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So can we talk about the glory that is the new Phage and Phantasma?


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6 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

We've been through this (in the page that got deleted). Phage's added beams from +multishot don't overlap. When you're shooting with "a single beam of the phage" and get the same results regardless of multishot, it's because you're literally hitting with one (1) (uno) beam no matter how much multishot you add.

Your Phage could have 100 beams, but if 99 of them miss, then of course it's going to behave as if a single beam is dealing damage. Because that's quite literally what's happening.

So what you're saying is, you're accepting multishot doesnt double dip because if it did add damage it would buff the damage dots would do of each beam, not just under the same condition that makes game merge dots (why you also get less status numbers than expected post distribution on beam shotties).

Edited by Andele3025
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22 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

So what you're saying is, you're accepting multishot doesnt double dip because if it did add damage it would buff the damage dots would do of each beam, not just under the same condition that makes game merge dots (why you also get less status numbers than expected post distribution on beam shotties).

Multishot doesn't influence the behaviour of each individual beam. You get bigger DoT numbers when more beams touch, and Multishot simply spawns more beams.

The "double dipping" comes from the fact that:

  • Multiple beams hitting at once increases DoT damage accordingly.
  • Multiple beams hitting at once increases Status Chance accordingly; e.g. a Kuva Nukor with exactly 2.0 multishot will have precisely a 100% Status Chance assuming both beams hit.
    (And when I say precisely, I mean precisely. Each tick of damage will proc exactly once. You will never proc zero times, and you will never proc 2+ times.)

 

EDIT: LOOOOOL He actually ignored this post and is continuing to argue as if I didn't explain this

Edited by SortaRandom
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7 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

not just under the same condition that makes game merge dots

60 Status Effects

60 Status Effects with ~3x as many Projectiles

 

now, either explain to everyone how there is no difference there, and how you get the same Damage even though very clearly one does not, and how the merging of Damage Numbers is in any way relevant when the same number of DoT's are applied in any scenario... plus don't sound like you're higher than a kite doing it, or just accept that this conversation is over.

Edited by taiiat
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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

60 Status Effects

60 Status Effects with ~3x as many Projectiles

 

now, either explain to everyone how there is no difference there, and how you get the same Damage even though very clearly one does not, and how the merging of Damage Numbers is in any way relevant when the same number of DoT's are applied in any scenario... plus don't sound like you're higher than a kite doing it, or just accept that this conversation is over.

>given knowledge of ui merging dots
>dot number under hood demonstrably not the same since it doesnt align with fire rate by multishot based on status chance and % type
>clearly totally unrelated (according to you people), in no way relevant combined with your prior admission to not actually ending the measurement at the same point because UI value same thus must be true

Ok, feel free to believe that the earth is flat and moon fake. Just stop responding to me.
 

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On 2020-10-07 at 2:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

>given knowledge of ui merging dots

Literally already accounted for in both of our tests.

On 2020-10-07 at 2:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

>dot number under hood demonstrably not the same

Literally the point we're trying to make. Multishot demonstrably increases dot damage per proc.

On 2020-10-07 at 2:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

>clearly totally unrelated (according to you people), in no way relevant combined with your prior admission to not actually ending the measurement at the same point because UI value same thus must be true

Literally unintelligible.
Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

On 2020-10-07 at 2:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

Ok, feel free to believe that the earth is flat and moon fake. Just stop responding to me.

Ad hominems feed my soul 😌👌

Also, the irony of you accusing us of ignoring evidence is delicious. You know, considering that @taiiat and I have been the only ones providing evidence in this conversation (with easy-to-replicate testing methodologies and everything), and you've been consistently ignoring it. Like, page 2 literally has multiple instances where I displayed clear evidence of my claims, and asked you for your opinion on the evidence-- and you simply avoided responding to it, while steering the topic to something less related.

^ EDIT: And, like clockwork, he avoids addressing this once again 😌👌

Buuuuut... ah well. I've already asked you (probably at least 5 times) to replicate my easy tests yourself if my claims are so hard to believe. And here we are, one new page later, where it's clearer than ever that this conversation will never go anywhere.

Imma call it quits. Cheers.

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37 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Also, the irony of you accusing us of ignoring evidence is delicious. You know, considering that [snip] and I have been the only ones providing evidence in this conversation (with easy-to-replicate testing methodologies and everything), and you've been consistently ignoring it.

(i was even very skeptical myself, and figured there were other attributes at work instead but a plain face test with no significant Variables to cloud the result was pretty clear - i have also since replicated with a single beam Weapon, weird that when i tried it with Convectrix it didn't seem to do much of anything, must've been a fluke there)

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1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Literally already accounted for in both of our tests.

Literally the point we're trying to make. Multishot demonstrably increases dot damage per proc.

Literally unintelligible.
Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

You didnt, you didnt and it doesnt.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Ad hominems feed my soul 

Nice projecting.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Also, the irony of you accusing us of ignoring evidence is delicious. You know, considering that @taiiat and I have been the only ones providing evidence in this conversation (with easy-to-replicate testing methodologies and everything), and you've been consistently ignoring it. Like, page 2 literally has multiple instances where I displayed clear evidence of my claims, and asked you for your opinion on the evidence-- and you simply avoided responding to it, while steering the topic to something less related.

Buuuuut... ah well. I've already asked you (probably at least 5 times) to replicate my braindead-easy tests yourself if my claims are so hard to believe, but that ended up getting a page of this thread removed. And here we are, one new page later, where it's clearer than ever that this conversation will never go anywhere.

Imma call it quits. Cheers.

No, both of you are just spamming the same S#&$ of "muh more dumshhh" without any control for variables.
Simplest proof that multishot doesnt influence the effect of any beam is to take a phage, hit a enemy with a single tendril and then slap on as much multishot as you like. The results dont change.
You ignoring the game merging ticks (which isnt a form of double dipping as the ticks still have to happen for them to be merged) is the actual irony and your inabilities to disprove the 2 points is the really telling part.

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About the Phage, adding multishot ...

- per beam, doesn't increase tick damage, nor average total damage dealt with a full clip
- per beam, doesn't increase status DoT tick damage
- doesn't increase the number of visible beams beyond 13 regardless of number displayed in arsenal UI, which can be >13
- BUT, when all beams hit the same target (not necessarily fully focused), ms DOES accordingly increase total damage dealt with a full clip, including at ms values >13.

I've verified all these myself very thoroughly, and it begs the following question:
 
- how increasing multishot value beyond 13 can in turn increase the cumulative damage of all beams, when it doesn't increase individual beam damage, AND total number of beams is limited to 13?

If each (some?) beam could actually become multiple superimposed beams looking like a single one, then increasing multishot would increase its damage (more beams looking like one, more damage). But it doesn't.

I'm perplexed.

______________________

Also adding multishot gives seemingly incorrect values in the arsenal:
For a clear example, +100% (r4 hell's chamber) gives a total ms value of 13 instead of 14 (from base 7). That's about a 7% difference.
That difference reaches and even exceeds 10% at what should be 30 multishot (so instead 27%), with both ms mods + riven.
This may have to do with the fact that multishot doesn't seem to multiply the central beam, as it should, but instead strongly veers its orientation diagonally (which is quite annoying and a very old issue, never fixed). The arsenal ms numbers might in fact be accurate, but the effect of ms mods on the tentacles is bugged.

Lastly, hit detection per beam can be extremely wonky: often, beams that should hit the target, and visually do, just punch through it with no effect whatsoever unless they hit specific small areas, at specific angle and distance. This isn't obvious when the target moves and is affected by status procs such as heat's "panic" etc, but is easily verifiable with a single beam vs a stationary target (like in simulacrum) and only viral for example. It seems to be exacerbated by sinister reach.

Edited by Robolaser
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8 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

I've verified all these myself very thoroughly, and it begs the following question:

 
- how increasing multishot value beyond 13 can in turn increase the cumulative damage of all beams, when it doesn't increase individual beam damage, AND total number of beams is limited to 13?

If each (some?) beam could actually become multiple superimposed beams looking like a single one, then increasing multishot would increase its damage (more beams looking like one, more damage). But it doesn't.

I'm perplexed.

Do the thing i suggested prior of using any beam shotgun on a specter with gas (or electric or toxin) for answer of what you're seeing (or just compare what the on paper status output should be of the gun with all beams vs what ui displays in game).

8 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

______________________

Also adding multishot gives seemingly incorrect values in the arsenal:

Nah, All of them have 1 hitcheck """beam""" which isnt accounted for, so phage use base value of 6 for multishot, for phantasma 5 then add +1.

8 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Lastly, hit detection per beam can be extremely wonky: often, beams that should hit the target, and visually do, just punch through it with no effect whatsoever unless they hit specific small areas, at specific angle and distance.

Beam alignment of the phage is broken after you reload it once and (sometimes, rarely) it breaks if the mission decides to do so if it has over 100% multishot. Both have (SADLY) done so for ages.

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Il y a 1 heure, Andele3025 a dit :

Do the thing i suggested prior of using any beam shotgun on a specter with gas (or electric or toxin) for answer of what you're seeing (or just compare what the on paper status output should be of the gun with all beams vs what ui displays in game).

I forgot to mention i did some of these tests with viral only (instead of viral+heat), vs various regular enemies, and with identical results. That is, adding ms above 13 increases damage in the same proportions with all beams over a full clip, despite not adding damage to individual, limited beams. Viral caps at 10 in less than a sec, used alone it removes damaging procs complexity and randomness out of the equation. Logically, i believe these tests would have yielded the same results without any status procs at all. So i don't see, a priori, how electric/tox/gas DoT procs vs a Specter could help me understand better. Still, i'll try what you suggested when i can. I'm intrigued :)

 

Il y a 1 heure, Andele3025 a dit :

Nah, All of them have 1 hitcheck """beam""" which isnt accounted for, so phage use base value of 6 for multishot, for phantasma 5 then add +1.

Interesting. It seems to be calculated this way indeed [modded ms value in arsenal = ((base ms value -1)*(1+mod bonuses))+1]. But, all 7 Phage's beams are functional, they deal damage/proc status, so i think they should all benefit from ms mods. Anyway thanks for the explanation!

Edited by Robolaser
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