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I was just looking at the stats on Loki's Decoy and Saryn's Molt for possible Helminth subsumed abilities on some frames.

Molt out classes Decoy in usability with 2x duration, doing Toxin damage and speed buff also is a self status cleanser and has no cast time or animation. Even the augments for Molt is better with health recovery over trying to hide your Decoy to stay alive.  Other than going invisible Loki doesn't have much in his arsenal while Saryn is a nuke bomb clearing maps.

Im surprised DE didn't give Loki a little more love. I'm curios if DE will one day?

Sad Lilo And Stitch GIF

Edited by kwlingo
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14 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

I was just looking at the stats on Loki's Decoy and Saryn's Molt for possible Helminth subsumed abilities on some frames.

Molt out classes Decoy in usability with 2x duration, doing Toxin damage and speed buff. Even the augments for Molt is better with health recovery over trying to hide your Decoy to stay alive.  Other than going invisible Loki doesn't have much in his arsenal while Saryn is a nuke bomb clearing maps.

Im surprised DE didn't give Loki a little more love. I'm curios if DE will one day?

Your comparing a stealth frame (Loki) to a DPS nuke frame (Saryn) 

Yes Loki needs some love to his frame, but comparing bananas to pineapples is not the way to go, they are made for two different roles.

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Well Loki becomes very weak frame overall  . It was really good back i. the days, but now there is just no content where is better than any other frame. (Decoy-swap is good at some terrible spy missions but still). Sad to see my starter frame becoming so useless nowdays

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As a subsumed ability, generally speaking, most people would find more utility with Molt, however Decoy can be placed anywhere within line of sight, and used as a Swap Teleport target. So within the bounds of Loki's original kit of abilities, there is greater synergy.

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35 minutes ago, SpiritTeA said:

Well Loki becomes very weak frame overall  . It was really good back i. the days, but now there is just no content where is better than any other frame. (Decoy-swap is good at some terrible spy missions but still). Sad to see my starter frame becoming so useless nowdays

Loki can be somewhat brought up to spec with the helminth system. The basic Irradiating Disarm still has decent utility, however in my next build I replaced Radial Disarm with Perspicacity, in order to create a completely spy vault running build. I am experimenting now with some power strength and Fire Walker/Pyroclastic flow to do zone control while running around invisible, and spread heat procs. This last build was created with anti-infested combat in mind.

Edited by Sixes_Wild
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People claiming they're altogether different abilities... sure.

They are both decoys, regardless of if they're on operator, Inaros or Vor. In Molt's description it is stated as leaving a decoy.

It's like giving Volt only Shock mote, but since he's not support it's absolutely different from Wisp's.

Here's a bit of a side by side comparison:

Decoy               Molt

Decoy          = Decoy

25 sec          < 45 sec

600 HP+S   < 900 HP+S

Nothing      < 3 sec invulnerability + damage absorbtion

Nothing      < Speed Buff

Nothing      < Explosion upon expiration

Nothing      < Clear all status effects

Target Cast > Cast on current position - different mechanics, but since you can chose where decoy spawns, outside of the frame's location, we could give this one to Loki, at least so the poor fellow can get a +1.

 

Given all of this, not only is Decoy not a different ability, it's more a single piece of Molt's entire functionality.

They are direct competitors for subsuming and in terms of competition a certain match between Germany and Brazil during the 2014 World Cup comes to mind.

Edited by Ver1dian
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29 минут назад, Sixes_Wild сказал:

Loki can be somewhat brought up to spec with the helminth system. The basic Irradiating Disarm still has decent utility, however in my next build I replaced Radial Disarm with Perspicacity, in order to create a completely spy vault running build. I am experimenting now with some power strength and Fire Walker/Pyroclastic flow to do zone control while running around invisible, and spread heat procs. This last build was created with anti-infested combat in mind.

I did the same with perspicacity , still running him in spy missions because of nostalgia 

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3 hours ago, Firedtm said:

Your comparing a stealth frame (Loki) to a DPS nuke frame (Saryn) 

Yes Loki needs some love to his frame, but comparing bananas to pineapples is not the way to go, they are made for two different roles.

Helminth and Loki still falls short by lots on essentially he same purpose of ability.

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2 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Molt out classes Decoy in usability with 2x duration, doing Toxin damage and speed buff. Even the augments for Molt is better with health recovery over trying to hide your Decoy to stay alive.  Other than going invisible Loki doesn't have much in his arsenal while Saryn is a nuke bomb clearing maps.

I agree that molt outclasses decoy, but in most situations both molt and decoy are outclasses by a number of other abilities. 

Loki is more than just his invis he is the only frame that has a permanent disarm. His disarm is 20m radius at base range. His invis is arguably the best in the game since it has the longest base duration. Saying he doesn't have much in his arsenal is just wrong when he has 2 of the most useful survival tools in his kit. He also has one of the second highest base movement speeds behind gauss. Switch teleport and decoy are useless in most situations, but just using half of the abilities in his kit provides Loki more survivability than most frames in this game. With 2 "trash" abilities he has lots of options when it comes to subsume abilities. He is a very flexible frame and he can remain very safe while filling many roles. 

In my opinion Saryn isn't really a nuke either. I consider a nuke a one hit kill, Saryn can only really do that at low lvls. Spores is a debuffing AoE DoT, It kills but does not nuke. Miasma is also an AoE DoT that is more useful to spread spores and as a quick panic cc. Saryn is a great dps frame but that's about all she is good at.

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5 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that molt outclasses decoy, but in most situations both molt and decoy are outclasses by a number of other abilities. 

Loki is more than just his invis he is the only frame that has a permanent disarm. His disarm is 20m radius at base range. His invis is arguably the best in the game since it has the longest base duration. Saying he doesn't have much in his arsenal is just wrong when he has 2 of the most useful survival tools in his kit. He also has one of the second highest base movement speeds behind gauss. Switch teleport and decoy are useless in most situations, but just using half of the abilities in his kit provides Loki more survivability than most frames in this game. With 2 "trash" abilities he has lots of options when it comes to subsume abilities. He is a very flexible frame and he can remain very safe while filling many roles. 

In my opinion Saryn isn't really a nuke either. I consider a nuke a one hit kill, Saryn can only really do that at low lvls. Spores is a debuffing AoE DoT, It kills but does not nuke. Miasma is also an AoE DoT that is more useful to spread spores and as a quick panic cc. Saryn is a great dps frame but that's about all she is good at.

I think people are forgetting to read the red letters in OP. "Helminth"

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As a subsummed ability, Loki's Decoy is fine, if you don't have Saryn's Molt yet, but what is the OP's point?  IDK.

Decoy works well as part of Loki's kit, and Loki's kit works well for stealth and combat avoidance - is he the banana or the pineapple? obviously the banana.

 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

This is a really weird comparison. Two completely different abilities. This is not comparing bananas to pineapples, it’s like comparing bananas to tennis balls.

This is from wiki. It even state's Decoy not Molt lol

Saryn sheds her skin, removing all existing status effects and increasing her movement speed by 1.3 / 1.35 / 1.4 / 1.5 times for 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 / 5 seconds, while leaving behind a decoy with 400 shields and 150 / 300 / 400 / 500 health that draws enemy fire for 14 / 24 / 32 / 40 seconds. When deployed, the decoy is invulnerable for a period of 1.5 / 2 / 3 / 3 seconds, during which all incoming damage absorbed by it is converted and added to its health. The decoy will explode if it loses all of its hitpoints, if its duration expires or if the ability is cast again, inflicting 240 / 300 / 350 / 400 Toxin b Toxin damage with 100% Toxin b Toxin status chance to all enemies within 5 / 6 / 7 / 10 meters from it.

  • Decoy's health, explosion damage, and speed multiplier are affected by Ability Strength.
    • Explosion damage does not bypass obstacles in the environment and diminishes with distance.
  • Decoy and speed buff duration are affected by Ability Duration.
  • Explosion radius is affected by Ability Range.
  • Status cleanse on cast, invulnerability time, decoy shields and status chance are not affected by mods.
  • Does not have a cast time or animation.
Edited by kwlingo
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43 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

I think people are forgetting to read the red letters in OP. "Helminth"

I touched on that. In the first line of my post. I was referring to subsumed abilities since that was the point of the OP.  

49 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that molt outclasses decoy, but in most situations both molt and decoy are outclasses by a number of other abilities. 

Then I gave my opinions on the rest of your post and the points you made about Loki only being useful for invis and Saryn being a nuke.

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Just now, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Metronome has a 15 sec base invis. Loki's is 12 second base

You are correct. I never play Octavia and forgot all about her. I find spamming tbag obnoxious, it limits my options and breaks the flow of battle. I didn't really consider Ivara's channeled invis either since she moves so slow and I find that boring and limiting. 

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2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that molt outclasses decoy, but in most situations both molt and decoy are outclasses by a number of other abilities. 

Loki is more than just his invis he is the only frame that has a permanent disarm. His disarm is 20m radius at base range. His invis is arguably the best in the game since it has the longest base duration. Saying he doesn't have much in his arsenal is just wrong when he has 2 of the most useful survival tools in his kit. He also has one of the second highest base movement speeds behind gauss. Switch teleport and decoy are useless in most situations, but just using half of the abilities in his kit provides Loki more survivability than most frames in this game. With 2 "trash" abilities he has lots of options when it comes to subsume abilities. He is a very flexible frame and he can remain very safe while filling many roles. 

In my opinion Saryn isn't really a nuke either. I consider a nuke a one hit kill, Saryn can only really do that at low lvls. Spores is a debuffing AoE DoT, It kills but does not nuke. Miasma is also an AoE DoT that is more useful to spread spores and as a quick panic cc. Saryn is a great dps frame but that's about all she is good at.

Loki's kit is weak that's why you don't see him in spy and while he technically has the longest base duration for invis skills flat out, he's only competing with ash who has a faster cast time. Ivara has a channel and Octavia has a longer invis than loki when modded and never has to leave it since her ability is refreshable so Loki isn't even the best at being a stealth frame. As far as his disarm while it's a good enemy de buff it's not useful because it's not where the game is at, a dead enemy is better than a controlled on and if the enemies cant see you then what does it really matter if they have a gun, sure you lower your chance of taking an accidental shot but that's it. The days of the Loki master race are long one sadly. We don't even talk about his last two abilities cause they're not worth talking about. As far as having options when it comes to subsuming I would be careful the last thing I want is for DE to start thinking it's ok to give frames useless abilities because we can replace them, it shouldn't be our job to give frames completed kits.

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Ah yes. More people desperately trying to explain how Decoy, despite doing literally nothing of note in most missions is somehow a good ability and doesn't need any changes when we have the ability to shut down entire rooms with either damage or CC while decoy is dying from a stiff breeze.

Next up, Switch Teleport and the apparent value of teleporting a Heavy Gunner across the room instead of just shooting it dead.

Edited by Aldain
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