So can we talk about the glory that is the new Phage and Phantasma?

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Do you happen to have a link to the patch notes where this change was made?

Hotfix 27.2.2

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-10-01 at 9:51 AM, Andele3025 said:

Pre pellet nerf beam shotguns werent shotguns at all. All the tendrils counted as the same beam/couldnt apply more procs per target than its fire rate unless you were doing alt fire taps. The change for them to actually be shotguns instead of beams with shotgun downsides is what brought phage form nearly unusably bad without ammo mutation+ carrier if you wanted to have ok kill time to heat monster.

I’m about 99% sure the multiple beams being counted as one is what the shotgun nerfs did.

[Andele3025]

Bit of a test, seems like i was wrong and DE undid the multishot as damage on non shotty beams and now all just get extra beams. Well nice that its consistent now. You dont get any extra base damage on procs tho/individual ticks dont have the older multishot damage boost tho so point still stands.

[DoomFruit]

On 2020-10-01 at 8:28 AM, (XB1)Rez090 said:

Won't the heat mod boost the rad? Cause heat + electricity is radiation.

Nope. If a weapon has native dual element damage, then it keeps that native damage regardless of what elements you add - even if those added elements are what would ordinarily make up the native dual. This is why I only ever go for radiation or magnetic on kuva weapons, and why the Phage here is so good. Tysis too - viral, corrosive, radiation and slash procs all on one very high status chance weapon.

Try it yourself - take the arca plasmor (native pure radiation), then give it a heat mod. Or use the tysis and give it electric, or any rocket/grenade weapon (they almost always have blast damage) and give that heat.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-10-02 at 7:50 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m about 99% sure the multiple beams being counted as one is what the shotgun nerfs did.

Apologies if it was the phrasing which was confusing, but the point was pre status changes/shotgun status by pellet nerf, all beams hitting a same target would still trigger the same amount of status chance as one/they all counted as the same one beam aka effectively as if only hit by one pellet. Now they all count together (so 5 beams with 11 fire rate at 100% could proc 55 procs. Its why Vicious spread on phantasma aint that amazing anymore as now you're actually losing on proc output when the beams wiggle left right off target.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

30 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Apologies if it was the phrasing which was confusing, but the point was pre status changes/shotgun status by pellet nerf, all beams hitting a same target would still trigger the same amount of status chance as one/they all counted as the same one beam aka effectively as if only hit by one pellet. Now they all count together (so 5 beams with 11 fire rate at 100% could proc 55 procs. Its why Vicious spread on phantasma aint that amazing anymore as now you're actually losing on proc output when the beams wiggle left right off target.

No, they counted as separate beams. It’s why Brozime had to make a second video on it because he initially wasn't aware that Phantasma had several beams and thought it was just a singular beam. 

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, they counted as separate beams. It’s why Brozime had to make a second video on it because he initially wasn't aware that Phantasma had several beams and thought it was just a singular beam. 

He had to make a separate video because he used sub 100% status thinking its one beam. It did behave like one beam tho on target and why its terrible pre 100% status chance was terrible and he trashed it. It still coulnt proc more than its fire rate worth of procs per target because no matter the amount of beams you hit a target with it, it counted as just one beam/single pellet/multishot for the sake of status.

Again point about how beam shotties used to be beams with extra downsides of shotties, not shotguns that shoot beams.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

He had to make a separate video because he used sub 100% status thinking its one beam. It did behave like one beam tho on target and why its terrible pre 100% status chance was terrible and he trashed it. It still coulnt proc more than its fire rate worth of procs per target because no matter the amount of beams you hit a target with it, it counted as just one beam/single pellet/multishot for the sake of status.

Again point about how beam shotties used to be beams with extra downsides of shotties, not shotguns that shoot beams.

You’re not making any sense. Shotguns that didn’t have 100% status on them sucked because of the way their shots worked. So Phantasma being bad without 100% status proves that the beams were all considered separate beams and procced separately.

[taiiat]

On 2020-10-01 at 4:37 PM, SortaRandom said:

I feel like there's a misunderstanding-- I was saying that the damage of damaging procs effectively double-dips on multishot.

doesn't seem like it in use, if i take say, __% Electricity, and Multiply that by 100 for applying that many Status Effects, the DoT i actually get seems to about line up with the expected number.
where 225% Electricity and apply about 100 Status Effects gets to be around 10,000-11,000, which is about what i got when testing.

 

though........ i just tested that again and compared with numbers fresher in memory, and.... hmm. just raw DoT * stacks doesn't add up to enough. applied ~60 Elec Status with Phantasma but 44.7*60 doesn't add up to the presented DoT. calculation says i should have ~2700, but the actual DoT was ~19,000.
though, Multiplying that by 6 to account for the number of innate Beams didn't get there either. it's close but ~16,000 and ~19,000 seems far enough part that it shouldn't explain it.

and the Crits are super low so i should be able to rule those out, not getting Headshots - so there might be some quikkmaffs involved with what Warframe is doing here, yeah.
strangely though, Convectrix didn't seem to express this behavior, just Phage and Phantasma.

[shut]

On 2020-10-05 at 12:55 AM, taiiat said:

doesn't seem like it in use, if i take say, __% Electricity, and Multiply that by 100 for applying that many Status Effects, the DoT i actually get seems to about line up with the expected number.
where 225% Electricity and apply about 100 Status Effects gets to be around 10,000-11,000, which is about what i got when testing.

 

though........ i just tested that again and compared with numbers fresher in memory, and.... hmm. just raw DoT * stacks doesn't add up to enough. applied ~60 Elec Status with Phantasma but 44.7*60 doesn't add up to the presented DoT. calculation says i should have ~2700, but the actual DoT was ~19,000.
though, Multiplying that by 6 to account for the number of innate Beams didn't get there either. it's close but ~16,000 and ~19,000 seems far enough part that it shouldn't explain it.

and the Crits are super low so i should be able to rule those out, not getting Headshots - so there might be some quikkmaffs involved with what Warframe is doing here, yeah.
strangely though, Convectrix didn't seem to express this behavior, just Phage and Phantasma.

I think your calculations might be messing up because having more than 10 DoT procs active at the same time causes additional tick numbers to start to merge. You'll get more consistent results if you keep the number of active DoT procs below 10.  ^{holy crap i suck at reading lol}
Getting multiple perfectly-simultaneous DoT procs with >100% Status Chance will merge their numbers together as well. Like, if an Electric proc deals 20 damage per tick, then scoring three simultaneous Electric procs will produce a single DoT dealing 60 damage per tick.

Maybe try tap-firing the weapon and dealing only one instance of damage at a time? I was able to get consistent results this way that verified my claim, using both the Phantasma (6* beams at base) and Kuva Nukor (1 beam at base).

 

EDIT: Actually, quick question-- when you say "the expected number" at the start of your post... are you talking about the expected number if one beam hits? Or is Multishot part of your calculation as well?

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Getting multiple perfectly-simultaneous DoT procs with >100% Status Chance will merge their numbers together as well.

EDIT: Actually, quick question-- when you say "the expected number" at the start of your post... are you talking about the expected number if one beam hits? Or is Multishot part of your calculation as well?

right, but i fail to see Damage Number merging as a problem here. if a DoT with __ Mods deals __ Damage, then 60 of them should be roughly 60x that.

expected, as in calculating what i would expect the number to be on paper and comparing with what i actually get.

 

it's clear that these types of Weapons are getting more than just DoT * stacks. i'm just taking some shots in the dark as to what might explain it.

i don't remember if i tried comparing base with max Multi-Shot and seeing if there's different numbers at the same number of stacks. probably should do that.

 

Edit: oh.....
60x Elec Status
base 6x: ~19,500
Multi ~17x(wtf why does the Arsenal say 15? 6*2.8 is definitely atleast 16, sigh w/e): ~38,800

 

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

right, but i fail to see Damage Number merging as a problem here. if a DoT with __ Mods deals __ Damage, then 60 of them should be roughly 60x that.

Ramp (up to around first 100 procs if you got a fire rate mod and decent status  will be up to 70% weaker than after shooting at a enemy for a bit due to ramp time of 0.6s), headshots, vigilante/crits, stagger/stealth state, etc are all in play with 100+ rolls a second so variance naturally happens. Also using harrow q or slow from frost or equi and shooting enemies bigger models from behind in the legs is a nice option to avoid damage influencing since ai pause in sim still has its issues.

Also beam shotties have a phantom/base hitcheck beam, so its (base multishot - 1) x (1+multishot value) +1 for real ms result. (aka 5x2.8+1) and merely getting extra crit or headshots 4-6% of the time with 200+ ticks can end up with a massive variance in dot damage (so if you dont wanna do 80+ enemies and writing down stacks and dot ramp via game capture, standardizing for crits with full vigilante sentinel might be good).

Oh and naturally what sorta random kinda noted on, make sure you actually try and compare it based on number of beams you are hitting a enemy with because of the prior noted now deleted posts explaining how dots applied under same game timer tick get fused under the hood (leading to infinite heat procs on warframes being possible despite status being capped to 1 stack as it just adds to itself on the same tick ignoring application time and a few rooms able to stack toxin too, but in turn our beam weapons and multihit melee able to merge their procs too... not to mention condi duration in non heat cases running out mid tick). Still wouldnt suggest wasting too much time on the grokdrool WF ui is doing now since the actual check on if DE forgot to change how mods themselves used to have worked is easily done with just a single phage beam with vs without multishot.

[shut]

19 hours ago, taiiat said:

right, but i fail to see Damage Number merging as a problem here. if a DoT with __ Mods deals __ Damage, then 60 of them should be roughly 60x that.

expected, as in calculating what i would expect the number to be on paper and comparing with what i actually get.

 

it's clear that these types of Weapons are getting more than just DoT * stacks. i'm just taking some shots in the dark as to what might explain it.

i don't remember if i tried comparing base with max Multi-Shot and seeing if there's different numbers at the same number of stacks. probably should do that.

 

Edit: oh.....
60x Elec Status
base 6x: ~19,500
Multi ~17x(wtf why does the Arsenal say 15? 6*2.8 is definitely atleast 16, sigh w/e): ~38,800

 

I ran a really, really rough test a few hours ago (using a mostly-unmodded Phantasma with some toxin damage and status chance, with and without multishot, and then aggressively spraying a Kyta Raknoid point-blank with it) and got kinda similar results.
With Hell's Chamber and Vigilante Armaments, I was getting toxin proc ticks of ~450 damage with ~140 procs active.
With the same build minus all of the status mods, I was getting toxin proc ticks of ~85 damage with ~60 procs active. (SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE. I don't remember the actual numbers; this is a very rough ballpark.) In any case, if you divide tick damage by `DoT procs active - 10`, it's pretty apparent that multishot is directly increasing the effective DoT damage per beam. Exactly how much it increases this damage, I'm not sure-- the inconsistent tick damage is really bothering me.

 

I did a more controlled test a few days ago where I actually recorded the results (and posted it in this thread, but it got removed). Basically, this time I tap-fired the beam for the shortest time possible, so as to minimize the initial "ramp-up" damage from continuously firing a beam. As mentioned above, any DoT procs that happen simultaneously get their numbers combined together. All of this is tested with every possible beam making contact with its target. And of course, all of this is tested without crits or headshots or anything.
Thankfully, the results are a LOT more consistent here.

Target: Corpus Tech

Weapons: Phantasma (6 beams, 22.2% SC each), Kuva Nukor w/ ~43% bonus Magnetic (1 beam, 50% SC).

Build: +90% Toxin and that's it. Phantasma was tested with and without R5 Hell's Chamber (+120% Multi), and KNukor was tested with and without R4 Barrel Diffusion (+100% Multi). Additional status chance (Shotgun Savvy, etc) was added whenever I wanted to try landing more simultaneous toxic procs.

Results:

PHANTASMA, no multishot

• 0 proc: n/a                       (impossible without a negative Status riven, despite stat window displaying 22.2% SC/beam)
• 1 proc: 21-24 damage/tick
• 2 proc: 47 damage/tick   (rare without additional status mods)

PHANTASMA, +120% multishot

• 0 proc: n/a                       (impossible without a negative Status riven, despite stat window displaying 22.2% SC/beam)
• 1 proc: 47 damage/tick
• 2 proc: 93 damage/tick
• 3 proc: 139 damage/tick
   

KUVA NUKOR, no multishot

• 0 proc: n/a
• 1 proc: 16 damage/tick

KUVA NUKOR, +100% multishot

• 0 proc: n/a                       (impossible without a negative Status riven, despite stat window displaying 50% SC)
• 1 proc: 31 damage/tick
• 2 proc: 60 damage/tick   (impossible without additional status mods, despite there being 2 beams)
• 3 proc: 90 damage/tick   (impossible without additional status mods)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bit of an info dump there, but the tl;dr is that multishot seems to directly increase the damage of each DoT proc, which doesn't happen on any other weapon type (pellet, projectile, etc). The behaviour seems consistent between both single-beam weapons and multi-beam weapons.

My (unproven) prediction as to why this is happening: I think it's simply because when multiple beams touch a target, the damage that each beam would do simply merges into a single, larger tick-- and that single, larger tick is being used to calculate the damage whenever a proc happens. What are your thoughts on this?

EDIT: I repeated this test with Gas damage (which can only have 1 DoT active at a time, and multiple Gas procs will not increase the tick damage as Heat does). For this tapfire test, Gas behaved exactly as Toxin does, which is strong evidence for my prediction as to why multishot increases DoT tick damage.

 

But yeah, I wish that I had a beam weapon with precisely 0% crit chance. It would make it way easier to compare expectations/results for having 100+ procs active at once or something...

[Andele3025]

41 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Bit of an info dump there, but the tl;dr is that multishot seems to directly increase the damage of each DoT proc

It doesnt, we were over this before, be it phage or phantasma (vicious spread is useful there for beam wiggle), get damage from 1 beam, then from 2-3 (while keeping eye on amount of procs vs other elements procs), then 8~9, then full multishot converged. Youll notice stacks from heat or toxin or electric dont end up as high as the other elements despite multiple beams because ui merges same tick dots. If you want a easy demonstration of that summon a silver grove specter and keep shooting it with electric or toxin (which should be capped at 1 stack) yet the damage will keep escalating (heat in turn is capped to damage of first proc since they seem to have warframes stacking heat proc damage now/from maybe around 1st xaku deimos patche).

[shut]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

It doesnt, we were over this before

As with our previous pagelong bickering session that got deleted by a moderator-- I literally showed test results verifying this claim of mine. The full methodology is included, and you are free to replicate the test yourself at any time.

Genuinely curious: Do you still think that I'm lying about what my testing showed?

 

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

be it phage or phantasma (vicious spread is useful there for beam wiggle), get damage from 1 beam, then from 2-3 (while keeping eye on amount of procs vs other elements procs), then 8~9, then full multishot converged. Youll notice stacks from heat or toxin or electric dont end up as high as the other elements despite multiple beams because ui merges same tick dots. If you want a easy demonstration of that summon a silver grove specter and keep shooting it with electric or toxin (which should be capped at 1 stack) yet the damage will keep escalating (heat in turn is capped to damage of first proc since they seem to have warframes stacking heat proc damage now/from maybe around 1st xaku deimos patche).

I'm gonna be totally honest with you: I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here.

[taiiat]

11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Damage warmup

yeah, that's probably involved. with Phage i can rule that out since you have to converge first for a consistent test, but Phantasma can't really due to Magazine size.
unable to explain double Damage, though. but it would definitely make some influence.

however one or two Crits is not going to significantly influence the resulting DoT, each Crit would add the equivalent of one more Electric Status being applied.
if Vigilante applied even on let's say, 3 Crits across a Magazine (a preposterously low probability since Phantasma with Multi-Shot expects at most 1 Crit per Magazine, but i'll entertain it to make a point), then that's 66 Electric Status rather than 60. this is not a significant amount of extra Damage, and doesn't even remotely come to explain getting about double the DoT Damage with Multi-Shot.

besides, i didn't shoot at just one Enemy. far from it. i definitely shot at atleast 20, over the course of the testing, and then the restesting in order to gather more data on the first testing.
statistical anomaly from Crits cannot explain this.

 

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It doesnt, we were over this before

k

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

Edit: oh.....
60x Elec Status
base 6x: ~19,500
Multi ~17x(wtf why does the Arsenal say 15? 6*2.8 is definitely atleast 16, sigh w/e): ~38,800

literally all i did was add Multi-Shot Mods. and applied the same number of Status Effects.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-10-05 at 2:42 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re not making any sense. Shotguns that didn’t have 100% status on them sucked because of the way their shots worked. So Phantasma being bad without 100% status proves that the beams were all considered separate beams and procced separately.

Let me explain it in slow, Single beam gun wouldnt have had S#&$ status output with that fire rate and sub 100% status. Brozime thought it was a single beam gun not a shotgun thus didnt hit 100% status to get 12 procs a second/24 per mag out of it but closer to 2~3 which is worse than the 7 he would have had if it werent a shotgun with old status calc. Thus he had to make another video.

This is however unrelated to the fact that before status changes the number of beams hitting a target didnt matter because they all counted as a single beam as far as status was concerned because beam weapons in general were limited PER TARGET to their fire rate worth of procs per second/it didnt matter how much multishot/pellets they had because it was treated as just one tick and one chance for status.
Even more TLDR: Individual beams no proc separately against single target before status changes as they all counted as one beam

9 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I'm gonna be totally honest with you: I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here.

Go in game, be it into a grove or simulacrum, get a grove specter, shoot with phantasma with toxin or electric procs (first a bit, then just go nuts till you damage it to half hp and compare dot damage of that "single" proc). And yes, that will be just one status proc (since toxin and electric stacks have their own timers unlike heat). OH, or even better, GAS, its limited to 10 stacks so it should never breach 3 digit number on phantasma against armored enemy.
Remember frames and specters are supposed to have a cap of only 1 status stack being applicable to them.
If you then dont get whats happening to other targets with beam shotties we will continue.

 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

however one or two Crits is not going to significantly influence the resulting DoT, each Crit would add the equivalent of one more Electric Status being applied.
if Vigilante applied even on let's say, 3 Crits across a Magazine (a preposterously low probability since Phantasma with Multi-Shot expects at most 1 Crit per Magazine, 

Actually vigilante is from 1 crit per 2 beam per magazine (so 3~7 crits depending on multishot) up to 3~ crits per beam per magazine (with full set), adding multishot is more chances for crit chance so with a sentinel vigil stat stick (assuming no headshot or weakspot multis) get around a 30% damage increase (or or in case of chest to head aim from wiggles and headcrits, 97% excluding non-crit headshot multi on its own). A spread phage easily shows that one beam can crit while another one doesnt (and a focused one equally can have a

Quote

but i'll entertain it to make a point), then that's 66 Electric Status rather than 60. this is not a significant amount of extra Damage, and doesn't even remotely come to explain getting about double the DoT Damage with Multi-Shot.

Actually it would be closer to 65~68 going up to 103~150 for those procs (bit more less depending on other status mods and what also comes in). While not fully explaining pure 2x+ damage, it does a portion of it.

Quote

literally all i did was add Multi-Shot Mods. and applied the same number of Status Effects.

The thing prior about frames/specters also might apply if you didnt control for number of beams hitting (in addition to all the other little factors) aka game would have said it wasnt the same status count.

 

 

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually vigilante is from 1 crit per 2 beam per magazine (so 3~7 crits depending on multishot) up to 3~ crits per beam per magazine

okay fine, i'll actually run the numbers.

going from expecting 2 per Magazine to 5 per Magazine. if we assumed that Vigilante was active for every single Crit (again, this is mathematically preposterous to be true across dozens of Enemies at a 5% rate), then that is 64 rather than 60 Electric Status and 70 rather than 60 electric Status. 16.7% Damage is not 100% Damage.

and no, i'm not going to be an airhead and add full Vigilante Set and add Avenger to try and get as many Crits as possible. the most consistent Crit results for these purposes is minimum Crits, because it's already inconsequentially low as to be entirely ruled out from being the cause of anything in the results.
the goal is to reduce variables, not add them.

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

if you didnt control for number of beams hitting (in addition to all the other little factors) aka game would have said it wasnt the same status count.

ah yes, i didn't control the Weapon, which has zero Recoil like forces, shoots perfectly straight forward, and was dumping straight into an Enemy from a couple Meters away.

but ofcourse, the obvious explanation is that a linear Weapon was not consistently hitting the Enemy.

 

 

and no, you can't tell me that across dozens of Enemies having a 75.5% Status Chance meant that with/without Multi-Shot something different was happening when i removed that variable by NORMALIZING EVERYTHING TO THE SAME NUMBER OF STATUS EFFECTS.

go troll someone else.

[Andele3025]

37 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and no, you can't tell me that across dozens of Enemies having a 75.5% Status Chance meant that with/without Multi-Shot something different was happening when i removed that variable by NORMALIZING EVERYTHING TO THE SAME NUMBER OF STATUS EFFECTS.

Ignoring that you seem to not know that vigilante can cause non-crits to become crits, the beams wiggle over 60% of the un-aimed crosshair and yes, if you hit with more beams in one test than another causing the statuses merged from same tick application you didnt control for all the factors nor normalize.

[taiiat]

8 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Ignoring that you seem to not know that vigilante can cause non-crits to become crits

the beams wiggle over 60% of the un-aimed crosshair and yes, if you hit with more beams in one test than another causing the statuses merged from same tick application you didnt control for all the factors nor normalize.

that's literally not how Vigilante Set works.

nothing was missing in either case because it was point blank into an Enemy. stop making things up.

[shut]

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Go in game, be it into a grove or simulacrum, get a grove specter, shoot with phantasma with toxin or electric procs (first a bit, then just go nuts till you damage it to half hp and compare dot damage of that "single" proc). And yes, that will be just one status proc (since toxin and electric stacks have their own timers unlike heat).

This is an excellent demonstration of procs stacking infinitely versus Warframes, but I don't see how this is relevant to (let alone evidence against) my "Multishot increases DoT damage per proc" claim in any way. I was literally still able to verify my above test (i.e. tapfire vs Tech, with and without multishot) on the Feyarch specters 😂

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

OH, or even better, GAS, its limited to 10 stacks so it should never breach 3 digit number on phantasma against armored enemy.
Remember frames and specters are supposed to have a cap of only 1 status stack being applicable to them.
If you then dont get whats happening to other targets with beam shotties we will continue.

Oooh, using Gas is a great idea, thanks!

• I tested it on the Feyarch specter and saw that its tick damage stacks infinitely versus Warframes. Which is hilarious, but still unrelated to my claim.
• I replicated my tapfire-vs-Tech test (and did a continuous fire version as well, which Gas works nicely for since it only has 1 active DoT at a time, and tick damage doesn't increase with additional stacks). The result: Multishot still increases the DoT damage per tick, even if it's gas. This is strong evidence of the "Multishot increases DoT damage per proc" claim, along with my earlier prediction as to why this happens.

Considering how you still think that multishot doesn't increase DoT damage per proc, despite multiple people showing direct evidence to the contrary... I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. 

[kwlingo]

Yes they are very powerful. Ive been running Synapse with Primed Shred giving a Punch Through AOE. Just been loving non-Meta weapons lately.

[Andele3025]

52 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's literally not how Vigilante Set works.

Edit: Apparently it got fixed so, sadly true it no longer gives effective crit. Did till Exploiter at least tho (since you could make scourge keep getting a crit every other shot with MS).

[Andele3025]

26 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

This is an excellent demonstration of procs stacking infinitely versus Warframes,

Except its not infinite stacking and warframes are capped to having 1 stack of a effect on them as is easily proven by the effects of non-damage status effects (and now heat too since to my surprise it got fixed despite UI derping). Not to mention that non-heat sacks have independent duration which would run out which would mean once you stop firing the dots would start to go back down in damage.
It merges them if they occur within the same game engine/game calculation tick, Something you can do even with non-beam guns and a selective bug that has been reported ages ago that by now everyone should know off.

Im amazed how you and the other dude can keep ignoring actual mechanics to then make claims that are as easily debunked as shooting a single beam of the phage against a target giving same results no matter the extra multishot you add.

[shut]

 

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except its not infinite stacking and warframes are capped to having 1 stack of a effect on them as is easily proven by the effects of non-damage status effects (and now heat too since to my surprise it got fixed despite UI derping). Not to mention that non-heat sacks have independent duration which would run out which would mean once you stop firing the dots would start to go back down in damage.
It merges them if they occur within the same game engine/game calculation tick, Something you can do even with non-beam guns and a selective bug that has been reported ages ago that by now everyone should know off.

So it has no relation to the "multishot directly increases DoT damage per proc" claim, then. Gotcha.

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Im amazed how you and the other dude can keep ignoring actual mechanics to then make claims that are as easily debunked as shooting a single beam of the phage against a target giving same results no matter the extra multishot you add.

We've been through this (in the page that got deleted). Phage's added beams from +multishot don't overlap. When you're shooting with "a single beam of the phage" and get the same results regardless of multishot, it's because you're literally hitting with one (1) (uno) beam no matter how much multishot you add.

Your Phage could have 100 beams, but if 99 of them miss, then of course it's going to behave as if a single beam is dealing damage. Because that's quite literally what's happening.