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The Enhanced Graphics Engine


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12 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

You are not supposed to see performance gains. This is an "enhanced" graphics engine. Its whole point is the take more resources from your computer for additional graphical quality. For people who have good PC, Warframe does not use all resources available to it. This engine is for those who can run it, not for potato users.

Yes, DE will do optimizations to it such that it runs better, but can not make it run better than the existing classic engine, just as close to it as possible.

If your PC cannot handle the enhanced graphics engine, stick to classic until DE does more patches to it.

However, if your PC is potato, no amount of optimizations will ever help you.

And yes, I am using the same device as you.

With deferred rendering, they can actually surpass the forward renderer's performance once they get the optimizations in order. However, the biggest hit will be VRAM as it has to store the entire 'frame' a couple times over in whats called a 'g buffer', which can be expensive memory-wise. Integrated graphics will have a harder time with this update than dedicated graphics.

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as it stands currently the new beta engine uses too much GPU resources if the player bae wants to continually play the game. it is a good idea to try and keep up with the times with next gen graphics but currently this needs to be optimized ASAP for all the players to run it. which is not good. with the reveal of Nezah Prime today with some observations it seems that with how the graphics are being implemented into the game currently there needs to be some more optimizations with the classic engine as well... just pointing that out.

Edited by Kingdom_key599
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I had acceptable performance and stable framerates on deferred when it was a launcher option, but now that it's an in-game option I am suddenly getting massive fps drops and stuttering despite not changing any settings from what they were on deferred before. I'm sure there have been changes between it being a launcher option and it being an in-game beta, so I'll just wait and see if it improves as the beta engine gets updates or if it just turns out to be a poorly timed machine/driver issue.

It all looks lovely, though. 

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First up thankyou...

Second I have been using the engine now since release and have had no negative effects at all.

However I have had a very positive side effect ?? My GPU for the first time ever in Warframe is now running super quiet. Fans no longer spinning at high speed and temps lower. No changes made my end...in fact I have set everything at max setting to get the best out of the visuals. Only exception is motion blur as I turn that off on every game. So I have no idea if you tweaked more items behind the scenes but in the past my GPU would kinda load up and the fans be spinning fast from the moment I spawned into the Orbiter after the login. That issue has now simply vanished for which I am nost grateful. Another side effect of this as I use open back headphones is that I now play at a lower overall volume for which my ears also send a quick thank you for the improvement :)

 

EDIT: forgot to mention that I am using an Aorus GTX 1080ti 11GB

Edited by johnno23
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On 2020-10-09 at 2:47 AM, MunsuLight said:

Also, I dont like you forcing people out of Direct X older version.. I dont crash at all on old version and now when I try the "newest" I'm always full crashing my computer.. It is nice to see that you care for people with older rigs /s 

It's currently in beta, so no wonder it might crash. But if you don't want to see it continue to crash once it's out of beta and the old engine retired then use the beta and every time you crash or see an issue, document and report! It's to everyone's benefit, including you.

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On 2020-10-08 at 10:58 PM, Aadi880 said:

You are not supposed to see performance gains. This is an "enhanced" graphics engine. Its whole point is the take more resources from your computer for additional graphical quality. For people who have good PC, Warframe does not use all resources available to it. This engine is for those who can run it, not for potato users.

Yes, DE will do optimizations to it such that it runs better, but can not make it run better than the existing classic engine, just as close to it as possible.

If your PC cannot handle the enhanced graphics engine, stick to classic until DE does more patches to it.

However, if your PC is potato, no amount of optimizations will ever help you.

And yes, I am using the same device as you.

It's a new graphics engine that I assume will at one point be the only option available. While it is done with the goal of filling out the high end spec gap (more resources available than are being utilized), it's important to highlight what it does to the low end machine.

If you actually read the post DE made at the top, you'll read that they also want to know how it impacts low end machines.

It's not unreasonable to ask that DE not make existing content perform worse.

The statement "if your PC is potato, no amount of optimization will ever help you" is utter nonsense. Optimization will always help make the game viable for lower end machines.

I also seriously doubt that you're running the exact same machine as me, considering the vast number of different permutations of hardware specifications that have been in Lenovo Thinkpad laptops.

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On 2020-10-06 at 12:35 PM, [DE]Steve said:

Toast.

This is Part 3 of my observations, as stated here:

 

I've now tried the beta version of the enhanced graphics engine, and the trends I outlined in Part 2 hold true for all of the remaining tilesets EXCEPT for Railjack.

I experienced lower framerates along with a great deal more stuttering in every mission type on every tileset. This affects everything from relays to actual missions. Generally speaking, the more complex the level architecture was, the more stuttering I experienced. This means that planets like Eris were especially problematic for my experience.

Simpler tilesets saw significantly better performance.

Over the last few years, performance in newer content has dropped significantly for me. That is true for the open world areas as well as something like Railjack. It's at least in part because of this worse performance that my experience with this content has suffered and I haven't really engaged with it all that much past where I felt a need to in order to remain up to date with gear and options relevant for the rest of the game.

I hope that this new engine doesn't result in an experience worse than the current one, as I don't see myself playing the game with this kind of performance impairment.

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On 2020-10-07 at 11:56 PM, Shemarria said:

Not all of us have the $500 to $1500 to buy 6 to 8 gig vid cards..

$500? You are gravely mistaken. There a lot of good used cards that will run Warframe at more than 100 FPS that is less than $150. Used RX 580 8GB models goes around 120-130$ and it can run Warframe at 60-100 FPS 1080p Max settings with the new renderer.

 

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1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

$500? You are gravely mistaken. There a lot of good used cards that will run Warframe at more than 100 FPS that is less than $150. Used RX 580 8GB models goes around 120-130$ and it can run Warframe at 60-100 FPS 1080p Max settings with the new renderer.

 

Bear in mind price varies depending on where you live.

The same item on US will have a different price on a different country, so a $500-$1000 price difference is very common than we'd like to think.

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15 hours ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

It's currently in beta, so no wonder it might crash. But if you don't want to see it continue to crash once it's out of beta and the old engine retired then use the beta and every time you crash or see an issue, document and report! It's to everyone's benefit, including you.

I will work as a beta tester when they pay me for it. Until then, this is nothing more than an entertainment product and anything I do in it is purely for entertainment's sake. Tracking down bugs is not entertainment.

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10 hours ago, Pixxel_5 said:

The statement "if your PC is potato, no amount of optimization will ever help you" is utter nonsense. Optimization will always help make the game viable for lower end machines.

I've played the game on an intel n3050 processor (1.6 GHz) with intel HD graphics 620mb (Integrated)

I very well know what it means to play on potato PCs under the minimum specs. Enhanced rendering involves contact shadows, parallax reflections, space screen reflections and devs are even considering ray tracing-like technology. So no. Optimisations will not help on hardware limitations. Even if the software is optimised, your hardware is not, and most probably won't even understand the instructions given to it without an updated instruction set for the CPU/GPU to read. Laptop processors don't update like softwares do, especially when the processor in question is discontinued.

And no. Updating drivers will not help either. Drivers are a medium for applications and OS to talk to the computer hardware, and vice versa. There is a limitation onto how far it can go before it itself gets bottlenecked.

10 hours ago, Pixxel_5 said:

I also seriously doubt that you're running the exact same machine as me, considering the vast number of different permutations of hardware specifications that have been in Lenovo Thinkpad laptops.

If you'd like to know, I'm currently on intel core i5-7200U CPU on 2.50Hz. Same GPU as before.

I had played on a AMD one before though.

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34 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Bear in mind price varies depending on where you live.

The same item on US will have a different price on a different country, so a $500-$1000 price difference is very common than we'd like to think.

I live in South East Asia Region. The price is almost the same. I am pointing out that spending $500 for a GPU if you play Just Warframe is a huge waste of money and you can buy used good performing GPUs for cheap if you are really that desperate.

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10 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

 Enhanced rendering involves contact shadows, parallax reflections, space screen reflections and devs are even considering ray tracing-like technology. So no. Optimisations will not help on hardware limitations. Even if the software is optimised, your hardware is not, and most probably won't even understand the instructions given to it without an updated instruction set for the CPU/GPU to read. Laptop processors don't update like softwares do, especially when the processor in question is discontinued.

Ah yes, things that not only can be turned off but following enough feedback, on PC could and should be off by default. :/

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This new engine has halved my FPS right off the bat (going from 140-160 fps down to 60-80 fps with exactly the same settings), but what's even worse - I'm getting occasional but frequent (every minute or so) FPS lags and heavy swings where it goes down to 12-14 fps for a couple of seconds, then right back.

As it is now - this engine is in an unplayable state for my 2 years old laptop (GeForce 1050 TI)

I've got no such issues with the Classic engine.

Edited by dataskin
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48 minutes ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

Ah yes, things that not only can be turned off but following enough feedback, on PC could and should be off by default. :/

Space screen reflections and parallax reflections cannot be turned off, and are on by default regardless. 

However, these are not used everywhere. For example, Deadlock Protocol Tilesets contains parallax reflections, however, Orbiter/Poster reflections still uses cubemaps. Given that, since it has not replaced them yet, it will stay on by default, and may be turned off after the cubemaps gets replaced.

Though, knowing DE's short attention span, idk when it'll come. They've mandated adaptive exposure, even tough it doesn't even look right nor does it does it job properly...

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On 2020-10-09 at 9:21 PM, TheSomepotato said:

With deferred rendering, they can actually surpass the forward renderer's performance once they get the optimizations in order. However, the biggest hit will be VRAM as it has to store the entire 'frame' a couple times over in whats called a 'g buffer', which can be expensive memory-wise. Integrated graphics will have a harder time with this update than dedicated graphics.

Deferred rendering can surpass forward renderer when scene contains dynamic GI, otherwise, it is not as efficient as forward shading and it never will be, but that is not the point tho, deferred rendering opens the pathway for many advanced features and lets be honest, warframe is already extremely optimized to a point losing some optimization is not a big deal.

Furthermore, to other people, as a software engineer i want to give some context to what is happening. Deferred rendering has become de-facto-standard in real time computer graphics in recent years, all major game engines have already made the switch. This isnt just about the visual improvements you are going to get initially, this is the pathway to long term graphical support of Warframe. Do understand that deferred rendering is the future and this transition has to happen.

Difference in performance loss should be around %20, if you are losing more than that dont worry, it will get optimized over time

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28 minutes ago, Navhkrin said:

Deferred rendering can surpass forward renderer when scene contains dynamic GI, otherwise, it is not as efficient as forward shading and it never will be, but that is not the point tho, deferred rendering opens the pathway for many advanced features and lets be honest, warframe is already extremely optimized to a point losing some optimization is not a big deal.

Furthermore, to other people, as a software engineer i want to give some context to what is happening. Deferred rendering has become de-facto-standard in real time computer graphics in recent years, all major game engines have already made the switch. This isnt just about the visual improvements you are going to get initially, this is the pathway to long term graphical support of Warframe. Do understand that deferred rendering is the future and this transition has to happen.

Difference in performance loss should be around %20, if you are losing more than that dont worry, it will get optimized over time

Not necessarily true to your first point -- extending on your last point, GPUs are becoming more and more tailored towards deferred rendering. In addition, the game only needs to render the special effects that are literally on screen at the time its' rendered -- this is used for more than just lighting.

 

The downside is deferred rendering makes transparency and translucency much more difficult, but fortunately there isn't much of that in WF.

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4 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

Space screen reflections and parallax reflections cannot be turned off, and are on by default regardless. 

However, these are not used everywhere. For example, Deadlock Protocol Tilesets contains parallax reflections, however, Orbiter/Poster reflections still uses cubemaps. Given that, since it has not replaced them yet, it will stay on by default, and may be turned off after the cubemaps gets replaced.

Though, knowing DE's short attention span, idk when it'll come. They've mandated adaptive exposure, even tough it doesn't even look right nor does it does it job properly...

I believe the orbiter also screen space reflections (but also cubemaps, obviously) -- much more notable in front of the arsenal, the floor reflects only what's on your screen, though the effect is way more subtle on the new engine

Edited by TheSomepotato
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Well, I tried out the new engine today.  It's um... it's a thing... I guess.  I mean.... to be perfectly honest, if I had just logged in one day and the new engine was turned on without me knowing, I'm not sure I would have noticed a difference.  When the side by side difference is pointed out to me, sure, I can see it, and the new engine looks better, but I guess I never looked closely enough at my warframe's shadow to even notice.  Anyway, I'm just relieved that my 'puter handles the new sh*t without breaking a sweat (it had damn well better--I upgraded the hell out of it just last year.)

That said, I do want to say a few words about game development and ethics when it comes to this sort of thing.  I'm very glad to see that you guys are concerned with performance and aren't just striving to make the game look as good as technology can possibly allow, framerate be dammed.  I really appreciate that.  But still, I have to say, it worries me that games like this see constantly evolving and improving graphics.  I mean, to a certain extent that's okay--I'm glad that the game looks better than it did seven years ago.  However, I think it's a bit cruel and unethical to continuously improve the graphics, thus pulling the rug out from under many older players when their machines can't keep up, thus forcing them to upgrade their hardware or put the game in the freezer until they can afford to do so.  I used to be able to run this game buttery smooth on my laptop.  Those quaint days are long gone.  I moved to a new gaming desktop about four years ago, and things were great for awhile, but I was already beginning to feel the weight with some games, hence my upgrade to ram and graphics last year.  Things are happy again, but for how long?  Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I really think that gaming tech moves too fast.  Just because the technology is there doesn't mean it's right or fair to push it on gamers so quickly, forcing them to spends hundreds or even thousands practically every year to keep up.  It's frickin' crazy.  I feel like a shiny gaming rig should last you more than a couple of years.

Now, I realize that Warframe is a different ballgame than a traditional pay-for AAA game, like, say, The Witcher 3 or something, but I still think it's unfair to evolve it ad infinitum to where veteran players log in one day and can't run the thing anymore.  It's not just the money, either--computer upgrades can be a b*tch.  I don't expect to be able to play the newest games if I don't keep up with the tech, but I'd like the peace of mind of knowing that I can continue to play the game I've known and loved for so many years.  I mean, honestly, how good does it need to look?  Isn't it good enough?  I sure think so.

Now, I don't really have anything to complain about because I wanted to upgrade the 'puter regardless, so I'm safe at the moment, but still, I wonder how long that safety will last.  But at the moment, it seems that you guys are pretty committed to optimization and preserving performance, and once again I really do appreciate that.  I just wanted to throw this out there.  It's something to think about, and a discussion that needs to be had in this ever-evolving world of mind-boggling gaming tech.

Lastly, I was really hoping that this new engine would finally fix the wacky, florescent colored rocks and other lighting oddities in the dojo that started shortly after The Saint of Altra.  No dice atm.  I'm hoping that will change as the engine develops or more materials are moves to PBR?  Forgive me if I'm getting some things wrong here--some of this rendering stuff is a little insider baseball for me and I don't understand all of it.  I do hope that the end result will finally make the dojo look right.  Incidentally, to be completely honest, I actually think the game looked best right before the Saint of Altra update, and I'd be sound as a pound if we could roll it back to there and keep it there forever... :/  I mean, I'm kidding, but.. y'know...

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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21 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

Space screen reflections and parallax reflections cannot be turned off, and are on by default regardless.

I mean on the engine/codebase side they could, perhaps the parameters to do so haven't been exposed, but in that case should. Or indeed in some instances where turning something off completely would break the rendering(say causing things to be rendered in flat colors or even completely black or white) further parameters could be exposed for cranking the effect quality/resolution down instead.

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I expected little difference as I had been using the experimental option in the launcher but like the Cambion Drift, it has been knocked out of the park. If this is the baseline for how good it will look in future (obviously I guess), fantastic. Its subtle in static screenshots but in motion, especially on the open worlds and Corpus ship tileset, it adds depth. The giant shadow circle on the plains looks awful when in AW but otherwise, love it.

As an aside, my performance has increased with regards to dips and overall I have not noticed a lot of difference in FPS but V-Sync is still all over the place for me using the the enhanced engine (stuttery dips). Had to turn it off and cap max framerate in-game. Using borderless and trying to use Windows to cap it to my monitor ended up with a nearly molten GPU.

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