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Do we really need Stamina?


Steel_Rook

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Yes, I realise this is a somewhat controversial thing to ask, but please hear me out. I'm also aware that this is a somewhat loose question, so let me explain. When I use the term "Stamina," I'm referring to a resource limitation on our movement abilities in the form of a continuously-depleting bar. Currently, only three things that I can think of have Stamina in any fashion - Necramechs, Railjack, Operators. I want to question whether the Stamina mechanic of each serves a real purpose, whether it can be removed entirely or reduced in scope or altered in some fashion without offering power creep.

As a note of clarification, I'm looking at the issue from a gameplay perspective only. How the existing mechanics or my proposed changes are justified in lore is not something I intend to get into. Lore can always cover for mechanics after the fact if changes are seen as necessary. I'm also going to use the term "Stamina" as a broad descriptor as stated above, even if the meter itself is called something else in each specific instance. It's just simpler to write that way.

 

Necramechs:

Necramechs are heavily limited by Stamina. Their Sprint, their Headrush and their Hover all draw on the same Stamina bar. To my mind, this is excessively onerous and largely pointless. It doesn't really serve to limit Necramech mobility because their sheer size does this already, but it does serve to limit their ability to travel long-distance across Free Roam maps, which is the only place where they're useful. I don't see this as a benefit. To solve this, I would recommend the following changes:

Remove Sprint entirely. The movement speed difference between walking and sprinting in a Necramech is academic. Simply turn our default Walk into a Sprint all of the time for no cost. Nothing of substance will change. If needed (and I'm not sure that it is), slow us down to current Walk speed when firing or charging our weapons. Necramechs are already slow enough, they don't need two crawler gears.

Make Headrush into our new Sprint. Simply put, let me trigger headrush the same way I currently trigger Sprint. That is to say (when using the Dodge/Sprint key), let me tap sprint for a short-hop Headrush, let me hold Sprint for a full-on continuous headrush. Remove all Stamina costs from that entirely. It's already heavily limited by the Necramech's size and turning radius. There's no situation where being able to headrush infinitely actually gives players an unfair or undesired advantage. All that does is make it viable to travel across Free Roam maps, which is a good thing.

I'm not sure about Hover. My gut tells me that we can just remove the Stamina cost of Hover and leave it as it is. However, DE seem deathly afraid of letting us fly uninterrupted (hence all the Archwing-disabling, ability ignoring homing missiles), so I'm willing to concede this point. Maybe leave Hover with its current Stamina cost. After all, our Aimglide and Wall Latch are themselves limited by invisible Stamina (i.e. there's a bar that depletes as we use those, we just don't see it), so I'm willing to accept this as a counterpart.

Basically, let Necramechs sprint and travel without restriction, because they're already being restricted in other, much more natural ways. Maybe keep the limit on Hovering so players can't perpetually stay out of range of melee attacks, if that's seen as important.

 

Railjack:

I'm not sure why Railjack has a Stamina bar at all. Maybe DE were going for an "Afterburner" mechanic, but I don't think the mechanics we have do this. All the Stamina bar accomplishes is making the Railjack feel sluggish and unresponsive while making long-distance travel in those giant maps a pain. DE recognise this, which is why they gave us the Cruising Speed mod, but that's at best a bandaid solution. The proper solution in my opinion would be to remove Stamina altogether and rework core movement mechanics. What follows may feel "wrong," but please hear me out.

Basic Flight. Not a lot to say here. Increase Flight speed to current Boost speed. Basic Flight is sluggish even with speed Avionics.

Boost. Increase Boost speed to current Drift speed. Remove Stamina cost entirely but restrict Boost to just going forward. The Railjack's inherent turning radius will handle the rest. The idea here is to bring Boost closer to Necramech Headrush and Gauss Magrush mechanics. That is to say, turn it into an actual long-distance movement option, rather than a "simply move faster" option. With basic movement sped up to previous Boost speeds, that alone should be good enough.

Vector. Currently, Drift has two components. Firstly, it speeds up the Railjack. Secondly, it causes the Railjack to do a large (1-2KM) shunt fortward when Drift ends, with distance scaled to time spent Drifting (I believe). Replace the forward Vector Manoeuvre with with shunt. Put this on a 3-second cooldown. Ostensibly, this gives Railjack its own version of Archwing Blink. Vector itself can remain unaltered for sideways and backwards dodges, or replaced with the shunt in all directions. I'm largely ambivalent.

Drift. Remove Drift entirely. We've already moved both its speed and its shunt elsewhere, thus it's not needed.

Basically, speed up the Railjack naturally, allow it to trade forward speed for lack of control and let it Blink. Move it closer to Archwing controls and let it travel unrestricted.

 

Operator:

My Operator suggestions are the most likely to be controversial, if only because Operators themselves are such an old system that people are used to how they work. Luckily, I have relatively few suggestions here since I'm sticking purely to Stamina and not trying to talk about Operator Energy in general. My issue with Operator "Stamina" is that Operator mobility draws on the same resource as pretty much all of their other abilities. Operators, thus, end up reducing their own defences if they want to be mobile. I feel this is an unfun trade, as it means we can either survive or travel, but not both at the same time. Since Warframe is considered "fast-paced," I believe both should be viable at the same time. However, because Operator Blink Void Dash is so powerful on its own, I feel that still needs some limitations. As such...

Void Dash. My proposal here is simple - remove the energy cost off of Operator Void Dash and replace it with a coold... WAIT! Hear me out! Yes, I'm going to say the word "cooldown," but it's not what you think! A standard Operator energy pool of 100 which fully recharges in 6 seconds. Thus, an Operator can support 4 back-to-back Void Dashes before energy depletes and needs to recover over 6 seconds. We can retain the same mechanic by allowing Operators to build up a pool of 4 Dashes, with one Dash refreshing every 1.5 seconds. This means an Operator can Dash up to 4 times in rapid succession, but would then need to wait before dashing more - 2 seconds for an additional one dash, 6 seconds for all 4.

Zenurik. Void Siphon and Void Flow increase Operator Energy and Energy Regeneration, allowing Operators to dash more often. Under my proposed system, these abilities could further buff Void Dash as well. Void Siphon could increase the maximum pool of Void Dashes up to 6, while Void Flow could reduce refresh time down to 1 second. I'm not sure how this compares to existing buffs (it's likely less), but the numbers can change to match if my quick math is faulty.

Basically, I want my Operator to be able to Void Dash without worrying about dropping out of Void Mode and dying. Moving Void Dashes off to their own separate resource similar to Blink would solve that. After all, Void Amps have their own separate energy pool, allowing Operators to attack without compromising their defences.

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2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Currently, only three things that I can think of have Stamina in any fashion - Necramechs, Railjack, Operators.

There is no Actual Stamina in game currently and you kinda got confused what those Bars are...

In the case of Necramech and Railjacks, extra performance usually draws more energy than their reactor can produce, thus requiring them to have a reserve energy source for situations that require them to put more effort/thrust into, thats why they have an Energy bar that limits for how long you can use the Necramech and the Railjack's Dash/Booster.
Consider as an example real cars using Nitro, its an external additional energy source for the engine with an extra kick, still limited in the amount and requires replenishing after use.

In the case of Operators, they siphon their energy straight from the void tho the amount drawn is limited, acting in the same manner as the Necramech and Railjack's reactors that has a limited production, Operators cant use more than they produce which is why their energy bars drains when using abilities. As you unlock Focus abilities that improve max energy and regeneration, its like the Operators have improved their ability to siphon and store that energy from the void.

I personally am not in favor of the removal of those bars, in the case of Necramech and Railjack there are Mods/Avionics that give them increased storage cap and regeneration wile Operators benefit from Focus skills tho i would be in favor of [DE] further improving on this, perhaps adding more Skills to each focus school that adds on a bit further and Arcanes that affected/proced energy regen in certain conditions.

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4 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

There is no Actual Stamina in game currently and you kinda got confused what those Bars are...

At the risk of sounding rude, you missed my point entirely. I'll see about editing the OP to clarify, but my argument here is entirely mechanical. I'm not at all broaching narrative, conceptual or realistic subjects. I'm using the term "Stamina" as the name of a mechanic, which is why I took the time to define it in the opening preamble, though that can use a bit more length. How the game's lore models this is irrelevant, because it's besides the point entirely. What I question is what benefit these bring to our moment-to-moment experience of the game's core gameplay loop and why they're necessary in the first place. Specifically - why they're necessary when this exact mechanic used to exist for Warframes once upon a time but was subsequently scrapped.

 

7 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I personally am not in favor of the removal of those bars, in the case of Necramech and Railjack there are Mods/Avionics that give them increased storage cap and regeneration wile Operators benefit from Focus skills tho i would be in favor of [DE] further improving on this, perhaps adding more Skills to each focus school that adds on a bit further and Arcanes that affected/proced energy regen in certain conditions.

While that's fair enough, I'd like to press you on your reasoning, if I may. For what reason are you in favour of these mechanics? What, in your opinion, do they add to the experience? In fact, let me try to be slightly more specific. What is the benefit to limiting the amount of time a Necramech can Headrush in a single stretch? What's gained from this limitation, and how does it offset what's being lost? Because there is a tangible loss here. Limited Necramech Stamina (I'll keep using that term, know that I mean it as a game mechanic) removes a Necramech's ability to traverse large open spaces seamlessly. Not "quickly" - "seamlessly." My Necramech is not going to be faster than my Archwing than I can expect my K-Drive to be. However, my K-Drive does not require me to stop every 400 meters and idle for 10 seconds before I can travel again. Necramechs do - and that's with the additional Stamina-related mods all installed. Without them, that distance drops to about 100-200 meters.

Why is this better than being able to Headrush directly to my destination without stopping? It's not an automated process either way, as terrain still needs to be navigated. I need to jump gaps, turn to avoid obstacles, plan a path around major obstructions (cliffs and lakes and such). Assuming we're ever able to use Necramechs indoors, this more natural limitation becomes even more pronounced. Why is Stamina needed as a limiter on top of everything else? For Railjack and Operators I can somewhat understand it, but for Necramechs I simply don't. What is the issue that this system is addressing? What would be the harm in removing it entirely? Having Necramech Slipstream and Necramech Thrusters can't be the sole reason for this system, because that's a tautological justification. Stamina exists in order to justify Stamina mods, which exist in order to mitigate Stamina. OK, but what if neither existed? The justification remains internally consistent AND we get improved mobility. Why is that a bad thing?

It's worth bringing up Railjack and Operators, as well. I understand why Stamina exists for Railjack. If it didn't exist, then there would be no reason NOT to Boost all of the time. Warframes already have this issue, where there's no real reason NOT to just turn on Sprint and never turn it off. I'd argue that just means Sprint needs to become inherent and some new self-limiting mechanic introduced to replace it (such as an inherent version of Gauss' Mag Rush, which limits mobility by wide turning radius and needs no other offset). This is why I proposed changes to Railjack Stamina by introducing a "travel mode" with greater speed and wider turning radius while also proposing the overall speed increase of base flight. Archwings already do pretty much the same thing between their Hover and Boost versions. Why would you ever NOT boost in an Archwing? Because a boosting Archwing is harder to control in tight quarters and near the ground. The same could apply to Railjack. We could Fly in combat and when manoeuvring, but Boost when travelling between points of interest in order to cut down on the dead air of holding down W with one hand and propping up our chins with the other.

A similar argument applies to Operators. Operator Stamina, AKA the reason Void Dash costs Operator Energy, exists to limit our ability to cross entire maps in seconds via stacked Void Dashes. It's the same reason the Itzal lost its Blink and regained it on a cooldown along with all other Warframes. Excessive, instant-travel mobility is seen as disruptive, thus Operators can't be allowed to stack Void Dashes too much. Fair enough, but this implementation has additional consequences because it draws on the same energy as combat abilities. Consequently, we as players are encouraged to NOT use our mobility in combat if we can avoid it, and only use our mobility outside of combat where Energy has no other uses. I don't consider this to be good design because it limits a genuinely fun mechanic for insufficiently compelling reasons. My proposition retains most of the same limitation, but removes an opportunity cost allowing players to both fight AND dash. This is precedented, as the same thing happened with Amps. And even if we tautologically explained Void Dash energy costs as existing to justify Zenurik, then this is something I've accounted for. I specifically proposed adding additional effects to the Zenurik waybounds which would improve Void Dashing within the framework I proposed.

All of this is to say that I feel a compelling case can be made for removing Stamina mechanics while either retaining the balance reasons they were meant to serve or altering mechanics to make those original balance considerations inapplicable. I understand that you like the existing system, but I feel it's worth going into WHY you feel that way - not as a means of changing your mind, but simply as a means of having a discussion that's more than merely duelling anecdotes.

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1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

In the case of Necramech and Railjacks, extra performance usually draws more energy than their reactor can produce, thus requiring them to have a reserve energy source for situations that require them to put more effort/thrust into, thats why they have an Energy bar that limits for how long you can use the Necramech and the Railjack's Dash/Booster.

Your fanfiction about how space magic robots work have nothing to with game mechanics.

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I can only speak to a relatively limited experience with necramechs as I haven't built my own yet, but I see the argument there from my time in the intro quest.

The thing necramechs and railjacks really need, though, are actually changes in the options menu.

Separate toggle sprint options for different movement types, PLEASE, DE. And a further option for those sprint types that have stamina to auto-toggle off when stamina is depleted. Needing to manually toggle railjack boost/necramechs sprint off before the bar can start recharging feels really bad.

 

The mechs could probably stand to be better at long distance traversal in general though, yeah.

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I said I'd edit the OP then completely forgot. Oops! Let me go fix that...

 

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

Only for the hover and dash imo, sprinting should take none.

I'd like to extend my question to you as well, though. Why do you feel Stamina is a good idea for Necramech Dash/Headrush? That's not a challenge - I'm legitimately curious. I understand the need for Stamina for Hover, as I said in the OP. But why for Headrush? What do you feel that limited Stamina for that actually limits? Honest question here.

 

5 hours ago, Lanaestra said:

Separate toggle sprint options for different movement types, PLEASE, DE. And a further option for those sprint types that have stamina to auto-toggle off when stamina is depleted. Needing to manually toggle railjack boost/necramechs sprint off before the bar can start recharging feels really bad.

A bit off-topic, but I certainly agree on all counts. Definitely on auto-disabling sprint when Stamina runs out. I've had FAR too many instances of forgetting to turn it off and discovering this only when I needed it. There's no benefit to leaving Sprint/Dash/Boost/etc. on when you're out of Stamina because Stamina can't recover while it's on. Maybe putting a separate Toggle Sprint option in each "vehicle's" Controls menu would be a good idea.

 

5 hours ago, Lanaestra said:

The mechs could probably stand to be better at long distance traversal in general though, yeah.

That's what got me to post the thread in the first place, yes. As I said before - I don't expect my Necramech to be FAST in covering long distance. Archwings will always be faster than any other vehicle. However, I do wish for my Necramech to at least be able to travel continuously without having to stop and rest every so often. Our Archwings lack any sort of Stamina, after all, and I don't believe their ability to boost continuously really harms any of their other mechanics.

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6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

But why for Headrush? What do you feel that limited Stamina for that actually limits? Honest question here.

Honest answers incoming.

Because functionally it would be considerable as similar to Gauss' 1 and it would be more consistent overall, plus most players are unlikely to dash in a Necramech for too long anyway, especially with how they seem to...not play nice with uneven ground in my experience.

I'd also like to see them speed it up as a trade off for the limited time and allow it to chain into a jump and hover for heavier but meaningful mobility to counteract the limited nature of the moves. These were the precursors to Warframes, it would make sense for them to have to be controlled in a different way in my eyes.

Or to just be plain blunt, I'm a mecha nerd and having a limited resource on boost functions is kind of second nature in my eyes, and usually the boost functions are powerful enough to warrant it, which is something I'd like to see.

Overall this is mostly preference and expectation on my end, but unlike the Warframes which rely on their mobility and need the option on a more constant basis I would like Necramechs to be more distinct from them by making their Mobility have restrictions in exchange for better durability and power. Not the most eloquent way to explain my stance, but I tried, and likely failed.

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3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Overall this is mostly preference and expectation on my end, but unlike the Warframes which rely on their mobility and need the option on a more constant basis I would like Necramechs to be more distinct from them by making their Mobility have restrictions in exchange for better durability and power. Not the most eloquent way to explain my stance, but I tried, and likely failed.

I think the reason I keep bringing this up, though, is that this limitation manifests in a really not fun way. When using a Necramech outdoors, I tend to use it for travel. It does well enough on uneven ground as long as you avoid actual obstacles, but it only travels for about 400 meters before running out of Steam (with all the movement mods that currently exist). That's OK-ish on Deimos since it's such a small map, but it's insufficient even on the Plains of Eidolon, let alone Orb Vallis. Objectives commonly spawn at 600-900 meters away, which requires a stop in the middle of travel. I COULD travel the entire distance in one uninterrupted Headrush (well, including jumps and hovers), but I gas half-way through. It's not a challenge because there's nothing I can do in the moment to extend my range - I rely on the bar. There's no danger because I tap out in the middle of nowhere with no enemies in sight. All this does is inject about 10 seconds of nothing before I can headrush again.

This isn't so much criticism, as I'm trying to resolve my own impression of the issue. I can cover long distances in my Archwing using simple Boost and that works fine. It seems reasonable to me that I should be able to cover distance in a similar fashion with a Mech, albeit having to mind terrain. I guess what I can't fully understand is if you consider these brief "pit stops" where I wait for Stamina to recover before I can travel the rest of the way to be positive for the experience or if I'm reading your post wrong. Because it doesn't seem like you do, but I'm not sure how else to read it. To me, it just seems more reasonable to allow Mechs to Headrush as far as they want and use terrain as a limiter, rather than a bar.

 

Oh, and incidentally? I'm personally kind of disappointed that Gauss' Mag Rush costs energy to sustain, for a similar reason. Archwings are faster than Magrush, but Magrush is more fun. Except I can't really use it to travel because I run out of energy part-way through. That's a bit of a separate issue since Mag Rush has uses in combat where Headrush generally... Doesn't, but I'm not going to try and argue Gauss at this point.

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16 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I guess what I can't fully understand is if you consider these brief "pit stops" where I wait for Stamina to recover before I can travel the rest of the way to be positive for the experience or if I'm reading your post wrong. Because it doesn't seem like you do, but I'm not sure how else to read it. To me, it just seems more reasonable to allow Mechs to Headrush as far as they want and use terrain as a limiter, rather than a bar.

I don't consider it positive, but I think there could be potential for it to be less obtrusive if worked out properly and actually contribute to engagement with a different playstyle.

But like I said above concerning the mech nerd quote, I've played a lot of Armored Core so having to manage a boost/fuel/stamina meter is something that I'm used to and somewhat expect due to muscle memory, it is mostly preference, my personal favorite being 4 and For Answer with their Quick Boost system which allowed multi-directional quick bursts of speed for evasion purposes. There was also in Armored Core the Over Boost functions which had super high speed thrusters that ate energy very quickly for maximum forward momentum.

It wouldn't need to be like that for me to be satisfied though, after all the current dash wouldn't be broken if it had no stamina requirements at all, but I'd like to see them lean more into the "Mecha" themes rather than make them more similar to Warframes.

...Sorry about the rambling, I really like the Armored Core series and wish From Software would stop making Souls games for 5 minutes and make a proper AC6. If you don't know the series (not sure if I've talked about it before with you or not) I'd suggest looking up a few videos of both the older games and 4/For Answer to get where I'm coming from a bit better, it is a bit hard to explain through text alone. I'll see if I can find a video showcasing what I'm talking about, but it is an old niche series so that might take a while.

Edit: Here's an 11 year old video showcasing what I mean with the quick boost system, took me less time to find than I thought. It's very...2009 in quality but it shows the bare bones of it at least.

Spoiler

 

 

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Just some quick thoughts here from me:

Necramechs: I agree fully, Headrush does nothing and there is no real reason for all of the mobility options to run off the same resource. Hover certainly deserves such a limitation, but I can't see a reason why sprinting and rushing should. Perhaps if the effectiveness of Headrush was increased and ran off a separate pool from Hover, it could be workable.

Railjack: I partially agree with your points. I think that the Stamina mechanic is not too limiting, but the system as a whole could benefit from a faster recharge of the resource, and to use the Drift as a combat maneuver rather than a general travel mechanism. As a whole, however, I believe that the current options perform their purposes.

Operators: I very much like your idea for the Void Dash, and hope that it might be considered as part of a wider Operator rework (maybe we'll finally get a real set of 4 abilities and move Void Blast off the melee button). I honestly wouldn't mind the Operator gameplay removing the energy bar altogether and becoming entirely cooldown-based.

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9 hours ago, Aldain said:

It wouldn't need to be like that for me to be satisfied though, after all the current dash wouldn't be broken if it had no stamina requirements at all, but I'd like to see them lean more into the "Mecha" themes rather than make them more similar to Warframes.

Fair enough, I suppose. Thanks for the explanation. Seems like I've grown more mechanics-oriented and less theme-oriented as time goes on, myself :)

 

8 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Necramechs: I agree fully, Headrush does nothing and there is no real reason for all of the mobility options to run off the same resource. Hover certainly deserves such a limitation, but I can't see a reason why sprinting and rushing should. Perhaps if the effectiveness of Headrush was increased and ran off a separate pool from Hover, it could be workable.

What about the idea of removing the Necramech Sprint separation entirely and leaving just Walk at the speed of Sprint?  That's not a disagreement, so much as I'm just curious. It just seems like right now, there's almost no difference in movement speed between Walk and Sprint - certainly not enough for one to cost a resource. Sure, it avoids the Warframe issue of "there's no point in not Sprinting" but it replaces it with the equally odd issue of "there's no point in not Walking." Headrush is a good idea in that it allows us to travel long distances. What does Sprint do?

 

8 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Railjack: I partially agree with your points. I think that the Stamina mechanic is not too limiting, but the system as a whole could benefit from a faster recharge of the resource, and to use the Drift as a combat maneuver rather than a general travel mechanism. As a whole, however, I believe that the current options perform their purposes.

Fair point. As I said earlier, this whole thing started with Necramechs, but I decided to expand it afterwards so Railjack and Operators are inherently less compelling. With that said, I think you put your finger on the issue right there. Drift is more often used for travel than combat mobility, despite clearly being designed for the latter. This is why I proposed moving its functionality - the very rapid long-range shunt - off to Vector instead. It's also why I proposed redesigning Boost into a Headrush/Magrush style forward boost. Like Aladin above, I'm somewhat working off the designs of old space shooters here, where Afterburner typically stiffened controls for its duration.

In general, I tend to see "travel" and "manoeuvrability" as two separate tools used for two different tasks. Manoeuvrability is useful to get around in combat and benefits from better, more precise controls. Travel is useful for getting to places out of combat in order to avoid us sitting on our hands for too long, and can usually be balanced out by stiff controls. Hence my proposed design.

 

9 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Operators: I very much like your idea for the Void Dash, and hope that it might be considered as part of a wider Operator rework (maybe we'll finally get a real set of 4 abilities and move Void Blast off the melee button). I honestly wouldn't mind the Operator gameplay removing the energy bar altogether and becoming entirely cooldown-based.

Oh, don't I know it. I dream of a day when our Operators gain a proper ability set, and maybe even some kind of dedicated energy melee attacks, either via our Amps or some other device. For whatever reason, DE keep designing new combat systems with primary weapons but no melee weapons, instead sticking in a very simplistic melee system. Void Blast is another thing I'd like to move off of Operator Energy. Unfortunately, a larger-scale Operator redesign is somewhat outside the scope of this thread and I fear it would derail it pretty quickly if we got into it. Suffice it to say that I agree.

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3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

What about the idea of removing the Necramech Sprint separation entirely and leaving just Walk at the speed of Sprint?  That's not a disagreement, so much as I'm just curious. It just seems like right now, there's almost no difference in movement speed between Walk and Sprint - certainly not enough for one to cost a resource. Sure, it avoids the Warframe issue of "there's no point in not Sprinting" but it replaces it with the equally odd issue of "there's no point in not Walking." Headrush is a good idea in that it allows us to travel long distances. What does Sprint do?

I suppose you have a point there. With no functional difference between Walk and Sprint, there seems little purpose in distinguishing the two.

 

6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm somewhat working off the designs of old space shooters here, where Afterburner typically stiffened controls for its duration.

I suppose I bring to Railjack my own experience with Freelancer through much of my youth. I'm used to the limited boost option also granting increased maneuverability.

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For Railjack it doesn’t make sense because SPACE SHIP LOGIC and it will be extremely hard for enemies to hit you because you can just Zip to the end of the map by just holding the sprint button. I do agree on Necramechs, even with the stamina bar removed they can’t still outrun a Warframe. But at least it will help them catchup.

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1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

For Railjack it doesn’t make sense because SPACE SHIP LOGIC and it will be extremely hard for enemies to hit you because you can just Zip to the end of the map by just holding the sprint button.

That's true to a degree, though it's something we're already able to do in our Warframes and Archwings. Railjack is a bit unique in this regard, though, in that its missions (read: its one mission) don't really reward rushing to the end. You could rush past the Fighters and Crew Ships... But you still need to kill a large number of them anyway so that doesn't really speed the mission up. This only really impacts solo play, but even rushing to Points of Interest isn't really advisable because you need to leave tour Railjack behind. If you haven't chased off the enemy fleet, that typically means constant critical breaches.

This is a bit off-topic, but I personally believe that players should be allowed to rush past enemies if we so desire, but that mission design should convince us to not do so constantly. Right now, the "speedrunning problem" Warframe has is almost entirely due to mission design incentivising "getting to the end" as the only objective. Years ago, L4D already taught us that if you give players a single place to get to, they'll generally rush past everything else. With optional Points of Interest and more complex mechanics, Railjack so far does a decent job of incentivising a more holistic approach. All of this is to say that giving Railjack a "travel mode" shouldn't impact combat too severely, given how Railjack missions are designed. I am speculating, however.

 

2 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I suppose I bring to Railjack my own experience with Freelancer through much of my youth. I'm used to the limited boost option also granting increased maneuverability.

Yup. Played quite a bit of Freelancer and Descent: Freespace in my youth. Hell, I still have a box of Wing Commander 3: Heart of the Tiger over to my right over there :) It has, however, been probably 10-20 years since I've played any of those, so I might be forgetting exactly how they work. I do remember Descent: Freespace allowed our ships to strafe and hover, but very slowly. If you wanted any kind of speed, you had to move forward, which is what fostered the "dogfight" aspect of it, rather than the "sit next to a rock and turret" aspect of Star Wars: Squadrons. This is why my designs bias towards forward movement, with "boost" only moving us forward and requiring us to steer, rather than strafe and slide. I figure that's a decent limitation to make something more awkward in combat in return for making it more useful as a "long haul" tool. Then again, I'm also basing a bit of this on the likes of Hard Truck: Apocalypse where even slow trucks travelled fairly quickly on the road :)

This is off-topic, but I'm noticing a disturbing trend in "flight games" of late. All of them seem to use this "analogue stick" approach to steering the ship. You don't control the ship, you control a virtual analogue stick. The ship doesn't "follow" the analogue stick, but rather rotates in its direction at a constant rate. That didn't use to be the case - used to be we'd just have direct mouse controls. The Railjack does this, too, to the point that it's actually hard to recentre the reticle manually. That makes the ship feel additionally clunky in my experience.

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While the removal of stamina from Warframes was welcomed by the majority of players, it was a genie that could never be put back in just like our damage scaling. Warframe used to play slower. Elevators served a purpose as a way to recover stamina. With limited stamina you had to commit to firefights because you might not have enough stamina to run away when your shields were down. If you found cover, Butchers would flush you back out. Once stamina was removed, a lot of those interactions broke down and instead of changing the old enemies to fit this difference, DE just decided to crank up the spawn rates. The enemy AI is perfectly adequate for a slower game. They take cover and throw down blunts when there isn't any. Butchers rush you out of cover. Shield Lancers provide mobile cover for enemies to advance on your position and Blood Rush didn't exist back then. When melee was weak, stealth finishers served a purpose and getting close was actually risky.

In modern Warframe, energy economy, ammo economy, health economy are all problems that are solved on the modding screen before you even hop into the mission and serve as nothing more than fluff in the actual gameplay. No more raiding lockers for ammo, health and energy. No more taking cover for shields to recharge because Augur set. The enemies move so slow that you can always outrun them with infinite stamina. Operators give you risk free rez....

The real issue is that DE keeps adding new stuff without really checking if the foundation still holds up.....

Castlevania suffered this same issue back in the day in a video before Warframe was released....

 

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I'm somewhat confused by DE's design philosophy on this matter, because removing Stamina from parkour was one of the best decisions they ever made for Warframe, and I suspect is a major reason why the game became as successful as it is now, because traversal in this game feels free-flowing and largely unrestricted. Why the equivalent of Stamina had to be given to nearly everything else is beyond my understanding, particularly as it really doesn't seem like there's a need for it: there would be absolutely no issue to Necramechs hovering forever, or boosting from one end of an open level to another (which would be far slower than doing so on a K-Drive, let alone an Archwing), for example. Railjacks already disable weapons when doing their equivalent of sprinting, and that I think is restriction enough, particularly as the only time where one would have to drift for extended periods of time is the time where one would likely want to do so unfettered, i.e. when heading towards an objective literally miles away from present location in the vast nothingness of Railjack levels. Operators I think would be the only exception, as their rapid, free-targeted dash would let us cover almost any distance near-instantly if left unrestricted, though Operators as a system I feel are so redundant and full of their own problems that a stamina system is one of their lesser evils.

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16 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

While the removal of stamina from Warframes was welcomed by the majority of players, it was a genie that could never be put back in just like our damage scaling. Warframe used to play slower. Elevators served a purpose as a way to recover stamina. With limited stamina you had to commit to firefights because you might not have enough stamina to run away when your shields were down. If you found cover, Butchers would flush you back out. Once stamina was removed, a lot of those interactions broke down and instead of changing the old enemies to fit this difference, DE just decided to crank up the spawn rates. The enemy AI is perfectly adequate for a slower game. They take cover and throw down blunts when there isn't any. Butchers rush you out of cover. Shield Lancers provide mobile cover for enemies to advance on your position and Blood Rush didn't exist back then. When melee was weak, stealth finishers served a purpose and getting close was actually risky.

I wasn't around to try this version of Warframe so I'm speaking hypothetically here. In theory what you say makes sense, assuming Warframe originally resembled a "semi cover shooter" in the vein of Payday 2 - which is to say a full cover system didn't exist, but breaking line of sight to take cover and restore shields was still a legitimate game mechanic. We know games can work like this. However, I have trouble seeing how movement-related Stamina limitations really help foster that, and I believe this for two reasons - Division and Payday.

Division and especially Division 2 are straight-up cover shooters with dedicated cover mechanics. Neither game has limited Stamina, however. Division agents can sprint at full speed for miles without resting, but that doesn't seem to affect the core gameplay loop which very much resembles what you describe out there. Heavy Machinegunners, Snipers and deplayed Turrets serve to suppress players while shotgunners, shield enemies, hammer enemies and the like rush in to flush players out of cover, in addition to grenadiers throwing area-denial grenades. The ability to sprint forever never really enters into it because there's rarely anything to sprint to in combat that's more than 5-10 seconds away. Generally speaking, you can't really sprint for longer than that since hitscan enemy fire will usually kill you by that point, at least on decent difficulty settings.

While Payday 2 has limited Stamina, it has a rather generous amount of it. Since that game has larger, more open maps with objectives scattered around, Stamina does tend to limit how "mobile" a player can be. Dodge builds can usually cross the map easily while Armour builds will need to sprint from cover to cover and rest. However, I don't believe this really applies to Warframe combat because our combat encounters are generally dirt simple. If there are objectives at all (beyond "kill stuff"), there's only one active at a time. True, players can skip past encounters to get TO it. However, there isn't a lot of mobility required once we arrive since the majority of combat in this game is very static, either protecting a static objective or staying within a small area. Worse - lack of Stamina in Payday 2 tended to lead to a lot of camping since players weren't easily able to cover open ground between cover locations, which further bogged the pace down and necessitated the use of Stamina-boosting abilities.

I'm not saying that the problems you cite aren't real. I just don't think they trace back to the presence of Stamina or lack thereof. It seems far more plausible to point to power creep in other areas, such as energy recovery and health regeneration and ammo mutation, etc. Mobility does play a role, certainly. I'd argue it play much less of one, however, because it's almost always more optimal to "trade damage" with an enemy than it is to try and outmanoeuvre them. Despite my general affinity for both Division and Payday, both games eventually boil down to finding ways to mag-dump into tanky enemies without dying. It's why I'm addicted to the Riot Foam Launcher and its ability to pin enemies in place for 7+ seconds and spring them up out of cover...

To make a long story short: I don't think a slippery slope argument necessarily applies here. I've done my best to discuss Stamina in isolation as a means of examining the objective effects my proposed changes might have. The implications for what else might be changed down the road if this goes through is well outside the scope of this thread because that's a very broad topic with little room for accurate speculation. Would further removal of Stamina lead to more power creep, or would it lead to counter-balance in other sections? I can't say, and I don't think it really depends directly on the designs we propose or their intrinsic merits. The removal of Stamina might correlate with power creep, but I'm not convinced it contributes to it - not if done right.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why the equivalent of Stamina had to be given to nearly everything else is beyond my understanding, particularly as it really doesn't seem like there's a need for it: there would be absolutely no issue to Necramechs hovering forever, or boosting from one end of an open level to another (which would be far slower than doing so on a K-Drive, let alone an Archwing), for example.

I've pondered the same myself. Why did Necramechs have Stamina added to them? What design goal could this system possible have served. Well, outside of the tautological purpose of justifying the existence of Stamina-buffing mods, that is. The closest I've seen so far is someone up-thread arguing that it was more thematic relative to other Giant Mechana games, which is fair enough to a point. To me, it just feels that the presence of Stamina creates far too many irritants in far too many situations for the thematic benefits to be justified - and that's if we accept that DE had those themes in mind in the first place. To my eyes, asking people to stop in the middle of a long, uneventful journey across flat terrain and wait for a bar to refill before they can travel again is one of the least compelling ways to balance video games in general. It might be appropriate for MMOs circa 2004 as a holdover from EverQuest and the like, but I feel games have proven since that simply not having that is overall more compelling. This is why I struggle to come up with a reason for why DE went this way.

I can, however, concede that there are potential issues with us hovering forever as a Necramech. Video games since the beginning of time have been leery of letting players put themselves out of melee range reliably. City of Heroes went through so many design issues trying to keep players from Hovering constantly and eventually gave up. Warframe is still holding firm in this, though. Our Wall Cling is timed, our Archwings are constantly pelted with disabling AA missiles and our Necramechs have limited Hover. One could argue that hovering in place above terrain actually puts players in more danger than if they'd stayed down and in melee range since it places us within line of sight of every enemy in the same zip code. It's the same reason an Assault Space Marine trying to save his life by jetpacking high in the air almost always dies to fire from every Shoota Boy on the map, for instance. However, I can understand the concern, which is why I'm willing to concede on leaving Stamina for JUST that - to keep it consistent with Wall Cling, if nothing else.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Railjacks already disable weapons when doing their equivalent of sprinting, and that I think is restriction enough, particularly as the only time where one would have to drift for extended periods of time is the time where one would likely want to do so unfettered, i.e. when heading towards an objective literally miles away from present location in the vast nothingness of Railjack levels.

Wait, what? It does? I never knew that! :) Guess I've never tried firing my guns during a Drift... Although part of the reason for THAT is I can't really aim when moving that fast, especially with the screen shake. I should try that just to see for myself. But that just further erodes the need for Stamina, though. If players have to choose between moving fast or shooting, then "moving fast" is already balanced without the need for additional Stamina bars. If this is true, then it just confuses me even more on why Railjack has a Stamina bar in the first place, then. Well, I'm also confused why Railjack has three "speeds" when two would have been sufficient, as well, but that's a separate discussion about an old rule which keeps being grandfathered into new systems for seemingly no reason. Archwings do just fine with two speeds, why did Railjack need three?

I'm still sticking to my suggestion of turning Boost into what Drift is right now, but restricted to moving forward with no Stamina indication. As you point out, the only times where boosting constantly for the full length of a bar even makes sense are the same ones where Necramechs run out of Headrush Stamina - when travelling long distances. And if we're travelling long distances, we're usually either not in combat or at least easily outpacing enemies. Waiting in those situations turns into downtime for the sake of having downtime and no actual practical purpose. I THINK DE might have been afraid of people playing Railjack by permanently drifting so they never get hit, but there are more natural ways to combat this - if combatting it is even worth the bother.

I mean think about it: Our Warframes can move amazingly fast, but how many people really bother shooting during a Bullet Jump? Some do, I'm sure, but most plebeians like myself typically slow down to a brisk walk when shooting because we can't shoot for S#&$ otherwise :) Even if you change nothing, constantly boosting during Railjack just makes it harder to land shots.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Operators I think would be the only exception, as their rapid, free-targeted dash would let us cover almost any distance near-instantly if left unrestricted, though Operators as a system I feel are so redundant and full of their own problems that a stamina system is one of their lesser evils.

Agreed. Operator Stamina "removal" is the hardest sell of the lot, simply because Void Dash is so powerful as a movement too. What about my proposal of turning into a system of auto-replenishing charges, though? That should retain a similar "pace" to existing Void Dashing, it would be consistent with the Archwing Blink mechanic in terms of muscle memory (somewhat) and actually easier to control as it wouldn't be subject to every energy buff and pick-up. I know people don't like me bringing up Overwatch "because PvP," but that's essentially how Tracer's Blink works and she's perfectly mobile. If we hate this approach, though - Division 2 has a number of abilities which store charges per X seconds and allow you to use them back-to-back in return for having to wait longer before you use them again. Yes, that does bring up the spectre of "cooldowns," but it's an accurate depiction of how Void Dashes work now anyway. You have a bar, every dash costs part of that bar, you have to wait longer if you burn the entire bar than if you only burned part of it. The end result is the same, except my proposal wouldn't use the same bar that Void Mode and Void Blast draw on.

Sorry, didn't mean to make that sound like a sales pitch. Would something like that sound acceptable to you, and if not do you feel it could be modified to be more acceptable?

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

What about my proposal of turning into a system of auto-replenishing charges, though? That should retain a similar "pace" to existing Void Dashing, it would be consistent with the Archwing Blink mechanic in terms of muscle memory (somewhat) and actually easier to control as it wouldn't be subject to every energy buff and pick-up. I know people don't like me bringing up Overwatch "because PvP," but that's essentially how Tracer's Blink works and she's perfectly mobile. If we hate this approach, though - Division 2 has a number of abilities which store charges per X seconds and allow you to use them back-to-back in return for having to wait longer before you use them again. Yes, that does bring up the spectre of "cooldowns," but it's an accurate depiction of how Void Dashes work now anyway. You have a bar, every dash costs part of that bar, you have to wait longer if you burn the entire bar than if you only burned part of it. The end result is the same, except my proposal wouldn't use the same bar that Void Mode and Void Blast draw on.

Sorry, didn't mean to make that sound like a sales pitch. Would something like that sound acceptable to you, and if not do you feel it could be modified to be more acceptable?

I think that could work within the bounds of the current situation, yes. Void mode itself likely doesn't need a cost, and none of the Focus nodes should impose a cost either, so if Void Dash were the only thing costing anything, giving it its own series of charges would at least untie some of the other aspects of the Operator. I'm not a fan of cooldowns in general, nor of Operator Mode as a whole in its current or past implementations, but what you're suggesting would likely be a direct improvement nonetheless.

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On 2020-10-11 at 4:14 PM, Steel_Rook said:

Remove Sprint entirely. [...] Simply turn our default Walk into a Sprint all of the time for no cost.

This. Nobody ever wants to walk very slowly. Why make us press a button to not walk very slowly all the goddamn time? Toggle sprinting is broken in this game and toggles off all the damn time.

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On 2020-10-13 at 10:25 PM, Teridax68 said:

I think that could work within the bounds of the current situation, yes. Void mode itself likely doesn't need a cost, and none of the Focus nodes should impose a cost either, so if Void Dash were the only thing costing anything, giving it its own series of charges would at least untie some of the other aspects of the Operator. I'm not a fan of cooldowns in general, nor of Operator Mode as a whole in its current or past implementations, but what you're suggesting would likely be a direct improvement nonetheless.

Fair enough :) I'm not a huge fan of Operator implementation myself, and a broader discussion would have to involve major structural changes to Void Mode. Within this context, It's hard to discuss Void Dash in isolation since it's entirely contingent on Operator Energy, which itself revolves primarily around Void Mode turtling. Fingers crossed that Duviri Paradox comes with some kind of Operator Revised patch. One can always hope...

Ultimately, though, I think you can move Void Dash to a separate bar of its own (i.e. a literal Stamina bar) and it would work just as well. If memory serves, Operator attacks used to cost Operator Energy as well, initially, forcing Operators to balance offence and defence. Yet in the current state of the game, Operator attacks are moved off to a separate bar of its own - Amp Energy. It's purely for Amps and affected by Amp-specific abilities and does not compete with Void Mode. I guess my goal was to do something similar to Void Dash, as well.

Operators in general are severely undercooked. Having witnessed the genesis of Necramechs in real time... I can kind of see why. Operators right now feel like what Necramechs might after another patch - mostly unfinished, generally playable, standing by for a proper implementation. Pretty much all the problems Necramechs have, Operators had before them. I say this as some kind of revelation, because I didn't fully appreciate just how thrown-together and unfinished Operators really are until I saw the first draft of Necramechs.

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They already buffed the crap out of base Railjack movespeed at the cost of lowered boost speed and time. The boost bar also serves as a limit to how often you can use "dodges" to break enemy target locks. I feel like this one is more than fine as is right now.

As far as Necramechs, tossing stamina out the window on sprinting would be fine, as would reducing how much gauge sprinting uses. This one just feels like crap at the moment

As far as void dashing goes, the point really is managing the energy pool. If Void Dash had charges, and no longer drains energy, you'd just end up with more damage bonuses built up from void strike as you travel. This would even more heavily favor the explosive weapon meta to the detriment of everything else. The operator ability that should come off the energy bar, if anything is void blast.

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Stamina is used to restrict players. Unexpected, isn't it? Another point is that you perceive these limitations negatively, because now you are afraid of them. 

What are these restrictions for? It's simple. If you have infinite bulletjump, you ignore mobs. This is what is happening now, most of the missions are movement from point A to point B. Restrictions are there to keep you in battle. When you start having problems with stamina, you start thinking in a different direction, looking for cover and using more other gameplay moments. But when your mobility is infinite, it is very difficult to competently create complex content. Think about this the next time you talk about the lack of high content.

One misconception that players face is that stamina is artificially wasting time by walking uselessly before combat. Many games have circumvented this problem. Maunts are like k-drives that can't be used in combat or just endless stamina when you're not in combat.

Why doesn't this work for Warframe? Stamina is a constraint that is used to make other aspects of the game work and create gameplay moments. But this only works for a good game level designer. In Warframe, it's random. For example, you cannot use the cover system when you have generated 4 blocks of rooms where these cover are not. Opponents attack constantly and from all sides. Spawn mobs should have less randomness. If we have cleared one room, I don't want to expect enemies to come out of that room. One exception is warhammer vermintide, where at random moments you can be attacked by many mobs from all sides. But this is the mechanic of the wave, which has its own sound signal and the players are always aware of the wave or the miniboss ahead. 

Again. Determine why you are saddened by stamina. If because it restricts you, then it's the same as if you were angry with your antivirus for preventing you from infecting your computer with a virus. Stamina is designed to limit you.

 Also, the argument that this limits fast gameplay does not work here. How fast the gameplay is depends on the number of actions you take and the number of events that occur. If you play Khora on the defensive, then your actions are to cast a dome every 30 seconds and cast a whip, and events do not occur because the mobs cannot resist it. Yes, warframe has really fast gameplay. In the conclave. xD

Another point, if you are saddened that the developers do not use the restriction tools that they introduce into the game, then I understand you. If you are only interested in the reward, you will not understand this, but if you are interested in the missions themselves, then I think you will agree with the stamina if it really plays a role in how the mission works.

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Stamina is bad enough as it is, but the 2 fold boosting mechanic is obnoxious, and conflicts with QoL settings. I don't mind the mobility resource entirely, but it's not designed correctly. And I mean correctly, it's a Sci fantasy video game, the only priority is fun, and warframe is all about fun mobility, these need to be fixed so they are fun, period. 

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7 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Stamina is used to restrict players. Unexpected, isn't it? Another point is that you perceive these limitations negatively, because now you are afraid of them. 

Again. Determine why you are saddened by stamina. If because it restricts you, then it's the same as if you were angry with your antivirus for preventing you from infecting your computer with a virus. Stamina is designed to limit you.

I mean no disrespect, but your post seems to be projecting quite a bit of motivation on me that's not actually found in my own writing. I'd ask that you avoid the argumentum ad hominem approach and not try to psychoanalyse me. If my argument has merits, then it would have the same merits regardless of who made it. If my argument lacks merit, then these flaws would be evident within the argument itself. Attempting to discredit me does not reflect on the argument I'm presenting. Where I've injected personal anecdotes, they've been solely for clarification to ensure we're all on the same page, not for the sake of adding strength to the argument. I ask that you stick to the topic if possible.

 

7 hours ago, selig_fay said:

What are these restrictions for? It's simple. If you have infinite bulletjump, you ignore mobs. This is what is happening now, most of the missions are movement from point A to point B. Restrictions are there to keep you in battle. When you start having problems with stamina, you start thinking in a different direction, looking for cover and using more other gameplay moments. But when your mobility is infinite, it is very difficult to competently create complex content. Think about this the next time you talk about the lack of high content.

I don't believe this follows, and for a few reasons. First of all: While restrictions are indeed important, simply adding them without considering the role they serve isn't necessarily a positive change. Warframe's ground combat lacks movement restrictions, and I'm led to believe this was and remains an overwhelmingly welcome change. It does lead to players skipping combat encounters, this is true, but I ask the following questions here: What's the root cause of that and is that a bad thing? Players skip combat encounters because those combat encounters are meaningless padding between them and the objective. Good game design would motivate players to fight their way through the environment through intrinsic motivation. That's why I keep bringing up Payday 2. It features much more open-ended maps than Warframe, yet players nevertheless explored looking for optional loot and mission objectives as well as due to the nature of the main objectives. Hotline Miami Day 1 is a good example of this. Players could just camp out and wait for the next main objective to trigger, but there's a Meth Lab where extra loot can be cooked, multiple additional money bags in various rooms in the motel and various car trunks and - later - additional chemicals in the basement if one opens enough crates. The objectives themselves move players around the area.

Actually, Payday 2 is a good example in general, because killing enemies in that game does not reward players with anything but some of the ammo they spent to kill them. Cops don't drop money or Gage Coins or Continental Coins or weapon mods or anything else of value. Yet more often than not, you'll see people roaming the map killing them anyway, both because it's fun (it is a shooter game) and because it helps to clear out the current area where the objectives have you camped at the moment. I realise that Warframe is a procedurally-generated game, but the procedural generation exists on a fairly high level. Tiles are always the same, since those are hand-made and fixed. Only the tile-to-tile transitions and the general "map" is procedurally generated.

Moreover, I wonder why skipping past enemies is necessarily a bad thing? Warframe is hardly the first game to do this. Most open-world games give us the ability to fast-travel directly to the location we need to be, rather than travelling long-distance and fighting along the way. All of the old MMOs - City of Heroes, Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, etc. - all of them started out with the idea of limiting player movement as a means of forcing us to fight our way to objectives. All of them eventually gave up, and for a simple reason - it's BORING. Even for die-hard fans, the charm of combat eventually wears out and intermediate fights start to feel like intrusions on our way to what we ACTUALLY want to do. In fact, friends of mine playing The Division often complain about this - getting harassed by random encounters when they just wanted to get to a mission or activity. All of these games eventually devolve into simply jumping/running/flying past enemies to get to where you were going. The onus is on the underlying game to give us reason to fight enemies beyond "you can't get around them."

Secondly: You could very easily create movement restrictions without Stamina. Do you want your players to clear every room of enemies before moving on? Lock the door to the next room until all enemies are killed. It's a dirt-simple mechanic that games have been using for 20 years. You walk into a room, the doors lock, enemies start spawning until you've exhausted their spawn pool, then the doors open and you can proceed. If we're going to bias success, then Doom 4 (aka Doom 2016) did precisely this, and that was a successful game, right? Think about it for a minute, however - how well will something like this be received by the Warframe community? How well, considering the mere existence of Friendship Doors causes some to rant for pages. You could easily restrict people from skipping fights, but what would that actually accomplish?

And finally... This argument entirely fails to address the topics of conversation I specifically brought up - Necramechs, Railjack, Operators. I'll ask this again - what does limited Stamina add to the Necramech core gameplay experience? So far the only satisfying answer I got was thematic, arguing that it's consistent with giant mecha stories. That's fair enough, but I still don't believe it applies to this specific game. Limiting my Necramech's ability to sprint is irrelevant because Sprint is functionally indistinguishable from Walk. Limiting my ability to Headrush long distances has no impact on combat because even unmodded headrush can travel 200 meters - well outside the scale of most combat. All it does is make it slower to travel long distances while inducing an awkward pause - a pause which does not put me in danger or prevent me from skipping past enemies because there are no enemies in sight when this happens nearly any of the time. The only aspect I can see needing Stamina is maybe Hover, but even there the justification is flimsy - a concern about keeping players out of melee range in a game where a majority of enemies are ranged. Necramech Stamina induces inconvenience and yet offers no benefits. It's a limitation for the sake of having a limitation and no real other purpose near as I can tell.

 

7 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Another point, if you are saddened that the developers do not use the restriction tools that they introduce into the game, then I understand you. If you are only interested in the reward, you will not understand this, but if you are interested in the missions themselves, then I think you will agree with the stamina if it really plays a role in how the mission works.

That's a false dilemma. Yes, I understand but no, I don't agree. Let me explain. I don't really care about the rewards Warframe has to offer me any more. I don't have everything, but I have just about everything I actually want. The reason I accuse you of projecting onto me is because you seem to have built up in your mind an image of my motivation that's simply not real. Whenever I play Warframe any more, I usually do "full exploration" runs of missions - open every locker, break every container, visit every dead end, find all the hidden things. I don't expect you to just magically know my posting history, but this is hardly the first time I've brought this up. If you want more context, check out my thoughts on Linear vs. Sprawling maps. I say this for context - my goal here is not to rush through missions trying to grind for rewards.

I still don't see the benefits of Stamina. I've seen people assert that it plays some kind of important "role" in Warframe, but I see no evidence of such. An argument is made that Stamina forces us to fight enemies on the way to our objectives. Not only is that not always a good thing, Stamina also doesn't really do that. Not on its own, anyway. I can slap on a Hobbled Dragon key, hold W and walk my way through entire missions with my Inaros because he heals more from taking damage than the damage he actually takes. No amount of Stamina could limit me there. I could alternately pick something like Mesa and slow-walk through a mission gunning everyone down as they spawn, but is that any more compelling? It's an aimbot. Stamina on its own does nothing of the sort. What COULD cause players to stop and fight things is proper mission objectives.

Take Disruption, for example. The game mode requires players to listen for the distinctive beep of a Demolyst, as well as keep an eye on all doors leading into the room. Once a Conduit is active, players are encouraged to clear the area because enemies shooting makes noise which could drown out the faint beep of a demolyst far away. Players are also encouraged to explore the map looking for the Demolyst, because finding them early makes killing them before they blow up much easier. Yes, we still skip past enemies on the way to doing this, but that's by design. Enemies aren't there to kill us, they aren't there to fail our objective. They're there to get in our way and make noise while we work on a broader objective. That mission type not only doesn't need Stamina in order to get players to engage in combat, but Stamina in that game mode would be actively detrimental as rapid movement is necessary in order to search a large area quickly.

So no, I don't agree that Stamina plays an important role in how the game works. I've so far seen fairly little to convince me that it does, as a point of fact.

 

9 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

They already buffed the crap out of base Railjack movespeed at the cost of lowered boost speed and time. The boost bar also serves as a limit to how often you can use "dodges" to break enemy target locks. I feel like this one is more than fine as is right now.

This is true to a point, though it's also something I already covered in the OP. I proposed replacing the Vector Manoeuvre with the maximum-strength shunt from the end of a full Drift, handled like Archwing Blink. That is to say - one shunt every 3 seconds on its own separate Stamina bar. I'm still not sold on whether I want to let the Railjack shunt in any direction or just forward, but that's not really relevant to the point you're raising here. As of right now, I consider the Vector Manoeuvre to be pretty much pointless as its distance travelled is far too low to matter and missiles can be avoided by just moving quickly. That and a well-built Railjack can tank pretty much any kind of incoming fire. Replacing it with a Shunt that also breaks target locks would be an improvement in my opinion, because it would serve as an actual dodge as well.

 

9 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

As far as void dashing goes, the point really is managing the energy pool. If Void Dash had charges, and no longer drains energy, you'd just end up with more damage bonuses built up from void strike as you travel. This would even more heavily favor the explosive weapon meta to the detriment of everything else. The operator ability that should come off the energy bar, if anything is void blast.

Operators are a... Complicated problem, true. My reasoning for bringing them, however, is that their version of energy management just isn't "fun." By this, I mean that we're given a bunch of really cool tools that would be fun to play around with, that we ostensibly never get to enjoy because they draw on the same energy pool as Void Mode. We need Void Mode to not die, given that Operators are remarkably squishy (for lack of shields or real armour). My choices, then, are "don't die" or "have fun." I'm obviously going to choose the former because I can't have fun when I'm dead, but it's a lose/lose scenario. Either I turtle or I just don't bother with my Operator. So... I just don't bother with my Operator.

Mind you, I can't speak to Eidolon fights. I know players have come up with some ludicrous Operator builds specifically for those. My interest, however, is in using Operators in more mainstream content - missions and such. The need to balance survivability and mobility is particularly painful in those situations, since I could... You know, just swap to my Warframe who can attack, defend and move all at the same time with no bottlenecks between those activities. It sounds to me like Operator balance (and specifically Void Strike) might be more at issue here than Void Dash. Again - Operators are not exactly well-designed in this game, and have a few really serious special-case exception issues like that.

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