procs.

 

Also Phantasma had mediocre DPS before the changes, Now Phantasma has the highest status proc rate for any weapon in the game. 200 heat procs in a single magazine is no joke. And if you think Phantasma was better before, you clearly don't know how to mod it currently. 100k+ heat procs along with the base damage DPS and possibly adding 10 viral prics in under a second is very strong.

 

I genuinely think you haven't been using these weapons at all if you think they are worse now than before.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TangyBlueBerry said:

You clearly haven't tried out the Phage or Phantasma then nor do you know where they were before the status changes.

 

First before Viral stacking changes, Phage being able to stack Viral and corrosive was not a huge deal, nor was there any worth in heat. Status changes made Viral?corrosive/Heat stacking insanely power.

 

Second, the way status worked for Phage was that it could proc a status per second per tentacle. The current Phage has 15.5% status chance per tentacle per x12 as it has a base fire rate of 12 rounds. Meaning if we do math, we have an effective status proc per second of 182% before fire rate or status mods. And using status mods and fire rate, that number goes up by a large margin. If you actually use the weapon with a proper build, you will see it's damage numbers come along with 3 status procs.

 

Also Phantasma had mediocre DPS before the changes, Now Phantasma has the highest status proc rate for any weapon in the game. 200 heat procs in a single magazine is no joke. And if you think Phantasma was better before, you clearly don't know how to mod it currently. 100k+ heat procs along with the base damage DPS and possibly adding 10 viral prics in under a second is very strong.

 

I genuinely think you haven't been using these weapons at all if you think they are worse now than before.

Before the nerfs my Phantasma could deplete nearly 95% of a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunners health  with its full clip. Now it only depletes 50% of their health.

Just because the actual status chance is 182% without dividing it amongst the pellets does not mean that’s the actual proc chance of the weapon. That’s like saying “I have a 20% chance to win the lottery. Therefore I will buy 10 tickets so I have a 200% chance of winning”. That’s not how math works.

I don’t think you used Phantasma before the nerfs. Because if you did you would not be saying it only dealt mediocre damage before. It had a 100% status chance before and it made that weapon incredible.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TangyBlueBerry said:

Also Phantasma had mediocre DPS before the changes, Now Phantasma has the highest status proc rate for any weapon in the game. 200 heat procs in a single magazine is no joke.

What heat procs? The weapon is radiation based.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And it wasn’t the nerfs that made Phantasma and Phage good. They were already good before the nerfs, then they were made MR fodder by the nerfs then some stealth buff fixed something that was wrong with them and now their at like 50% of where they were before the nerfs.

Nah, pre shotgun pellet nerf beam shotguns were just beam weapons with downsides of shotguns. Now each beam of the beam shotguns is actually independent/they have almost un-nerfed status chance and the fire rate to make use of so many instances since they are now actual shotguns. Aka they are behaving how they always should have but with 2.2x the status chance.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

What heat procs? The weapon is radiation based.

Elemental mods.

6 hours ago, TangyBlueBerry said:

So the Phage has become a monster of a weapon since the shotgun status/multishot changes. While most shotguns didn't change much, except the Tigris line getting gutted to the ground. The Phgae and Phantasma have become probably among the highest DPS primaries in the game. Making beam shotguns probably the best primary arch type in the game.

People aint talking much because it are the only status shotguns along with the exergis that survived the status by pellet nerf in a way approximate to what DE promised shotguns would. Most of the work is done by heat procs either way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Nah, pre shotgun pellet nerf beam shotguns were just beam weapons with downsides of shotguns. Now each beam of the beam shotguns is actually independent/they have almost un-nerfed status chance and the fire rate to make use of so many instances since they are now actual shotguns. Aka they are behaving how they always should have but with 2.2x the status chance.

Almost un-nerfed? It lost half its status chance.

You know before the nerf each beam of Phantasma could reach 100% status individually, right? Like that was the thing that made it as good as it was.

I think you guys have all seriously forgotten how good Phantasma was before DE nerfed shotguns, and have a very big misunderstanding of the math shotguns now work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

people don't talk about Phase and Phantasma because they thought they were bad before, and still think so, and never used them past Mastery.

but yes, they have some incredibly strong features to offer. Phage by far overshadowing the Hybrid nature that it had to offer before, now being almost unbelievable at how flexible a Hybrid Weapon it is. the thing just does everything.

and Phantasma is quite powerful too but can't reach quite as high pedastal since it lacks Crits and doesn't come with the benefit of innate Viral.
but also considerably better than it was before, for sure. where it completely relied on spamming Corrosive Status to be useful (aside from Gas on the Alt-Fire, that was pretty good). but now Phantasma can do legitimate Damage with how Status works on Continuous Weapons in conjunction with the overall Status changes.

 

Phage isn't really my sort of Weapon, but an incredibly remarkable Weapon it is, for sure.
instead though, the masses get all excited about Exergis as if it really performs all that well - applying a couple Slash Status here and there is cute and all but that Status rate is not exactly exciting. it's just 'fine'. or get excited about Kohm which is relatively good but it's not more than that.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

What heat procs? The weapon is radiation based.

do you like, not use Mods on any Weapons in this game?

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-09-30 at 2:55 PM, TangyBlueBerry said:

Second, the way status worked for Phage was that it could proc a status per second per tentacle. The current Phage has 15.5% status chance per tentacle per x12 as it has a base fire rate of 12 rounds. Meaning if we do math, we have an effective status proc per second of 182% before fire rate or status mods.

That's not really saying much. For comparison, the Convectrix (45% SC per tick, 12 ticks per second) has an effective status/second of 540%.

Phage has a dreadful status proc rate (and kinda crappy stats in general) compared to many other beam weapons. The reason it's so powerful is because Corrosive+Viral is just that insane of a combo, which most weapons don't have access to.

On 2020-09-30 at 2:55 PM, TangyBlueBerry said:

Also Phantasma had mediocre DPS before the changes, Now Phantasma has the highest status proc rate for any weapon in the game. 200 heat procs in a single magazine is no joke.

Wee bit of an exaggeration, no?

With every single Status mod equipped (including a perfect riven), the Phantasma can get a ~139% SC per tick, with 22 ticks (11 ammo) in the magazine. So, about 31 procs in a magazine. Not quite at the level of 200 heat procs per magazine, I don't think.

On 2020-09-30 at 2:55 PM, TangyBlueBerry said:

I genuinely think you haven't been using these weapons at all if you think they are worse now than before.

In terms of raw stats, Phage and Phantasma both got hella nerfed like most other shotguns (despite beam weapons not even receiving more procs from multishot in the first place... not that I'm still bitter about that or anything). The reason that they perform so much better these days is due to the ridiculously insane buff that Viral got, which (Phage aside) can be said about literally every other status weapon.

 

EDIT:

23 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Now each beam of the beam shotguns is actually independent/they have almost un-nerfed status chance and the fire rate to make use of so many instances since they are now actual shotguns.

Not the case at all. Beam weapons don't proc more statuses when Multishot is added.

Multiple beams dealing damage at once will simply merge their damage into a single, larger tick. The number of actual ticks (i.e. Status proc rolls) is unaffected, whether your weapon has 1 beam or 99999 beams.

 

EDIT2:

I WAS WRONG. IGNORE EVERYTHING THAT I SAID IN THIS POST. ESPECIALLY THAT LAST BIT.

IT TURNS OUT THAT MULTIPLE BEAMS WILL STILL MERGE INTO A SINGLE DAMAGE TICK, BUT THE STATUS CHANCE OF THIS TICK IS NOW MULTIPLIED BY THE NUMBER OF BEAMS.

Edited by SortaRandom
Link to post
Share on other sites

Outside the Slash based shotguns, the real nerf to shotguns was the cap on Corrosive. With the removal of 4xIPS priority and despite the removal of 100% status, status shotguns can easily get you 6-10 stacks of your combined elemental on the the first shot (And it's the first few procs that have the most value, especially for Viral). 100% status would have gotten you 10 on the first shot guaranteed but this discrepancy is nothing compared to the Corrosive cap.

Sortie level heavy units have 6000ish armor and 95% damage reduction. Strip 80% of it down to 1200 and they still have 80% Damage Reduction. 

5% of your damage going through to 20% going through is just a 4x multiplier which is weaker than Viral's 4.25x which is a far cry from the ability to just strip the 20x health multiplier with your Strun Wraith before the status changes came down.

The ability to combine both Corrosive and Viral opens up to you getting a 17x multiplier when you stack both of them allows you to get close to what the old Corrosive allowed you to do.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Not the case at all. Beam weapons don't proc more statuses when Multishot is added.

This was changed a few months ago (shortly after the actual status/pellet changes) and is the reason those 2 weapons (& Convetrix) deal serious damage. Thus it is actually quite possible to reach hundreds of procs from one Phantasma clip. 

Edited by ShortCat
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Not the case at all. Beam weapons don't proc more statuses when Multishot is added.

Multiple beams dealing damage at once will simply merge their damage into a single, larger tick. The number of actual ticks (i.e. Status proc rolls) is unaffected, whether your weapon has 1 beam or 99999 beams.

Beam shotguns do, because they are now actual shotguns firing beams instead of just beams with all the downsides of shotguns also slapped on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Outside the Slash based shotguns, the real nerf to shotguns was the cap on Corrosive.

Nope, the real nerf was DE nerfing status by pellet count. A tigris prime if its status was tripled (90% probability per shot) should have had 25% status chance per pellet, not 11% as per how probability works, instead they just nerfed by pellet count making all status shotguns (that arent beams and pre spool khom) about as bad at status as their non status rivals. Hell hek is now a better slash shotgun than tigris simply because HM viability and weighting changes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just in to say that Phage used to be one of my favourites, and I periodically try it after any hotfixes/changes that affect it.

I still don't think it holds up in any actual combat scenarios. I've got 3 different rivens suited for some pretty diverse builds, and I still enjoy the weapon but it's never in my top pick for serious high-level gameplay beyond testing new builds.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Almost un-nerfed? It lost half its status chance.

You know before the nerf each beam of Phantasma could reach 100% status individually, right? Like that was the thing that made it as good as it was.

I think you guys have all seriously forgotten how good Phantasma was before DE nerfed shotguns, and have a very big misunderstanding of the math shotguns now work.

Pre pellet nerf beam shotguns werent shotguns at all. All the tendrils counted as the same beam/couldnt apply more procs per target than its fire rate unless you were doing alt fire taps. The change for them to actually be shotguns instead of beams with shotgun downsides is what brought phage form nearly unusably bad without ammo mutation+ carrier if you wanted to have ok kill time to heat monster.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This was changed a few months ago (shortly after the actual status/pellet changes) and is the reason those 2 weapons (& Convetrix) deal serious damage. Thus it is actually quite possible to reach hundreds of procs from one Phantasma clip. 

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Beam shotguns do, because they are now actual shotguns firing beams

So I just tested in the simulacrum, and... holy crap. You're right.

It seems that the damage per tick still "merges" into a single number when multiple beams deal damage, BUT the status chance for this tick is simply increased by the number of beams touching. So any damage-based status proc (Slash, Toxin, etc) effectively double-dips into multishot in terms of effectiveness-- because not only is it proccing way more often, but its damage per proc directly scales from multishot as well.

 

I have absolutely no bloody clue how this slipped under my radar. Do you happen to have a link to the patch notes where this change was made? Cause this is... huge.

Edited by SortaRandom
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

So I just tested in the simulacrum, and... holy crap. You're right.

It seems that the damage per tick still "merges" into a single number when multiple beams deal damage, BUT the status chance for this tick is simply increased by the number of beams touching. So any damage-based status proc (Slash, Toxin, etc) effectively double-dips into multishot in terms of effectiveness-- because not only is it proccing way more often, but its damage per proc directly scales from multishot as well.

 

I have absolutely no bloody clue how this slipped under my radar. Do you happen to have a link to the patch notes where this change was made? Cause this is... huge.

Its not double dipping, beam shotgun multishot adds extra tendrils/beams (you can see that in captura after letting time run for a moment or two to fix the fact that beams are effect rendered based on camera). So its just treating all shots as 1 shot when converged in case of phage effectively just undoing the nerf by pellet into what promised shotgun status should have been.

TLDR: Beam shotguns follow old ui and shotgun base multishot rules for multishot/damage display.

Edited by Andele3025
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not double dipping, beam shotgun multishot adds extra tendrils/beams (you can see that in captura after letting time run for a moment or two to fix the fact that beams are effect rendered based on camera). So its just treating all shots as 1 shot when converged in case of phage effectively just undoing the nerf by pellet into what promised shotgun status should have been.

I feel like there's a misunderstanding-- I was saying that the damage of damaging procs effectively double-dips on multishot.

Like, let's consider a hypothetical beam shotgun with pure Toxin damage:

  • Multishot: 5.0
    Beam damage: 10 per tick (50 per tick when all five beams touch)
    Status chance: 20%/beam
    Toxic proc damage for 1 beam: 4 per tick

and a statistically identical pellet shotgun:

  • Multishot: 5.0
    Pellet damage: 10 per tick (5 ticks of 10 damage when all five pellets hit)
    Status chance: 20%/pellet
    Toxic proc damage for 1 pellet: 4 per tick

 

So, if you shoot a target with the pellet shotgun, then you get 5 ticks of 10 damage, each with a 20% chance to proc. The number of procs will vary, but on average, you'll get ~1 toxin proc per shot, dealing 4 damage per tick.

On the other hand, the beam weapon will deal 1 tick of 50 damage, with exactly a 100% chance to proc (I THINK-- I'll have to test out a Kuva Nukor with R4 Barrel Diffusion or something when I have time, just to be sure Yep, this is how it's calculated!). And because the tick that landed the proc dealt 5x damage, the tick damage of the toxin proc does 20 damage instead of the expected 4.

 

TL;DR

If you have a weapon that does DoT procs, then you'd normally expect the overall damage of the DoT to increase with multishot.
For beam weapons, though, the overall damage of the DoT increases with multishot^2.

Edited by SortaRandom
Tested out Kuva Nukor with multishot. It does indeed multiply status chance per tick.
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

TL;DR

If you have a weapon that does DoT procs, then you'd normally expect the overall damage of the DoT to increase with multishot.
For beam weapons, though, the overall damage of the DoT increases with multishot^2.

Except it doesnt. Multishot doesnt effect individual beam damage on beam shotties where extra beams are added. Its just they are really high fire rate shotguns whose status chance wasnt/was the least effected by per pellet nerf.

 

P.S. Nukor aint a shotty, its a regular beam. Only options are convectrix, phantasma and phage (each having its own quirks).

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it doesnt. Multishot doesnt effect individual beam damage on beam shotties where extra beams are added. Its just they are really high fire rate shotguns whose status chance wasnt/was the least effected by per pellet nerf.

Yeah, you're definitely misunderstanding. Please read what I'm saying.

I didn't say that multishot affects individual beam damage. I'm saying that it affects both the chances of procs happening, and the damage of each proc if applicable (hence, double-dipping).

The fact that most beam shotguns get to tick 12 times per second on top of their already-broken status mechanics is another topic entirely 😂

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

P.S. Nukor aint a shotty, its a regular beam.

Oh thank you, never would've known.

But seriously, all beam weapons function identically when multishot gets involved. The only difference is that Phage/Phantasma/Convectrix/Basmu/etc have multishot at base, whereas other beam weapons get their multishot from mods.

 

 

All of this is very, very easy to test ingame.

Like, go ahead and slap a toxin mod on a Phantasma, and spray a tanky enemy with it. Observe the number of procs that happen in one magazine, along with the tick damage of each proc. Then try it again with added multishot and see how both numbers (not just the number of procs) change.

Then, replicate the experiment with a Kuva Nukor (or your single-beam weapon of choice) and observe how the exact same thing happens.

Edited by SortaRandom
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Yeah, you're definitely misunderstanding. Please read what I'm saying.

I didn't say that multishot affects individual beam damage. I'm saying that it affects both the chances of procs happening, and the damage of each proc if applicable (hence, double-dipping).

The fact that most beam shotguns get to tick 12 times per second on top of their already-broken status mechanics is another topic entirely 😂

Oh thank you, never would've known.

But seriously, all beam weapons function identically when multishot gets involved. The only difference is that Phage/Phantasma/Convectrix/Basmu/etc have multishot at base, whereas other beam weapons get their multishot from mods.

Are you confusing the fact that DE made dot ticks converge/show as just one number? Because multishot doesnt effect the damage of a dot unless its a non-shotgun beam weapon/single beam weapon because there multishot mods work like just extra damage (check patch 22.13 if you're confused or simply compare a non-converged phage beam with no mods vs one with 100% multishot). And no, the chance per damage instance is the same just as with all shotties and the chance of proc total scales with multishot just as every other non-beam weapons.
Beam shotties are just beam weapons that behave the same way as multishot does on all other weapons where you can effectively have multishot.

TLDR: go into simulacrum, unmodded unconverged phage vs punc deimos boy, 2-3 damage a tick (or 5 damage on crit) depending on if you're hitting the resist shoulder or body (-50% from viral rez). Now add again with multishot, no damage change. It doesnt double dip.


Now if you're arguing over the fact that they have effectively status chance that wasnt nerfed by pellet count, welcome to the world of 100% status shotguns pre status changes, thats the intended functionality of them according to DE themselves.
Oh and 12+ fire rate is merely compensation for the sub 10+ damage a beam shotties have vs 90+ per pellet base damage real shotties have to simulate the fact that they are continuous beams. And no changing it so that they are limited on procs is just trashing the weapons status builds as history has proven when that was a thing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...