Combine Survival with Mini-boss Capture on Rotation to Discourage Camping

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Read the title. That's all I have. Camping gameplay sucks.

[Yasha-7HS]

1.) This already exists. The Lua Survival spawns sentients. 

2.) Camping is simply the most viable strategy for survival due to how spawn works. Moving from room to room means that mobs spawn more erratically, and take longer to get to you. Instead of spawning a mini-boss that dies in 2 hits instead of 1 as opposed to all the other mobs, maybe up the spawn rates to both increase difficulty and potential drops of life support, as many people have been asking for for actual years.

 

[kevoisvevo]

Remove life support. There you got true survival now.

[superiouz]

The design is already there. U need to move to activate support. However because how the enemy spawn u better group. Either move together or stay together. 

And oh the mini bos already there too. Mot corrupted vor. And lua. 

If u want survival that forced u to move  then its deflection. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

FYI, sentinels do not spawn on Lua SP. On regular star chart it is so low level that you can smack them with few hits. Kinda same for Vor. On SP be is maybe 2-3 times stronger than bombard? If gets in your melee range I give him for 5 secs tops. These “mini bosses” Have no impact on the survival mission. I still would like if there is more though.

And going to one location and staying there. It is ideal. There is nothing wrong in that. The issue has to do more with game design. Graineer provide the highest affinity, yet offer the least resistance. Infested are much weaker, but the energy drain is a problem. Corpus and corrupted deal higher damage and have Nullifiers. The ideal farm is to pull a Graineer SP survival, get one farming frame for extra loot, pick a corner, pitch a tent and ensure you have 100% CC. If they give enemies CC protection or resistance a significant portion of the frames lose all viability and the game becomes more entrenched in tank frames. 

I personally never run survival missions in a group. Even though it is farming heaven, I play the game to have fun, not sit semi AFK in a corner. However, there are major fundamental design issues when playing in a group of 4 players that completely nullify most challenge the game offers. DE only resolution is to create things like Nacremecks. Immune to stats. Immune to melee. Invulnerability phases. Can only be attacked in a tiny spot. Basically, they through the towel and just create gimmicky designed crap to remotely challenge the player.

[xombob89]

I wouldnt mind a variant of survival with actually something to do besides just killing things (you dont even need life support towers mostly). Like put the caches in survival instead of the other modes where nobody goes after them. 

[BahamutKaiser]

They already have systems in place, they could just use them more. Hunters, invasions, they could start spawning liches and Thralls into survival too, eventually you'll reach the target level for your lich content.

There's some interesting ways they could alter survival so foes could vent atmo on a specific tile if your camping, making it devoid of life support until you secure several restoration locations, maybe on different tile. 

An upgrade might be nice, but ppl play vanilla survival because it's the most bearable way to access obscure loot, and finding ways around obnoxious grind is not an ethical reason to change something. There are Kuva Survival, Void Fissure Survival, Arbitration Survival, and so on, we don't precisely need a different survival mode. If survival is refurbished, it should be too make it more entertaining, not to invalidate META grind countering behaviors. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

They already have systems in place, they could just use them more. Hunters, invasions, they could start spawning liches and Thralls into survival too, eventually you'll reach the target level for your lich content.

There's some interesting ways they could alter survival so foes could vent atmo on a specific tile if your camping, making it devoid of life support until you secure several restoration locations, maybe on different tile. 

An upgrade might be nice, but ppl play vanilla survival because it's the most bearable way to access obscure loot, and finding ways around obnoxious grind is not an ethical reason to change something. There are Kuva Survival, Void Fissure Survival, Arbitration Survival, and so on, we don't precisely need a different survival mode. If survival is refurbished, it should be too make it more entertaining, not to invalidate META grind countering behaviors. 

It's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem. People camp because there is no incentive to roam the map. If roaming the map was incentivized by the mission, if movement was required to complete the mission people wouldn't just camp in one spot for hours pressing one button. Yes it's efficient, but it's also horrible gameplay design. And the worst part is that people in random queue legitimately get angry if you refuse to play like that. Camping is incredibly toxic and draining mode of playing Warframe and after so many years DE still don't try to solve this problem with actual mission design. All original mission modes are long overdue for an overhaul and almost nobody talks about this. Survival shouldn't allow for camping by design. Never should have. You have all these weapons and gameplay mechanics but instead of using them in an open mission this team of four demigods is huddling in one room and essentially afking for hours on a macro. That's crazy. 

So in case of survival, one of MANY ways to fix this issue is to make it so every 5 minutes a capture target would appear on the map and you have to go and kill it to complete a rotation and get your reward. Which is what I had suggested. 

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb AperoBeltaTwo:

It's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem. People camp because there is no incentive to roam the map. If roaming the map was incentivized by the mission, if movement was required to complete the mission people wouldn't just camp in one spot for hours pressing one button. Yes it's efficient, but it's also horrible gameplay design. 

1. That is a problem concerning warframe abilitys. Ever tried survival without a Nekros or nuke-frame. Have fun roaming the map

2. Why should Camping be a horrible gameplay design. If You don't like the game Mode, then don't Play it.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb AperoBeltaTwo:

 And the worst part is that people in random queue legitimately get angry if you refuse to play like that. Camping is incredibly toxic and draining mode of playing Warframe and after so many years DE still don't try to solve this problem with actual mission design. All original mission modes are long overdue for an overhaul and almost nobody talks about this. 

 Working together with a fool is always toxic regardless what you are doing

vor 17 Stunden schrieb AperoBeltaTwo:

Survival shouldn't allow for camping by design. 

LOL 

[dodyouserious]

no life support and better AI is the answer

[Tsukinoki]

On 2020-10-04 at 4:05 PM, kevoisvevo said:

Remove life support. There you got true survival now.

6 hours ago, dodyouserious said:

no life support

So instead of an actual mission just turn it into a map where you just hide in some of the various areas where AI simply can never get to you and camp out with a Macro to avoid AFK detection for 8+ hours as you sleep IRL and collect rewards every 5 minutes without ever having to do anything?

The life support exists for one reason: To make you actually have to engage with the enemies.
If life support didn't exist then why even have enemies?  After all you can just sit in a corner safe from the enemies and AFK infinite rewards.
And every tileset in the game has an option to do that.

Even if you try to go "But you have to kill X number of enemies to get rewards...." it just turns into: "Get a few buffers, a few nukers that ignore LOS and a few weapons with indirect AoE ability, such as the penta, and just lob attacks down at the enemies that are utterly unable to touch you...." (and before anyone says that no one would do this: This is the same playerbase that turned capture missions into 3 hour farming runs for certain materials and had DE implement the capture target dieing after a while if you downed them but refused to capture in order to prevent people from turning into the AFK nuker farm that you guys seem to want survivals to become....)

6 hours ago, dodyouserious said:

and better AI is the answer

The AI in warframe isn't that dumb.  The problem is that they are all killed within 0.5 seconds of spawning in meaning that they never have a chance to use that AI.
I mean you see the enemies using tactics: They use cover, they hide within nullifier bubbles and frost eximus bubbles, they cluster near the healers, the hide behind shield lances, corpus cluster near the techs which spit out the shield drones, etc.

Fact of the matter is that we could give them deep blue level AI and it wouldn't matter since they would never live long enough for it to be noticed.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

Finding an alcove to camp in like people do is just such an efficient farming strategy. 

That being said, staying in one room is NOT camping. It’s locking down an area and making it your own. The best rooms for this are generally very large rooms with plenty of space to move around. I’m all for DE fixing spawns so this isn’t necessary, though.

[kevoisvevo]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

So instead of an actual mission just turn it into a map where you just hide in some of the various areas where AI simply can never get to you and camp out with a Macro to avoid AFK detection for 8+ hours as you sleep IRL and collect rewards every 5 minutes without ever having to do anything?

The life support exists for one reason: To make you actually have to engage with the enemies.
If life support didn't exist then why even have enemies?  After all you can just sit in a corner safe from the enemies and AFK infinite rewards.
And every tileset in the game has an option to do that.

Even if you try to go "But you have to kill X number of enemies to get rewards...." it just turns into: "Get a few buffers, a few nukers that ignore LOS and a few weapons with indirect AoE ability, such as the penta, and just lob attacks down at the enemies that are utterly unable to touch you...." (and before anyone says that no one would do this: This is the same playerbase that turned capture missions into 3 hour farming runs for certain materials and had DE implement the capture target dieing after a while if you downed them but refused to capture in order to prevent people from turning into the AFK nuker farm that you guys seem to want survivals to become....)

The AI in warframe isn't that dumb.  The problem is that they are all killed within 0.5 seconds of spawning in meaning that they never have a chance to use that AI.
I mean you see the enemies using tactics: They use cover, they hide within nullifier bubbles and frost eximus bubbles, they cluster near the healers, the hide behind shield lances, corpus cluster near the techs which spit out the shield drones, etc.

Fact of the matter is that we could give them deep blue level AI and it wouldn't matter since they would never live long enough for it to be noticed.

dunno which rock you were hiding under but survival has always been about hiding in one spot afking for hours. octavia, khora, nekros. do i need to go on here?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Svenx13 said:

1. That is a problem concerning warframe abilitys. Ever tried survival without a Nekros or nuke-frame. Have fun roaming the map

2. Why should Camping be a horrible gameplay design. If You don't like the game Mode, then don't Play it.

 Working together with a fool is always toxic regardless what you are doing

LOL 

Because DE been fighting this sh't for years. Very deliberately and unsuccessfully. Mentioned how much they dislike camping meta on Devstreams. And also because of basic common sense understanding that missions that allow for macro-afk-went-to-sleep gameplay aren't something you would want to have in ANY game, unless your vision of an engaging action gameplay culminates with the Cookie Clicker bot.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb AperoBeltaTwo:

Because DE been fighting this sh't for years. Very deliberately and unsuccessfully. Mentioned how much they dislike camping meta on Devstreams. And also because of basic common sense understanding that missions that allow for macro-afk-went-to-sleep gameplay aren't something you would want to have in ANY game, unless your vision of an engaging action gameplay culminates with the Cookie Clicker bot.

Then don't use Makros. like i said you are allowed to play solo like you wan't.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

22 hours ago, (PS4)Svenx13 said:

Then don't use Makros. like i said you are allowed to play solo like you wan't.

You are a human makros when you camp. Makros isn't the point. The point was that camping is so braindead that just pressing one button for literal hours is a perfectly viable tactic for it.

[Zhaeph]

14 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You are a human makros when you camp. Makros isn't the point. The point was that camping is so braindead that just pressing one button for literal hours is a perfectly viable tactic for it.

The only thing that keeps people farming in only one room is the S#&$ty spawn and drops of the "air" from enemies also the time it needs for one air purifier to land is just... ugh.

[BahamutKaiser]

On 2020-10-06 at 8:02 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem. People camp because there is no incentive to roam the map. If roaming the map was incentivized by the mission, if movement was required to complete the mission people wouldn't just camp in one spot for hours pressing one button. Yes it's efficient, but it's also horrible gameplay design. And the worst part is that people in random queue legitimately get angry if you refuse to play like that. Camping is incredibly toxic and draining mode of playing Warframe and after so many years DE still don't try to solve this problem with actual mission design. All original mission modes are long overdue for an overhaul and almost nobody talks about this. Survival shouldn't allow for camping by design. Never should have. You have all these weapons and gameplay mechanics but instead of using them in an open mission this team of four demigods is huddling in one room and essentially afking for hours on a macro. That's crazy. 

So in case of survival, one of MANY ways to fix this issue is to make it so every 5 minutes a capture target would appear on the map and you have to go and kill it to complete a rotation and get your reward. Which is what I had suggested. 

Sophistry. 

There are other modes, and they chose this one because they wanted this option. This isn't the only mode of play, or even a significant one, it's a player choice, and you already have alternatives if you don't like it. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 2020-10-09 at 3:37 PM, BahamutKaiser said:

Sophistry. 

There are other modes, and they chose this one because they wanted this option. This isn't the only mode of play, or even a significant one, it's a player choice, and you already have alternatives if you don't like it. 

When there's an overwhelming incentive to play in a certain way, it's not really a choice. From the get go steel essenses shouldn't have been an enemy drop but a rotation reward unaffected by loot buffs and perhaps even boosters. If you camp and you bring a loot frame and play in a certain way, you can maximize your steel essense rewards to a laughable amount compared to every other way of playing on the steel path. This is what should have been balanced from the very beginning, but nobody did that. Resulting in a fairly predictable camping gameplay resurgence. Camping is not a choice. The game is built, if unintentionally, to reward this kind of gameplay above everything else.