Is been six years after Devstream 32

[VanFanel1980mx]

Some major feedback on the mod system and its "sustainability" came up, someone wasn't happy, but the question is at this point, how much of that has become a reality?

Spoiler

 

If timestamp doesn't work it is at 42 minutes.

[Skaleek]

Warm coat is still pretty useless.

[VanFanel1980mx]

29 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Warm coat is still pretty useless.

In my opinion even augments are mostly band-aid mods.

[--F--NerevarCM]

42 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Some major feedback on the mod system and its "sustainability" came up, someone wasn't happy, but the question is at this point, how much of that has become a reality?

  Hide contents

 

If timestamp doesn't work it is at 42 minutes.

At that point the game didn't had Primed Mods (Excluding Primed Chamber), Mod sets, Umbral Mods, Acolyte mods (Mods that require something done to activate a buff) or Augments. Probably didn't have Nightmare Mods or Corrupted Mods. Don't remember which update was during this stream.

So... yeah, DE can add more than 300 mods and not run out of ideas. And the Mod System still is the base of the game. Its perfect? No. It requires a major rebalancing for useless mods, but there's a lot of ideas that still can be added.

This is pretty much like someone complaining that Path of Exile have too much passives for classes

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 minute ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

At that point the game didn't had Primed Mods (Excluding Primed Chamber), Mod sets, Umbral Mods, Acolyte mods (Mods that require something done to activate a buff) or Augments. Probably didn't have Nightmare Mods or Corrupted Mods. Don't remember which update was during this stream.

So... yeah, DE can add more than 300 mods and not run out of ideas. And the Mod System still is the base of the game. Its perfect? No. It requires a major rebalancing for useless mods, but there's a lot of ideas that can be added

Actually primed mods are very derivative and not quite the new idea, they are just a new grind for the old one, corrupted ones on the very base are a different bunch only "outdone" by rivens but on its very core is not the amount of mods but their function what was criticized, furthermore as pointed above there is a bunch of useless mods, not even situational but just stuff no one bothers to use.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

at this point, you've more chance of seeing Snow in the Sahara than seeing DE rework mods. there are so many hundreds  in the game now that it's simply impossible to keep track of them all and the forgotten ones like Warm Coat and Diamond Skin should just be removed really, there isn't anywhere in the game that warrants modding for specific elemental resistance, we have a mod that does that for ALL damage types: Adaptation. mods like these, Flame Repellent etc. are obsolete. sure you could say "well new players don't have Adaptation", but even newer players quickly learn these mods are worthless. 

what we need is a de-cluttering: removing unnecessary mods nobody uses, and buffing rarely used mods where applicable. that's not what I think will happen though: DE will just leave mods as they are, and keep adding new mods to the pile instead.

 

[VanFanel1980mx]

1 minute ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

what we need is a de-cluttering: removing unnecessary mods nobody uses, and buffing rarely used mods where applicable. that's not what I think will happen though: DE will just leave mods as they are, and keep adding new mods to the pile instead.

Sadly I am pretty sure that will only pile up tons of trash code in the game.

[Verixonsen]

Imagine if they buffed and combined warm coat and lightning rod. To the following. +50% damage reduction to lighting, cold, magnetic. 75% chance to resist cold, electric and magnetic status effect. Now it's pretty worth while these effects are max rank. Then make them the same endo cost as steel fiber etc. And add one mod for each of the element combo's enemies use.

Then as a primed variant make it weaker overall but effects all elements and status effects. For example reduce elemental damage by 25% and gives you a 50% chance to resist status effects. If you want to get really spicy add in a -20% self status duration on top of the other effects for in case it procs so it's less rng reliant. However no other primed mod is like this as they are pure buffs over the base mod and a clear example of power creep. This would be a step in the right direction for mods instead of power creeping mods over and over again under new names.

[Voltage]

Wow, that was truly eye-opening to watch and sadly accurate to current 2020 Warframe from a 6 year old post.

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 minutes ago, Verixonsen said:

Imagine if they buffed and combined warm coat and lightning rod. To the following. +50% damage reduction to lighting, cold, magnetic. 75% chance to resist cold, electric and magnetic status effect. Now it's pretty worth while these effects are max rank. Then make them the same endo cost as steel fiber etc. And add one mod for each of the element combo's enemies use.

Then as a primed variant make it weaker overall but effects all elements and status effects. For example reduce elemental damage by 25% and gives you a 50% chance to resist status effects. If you want to get really spicy add in a -20% self status duration on top of the other effects for in case it procs so it's less rng reliant. However no other primed mod is like this as they are pure buffs over the base mod and a clear example of power creep. This would be a step in the right direction for mods instead of power creeping mods over and over again under new names.

That's still just derivative and people would rather use an arcane for protecting against certain stuff, for example full toxin resistance on Hildryn or Mag, the problem is also the obligatory mods as usual, the right approach should have been using mods like split chamber to turn a semi-auto weapon into a burst weapon, elemental mods only converting damage instead of adding, etc.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

personally i think mods need to be remove in favor of a new system. idk how exactly that would work. but the modding system keeps adding alot and in most cases its useless or insanely op there is very rare we get a middle ground. and we all know what happens when de sees us having fun with the op stuff they put into their own game

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

At that point the game didn't had Primed Mods (Excluding Primed Chamber), Mod sets, Umbral Mods, Acolyte mods (Mods that require something done to activate a buff) or Augments. Probably didn't have Nightmare Mods or Corrupted Mods. Don't remember which update was during this stream.

So... yeah, DE can add more than 300 mods and not run out of ideas. And the Mod System still is the base of the game. Its perfect? No. It requires a major rebalancing for useless mods, but there's a lot of ideas that still can be added.

I still think the feedback post quoted by Rebecca on that stream is still relevant though. I think "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is a bit harsh considering any mod on a weapon has to contribute to damage else it's worthless. However, saying mods are a crutch is actually quite accurate. Maybe not in 2014 given Steve's reaction (I wasn't playing then so I am not sure), but in 2020 I would say this is spot on feedback in this area. Look at Body Count/Gladiator Rush/Drifting Contact/Harkonar Scope, Condition Overload, Primed Reach, Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush, Rolling Guard, Adaptation, every base damage mod, etc. Most relevant mods in the game are indeed a crutch/band-aid for either poor design choices like the short duration of melee combo, or an avenue to circumvent gameplay mechanical skill. I believe there is large amounts of skill in the modding screen and what to choose, but there are quite a number of mod setups that just simply nullify the need to get good at parkour, precision aim with weapons, teamwork, stealth, and other mechanics. The examples of this are Kuva Bramma, Inaros, Khora, Mesa, and Shield Gating to name a few. The Helminth system really amplifies this reality.

The modding system does need a vast balance pass, but it would be a foundational undertaking that is just impossible for DE to handle. They tackled melee alone and it didn't even make a dent in the core issues that existed.

[VanFanel1980mx]

17 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I still think the feedback post quoted by Rebecca on that stream is still relevant though. I think "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is a bit harsh considering any mod on a weapon has to contribute to damage else it's worthless. However, saying mods are a crutch is actually quite accurate. Maybe not in 2014 given Steve's reaction (I wasn't playing then so I am not sure), but in 2020 I would say this is spot on feedback in this area. Look at Body Count/Gladiator Rush/Drifting Contact/Harkonar Scope, Condition Overload, Primed Reach, Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush, Rolling Guard, Adaptation, every base damage mod, etc. Most relevant mods in the game are indeed a crutch/band-aid for either poor design choices like the short duration of melee combo, or an avenue to circumvent gameplay mechanical skill. I believe there is large amounts of skill in the modding screen and what to choose, but there are quite a number of mod setups that just simply nullify the need to get good at parkour, precision aim with weapons, teamwork, stealth, and other mechanics. The examples of this are Kuva Bramma, Inaros, Khora, Mesa, and Shield Gating to name a few. The Helminth system really amplifies this reality.

The modding system does need a vast balance pass, but it would be a foundational undertaking that is just impossible for DE to handle. They tackled melee alone and it didn't even make a dent in the core issues that existed.

Considering they mentioned channeling in that one I was already playing back then and it was just something I didn't want to touch because energy was quite the valuable resource, in fact the need for energy siphon has been a pain for me, even with zenurik and energize is still a pain, someone will mention pizzas but for their cost and the way they are deployed I think is a waste to just put one out, get a single pulse and move on, static objective missions are ok for those but in a game where you need to be moving around I would rather have something that isn't nailed to the ground.

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I still think the feedback post quoted by Rebecca on that stream is still relevant though. I think "scraping the bottom of the barrel" is a bit harsh considering any mod on a weapon has to contribute to damage else it's worthless. However, saying mods are a crutch is actually quite accurate. Maybe not in 2014 given Steve's reaction (I wasn't playing then so I am not sure), but in 2020 I would say this is spot on feedback in this area. Look at Body Count/Gladiator Rush/Drifting Contact/Harkonar Scope, Condition Overload, Primed Reach, Weeping Wounds, Blood Rush, Rolling Guard, Adaptation, every base damage mod, etc. Most relevant mods in the game are indeed a crutch/band-aid for either poor design choices like the short duration of melee combo, or an avenue to circumvent gameplay mechanical skill. I believe there is large amounts of skill in the modding screen and what to choose, but there are quite a number of mod setups that just simply nullify the need to get good at parkour, precision aim with weapons, teamwork, stealth, and other mechanics. The examples of this are Kuva Bramma, Inaros, Khora, Mesa, and Shield Gating to name a few. The Helminth system really amplifies this reality.

The modding system does need a vast balance pass, but it would be a foundational undertaking that is just impossible for DE to handle. They tackled melee alone and it didn't even make a dent in the core issues that existed.

The problem is that any MAJOR change will set this community in flames. Remember when DE said they wanted to remove damage mods and everyone went nuts saying "Muh Multishot"

The amount of mods that would be removed/changed and the amount of compensations that DE would need to give to player would be gigantic. Players would simply not accept their mods being removed or changed/nerfed. OFC they would greatly accept the buffs tho.

However, for DE to makes those changes without any fear of stepping on eggs, the community needs to ask for these changes and back up DE. And this will never happen. If DE doesn't have the community assurance that will not have any DDOS attack or any other bullS#&$, then DE can make BIG changes.

Because the Mod System still is the 1.0. Probably the last 1.0 system left

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

I think one of the main issues with mods is that so many of them are mandatory. I’d wager around 80 to 90% of the mods equipped across your entire loadout are mandatory for completing high level content. Instead of leveling up to be able to do higher level content, as in a traditional rpg/mmo, you invest into your base damage/survivability mods. The problem there is, as they continue to raise the level of enemies we are expected to face, more and more of our loadout will be consumed by mandatory mods, until that’s all that’s left, and then they have nowhere to go and have to invent new systems to pile on top (arcanes). Primary weapons are basically already there. You’ve got to have serration, point strike, vital sense, split chamber, hunter mumu, and your elemental damage combo. Maybe that leaves you with one slot left, but let’s be honest, that’s probably gonna get taken up with something that increases your damage by just a teeny bit more. Because in a horde shooter, not being able to one-shot enemies, or at least come close, leaves you feeling completely ineffective.

They really have designed themselves into a corner and while I understand Steve getting defensive over what was said in that forum post, the truth is the progression system in Warframe was not designed to last a decade. It will eventually break, and it will be a mess to deal with. They could have saved themselves a whole hell of a lot of trouble if they would have just swallowed their pride and dealt with it back then.

[VanFanel1980mx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

Because in a horde shooter, not being able to one-shot enemies, or at least come close, leaves you feeling completely ineffective.

The Latron family feels like that already even with rivens, for a semi-auto rifle with high recoil and slow reload speed it should feel like a sniper rifle without zoom.

[--F--NerevarCM]

12 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

The Latron family feels like that already even with rivens, for a semi-auto rifle with high recoil and slow reload speed it should feel like a sniper rifle without zoom.

As a Latron user since Update 7.1 in 2013, I can say the exact same thing. My Latron P with a riven can one shot or two shot any steel path enemy. Its my favorite weapon in the game and the only one that gives me the DMR feel.

And I tried many others, none have the same feel. The recoil, sound, reload and the freakin' damage

[BethTheBean]

The exilus mods for guns, are just a handful of current mods that no one uses.

Safe to say, DE ran out of ideas by the time rivens were announced. 

[zakaryx]

I remember that thread. He had some really good points even back then but not all of his suggestions were great. Kinda sad that they basically ignored it despite Rebecca having what looks like the whole thing printed out.

 

Here's the old original thread for anyone interested.

 

Link seems to be broken or something. Here's an archived version.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160410104527/https://forums.warframe.com/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/

[VanFanel1980mx]

13 minutes ago, GrazeZeroLow said:

The exilus mods for guns, are just a handful of current mods that no one uses.

Safe to say, DE ran out of ideas by the time rivens were announced. 

Rivens are just the "logical conclusion" to corrupted mods basically.

[DrivaMain]

No need to balance existing forgotten mods. What DE needs to do is clean them up, purge them from the game. They are just unnecessary bloat in the game’s code. Plus, you can reduce the game’s size marginally.

[844448]

6 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

at this point, you've more chance of seeing Snow in the Sahara than seeing DE rework mods. there are so many hundreds  in the game now that it's simply impossible to keep track of them all and the forgotten ones like Warm Coat and Diamond Skin should just be removed really, there isn't anywhere in the game that warrants modding for specific elemental resistance, we have a mod that does that for ALL damage types: Adaptation. mods like these, Flame Repellent etc. are obsolete. sure you could say "well new players don't have Adaptation", but even newer players quickly learn these mods are worthless. 

what we need is a de-cluttering: removing unnecessary mods nobody uses, and buffing rarely used mods where applicable. that's not what I think will happen though: DE will just leave mods as they are, and keep adding new mods to the pile instead.

 

You know, you just opened the gate of having heavy hazard to warrant using specific elemental resistance mod and I'm all in for rushing to feedback for that

[vegetosayajin]

 

[Kaggelos]

11 hours ago, Verixonsen said:

Imagine if they buffed and combined warm coat and lightning rod. To the following. +50% damage reduction to lighting, cold, magnetic. 75% chance to resist cold, electric and magnetic status effect. Now it's pretty worth while these effects are max rank. Then make them the same endo cost as steel fiber etc. And add one mod for each of the element combo's enemies use.

Then as a primed variant make it weaker overall but effects all elements and status effects. For example reduce elemental damage by 25% and gives you a 50% chance to resist status effects. If you want to get really spicy add in a -20% self status duration on top of the other effects for in case it procs so it's less rng reliant. However no other primed mod is like this as they are pure buffs over the base mod and a clear example of power creep. This would be a step in the right direction for mods instead of power creeping mods over and over again under new names.

THANK YOU! This is something i've been saying for a while now, combine the "useless" mods of a certain type into one (parkour+movement, loot+enemy radar, elemental resistances etc), and maybe slightly buffing them, giving us more of an incentive to actually use them, 'cause oh boy, i'd really like to improve my parkour stats without sacrificing precious mod space for just a tiny boost in  slide friction...

[Loza03]

One thought I had (Might make my own thread for this) is to cut the 'base stat' mods out, at least for Warframes. Y'know, Vitality, Steel Fiber, Flow, etc. and have them be tied as permanent, account-wide upgrades for progress. Maybe story completion, or rewards for certain activities. The idea being that base stats and survivability are super variable from frame to frame and that makes the already monumental task of Warframe's enemy design even more a problem. How much Damage do you give the bad guys when players can have anywhere from Banshee's base to Umbral Inaros? If these weren't tied to mods, I think it'd be more reasonable to have certain activities designed for certain health ranges, since every build for that frame would have the same level of durability.