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Hi, this is probably the 100th post about Frost, but theres a reason, he NEEDS a rework immediatly. Here's why, i'll try to make this organized... Keep in mind that all the stats below are related to the Prime variant.

 

  • Low Energy Pool

Frost right now has a pool of 150, 425 with Primed Flow. And to make it somehow enjoyable you'll need a lot of energy, also, to make it strong and capable of remove armor, you'll need to put all 3 Umbral mods, or kill your efficiency, making it cost 155 energy per cast.

 

  • Snow Globe is bad

Snow globe build, one of the most common builds for him, is just insanely bad, even with the augment mod, you need a ton of armor/health and power strenght to make it at least durable in normal missions, but Steel Path or Arbitrations, forget it. Comparing with other warframes that has a "defensive globe" skill, like Limbo for example, make frost look terrible.

 

  • Avalanche can remove armor, but at a very high cost

Did you know that Frost can remove armor ? But it requires at least 250% power strenght to do that, plus it only removes the armor of the enemies that are frozen based on duration mods, thus making it horrible to build around, because you need lots of duration, strenght and also range, and guess what happens to your efficiency and 425 energy ? Yeah...

 

Based on these three topics, here's what i suggest for a future Frost rework, first of all, please... Give him more energy. Second, increase both the freeze duration and initial armor removal from Avalanche. Third, get rid of snow globe because that skill just flat out sucks, or make it viable in mid game content. 

 

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Funny thing is, when I saw the thread title, those were the exact opposite of the issues I expected to see taken with him – that his best abilities aren't good enough.

Like, how do you discuss Snow Globe not absorbing enough damage but ignore that Freeze and Ice Wave deal practically none? How do you discuss his ultimate not peeling enough armor when it's already miles better than Freeze or Ice Wave even without that?

I agree Frost has issues, but I think we need to examine the priorities for them.

Edited by Archwizard
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32 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I agree Frost has issues, but I think we need to examine the priorities for them.

Like his joke-tier passive?

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4 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Funny thing is, when I saw the thread title, those were the exact opposite of the issues I expected to see taken with him – that his best abilities aren't good enough.

Like, how do you discuss Snow Globe not absorbing enough damage but ignore that Freeze and Ice Wave deal practically none? How do you discuss his ultimate not peeling enough armor when it's already miles better than Freeze or Ice Wave even without that?

I agree Frost has issues, but I think we need to examine the priorities for them.

All of his kit need a revamp, some more than others for sure. But like you said, they aren't good enough.

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There's a reason I make my Frost pale yellow. Mechanically, more specifically animation wise, there is nothing wrong with Frost except the numbers and behavior of his abilities and stats. However, Freeze and Ice Wave are almost mechanically identical (Freeze in a spot vs. slow in a cone), Gara's Mass Vitrify is a literally better version of Snow Globe in absolutely every regard, and Avalanche is such an underwhelming ability that I'm shocked it hasn't been patched into oblivion.

Passive: Should be a better version of Coolant Leak. Like, even 5m would be fine, if we're doing a "He's a melee tank" rework.

Roll Ice Wave and Freeze together, give him a new 2 that's a radial knockback and slow.

Snow Globe has no justifiable reason to block ally shots. At all. 

Avalanche is mechanically boring, and does so little damage past level 30. The armor strip is so fast that it might as well not be there. I would love to have Blizzard (AOE freeze bombs) or Hoarfrost (A creeping fog that slows enemies, reduces armor, and reduces enemy accuracy)

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9 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

There's a reason I make my Frost pale yellow. Mechanically, more specifically animation wise, there is nothing wrong with Frost except the numbers and behavior of his abilities and stats. However, Freeze and Ice Wave are almost mechanically identical (Freeze in a spot vs. slow in a cone), Gara's Mass Vitrify is a literally better version of Snow Globe in absolutely every regard, and Avalanche is such an underwhelming ability that I'm shocked it hasn't been patched into oblivion.

Passive: Should be a better version of Coolant Leak. Like, even 5m would be fine, if we're doing a "He's a melee tank" rework.

Roll Ice Wave and Freeze together, give him a new 2 that's a radial knockback and slow.

Snow Globe has no justifiable reason to block ally shots. At all. 

Avalanche is mechanically boring, and does so little damage past level 30. The armor strip is so fast that it might as well not be there. I would love to have Blizzard (AOE freeze bombs) or Hoarfrost (A creeping fog that slows enemies, reduces armor, and reduces enemy accuracy)

Thats some really good suggestions ! And i agree when you said that the armor strip is barely noticiable, that should'nt even be a thing. I also like to suggest that they tweak how cold proc works, it can still slow enemies down, but after a few stacks, COMPLETELY frozen the enemy for a few seconds.

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25 minutes ago, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:

Thats some really good suggestions ! And i agree when you said that the armor strip is barely noticiable, that should'nt even be a thing. I also like to suggest that they tweak how cold proc works, it can still slow enemies down, but after a few stacks, COMPLETELY frozen the enemy for a few seconds.

Status in general needs a fresh look. Yeah I know we had one this year already, but damage is just stupid these days. We have three types of physical, four basic elements, six combo elements, and now void damage, not to mention the other "secret" statuses like Lifted and Microwaved. Then there's subcategories like "Kinetic," which I think only Gauss interacts with. Like, even DnD limits its damage types. You have IPS (or rather BPS, in that game), fire, acid (or corrosive, depending on the edition), cold, electricity, force, holy, and profane. We have four defense profiles in Warframe, with three layers of defense. I mean, half the point of a video game is to do more complicated things than tabletop games, but that doesn't change the fact that there's still a human (or many) designing these effects. If you really break it down, WF is still just a bunch of die rolls veiled behind a TPS. And what makes more sense: rolling 3d8 or 100d2?

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As far as Frost goes, the best addition I can think of aside from what's been mentioned is a small UI update for his Globe's current HP, which I'm pretty sure only shows you a total percentage of max health remaining.

I think it would be more informative if it showed you the actual amount of HP the globe has on the bottom right (Similar to how some frames have their own UI effects, like Saryn's Spores, Gauss' Battery gauge, and so on!).

  • That being said, if that change was made, the HP gauge for your current globe should grey out during the damage-absorption phase (Where it increases it's HP based on the damage taken), and if you place globes in different areas, perhaps you could see a transparent version of that HP gauge in the center of whichever globe you look at from a distance!

 

His globe is quite useful compared to many other kinds of abilities throughout the game, so in the event of a rework, I think it could stay (But also be made to allow allies to shoot through it). In any case, I hope this suggestion helps :]

Edited by (NSW)Gamer-Steve
I saw a typo.
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Frost is an amazing frame if you do the math, and Umbra forma him, while using an arcane squall.

You can full strip with a nidus specter + growing power making the power investment much lower, or if you do not play solo have a friend play something that pushes you into full strip territory your globe becomes tough as nails when stacked and you have enough eff to spam away, while becoming a tanking monster when not in the globe. Then for extra goodness add pillage from the helminth for any mission that is not infested. and for infested add your choice of a few other helminth abilities. He is completely solid. There is a reason I own more then one frost prime although now days I play my umbral forma'd one most the time, and laugh at people saying he can't solo tank, and destroy steel path with ease. 

For the record 175 str + growing power + nidus specter(link) = full armour strip. I would rather they leave my heavily invested frozen god frame alone.

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I will concede that, considering he is a caster frame, he has a pretty low energy pool. It should be the same as Ember. He already has a reduced movement speed. The only thing he has going for him is high shields and armor.

I don't agree that Snow Globe is terrible, though it could do with a QoL improvement (how about we just let people shoot through it regardless if they're inside or outside), and I would like to see a mobility augment for it (if for no reason than so he can do the frost eximus thing).

As for Avalanche, honestly the armor striping, while okay, feels like it was just a bandaid buff. I mostly use it for high duration freezing CC. And Ice Wave I have an entire build for, just cause the slow effect is very useful in certain situations. And then Freeze...uh...yeah, I don't really use this ability. It just kind of exists. I wish they would replace it with a mobility ability and move Ice Wave to the 1 slot.

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Make his 2 somewhat relevant, and he'll be fine.  He's still incredibly valuable for normal play.  It's not impossible to get full armor strip and a decent snowglobe on the same build, even without umbra forma.

 

Ideas for his 2:

  • forced status procs of cold and IPS, with the amount of procs and their strength dependent on ability strength
  • return energy per target hit
  • heal snowglobe health, or increase it somewhat
  • deal % based damage to already frozen targets
Edited by sunderthefirmament
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On 2020-10-02 at 7:06 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

Make his 2 somewhat relevant, and he'll be fine.  He's still incredibly valuable for normal play.  It's not impossible to get full armor strip and a decent snowglobe on the same build, even without umbra forma.

 

Ideas for his 2:

  • forced status procs of cold and IPS, with the amount of procs and their strength dependent on ability strength
  • return energy per target hit
  • heal snowglobe health, or increase it somewhat
  • deal % based damage to already frozen targets

Frankly I think his first two abilities at the very least need a total revamp, if not his entire kit. Ice Wave is easily the worst offender since contributes nothing to his kit, but Freeze also has no purpose as long as his ultimate can do a better version of what it does in every possible way, save for smashing Globes.

"But you can't compare his 1 to an ultimate!" Well for four times the cost, the ultimate in question has: unlimited targeting within a much wider radius, more reliable CC due to not having a damage cap, 4.29x the base damage per-target, armor peel and the ability to make targets explode on death for additional damage (which would be affected by said armor peel). You could cast Freeze 4 times for the same cost, but all you'd get is consecutive lock time on one target. Between the two abilities you have one that's Frost's main CC tool and one that's Frost's main damage tool, and both of those tools are Avalanche.

But back to Ice Wave specifically:

I would have said Ice Wave should have a knockback... before Snow Globe ended up having that integrated into it anyway. You can also heal and increase the health of Snow Globe just by recasting it, and deal %-based damage if you can throw enemies into walls with it.
Having it inflict Stun or Weaken procs could be a useful synergy with Globe, I suppose, but since his kit has a significant amount of CC already that just feels like a ribbon on it, as does the energy return. Not to mention that while everyone loves a good Bleed, we run into the same issue Ash has with Seeking Shuriken: What's the point of stripping armor when your damage ignores it anyway?

On the other hand... 

What if Ice Wave inflicted Cold and IPS... but by creating a persistent patch on the ground? The icicles form and just don't go away, forming an obstacle to enemies approaching your Globe? Then if you Avalanche enemies inside the field, they can take periodic damage and accumulate additional procs.

I'd still have to say they need to change Freeze (at least so it can compare to Avalanche in terms of cost-efficiency or doesn't compete for the function, even if that could mean nerfing Avalanche in some aspect as long as Freeze is raised to a viable level), but that could be a start for Ice Wave to have some actual synergy.

Edited by Archwizard
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I will always show love to Tenno that like myself have pushed for frost love for the past five years.

I have seen so many rework idea's, buffs to current set and minimal change effort ideas that i dare not dream anymore. He remains my favorite frame but he longer gets use from myself often as i don't find his kit useful as all compared to others that do it 1000x better.

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On 2020-10-03 at 6:50 PM, Archwizard said:

Frankly I think his first two abilities at the very least need a total revamp, if not his entire kit. Ice Wave is easily the worst offender since contributes nothing to his kit, but Freeze also has no purpose as long as his ultimate can do a better version of what it does in every possible way, save for smashing Globes.

"But you can't compare his 1 to an ultimate!" Well for four times the cost, the ultimate in question has: unlimited targeting within a much wider radius, more reliable CC due to not having a damage cap, 4.29x the base damage per-target, armor peel and the ability to make targets explode on death for additional damage (which would be affected by said armor peel). You could cast Freeze 4 times for the same cost, but all you'd get is consecutive lock time on one target. Between the two abilities you have one that's Frost's main CC tool and one that's Frost's main damage tool, and both of those tools are Avalanche.

[...]

I'd still have to say they need to change Freeze (at least so it can compare to Avalanche in terms of cost-efficiency or doesn't compete for the function, even if that could mean nerfing Avalanche in some aspect as long as Freeze is raised to a viable level), but that could be a start for Ice Wave to have some actual synergy.

I had another thought on this late last night:

We've all seen the suggestion for Frost to deal more damage to Frozen targets with some ability. Usually it's Ice Wave, but why not have Freeze be that skill instead?

Instead of tossing a freezing dart or a pointy snowball or whatever, have it throw an actual Icicle with some Punch Through; charge the skill to fire a fan of Icicles (unless you have the augment). If it hits a target who isn't frozen, it will freeze them as normal. If it hits a target who is frozen, it extends the freeze by a flat amount (no more Current %-cap) and attempts to Shatter the enemy for bonus damage, as it does with Snow Globe.
How it calculates that damage bonus is open to interpretation. I'm a fan of it dealing the radial explosion that occurs when targets die while Avalanche is active. Could also be some %-health or level-based damage instead; as long as it isn't True damage, since that would reduce synergy with Avalanche's armor reduction.

Then you just add a passive that either doubles the potency of Cold procs (so enemies can actually be frozen just by Frost applying enough, allowing him to repeatedly freeze enemies) OR go the Ember route and have him gain Armor for each Cold procced target, to empower Snow Globe.

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44 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Then you just add a passive that either doubles the potency of Cold procs (so enemies can actually be frozen just by Frost applying enough, allowing him to repeatedly freeze enemies) OR go the Ember route and have him gain Armor for each Cold procced target, to empower Snow Globe.

That's a decent idea, Armor (Provided you have enough) is / can be stronger against most enemies than higher-than-otherwise shields are (Although I think it'd be great if at least some of your Armor benefitted shields).

If it helps, I could share a build that has this in mind for Frost Prime.

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On 2020-10-01 at 8:38 AM, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:

Hi, this is probably the 100th post about Frost, but theres a reason, he NEEDS a rework immediatly. Here's why, i'll try to make this organized... Keep in mind that all the stats below are related to the Prime variant.

 

  • Low Energy Pool

Frost right now has a pool of 150, 425 with Primed Flow. And to make it somehow enjoyable you'll need a lot of energy, also, to make it strong and capable of remove armor, you'll need to put all 3 Umbral mods, or kill your efficiency, making it cost 155 energy per cast. 

Frost doesnt need high energy pool if it use effiency mods. Plus we can use thosekind weapons too which bring energy too...

My frost use effiency mods + weapons which brings energy and i dont have issue with.my energy pool. 

On 2020-10-01 at 8:38 AM, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:

 

  • Snow Globe is bad

Snow globe build, one of the most common builds for him, is just insanely bad, even with the augment mod, you need a ton of armor/health and power strenght to make it at least durable in normal missions, but Steel Path or Arbitrations, forget it. Comparing with other warframes that has a "defensive globe" skill, like Limbo for example, make frost look terrible.

Snow globe is powerful in defence missions and it give nice cover. We can make even 200 snow globe in one place if we wanted, because they stack.

On 2020-10-01 at 8:38 AM, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:

 

  • Avalanche can remove armor, but at a very high cost

Did you know that Frost can remove armor ? But it requires at least 250% power strenght to do that, plus it only removes the armor of the enemies that are frozen based on duration mods, thus making it horrible to build around, because you need lots of duration, strenght and also range, and guess what happens to your efficiency and 425 energy ? Yeah...

 

Based on these three topics, here's what i suggest for a future Frost rework, first of all, please... Give him more energy. Second, increase both the freeze duration and initial armor removal from Avalanche. Third, get rid of snow globe because that skill just flat out sucks, or make it viable in mid game content. 

 

So long as enemies frozen they lose armors.

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On 2020-10-03 at 8:50 PM, Archwizard said:

 

I'd still have to say they need to change Freeze (at least so it can compare to Avalanche in terms of cost-efficiency or doesn't compete for the function, even if that could mean nerfing Avalanche in some aspect as long as Freeze is raised to a viable level), but that could be a start for Ice Wave to have some actual synergy.

I've been hesitant to ask for a rework on his 1 because it is useful for popping the 3, if nothing else.  But maybe skill synergy is the key to making the 1 and the 2 better.  Maybe Frost's 1 could do massively increased damage to targets slowed by his 2 or trigger other effects.  Just a thought.

 

His 1 is dated, though.  It's like a lot of older frames' 1 in the way that it is, in essence, a far weaker 4.  Compare it to Wisp's 1, or even Garuda's, to see how the thought process behind frame abilities has changed over time.

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1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I've been hesitant to ask for a rework on his 1 because it is useful for popping the 3, if nothing else.  But maybe skill synergy is the key to making the 1 and the 2 better.  Maybe Frost's 1 could do massively increased damage to targets slowed by his 2 or trigger other effects.  Just a thought.

His 1 is dated, though.  It's like a lot of older frames' 1 in the way that it is, in essence, a far weaker 4.  Compare it to Wisp's 1, or even Garuda's, to see how the thought process behind frame abilities has changed over time.

My general thought process around the older frames' designs -- specifically those with multiple damage-oriented skills, generally in the 1 and 4 slots -- is that their Ultimate ability should be considered for dealing with large groups of enemies, but their First should be wildly more efficient for dealing with smaller crowds or single higher-level enemies.

For instance: for Ember, I think Fireball should deal %-health damage to targets it hits, and Inferno should not. Inferno already has the bonus of forming damage rings around each enemy struck. Inferno also does 6.25x the damage per target before the ring, scales its cost to the number of enemies, and has its damage affected by Immolation, so there's no reason to ever use Fireball even against a single target. If Fireball scaled off the target's health however, it would be more useful on single enemies without overshadowing Inferno as a snap AoE tool. Same issue presents with Ash, Shuriken is weaker and less cost-efficient than Bladestorm which is used for the same general purpose, so that either needs to change or one of them needs to be reworked as not to waste a slot.
We can see the aforementioned philosophy already used for frames like Oberon, Atlas, Khora, Gara, Garuda, Nidus, Inaros, Hildryn...

Same philosophy can be applied here to Frost. If Avalanche is the AoE skill for his kit both in terms of CC and output, his 1 should be more efficient for fewer but higher-level enemies, either by scaling its damage off their level, by ignoring some element of their rising defenses, or by scaling off of external damage output like weapon multipliers or damage absorbed from enemies. Give Freeze both the power to freeze targets and the ability to exploit frozen targets for significant damage.

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The point's raised... just... :facepalm: I'm almost 4k hours in and he's still my favorite and most used frame. Feel free to /profile me.
 

On 2020-10-01 at 1:38 AM, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:
  • Snow Globe is bad

Snow globe build, one of the most common builds for him, is just insanely bad, even with the augment mod, you need a ton of armor/health and power strenght to make it at least durable in normal missions, but Steel Path or Arbitrations, forget it. Comparing with other warframes that has a "defensive globe" skill, like Limbo for example, make frost look terrible.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Frost functions. The Snowglobe Camp build is bad, because sitting inside of it is giving up versatility of CC and damage. Snowglobe as an ability is great. As someone above pointed out, you can also stack them, continuously, and it also absorbs incoming damage like Ironskin. And they're invulnerable for the first few seconds while they absorb damage into their health pool. There is no need to build for armor or power strength. Also, Frost's health has no effect on it.  

I have been saying this for actual years. This is not a defensive ability. This is a weapon and area denial. Ally downed? Send everything around them flying. Defensive objective swamped? Not anymore it isn't. Want some scaling damage? Send enemies into walls/ the floor/ each other/ off a cliff. It combo's very nicely with Exodia Hunt/ Magus Anomaly/ Ferrox/ Ensnare/ Larva etc and explodes in a radial knockback when you shoot it with his 1. Can you camp it like a bum and still get things done? Yes. It it a lot more fun to use it in an active and engaging play style to control an area along with his 4 and kill enemies with it? Also yes. The only change it needs is not blocking allies shots, as that's just annoying.
 

On 2020-10-01 at 1:38 AM, (PS4)lhp_marcos said:
  • Avalanche can remove armor, but at a very high cost

Did you know that Frost can remove armor ? But it requires at least 250% power strenght to do that, plus it only removes the armor of the enemies that are frozen based on duration mods, thus making it horrible to build around, because you need lots of duration, strenght and also range, and guess what happens to your efficiency and 425 energy ? Yeah...

 Okay... where to start. First off, duration has no effect on the removal of armor, only on how long the frozen state lasts. The armor reduction kicks in after the first part of the cast animation, after Frost raises his hand. The armor reduction persists for the entirety of the duration of Avalanche. A duration which you can refresh by simply recasting it. I've got 105% duration, that makes Avalanche freeze enemies for 8.4 seconds. I've got 108% strength, that cuts their armor by 43%, nearly in half. With 235% range, every enemy within 35m is frozen in place for 8 seconds, with half their armor gone. That is plenty of time to kill anything. It shuts down the entire room, doing a far better job as a defensive ability than his 3. On top of that, we can proc status effects through it. It's a common misconception that you can't, but that was changed a while back. Just like it's a common misconception that stripping 100% of an enemies armor is good. Leaving them with a bit of armor preserves the damage bonuses from combined elements. Add in Exodia Hunt/ Magus Anomaly/ Ferrox/ Ensnare/ Larva you can pull all of those immobile enemies into one place and destroy them with a CO melee, with a charge attack melee, with a gun with punch through, with a cast of 3 literally anything you want. And the enemies can't do anything to stop you. Did the effect wear off before they're all dead? Just hit 4 again. His 4 is not a nuke, it's an infinitely scaling CC set up. Will nuke like a brain dead Saryn or Mesa at low levels? Yes. Does it lose any viability as levels go up? Absolutely not, Doesn't matter if an enemy is level 120 or 6000, it's still gonna stop them in their tracks.

As for the rest of his kit...

Passive - Trash. The worst thing about him. It almost never triggers, and requires you to get hit to trigger a chance of it going off. You shouldn't be getting hit if you're using him right. At all. A slightly stronger version of the sentinel mod Coolant Leak would be better. Actually, just having Coolant Leak on your sentinel period is better than his passive.

1 - It's a one-handed ability, it's cheap to cast. Trigger Brief Respite and Augur mods with it. Cover reloads with it. Catch the last few enemies that are alive when his 4 wears off with it. It's a 1 and Frost is an older frame, it's not going to be Spore or Whipclaw, and it doesn't need to be. It also has a nice AoE knockback interaction with his 3.

2 - Helminth fodder. The only other bad thing about him besides his passive. The only real use is as offensive radar to see where enemies are clustered through walls when you don't have Primed Animal Instinct yet. Replace it with Resonator, Roar, Ensnare, Dispensary, Breach Surge, whatever you feel like building into his kit. There are plenty of options to create some nasty combos.

His passive sucks, his 2 needs some work, other than that, he's great. 1's a tool, 3's a weapon, 4's a complete lockdown and combo set up. If something isn't working, maybe try using it in a different way or try a different build. Or at least take the time to try and fully understand how it actually functions.
 

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