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Telos Boltace and Conclave


Xikto

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Remove Telos boltace from conclave it is broken beyond measure using slide attacks perma stuns people giving guranteed kills and keeps people always in lifted status

 

 

 

before u stay saying no one cares about conclave etc etc (as 90% of forum) that is not the point and when something is wrong must be fixed so keep focus on the problem here, it's sth that is wrong and needs to be fixed so please!

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9 minutes ago, Xikto said:

Remove Telos boltace from conclave it is broken beyond measure using slide attacks perma stuns people giving guranteed kills and keeps people always in lifted status

 

 

 

before u stay saying no one cares about conclave etc etc (as 90% of forum) that is not the point and when something is wrong must be fixed so keep focus on the problem here, it's sth that is wrong and needs to be fixed so please!

A) There is a conclave feedback forum for this kind of stuff. 

B) That isn't the only absurdly broken item in Conclave. Conclave is extremely poorly balanced. 

C) DE has bigger things on their plate to fix than a game mode that is both DE AND God forsaken.

D) If anyone but Pablo fixes Conclave, there will be hell to pay for many I'm sure. 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

 

C) DE has bigger things on their plate to fix

Ofc ofc ignore the little things in game that feel like being punched in the .... ofc it's not like it's as easy as literally just flipping a switch on a weapon in dev!

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1 hour ago, Xikto said:

Ofc ofc ignore the little things in game that feel like being punched in the .... ofc it's not like it's as easy as literally just flipping a switch on a weapon in dev!

There are many things as equally broken as the boltace in conclave. They need to just shut the whole mode down and rebalance and revamp it. Half the stuff is unbalanced for conclave. Targeting one weapon won't solve anything. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

A) There is a conclave feedback forum for this kind of stuff. 

That subforum might as well not exist since this exactly same post has been there for almost a year and still no fix even though DE could simply remove Telos Boltace from it and call it a day.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

B) That isn't the only absurdly broken item in Conclave. Conclave is extremely poorly balanced. 

There are indeed a couple of unbalanced things, but conclave is far from "poorly balanced". I have no idea about your conclave experience, let alone about your experience with the balance in other games but when one doesn't have experience and isn't skilled at something it's a lot easier to blame the game's balance than recognizing our faults.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

C) DE has bigger things on their plate to fix than a game mode that is both DE AND God forsaken.

Based on the days when the game's code was leaked, the requested change is literally something along the lines of turning "PvPEnabled=1" into "PvPEnabled=0" for Telos Boltace which shouldn't take more than 3 minutes to the dev who used to work on it (they did it for Inaros Prime a couple of weeks after its releease despite being properly balanced for PvP anyways)

3 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

D) If anyone but Pablo fixes Conclave, there will be hell to pay for many I'm sure. 

Oddly enough, @[DE]Pablo has kind of a cool view on balance, the reason why many players tend to say that it's awful is simply because warframe's PvE is awfully unbalanced and a ton of players are used to mind numbing "mash 4 to win" gameplay without ever learning how to use the rest of the game's tools (like parkour and dodging).

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

There are many things as equally broken as the boltace in conclave.

You can be sure these aren't that many since Telos Boltace is an issue on its own while the rest of things are bugs that still require some minor player skill to be used (and luck) or require abusing some very specific interactions to be actually broken.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

They need to just shut the whole mode down and rebalance and revamp it.

They just need to do some minor fixes and bring it back at least to its state before the old blood update. No need to remove the mode for a rebalance since balance has always been a moving part of PvP games and can be fine tuned much better when there is player feedback and discussion AND devs that actually listen to it.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Half the stuff is unbalanced for conclave. Targeting one weapon won't solve anything

Naming the things you deem broken would bemuch better than a blanket statement that achieves nothing but to show that you have no idea about balance (or perhaps a very twisted one about it), and most likely don't know what's exactly making Telos Boltace so broken that feedback points directly to it.

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21 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

That subforum might as well not exist since this exactly same post has been there for almost a year and still no fix even though DE could simply remove Telos Boltace from it and call it a day.

95%+ of the things talked about on any of the forums result in no action from DE. If they plan on changing conclave, they'll do it in a full revamp. They have no reason to remove it unless it is breaking code elsewhere in the game (if they were able to identify it as the cause). Additionally, removing a weapon isn't their thing. If they don't like something, they nerf or change it. 

 

21 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

There are indeed a couple of unbalanced things, but conclave is far from "poorly balanced". I have no idea about your conclave experience, let alone about your experience with the balance in other games but when one doesn't have experience and isn't skilled at something it's a lot easier to blame the game's balance than recognizing our faults.

Do you honestly find "Run these three different loadout specific or die" balanced? 

21 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Based on the days when the game's code was leaked, the requested change is literally something along the lines of turning "PvPEnabled=1" into "PvPEnabled=0" for Telos Boltace which shouldn't take more than 3 minutes to the dev who used to work on it (they did it for Inaros Prime a couple of weeks after its releease despite being properly balanced for PvP anyways)

That's assuming that code isn't touching on other parts of the game. DE has a poor foundation for code. That's why when they fix bugs, 100 more show up. Even the smallest code change can create bugs in a completely unrelated code segment. We see that happen often. 

 

21 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

when there is player feedback and discussion AND devs that actually listen to it.

Hard agree. Lots of good feedback in the forums, but 2 or 3 things usually happens. 

A) They don't read it. 

B) They read it but their code literally won't allow for it. 

C) They read it but are so caught up in doing what they want to do that they never get around to it. 

These are intrinsic errors of DE than many refuse to see. I'm glad you see them. 

21 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Naming the things you deem broken would bemuch better than a blanket statement that achieves nothing but to show that you have no idea about balance (or perhaps a very twisted one about it), and most likely don't know what's exactly making Telos Boltace so broken that feedback points directly to it.

Refer to my previous statement about "Run three loadouts or die". 

Also... *Looks at entire roster of frames that have abilities that aren't edited to fit a PvP environment where damage wins out* *Looks at weapons like Wolf Sledge and Telos Boltace* 

Conclave needs to have abilities AND weapons work differently than PvE because it's a different mode: a mode that should allow for many different playstyles without one outshining the rest. A good piece of feedback (instead of remove X thing) is to say "Instead of Telos Boltace doing X, maybe have it do Y and here's why....". Saying "Just remove it" won't get you anywhere. 

Honestly, don't insult my sense of balance without knowing how much I actually know. 

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37 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

95%+ of the things talked about on any of the forums result in no action from DE.

There are far too many players for DE to listen to 100% of the feedback provided, though. And then you have also feedback that tries to push them on opposite directions and all of it while also working on their own ideas, so of course they have to make decisions to keep the game alive and can't simply listen to 100% of the feedback, specially when it includes things not worth for the game such as including other games as minigames in warframe (and even then some still manage to get through since that's basically Lunaro's history)

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

If they plan on changing conclave, they'll do it in a full revamp.

Got some proof to back this up? Have they said anything about it? Or is it just another baseless claim? Citation would be much appreciated.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

They have no reason to remove it unless it is breaking code elsewhere in the game (if they were able to identify it as the cause).

Do you even have your own stance on the matter? Or were you just trying to jump into the "remove conclave" bandwagon for some easy upvotes? All i see here is nothing but a big backpedal from your previous post where you stated that "They need to just shut the whole mode down [...]" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Do you honestly find "Run these three different loadout specific or die" balanced? 

On one hand you still refuse to name what's unbalanced; on the other, i can run around with Excalibur + braton + skana, all of them totally unmodded, and still compete against most players (or straight up beat them anyways) even if they try to abuse bugs, which would be impossible in a poorly balanced environment.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

That's assuming that code isn't touching on other parts of the game. DE has a poor foundation for code. That's why when they fix bugs, 100 more show up. Even the smallest code change can create bugs in a completely unrelated code segment. We see that happen often. 

This further proves you have no idea about conclave. A brief a look at the conclave arsenal should be enough to figure out some things such as conclave balance not affecting PvE's lack of it and going as far to tweak warframe powers to make them fit for PvP, something specially noticeable on powers that would be either useless or overpowered in a PvP environment with their PvE mechanics (Desecrate, Silence, Mind Control, Chaos, and even some passives come to mind).

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

DE has a poor foundation for code. That's why when they fix bugs, 100 more show up. Even the smallest code change can create bugs in a completely unrelated code segment. We see that happen often. 

Yet conclave is contained within its own bubble made in a way that it can be affected by PvE changes without PvE being affected by changes to it, as explained above. You can be sure that removing Telos Boltace or nerfing literally any weapon in conclave would have no effect out of it. Just like Inaros Prime wasn't removed from PvE when removed from conclave.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Hard agree. Lots of good feedback in the forums, but 2 or 3 things usually happens. 

A) They don't read it. 

B) They read it but their code literally won't allow for it. 

C) They read it but are so caught up in doing what they want to do that they never get around to it. 

These are intrinsic errors of DE than many refuse to see. I'm glad you see them. 

It's kind of a glaring issue, though. One that has become more noticeable over time with the community's growth and specially for those of us who have been here nearly from the start.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Refer to my previous statement about "Run three loadouts or die". 

Also... *Looks at entire roster of frames that have abilities that aren't edited to fit a PvP environment where damage wins out* *Looks at weapons like Wolf Sledge and Telos Boltace* 

Yet you still name no frames nor the abilities you see as unbalanced, while the 2 weapons named are also commonly complained about, one of them is the focus of this thread while the other still gets countered by basic stuff like staying out of its range (which is huge on toss), moving out of its way to break line of sight with the enemy either during the charge or its flight time in order to make its toss useless.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Conclave needs to have abilities AND weapons work differently than PvE because it's a different mode: a mode that should allow for many different playstyles without one outshining the rest.

Huh, it already does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

A good piece of feedback (instead of remove X thing) is to say "Instead of Telos Boltace doing X, maybe have it do Y and here's why....". Saying "Just remove it" won't get you anywhere. 

Feedback has been pointed to either remove it or bring it back to its pre-old blood state when it was mostly a minor annoyance than a weapon able to entirely remove enemies from combat even without killing them. Removing it would also be a lot simpler than getting it back to such state (literally turning a 1 into a 0 versus making the code to remove only its gimmick, like they did for TB's passive, or get it to have a completely different effect). There are other tonfas in pvp to choose from if that's the huge concern.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Honestly, don't insult my sense of balance without knowing how much I actually know. 

I'm sure i explained why i have my doubts, and your last post didn't do anything about it, tbh.

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2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Got some proof to back this up? Have they said anything about it? Or is it just another baseless claim? Citation would be much appreciated.

It's not baseless. Look at the history. 

Gas city. Revamp. Cetus. Revamp. Corpus ship. Revamp. Archwing. Soon to be revamp. The list goes on. 

They don't make small changes like removing a single item from a mode. They'll revamp conclave in its entirety if they are gonna change anything. 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

"They need to just shut the whole mode down [...]" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes. For a revamp 

 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Do you even have your own stance on the matter? Or were you just trying to jump into the "remove conclave" bandwagon for some easy upvotes

History of DE supports my statement. Name a time where they've removed a weapon from conclave permanently unless it was code breaking. 

 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

they try to abuse bugs, which would be impossible in a poorly balanced environment.

Not true. Spellbreak is poorly balanced right now, but you can still beat people in certain disadvantageous match ups if you play well enough. A poorly balanced game does not mean it's impossible to win in all disadvantageous match ups. 

 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

either useless or overpowered in a PvP environment with their PvE mechanics (Desecrate, Silence, Mind Control, Chaos, and even some passives come to mind).

Exactly my point. Make Nyx stuff do different things. Make Desecrate do something different. Nyx is essentially out two abilities and a passive. That's exactly my point: Edit each and every frame so that their abilities are usable or give them different abilities for conclave. A revamp is required to rebalance all that is wrong with conclave. 

 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Yet conclave is contained within its own bubble made in a way that it can be affected by PvE changes without PvE being affected by changes to it, as explained above.

We don't know that because they don't make changes to conclave. XD All we have to go on is the rest of the game: the game where a coding change in fishing makes archwing bug out. 

 

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Huh, it already does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You literally gave examples that say otherwise. Nyx, Nekros, etc do not have abilities done right for conclave. I can't actually mind control anyone.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

It's not baseless. Look at the history. 

Gas city. Revamp. Cetus. Revamp. Corpus ship. Revamp. Archwing. Soon to be revamp. The list goes on. 

 

Quote

Yes. For a revamp 

On one hand, none of those was shut down for their revamp, while on the other, shutting down content doesn't necessarily mean revamping it (you can take pvp dark sectors for example of it). That's what makes your entire claim baseless.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

History of DE supports my statement. Name a time where they've removed a weapon from conclave permanently unless it was code breaking

Do you realize we're talking about removing the weapon from PvP and not from the entire game? There are plenty of examples of gear being removed from conclave even though it isn't breaking the code, which includes:

• Zylok (a weapon conveniently named "ConclaveLeverPistol" in the code) being removed for a couple of days in order to be balanced for it on its initial release (relay reconstruction event iirc).

• Zaws being disabled from conclave around a year after their introduction for breaking the game's balance and their modular nature making them a real mess or totally impossible to be properly balanced.

•Kuva Bramma removed from conclave since it had huge explosions and dealt PvE damage on it.

• Inaros Prime, removed from conclave a couple of weeks after its release despite being nearly a carbon copy of its non prime counterpart but with an additional 0.05 sprint speed buff.

• Karyst prime being removed from conclave even though it wasn't exactly too strong and could have been rebalanced simply by reducing its PvE to PvP multiplier on toxin damage to put it online with the rest of toxin weapons.

I can go further back in time and tell you about how back then Arcane Helmets could be used in conclave but got removed from it for being an unfair advantage favoring old players over new ones (conclave rework was after their removal from alerts) or even how several PvE mods that could also be used got removed from it for being straight upgrades to our gear (Rush, Maglev, Hush, Suppress come to mind).

And none of those changes affected PvE in any way, so what's your point?

4 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Not true. Spellbreak is poorly balanced right now, but you can still beat people in certain disadvantageous match ups if you play well enough. A poorly balanced game does not mean it's impossible to win in all disadvantageous match ups

So? That doesn't change that conclave balance was very well tuned by @[DE]joebuck back in the day and, even though some PvE changes have made it worsen a bit, it's still on a very good spot barring some very specific weapons and easy to abuse bugs.

Quote

Exactly my point. Make Nyx stuff do different things. Make Desecrate do something different. Nyx is essentially out two abilities and a passive. That's exactly my point: Edit each and every frame so that their abilities are usable or give them different abilities for conclave. A revamp is required to rebalance all that is wrong with conclave.

What point?

Nyx already fulfills her gimmick pretty well in conclave since her kit lets the player make sure to have the first hit on an enemy (Mind Control), Strip all target's defenses temporarily (Psychic Bolts), become temporarily immune to a group of enemies (Chaos), and turn back damage on anyone trying to kill her while stationary in exchange for a brief recovery period after dealing said damage (Absorb), all of it while being highly mobile (1.0 mobility on normal and 0.9 on prime) and relatively squishy (prime is a bit tankier than normal)

Desecrate already does have a different effect since it pops an HP orb from enemy corpses AND reveals desecrated targets through walls for a brief time after their respawn. Same applies for Terrify, which halves enemy damage output; and Shadows of the Dead which enables the Nekros (and his entire team) to respawn bypassing the timer for a decently long time.

So the thing you're calling "revamp" is doing exactly what DE did years ago and would be better done to add newer frames instead of tweaking the already available ones.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

We don't know that because they don't make changes to conclave. XD All we have to go on is the rest of the game: the game where a coding change in fishing makes archwing bug out.

Does warframe history exist only when you can (mis)use it to make your point? I had already given a few points to it in previous posts, if the warframe history you love citing so much is still unclear, feel free to re-read the examples listed above on this one.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

You lliterally gave examples that say otherwise. Nyx, Nekros, etc do not have abilities done right for conclave. I can't actually mind control anyone.

The examples i gave were exactly frames that do the same as in PvE but have also been rebalanced for PvP. Feel free to read again the explanation above in this same message if the reason why i named them wasn't clear enough

Feel free to use that to make yourself an idea about why i still think you don't know much about how does conclave work, let alone of its balance or how it has been developed over the years after the rework other than perhaps following what most players on forums/reddit/youtube/social media in general tend to parrot over and over again.

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35 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

forums/reddit/youtube/social media in general tend to parrot over and over again.

Actually, I despise YouTube. It creates youtube bible thumpers which control the "meta". It's annoying. People think they know it all because X YouTuber said it. The only social place I use for warframe is the forums and I don't internalize most what I read. 

You educated me on a couple things today. I appreciate it. 

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On 2020-10-10 at 11:30 AM, Xikto said:

Remove Telos boltace from conclave it is broken beyond measure using slide attacks perma stuns people giving guranteed kills and keeps people always in lifted status

The weapon is one of the worst offenders right now, and has been for almost a year. I'd say this is probably one of the best proofs that these devs don't play their own game. It's so clearly broken, and it boggles the mind that they still haven't done anything about it.

 

Quote

before u stay saying no one cares about conclave etc etc (as 90% of forum) that is not the point and when something is wrong must be fixed so keep focus on the problem here, it's sth that is wrong and needs to be fixed so please!

Exactly. Little things add up and can make it an overall S#&$ty experience. Instead of focussing on pushing out new stuff -- which no one really needs -- at a frantic pace it'd be a good idea to check at least once every few months what causes people to have a bad experience.

 

 

And mind you, these things are only problematic because they made changes to PvE that had side effects in PvP. Unlike in PvE, if the modes were better separated, Conclave could just exist and do fine, without having them to shovel new crap out the door at this unsustainable pace.

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1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

The weapon is one of the worst offenders right now, and has been for almost a year. I'd say this is probably one of the best proofs that these devs don't play their own game. It's so clearly broken, and it boggles the mind that they still haven't done anything about it.

 

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Exactly. Little things add up and can make it an overall S#&$ty experience. Instead of focussing on pushing out new stuff -- which no one really needs -- at a frantic pace it'd be a good idea to check at least once every few months what causes people to have a bad experience.

Yea, and among the dev team heads' lack of ability to communicate among themselves without Rebecca, there is going to be no headway towards their realisation of needing to stop releasing content for a couple months at the rate they do. During that time, they need to PLAY their OWN GAME, because we KNOW they don't. If they did, more than 80% of the bugs would be known and fixed. It's absurd. How do you make compelling content better if you don't experience the content? EXACTLY: You don't. That's why the game is suffering. 

Side note: The head guys might not be on the best of terms. If that's the case, it would give another reason as to why their game is suffering. They need to learn to communicate. 

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