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Bring Back Self-Damage


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DE.. Please bring back Self Damage.. why you guys cant just minimalize the self damage output.. than just removed it entirely ? :(

Much of warframes lost their usabilities.. mostly for chroma.. many people are dissapointed about the self-stagger.. and the self stagger is way to much making our warframe more vulnerable to the enemies.. 

On self-damage we are learn to more carefull using aoe weapons .. but on self-stagger we are like learn to keeping away to use aoe weapon.. 

Please DE... Bring back self-damage.. because this self-stagger is impacting to the most of usability in the game.. 

Even warframes are space ninja.. lethal, and fast reaction but it doesnt mean they cant be damaged by them selfs.. :)

Edit: Well yea mirage not need a self dmg

Edited by Authentic7355
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what does mirage have to do with self damage?
also, you just have to fire AoE far away, same as before, the only difference is that nowadays you can use primed surefooted/handspring to help reduce the effects (I think? idk, I dont use em)

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tbh, the ONLY two I can see almost requiring self damage is Night form Equinox with her 3 augment......and of course chroma. (I say almost as I tend to fight only infested)

I've stumbled across people saying that the hema is still an ok method of charging both of their 3s......but it WILL literally deplete health to 2 doing so.

All other frames I see no reason to have self damage anymore.....no matter how freaking funny it was to screw up a brama shot and nuke myself XD

Edited by Kalvorax
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1 hour ago, Authentic7355 said:

DE.. Please bring back Self Damage.. why you guys cant just minimalize the self damage output.. than just removed it entirely ? :(

Much of warframes lost their usabilities.. mostly for chroma.. many people are dissapointed about the self-stagger.. and the self stagger is way to much making our warframe more vulnerable to the enemies.. 

On self-damage we are learn to more carefull using aoe weapons .. but on self-stagger we are like learn to keeping away to use aoe weapon.. 

Please DE... Bring back self-damage.. because this self-stagger is impacting to the most of usability in the game.. 

Even warframes are space ninja.. lethal, and fast reaction but it doesnt mean they cant be damaged by them selfs.. :)

Edit: Well yea mirage not need a self dmg

I'm surprised it wasn't removed from the game sooner given how much abuse was going on with Vex Armour Build Chromas in a game.  Self-Damage became an artform of abuse to get the health down so that max damage output could be produced.  It took it being used excessively on Eidolon Hunts that DE decided to cut it out entirely. 

I used to find it hysterical watching squads of randoms running around trying to level a Penta, Bramma or Lenz and being completely pulverized to disintegration in the process.  

But..  As @NoLifesaid, "no"...  and that means, to me "it's not ever happening again."  Find something better to do with your time and get used to the stagger. 

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Sigh...

1. Abilities that required self-damage need to be reworked. That doesn't mean self-damage should come back.

2. That self-stagger sucks doesn't mean self-damage must return. It's a false dichotomy on a number of scales: what gets self-damage or self-stagger doesn't depend on the system in use, and self-damage and self-stagger aren't the only two options. (Could always, for example, increase damage vulnerability, or stun the player in an upper-body animation so that only the weapon's firing is affected, or - you know - remove the concept entirely and balance AoE weapons in other ways)

3. Being made more vulnerable to enemies beats dying instantly. Instant death kept plenty of players away from self-damage weapons the same way self-stagger does for other players. If there's a net gain in one system or another, it's murky and uncertain at best - as far as I can tell, at least.

4. Keep in mind that, particularly with shield gating now (possibly) mitigating self-instakills, absolutely no reversions to before self-stagger are guaranteed by DE's infinite wisdom. There's no guarantee Amps would see self-stagger removed. There's no guarantee that AoE fall-offs, or self-staggers on previously non-self-damage weapons, would return to the way they were.

5. To reiterate on point 2: If you want self-stagger gone, ask for the removal of self-stagger. Ask for what you want, be it Amps not having self-stagger to Vex Armour and the like taking self-damage into account. You're not obligated to have either self-damage or self-stagger.

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Only if friendly fire comes with it too tbh because I was really sick only seeing bramma explosions on my feet all day long.
And honestly self stagger and damage does the excats same thing... don't shoot at your feet or you get annoyed, except you can't abuse chroma anymore, and thank god for that.

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Abilities that synergised with self-damage are not a reason to ask for self-damage to return.

Blessing Trinity as the old example wasn't bad because self-damage allowed maximising it, it was that the ability was functionally unreliable unless you self-damaged and its upper boundary was excessively potent, so it was practically a different ability whether you did or did not. Blessing was reworked to make it reliable and more appropriate power grading.

Link Trinity, on the other hand, was not the fault of self-damage. Link Trinity was the fault of the game's systems having uncapped additive resistances - a problem which still exists, as we can see enemies especially in Enhancement Sorties taking absolutely 0 damage from some weapons (especially seen in all pure-elemental weapons when Eximi and Shield Osprey resistance bonuses meet Elemental Resistance modifiers). DE dropped the ball and fixed the symptom not the cause.

Chroma can still straightforwardly reach his power cap where the additional power is needed, except in high endurance where the enemy damage is entirely unsurvivable - that's by design and not a reason for self-damage returning.

Mirage was another one that sort of synergised with self-inflicting status for light levels - but that's a mechanical jank of the ability.

 

That aside, yes self-damage needs to return because it was never a real problem to begin with but the replacement is both actively harmful and functionally ineffective.

  1. Less than 10% of weapons featured ANY self-damage.
  2. Less than 4% of weapons featured self-damage with NO grace mechanism (e.g. triggering, delayed explosions, arm distance).
  3. 100% of the weapons could be used without murdering yourself unless you made an error yourself, with the arguable exception of deaths due to allied collisions which, again are not a problem caused by self-damage, they are merely the most visible symptom of game-inappropriate collision detections which still affect many other things as well.
  4. Killing yourself through misuse is an imperative motivation to improve and avoid future mishaps.
  5. Minimal Warframes could entirely bypass self-damage to make the weapons a 'risk' of becoming overpowered due to imbalancing the risk/reward relationship.

The self-staggering replacement, in contrary:

  1. Many more weapons feature self-stagger/self-knockdowns, including many that had no self-damage and/or do not have a significant AOE to require such counterbalancing features.
  2. Several weapons exist that cannot be realistically or effectively used without inflicting their self-staggering/self-knockdowns.
  3. The effect of self-staggering is a control-intrusive effect, yet does not pose significant and consistent risk to make avoiding it an imperative motivation. For example, if your explosive kills everything around you, knocking you over is functionally a non-drawback (not that it needs to, as in most cases you will not be killed during a stagger or knockdown anyway).
  4. The player will therefore just passively encounter repeated control interruptions to their gameplay flow, without an associated risk factor of lasting repercussions, which merely begets reactive and transient responses. This skews perceptions to the game design feeling faulty and unpleasant in the moments it occurs, rather than it being an overarching risk mechanic the player must proactively avoid.
  5. Staggers and knockdowns can be 100% circumvented by many Warframe abilities, and with one or several mods any Warframe can also reach 100% circumvention. Self-stagger strictly cannot be a consistent balancing mechanic while this is in place.
  6. Due to the lack of self-damage as a consistent and strong balancing factor, and homogenisation of several weapon niches at differing levels of associated risk, many radial AOE weapons have lost most of their radial AOE potency, weakening their identity.
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Warframe is a game where there are hundreds of enemies in front of you for you to kill, why would chroma need self damage purely for vex armor? Can you really not just afk for 15 seconds and get shot in those 15 seconds and get the buffs you need? Plus it's not like weapons with self stagger are the only weapons that exist oh and there is a mod to decrease stagger and knockback recovery time.

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I mean before you would just hurt yourself or kill your self instead of stagger lol. I rather the stagger then str8 up murdered in a half second cuz I shot slightly too close.

Edited by (XB1)Dex Xean
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13 hours ago, (PS4)zenhumphrey said:

Warframe is a game where there are hundreds of enemies in front of you for you to kill, why would chroma need self damage purely for vex armor?

Because some people literally only play Warframe for "BEEG NUMBEARS" and nothing else.

Even if those numbers are to gross, vomit inducing excess for the situation and are only perpetuating the need for bigger and bigger enemy HP bloat.

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On 2020-10-10 at 5:24 AM, MBaldelli said:

I'm surprised it wasn't removed from the game sooner given how much abuse was going on with Vex Armour Build Chromas in a game. 

That could've been fixed by having Vex Armour (and all abilities which worked off damage-taking) simply not trigger from self-damage (the same way Rage/Hunter Adrenaline already didn't).

As one YouTuber remarked, if a player is having trouble receiving enough damage to boost Vex Armour, they are almost certainly playing a mission which doesn't need Chroma's damage output anyway.

Removing self-inflicted Status effects from the game would have solved some problems too, but self-damage didn't need to go, and personally I still miss it.

The risk was fairly applied (in solo at least), and the self-generated hazard added an extra level of complexity to gunplay which (when I was in that mood) made it more engaging.

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1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

That could've been fixed by having Vex Armour (and all abilities which worked off damage-taking) simply not trigger from self-damage (the same way Rage/Hunter Adrenaline already didn't).

This sounds good in theory...  But you missed this: 

 

Since then DE has been extremely careful with all of the Warframe's re-works so that it doesn't remotely smell of another Vivergate.  

Further the amount of noise from self-damage deaths was more than enough for DE to reconsider it overall.   

1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

As one YouTuber remarked, if a player is having trouble receiving enough damage to boost Vex Armour, they are almost certainly playing a mission which doesn't need Chroma's damage output anyway.

It sounds good in pixels, but the reality of it is that we have an extremely impatient player base that wants to get the missions done as quickly and as effortless as possible.  And denying it (self-damage) on the whole instead of singling out one warframe's ability saves the potential lashback that could occur.  

Kill two birds with one stone, no? 

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10 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

This sounds good in theory...  But you missed this: 

No. That's not equivalent. Vivergate was a nerf to the basic Ability stats/mechanics of the 'frames in question.

Equivalent to Vivergate would be saying "Chroma gets a huge damage boost really easily through self-damaging, so Vex Armour now caps at double damage" i.e. a straight nerf to the Ability.

Saying "Chroma gets a huge damage boost really easily through self-damaging, so that boost will now come only from externally-inflicted damage" still allows Chroma to get the same boost... just not instantly by shooting his own feet.

I would be very surprised if the design intention of Vex Armour was that the player should deliberately damage themselves.

27 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

the reality of it is that we have an extremely impatient player base that wants to get the missions done as quickly and as effortless as possible. 

But those players who achieved convenience by boosting their Abilities with deliberate self-damage... are just as inconvenienced by the complete removal of self-damage as they would have been if self-damage was retained but didn't count for Abilities. So clearly that wasn't the consideration anyway.

55 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

Further the amount of noise from self-damage deaths was more than enough for DE to reconsider it overall.   

Nobody was incentivised to use self-damaging weapons, though. There were non-self-damaging AoE weapons which were more effective in combat.

(At least until the release of the -- overrated and annoying -- Kuva Bramma, though self-damage was removed so soon after that I think it must've already been on the cards.)

And Affinity-sharing meant that players could level any weapon they didn't enjoy using (be it Ogris, Daikyu, Kraken, whatever) without killing a single enemy with it.

So all those players kicking up a fuss about how much they disliked self-damaging weapons were hardly inconvenienced by their existence anyway. And how many of them are now using those weapons? I hope it's a majority of them -- 'cos otherwise they gained nothing themselves, but took away a lot of fun from those of us who liked the risk of blowing ourselves up.

Back in the day, Javlok was my self-generated-hazard-of-choice. Since its self-damage was removed, I've barely touched it... I believe Riven disposition is still a barometer of poularity? Because I noticed the Javlok's dispo went up in the last round of changes. So it seems the popularity of that weapon has declined since losing its self-damage.

Seems to me that nobody gained anything from the removal of self-damage. Except a few rabble-rousers who gained the satisfaction of seeing that they'd badgered the devs into complying with their arbitrary preferences.

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I actually enjoy the stagger system to an extent, but I'm still in favor of self-damage coming back in some form, but as an opt-in mod.  e.g., Reckless Shot: explosive weapon gains x +damage, y +radius, and self damage. 

 And yeah, some abilities and weapons would (still) need changes too.

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Lol it's kinda funny, that everyone that desire self-damage to return, imply that "Chroma is not the reason!", while we all know that this is EXACTLY the reason.
Jeez, you want the risk? Strip off all the mods and run SP. You'll get a LOT of risk XD

Excuses, excuses and more excuses in order to abuse self harm.

 

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2 hours ago, IncuBB said:

Lol it's kinda funny, that everyone that desire self-damage to return, imply that "Chroma is not the reason!", while we all know that this is EXACTLY the reason.
Jeez, you want the risk? Strip off all the mods and run SP. You'll get a LOT of risk XD

Excuses, excuses and more excuses in order to abuse self harm.

 

Other than leveling for mastery, I haven't played Chroma at all.  And self damage coming back would  not affect which frames I play the most.

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19 hours ago, IncuBB said:

Jeez, you want the risk? Strip off all the mods and run SP. You'll get a LOT of risk XD

Srsly? That's a completely different experience! That's the same fight you always have, just with less margin for error. 🙄

The risk of gibbing yourself with your own firearms meant you had to worry about not just shooting the enemy, but also if you were in a safe position to do so. It forced me to change how I moved in a firefight, and pay attention to things which normally were not even hazards.

It made the fight more complex, and thereby more engaging.

20 hours ago, IncuBB said:

everyone that desire self-damage to return, imply that "Chroma is not the reason!", while we all know that this is EXACTLY the reason.

You don't know. You assume. Feel free to check my profile and see how much I've never used Chroma. I want self-damage back because it was fun.

On 2020-10-12 at 8:50 AM, DrivaMain said:

I am sick and tired of my pets and my allies getting in the way causing the explosion to explode right on my face.

Yeah, that kinda sucks. Damage or stagger, explosive weapons impacting on allies should not detonate. It's the only hazard which is genuinely unpredictable.

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I'm sure it's unlikely to make a return now, the damage is done. I just want to reiterate why removing self damage was a bad idea in the first place:

  • This game is about having options and gameplay variety. What reason is there to get and play around with new gear if it's the same as what I already own? And there are already hundreds of weapons. (Yes, I guess a lot of people are satisfied with bigger numbers, but not all of us are.)
     
  • Self damage was about risk and reward. Want big-ass AoE, better be careful and aim properly.
     
  • There were already options and enough things to tweak for people who wanted said AoE and not have to deal with self damage:
    • Plenty of weapons with AoE didn't even damage yourself
    • Each of the weapons already had a hidden self damage multiplier in its stats, which could've been tweaked
    • Radial fall-off
    • Cautious Shot
    • Some Warframes simply don't care, e.g. Revenant and Wukong (shot yourself by accident? bonus!)
    • Modding -- you could go for e.g. fire rate and status instead of biggest numbers
       
  • It had niche uses on a few Warframes that could turn damage into an advantage. No, not only Chroma. Besides, if Chroma was ultimately the reason for its replacement, they could've just removed that interaction from that Warframe alone. (How does he get angry when shooting his feet anyway?)
     
  • Delayed triggers/distance to arming
     
  • I think the biggest problem was when shooting yourself by accident and an ally is running right in front of your gun. That could've been fixed easily, too.

 

 

Now I've found the best way to use a Bramma is running around with Atlas and shooting at my feet. And yes, it looks as stupid as it sounds. How the hell is that compelling gameplay.

 

On 2020-10-12 at 6:24 PM, IncuBB said:

Lol it's kinda funny, that everyone that desire self-damage to return, imply that "Chroma is not the reason!", while we all know that this is EXACTLY the reason.
Jeez, you want the risk? Strip off all the mods and run SP. You'll get a LOT of risk XD

Excuses, excuses and more excuses in order to abuse self harm.

Insinuating bad faith when there are clearly good reasons for self damage is just embarrassing yourself, nothing else.

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