Offering built Forma from Nights of Naberus offerings for Warframe Revised #4

[Voltage]

For those of you who missed the latest Devstream, at approximately 35:45, [DE]Scott goes on to explain that there will be a bundle of revisions for: the damage system, some status stuff that needs to be addressed, and some "abusive" usage of powers. I am mainly focused on the first two (but the latter still benefits from this thread).

It is fairly well known that Viral (and Slash as usual) stand well above other damage types in practical combat and general effectiveness. This is most definitely why Deimos enemies are immune to Viral status effects. I definitely support toning them down a little as Scott seems to be eluding to in his response on Warframe Revised. I hope other status effects are buffed (Gas, Blast, Magnetic, Cold, Impact, and Puncture to name a few), and Viral is lowered to somewhere around the old effect.

Modding for Cold (and by extension modding for Viral, Magnetic, and Blast) require a Vazarin polarity within builds when using Chilling Grasp (Shotgun), Glacial Edge (Arch-Melee), (Primed) Cryo Rounds (Rifle), Deep Freeze (Secondary), North Wind (Melee), and Polar Magazine (Arch-gun). Here comes the problem and the purpose of this feedback thread.

The first Warframe Revised update (covering the current status mechanics) released many months ago. Players have become accustomed to these mechanics and have optimized their arsenal accordingly. Adjusting and balancing status effects is perfectly fine to make the game healthier, but this will potentially result with many players having hundreds of Forma, hours, and resources invested into now suboptimal loadouts. This was not a huge deal with the melee update because most melee mods are Madurai or Naramon polarities already (as well as Melee having a stance mod to increase capacity). However, as I mentioned earlier, Vazarin polarities are used exclusively for Cold mods on builds.

Balancing status effects (and nerfing Viral appropriately I actually hope) is totally cool with me, but it would be great to have an opportunity to gain the resources needed to adjust my builds to the upcoming changes. Plague Star will not be made available for now, but the Nights of Naberus event is right around the corner. DE could make changes to Cold mod polarities for consistency and run scripts to reimburse players, but I feel the easiest solution that still has a similar gesture is adding built Forma as a reward from the Nights of Naberus offerings for Mother tokens.

The changes to Warframe abilities will also benefit from having more readily available Forma for a short time to prepare needed changes to the arsenal. 

I understand changing core mechanics such as abilities, damage, and status effects is not the easiest thing from the developer standpoint. I also understand Warframe is an ever-changing and unfinished game. However, giving players a chance to earn the resources to adjust to massive foundational changes for gameplay through playing the game would be very healthy and a generous gesture to everyone (new, returning, or highly active). I have applied just shy of 2,900 Forma across my Arsenal, and I have plenty of Platinum to buy Forma to fix builds, but most players really would appreciate an avenue to re-optimize their favorite pieces of gear without needing to wait weeks to craft Forma, or having to trade for or purchase more Platinum to obtain the Forma needed for this situation.

Please consider adding built Forma to the Nights of Naberus offerings, especially with the lack of Plague Star this year. Thank you.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Please consider adding built Forma to the Nights of Naberus offerings, especially with the lack of Plague Star this year. Thank you.

There was a Plague Star this year.

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There was a Plague Star this year.

Sure, we had one in January, and I omitted that for not being relevant to this topic on Warframe Revised. I stated that because we will not see another Plague Star in 2020, and the built Forma reward was up in the air on that Prime Time. Additionally, the appearance of Plague Star in January was before even the first Warframe Revised that nerfed Gas, Corrosive, and kept the currently unhealthy Viral/Slash meta for damage types.

Way to cherry-pick and skip the entire intent of the post. Tell me, was the January Plague Star relevant for Warframe Revised 1, 2, 3, and now 4? No. It wasn't, and built Forma is not reliable to earn. We do not have Tower Void, and the drop chance from Lua is not consistent enough to be a reliable farming method.

If DE is to balance status effects, Viral should most definitely be nerfed for the health of the game. If this happens, there will be hundreds of Forma and many hours of leveling needed across the arsenal for optimization and fixing builds. I will have no issue spending another couple thousands Platinum on Forma, but this post isn't about me, it's about the general playerbase rightfully earning some sort of gesture to offset build changes.

[Loza03]

Just now, Voltage said:

Sure, we had one in January, and I omitted that for not being relevant to Warframe Revised. I stated that because we will not see another Plague Star in 2020, and the built Forma reward was up in the air on that Prime Time. Additionally, the appearance of Plague Star in January was before even the first Warframe Revised that nerfed Gas, Corrosive, and kept the currently unhealthy Viral/Slash meta for damage types.

Way to cherry-pick and skip the entire intent of the post. Tell me, was the January Plague Star relevant for Warframe Revised 1, 2, 3, and now 4? No. It wasn't, and Built Forma is not reliable to earn. We do not have Tower Void, and the drop chance from Lua is not consistent enough to be a reliable farming method.

If DE is to balance status effects, Viral will likely be nerfed. If this happens, there will be hundreds of Forma and many hours of leveling needed across the arsenal for optimization and fixing builds. 

Try again.

As you say, Plague Star is irrelevant to Warframe: revised. So, since Naberus Nights would likewise be irrelevant since it's also an event, I feel comfortable separating that point off. DE is already known to gift free forma and/or affinity boosters around the time of major balance shifts already. So an active source of forma is irrelevant either way. 

[Voltage]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As you say, Plague Star is irrelevant to Warframe: revised. So, since Naberus Nights would likewise be irrelevant since it's also an event, I feel comfortable separating that point off. DE is already known to gift free forma and/or affinity boosters around the time of major balance shifts already. So an active source of forma is irrelevant either way. 

Again, you are purposefully skipping over text again. I said the January Plague Star was not relevant due to the timing of it. The timing of Nights of Naberus is important.

DE is not known for appropriately compensating at all. Giving a single booster or a few Forma for potentially tens or even hundreds of hours of playtime is inadequate, especially when it is the magnitude of changing the damage or status system.

An active source of built Forma for Warframe Revised is relevant, because many players will be angered if a bunch of weapons have cold mods that just aren't the best anymore.

[Loza03]

Just now, Voltage said:

Again, you are purposefully skipping over text again. I said the January Plague Star was not relevant due to the timing of it. The timing of Nights of Naberus is important.

DE is not known for appropriately compensating at all. Giving a single booster or a few Forma for potentially tens or even hundreds of hours of playtime is not adequate, especially when it is the magnitude of changing the damage or status system.

An active source of built Forma for Warframe Revised is relevant, because many players will be angered if a bunch of weapons have cold mods that just aren't the best anymore.

You signed up for a game in active development, signing and agreeing to terms and conditions that said 'we can change this game at any time'. The fact they compensate you at all is already generous, not to mention that in many cases, the scale of re-formaing required is simply overstated. For myself, the changes in Warframe revised generally meant switching an electricity 60/60 mod for a cold 60/60 mod which was usually in an unpolarised slot to begin with.

The people who would need this the most are also people who already have the most capability to gather forma, since it's only complete min-maxing that requires that scale of forma.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You signed up for a game in active development, signing and agreeing to terms and conditions that said 'we can change this game at any time'.

 

36 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I understand changing core mechanics such as abilities, damage, and status effects is not the easiest thing from the developer standpoint. I also understand Warframe is an ever-changing and unfinished game. However, giving players a chance to earn the resources to adjust to massive foundational changes for gameplay through playing the game would be very healthy and a generous gesture to everyone (new, returning, or highly active). I have applied just shy of 2,900 Forma across my Arsenal, and I have plenty of Platinum to buy Forma to fix builds, but most players really would appreciate an avenue to re-optimize their favorite pieces of gear without needing to wait weeks to craft Forma, or having to trade for or purchase more Platinum to obtain the Forma needed for this situation.

Maybe you missed this paragraph critiquing the bolded text for some quick upvotes.

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The fact they compensate you at all is already generous, not to mention that in many cases, the scale of re-formaing required is simply overstated. For myself, the changes in Warframe revised generally meant switching an electricity 60/60 mod for a cold 60/60 mod which was usually in an unpolarised slot to begin with.

 

37 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This was not a huge deal with the melee update because most melee mods are Madurai or Naramon polarities already (as well as Melee having a stance mod to increase capacity). However, as I mentioned earlier, Vazarin polarities are used exclusively for Cold mods on builds.

See above

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The people who would need this the most are also people who already have the most capability to gather forma, since it's only complete min-maxing that requires that scale of forma.

Not everyone is a min-maxer when they seek to use relevantly powered equipment. I am aware that you can get through the game with your Physique Inaros and 0 Forma Kronen Prime. Forma is used by this entire playerbase. Different players use different amounts, but the entire playerbase uses it. When changing foundational systems to combat, it would be nice to get a leg-up as a player for being invested in your weapons.

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The fact they compensate you at all is already generous

Ah yes, the classic: "Free game, stop complaining" argument. Player time investments should be respected and compensated in some fashion when altered.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Not everyone is a min-maxer when they seek to use relevantly powered equipment. I am aware that you can get through the game with your Physique Inaros and 0 Forma Kronen Prime. Forma is used by this entire playerbase. Different players use different amounts, but the entire playerbase uses it. When changing foundational systems to combat, it would be nice to get a leg-up as a player for being invested in your weapons.

And therefore, by your own admission the amount of the playerbase affected to a major degree where they would need a huge forma supply to recover from Revised part 4 is relatively small. 

The core of your argument is that the playerbase need cheap Forma from Naberus for it to be enough of a leg-up, but the only people who would actually need Naberus Nights levels of leg-up are people who have already proven they are willing to spend hundreds of hours perfecting their builds in sub-optimal circumstances. For most other people, the leg-up given is sufficient.

11 minutes ago, Voltage said:

 

54 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I understand changing core mechanics such as abilities, damage, and status effects is not the easiest thing from the developer standpoint. I also understand Warframe is an ever-changing and unfinished game. However, giving players a chance to earn the resources to adjust to massive foundational changes for gameplay through playing the game would be very healthy and a generous gesture to everyone (new, returning, or highly active). I have applied just shy of 2,900 Forma across my Arsenal, and I have plenty of Platinum to buy Forma to fix builds, but most players really would appreciate an avenue to re-optimize their favorite pieces of gear without needing to wait weeks to craft Forma, or having to trade for or purchase more Platinum to obtain the Forma needed for this situation.

Maybe you missed this paragraph critiquing the bolded text for some quick upvotes.

Because, as already stated, even massive foundational changes aren't going to affect most people anywhere near as badly as to need hundreds of forma to rectify, in no small part due to a factual error:

57 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Modding for Cold (and by extension modding for Viral, Magnetic, and Blast) require a Vazarin polarity within builds when using Chilling Grasp (Shotgun), Glacial Edge (Arch-Melee), (Primed) Cryo Rounds (Rifle), Deep Freeze (Secondary), North Wind (Melee), and Polar Magazine (Arch-gun). Here comes the problem and the purpose of this feedback thread.

Every cold 60/60 mod uses a Madurai Polarity. In other words, modding for viral does not require a Vazarin Polarity within builds at all, or even as much modding space.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I always like easy(er) forma, but I do understand why DE might be reluctant in providing PS levels of it. So I won't really touch that specific point and remain neutral. But if I were to choose between having those built formas in PS or Naberus, I'd go with Naberus 100%, since it's a guaranteed event that always occurs on the same time of the year.

However I fully agree that the ele elemental mods should all be under the same polarity. Regardless of element, or of it being status-based or a 90%/primed mod. The disposition of these polarities in the mod config menu really screws my ability to have multiple build tabs with multiple element combinations on several weapons since most of the time the elements won't mix well because of the 90% cold mods. If they were all madurai the problem would cease to exist right then and there.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I always like easy(er) forma, but I do understand why DE might be reluctant in providing PS levels of it. So I won't really touch that specific point and remain neutral. But if I were to choose between having those built formas in PS or Naberus, I'd go with Naberus 100%, since it's a guaranteed event that always occurs on the same time of the year.

Yeah, ok, that's a fair point. That makes Halloween something to look forward to. Forma being the 'Halloween candy' as it were.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

However I fully agree that the ele elemental mods should all be under the same polarity. Regardless of element, or of it being status-based or a 90%/primed mod. 

Also agreed. At the very least, consistency in the 90% mods would be appreciated, as this has been a long-standing issue.

[Marr]

32 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You signed up for a game in active development, signing and agreeing to terms and conditions that said 'we can change this game at any time'. The fact they compensate you at all is already generous, not to mention that in many cases, the scale of re-formaing required is simply overstated. For myself, the changes in Warframe revised generally meant switching an electricity 60/60 mod for a cold 60/60 mod which was usually in an unpolarised slot to begin with.

The people who would need this the most are also people who already have the most capability to gather forma, since it's only complete min-maxing that requires that scale of forma.

So let's take this point by point.

1. Resorting to legalese in order to defend a position is in poor taste, because it means that you have exhausted and sort of good will with your community. You know full well that people are entitled to a reforma but you want to increase monetary gains or do not value the time and effort people when into capturing and then using these forma. If we must resort to legalese then we can. Digital Extremes is bound to other regulatory bodies, one of which being the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC has rules against false advertising and fraud, because forma last into perpetuity this can be considered false advertising as the product they paid for is not the product they are currently receiving. So if you want to play a game of legal back and forth we can, but it doesn't end well for you.

2. Your little description of how cold mod switching works only applies to melee and isn't even correct. Only cold status mods are madurai, all other cold mods fall under the vazarin polarity. And while you make the observation that all you have to do is switch cold status to another status that is a complete failure to understand math. There are instances where you would want to use the more powerful pure cold mods on a weapon, such as Primed Cyro rounds. Many of us formaed for a vazarin polarity for that, and now will have to change that if viral is modified.

3. Your whole spiel trying to minimize the impact is completely disrespectful, the moment that one player is somehow treated as less worthy than another is the moment you lose players. The players who have invested lots of time, money and energy into this game do not suddenly get to be worth less to the developers because they have the capacity to require that forma. Voltage's request is a simply plea to allow those hard core players an avenue that is more respectful of their time than the current forma acquisition system is if the changes coming in Part 4 dramatically alter the status landscape of this game.

Put simply you are either too out of touch with this game to realize the magnitude of investment that some players have put into this game and do not understand how much heartache and time these changes would shatter, or you simply don't care, in which case why are you commenting on this thread? I'm not really sure what's worse.

[Drachnyn]

Considering naberus nights is plague star's successor in terms of rewards it only makes sense to include built forma. However I suspect this reward made the whole event disliked by DE.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Marr said:

1. Resorting to legalese in order to defend a position is in poor taste, because it means that you have exhausted and sort of good will with your community. You know full well that people are entitled to a reforma but you want to increase monetary gains or do not value the time and effort people when into capturing and then using these forma. If we must resort to legalese then we can. Digital Extremes is bound to other regulatory bodies, one of which being the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC has rules against false advertising and fraud, because forma last into perpetuity this can be considered false advertising as the product they paid for is not the product they are currently receiving. So if you want to play a game of legal back and forth we can, but it doesn't end well for you.

You literally check a box that says you're OK with this. That's not legalese. That's you saying you are OK with this.

1 minute ago, Marr said:

2. Your little description of how cold mod switching works only applies to melee and isn't even correct. Only cold status mods are madurai, all other cold mods fall under the vazarin polarity. And while you make the observation that all you have to do is switch cold status to another status that is a complete failure to understand math. There are instances where you would want to use the more powerful pure cold mods on a weapon, such as Primed Cyro rounds. Many of us formaed for a vazarin polarity for that, and now will have to change that if viral is modified.

I never mentioned melee. All cold 60/60 mods are Madurai, and I said as much.

As for if you want the maximum power? Well then you get into optimisation terms, so lets get to that.

4 minutes ago, Marr said:

3. Your whole spiel trying to minimize the impact is completely disrespectful, the moment that one player is somehow treated as less worthy than another is the moment you lose players. The players who have invested lots of time, money and energy into this game do not suddenly get to be worth less to the developers because they have the capacity to require that forma. Voltage's request is a simply plea to allow those hard core players an avenue that is more respectful of their time than the current forma acquisition system is if the changes coming in Part 4 dramatically alter the status landscape of this game.

Then ask for better forma acquisition as a whole. Deconstruct why Forma is an issue. Suggest issues with Forma. 

But at the end of the day any change is going to screw somebody with thousands of hours over. For example, Heart of Deimos has already negated the effect of viral builds if you want to excel there, and that might continue into the future. Should DE compensate players for that? What about content that's at a hypothetical higher level than what current gear can handle, similar to a Monster Hunter G-rank? Or other new enemies that require vastly different approaches.

The impact has to be minimised, simply due to how often that impact exists, lest we get into the other problem with repetitive, same-y content because DE steps on eggshells to never again offend or invalidate somebody with 1000+ hours.

[Marr]

17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You literally check a box that says you're OK with this. That's not legalese. That's you saying you are OK with this.

I never mentioned melee. All cold 60/60 mods are Madurai, and I said as much.

As for if you want the maximum power? Well then you get into optimisation terms, so lets get to that.

Then ask for better forma acquisition as a whole. Deconstruct why Forma is an issue. Suggest issues with Forma. 

But at the end of the day any change is going to screw somebody with thousands of hours over. For example, Heart of Deimos has already negated the effect of viral builds if you want to excel there, and that might continue into the future. Should DE compensate players for that? What about content that's at a hypothetical higher level than what current gear can handle, similar to a Monster Hunter G-rank? Or other new enemies that require vastly different approaches.

The impact has to be minimised, simply due to how often that impact exists, lest we get into the other problem with repetitive, same-y content because DE steps on eggshells to never again offend or invalidate somebody with 1000+ hours.

1. DE signs several hundreds of documents complying with FTC regs, why are we not holding them accountable to that then?

2. Cold status is far more prevalent on melee than any other weapon class in the game

3. You do realize that giving forma with this event is a way of fixing forma? It is an easy low cost solution as DE is already incorporating with the plague star elements. The onus isn't on me to do DE's job, but I will defend someone who you are crucifying simply because they won't defend DE like you choose to do. When DE starts paying us to rework forma, I'll reconsider your request.

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, Marr said:

1. DE signs several hundreds of documents complying with FTC regs, why are we not holding them accountable to that then?

Sounds like an issue between DE and the FTC themselves of which I am representative to neither. So, unless you're personally willing to initiate that conversation with the FTC or DE themselves, I suggest we stick to the simple fact that we all agreed that DE is permitted to change the game whenever they please.

16 minutes ago, Marr said:

2. Cold status is far more prevalent on melee than any other weapon class in the game

Doesn't matter. OP's argument is largely predicated on the false information that a D-polarity is required to use cold damage, and even without wading into the 'but nobody's forcing you to forma' rabbit it fails to acknowledge the fact that other routes that exist, and that you only need a D-polarity on optimised setups on certain weapons, meaning a majority of players will be minimally affected by changes to viral damage (assuming said changes even shake it from its throne to begin with, which let's be honest here, not outside the realm of possibility)

22 minutes ago, Marr said:

You do realize that giving forma with this event is a way of fixing forma? It is an easy low cost solution as DE is already incorporating with the plague star elements.

And once the event ends? It's not exactly a permanent solution we're talking here. If you believe that it's a valid cause that a certain group of people are consistently and disproportionately affected by changes due to the Forma system, and propose alternatives, I've got no issue with that (hell, I might well agree with what you have to say!) But that's not the situation we're discussing. This thread is predicated on two pieces of misinformation: That Plague Star is not running this year (it has) and that a substantial proportion of the playerbase will be forced to reforma a large chunk of their arsenal due to viral damage (which is false for the many reasons already stated).

27 minutes ago, Marr said:

The onus isn't on me to do DE's job, but I will defend someone who you are crucifying simply because they won't defend DE like you choose to do.

Oh please. At the same time as we've been having this conversation, I've compared DE to a Demogorgon (or similar monsters. I wasn't specific) at least once. I have made my fair share of criticism against DE and the game, and stand by most of it. I take issue to threads making requests based on faulty or outright false information.

30 minutes ago, Marr said:

When DE starts paying us to rework forma, I'll reconsider your request.

Hey, if you manage to land a job at DE, then that's worthy of applause in and of itself. 

[Marr]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Sounds like an issue between DE and the FTC themselves of which I am representative to neither. So, unless you're personally willing to initiate that conversation with the FTC or DE themselves, I suggest we stick to the simple fact that we all agreed that DE is permitted to change the game whenever they please.

Doesn't matter. OP's argument is largely predicated on the false information that a D-polarity is required to use cold damage, and even without wading into the 'but nobody's forcing you to forma' rabbit it fails to acknowledge the fact that other routes that exist, and that you only need a D-polarity on optimised setups on certain weapons, meaning a majority of players will be minimally affected by changes to viral damage (assuming said changes even shake it from its throne to begin with, which let's be honest here, not outside the realm of possibility)

And once the event ends? It's not exactly a permanent solution we're talking here. If you believe that it's a valid cause that a certain group of people are consistently and disproportionately affected by changes due to the Forma system, and propose alternatives, I've got no issue with that (hell, I might well agree with what you have to say!) But that's not the situation we're discussing. This thread is predicated on two pieces of misinformation: That Plague Star is not running this year (it has) and that a substantial proportion of the playerbase will be forced to reforma a large chunk of their arsenal due to viral damage (which is false for the many reasons already stated).

Oh please. At the same time as we've been having this conversation, I've compared DE to a Demogorgon (or similar monsters. I wasn't specific) at least once. I have made my fair share of criticism against DE and the game, and stand by most of it. I take issue to threads making requests based on faulty or outright false information.

Hey, if you manage to land a job at DE, then that's worthy of applause in and of itself. 

1. Ah yes let's stick to facts convenient to you and not to others, The fact is consumer consumer brings claims to the FTC in order to facilitate fraud investigations. You are infact a consumer, so perhaps you should be an advocate for exposing fraudulent advertising.

2. OP's point isn't that it is the only way to cold damage, it is the OPTIMAL way to cold damage. Don't misread the facts.

3. I mean of course it isn't a permanent solution, but it would be an olive branch to help a reeling playerbase who has been scorned by DE multiple times this year. The misinformation is not relevant to the request. PS running this year does not negate the idea that some kind of compensation should be given to players for dramatic and far reaching overhauls that have been performed AFTER plague star arrived. There is no reason for the player to invest anything into this game ever if it is going to be invalidate a few weeks later. A substantial portion of the playerbase does not need to be scorned for this to be considered an affront to them. Apply this theory to any other portion of daily life and it does not hold up. People are inherently equal and their investment should be treated equally. 

4. Your do not even understand the information you are trying to refute. You're just looking for an argument...

[Loza03]

Just now, Marr said:

1. Ah yes let's stick to facts convenient to you and not to others, The fact is consumer consumer brings claims to the FTC in order to facilitate fraud investigations. You are infact a consumer, so perhaps you should be an advocate for exposing fraudulent advertising.

I'm well aware of fraudulent advertising, and I don't agree with it. But, since a wide multitude of services similar Warframe exist and have existed for quite some time, I can only assume that they fall within present legal boundaries. Again, you are more than welcome to bring this up with the FTC's of the world, but as I am not a representative of any of those organisations, you are not doing so here. I would argue such a debate is well beyond the scope of of a spat between strangers of the internet.

5 minutes ago, Marr said:

2. OP's point isn't that it is the only way to cold damage, it is the OPTIMAL way to cold damage. Don't misread the facts.

It would appear I misread. It's not outright false, although it's still faulty logic since again, it assumes that everyone's taking the approach of greatest optimisation. It remains that, in reality, the effect is much less severe than OP has suggested.

7 minutes ago, Marr said:

3. I mean of course it isn't a permanent solution, but it would be an olive branch to help a reeling playerbase who has been scorned by DE multiple times this year. The misinformation is not relevant to the request.

And why doesn't the free forma and affinity boosters they already routinely give as compensation count as such an olive branch? It makes the time investment much lower.

9 minutes ago, Marr said:

PS running this year does not negate the idea that some kind of compensation should be given to players for dramatic and far reaching overhauls that have been performed AFTER plague star arrived. There is no reason for the player to invest anything into this game ever if it is going to be invalidate a few weeks later. A substantial portion of the playerbase does not need to be scorned for this to be considered an affront to them. Apply this theory to any other portion of daily life and it does not hold up. People are inherently equal and their investment should be treated equally. 

Again, almost any significant addition DE could make will affect at least a portion of the playerbase's investments significantly, especially min-maxers (by sheer nature of the 'min' part of the term). Stronger enemies, loot and content phases out once-meta equipment, shake-ups to the formula change what's 'optimised' and so on and so forth.

Should DE compensate players with vast bounties of forma, affinity boosters and potatoes every time they release an update that changes the meta? Or should they never change said meta, providing only repackaged and reskinned content that behaves identically to past content ad infinitum, for fear of incurring the wrath of a minority of players personally affected?

18 minutes ago, Marr said:

4. Your do not even understand the information you are trying to refute. You're just looking for an argument...

Didn't you respond to me?

[MBaldelli]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

It is fairly well known that Viral (and Slash as usual) stand well above other damage types in practical combat and general effectiveness. This is most definitely why Deimos enemies are immune to Viral status effects. I definitely support toning them down a little as Scott seems to be eluding to in his response on Warframe Revised. I hope other status effects are buffed (Gas, Blast, Magnetic, Cold, Impact, and Puncture to name a few), and Viral is lowered to somewhere around the old effect.

As a fellow veteran I agree wholeheartedly with the proposals of the original post and would like to add to by stressing that while I understood the reason for the shield-gating causing gas to be pushed into the niche against shield-less enemies (particularly the Infested), Magnetic (along with Impact) remains getting the wrong end of the stick when it comes to its performance against Corpus. 

I have stated time and time (and time) again that if it's supposed to be so good against shields and Corpus why is it not doing the proposed damage for hitting weak points and shields when fighting them from Phobos and out?  Why do I need to take two, three and even four shorts in the with these builds when I can use a better weapon (surprisingly I can use a Cernos modded/kitted for Alloy Armour (cold/radiation) to perform the same thing that Magnetic should be doing?  

I know there's several undocumented tweaks when fighting corpus where I can get a lucky good one shot on a bow if it's keys to Magnetic, but the shield-gating seems to trigger far harder and faster on Corpus from Jupiter and out than it should.  Isn't it the point of magnetic to create the necessary EMP effect to disrupt that from occurring?  

Maybe I'm hoping because of your popularity in the forums, the fact you're also part of the beta test group and the fact you tend to report playing mechanics far more than me (someone that usually specializes in reporting graphical, UI and minor mechanic glitches) they might listen.  

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

shield-gating causing gas to be pushed into the niche against shield-less enemies (particularly the Infested)

Shield gating has pretty much 0 impact on gas though? At least no more so than any non-toxin DoT. Gas is bad right now primarily because it’s capped to 10 procs and that “gas” (toxin/heat) mods don’t increase the damage. 

[BasKy]

I don't understand why someone would be against this.
 

hace 22 minutos, Loza03 dijo:

Again, almost any significant addition DE could make will affect at least a portion of the playerbase's investments significantly

This is very true and it reinforces OP's point. It doesn't matter that you checked a box that says you're OK with this, that's there only so you can't sue them. Every business needs to take care of it's customers (and they usally do, outside of the game industry). This is about not making the player waste time. Time is more important than Forma, I mean your real life time, and this game wastes a lot of it. DE agrees, otherwise they wouldn't make compensation scripts like they have done before.
 

hace 39 minutos, Loza03 dijo:

Should DE compensate players with vast bounties of forma, affinity boosters and potatoes every time they release an update that changes the meta?

Compensating with Forma because they require 24 hours to build, and an affinity booster because you need to rank up your gear every single time. The solution is clear to me. Make Forma building instantly and remove the rank reset. And I'm ignoring the resource requirements. Not sure about why the potato is there, were you being sarcastic?

By the way, if Vazarin was usefull we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. The real solution is making them all equally good so you will use at least one Vazarin on each build. Otherwise just delete the polarity unless you just want it to bring balance by being an annoyance.

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, BasKy said:

I don't understand why someone would be against this.
 

This is very true and it reinforces OP's point. It doesn't matter that you checked a box that says you're OK with this, that's there only so you can't sue them. Every business needs to take care of it's customers (and they usally do, outside of the game industry). This is about not making the player waste time. Time is more important than Forma, I mean your real life time, and this game wastes a lot of it. DE agrees, otherwise they wouldn't make compensation scripts like they have done before.
 

Compensating with Forma because they require 24 hours to build, and an affinity booster because you need to rank up your gear every single time. The solution is clear to me. Make Forma building instantly and remove the rank reset. And I'm ignoring the resource requirements. Not sure about why the potato is there, were you being sarcastic?

By the way, if Vazarin was usefull we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. The real solution is making them all equally good so you will use at least one Vazarin on each build. Otherwise just delete the polarity unless you just want it to bring balance by being an annoyance.

At which point I would like to remind everyone of a very simple fact.

Warframe's monetisation is pay to skip. This has been singularly one of the most important facts about the game's success since day one - you cannot buy power, only convenience and cosmetics - and for the latter, several of those are free too. 

This is not a pretty fact. But a fact it remains. DE makes money off Forma, and no small amount of it I should think. The fact that despite having neither reason to do so and reason against they continue to provide the player with any compensation whatsoever for free is already leagues better than other games which lie and cheat on the regular, which prey upon every penny you have, with systems that outright lock the player from even playing without paying a 'free' experience. Warframe offers everything for free, within a reasonable time span nevertheless, and through numerous avenues.

'Oh, it's not a fair argument to say it's free so shut up' - that much only applies to complaints not directly related to monetisation. Things like the quality of gameplay, the balance of the game, the rate of updates, etc. This game is already astoundingly generous with the fact it's offering thousands of hours without you having to spend the slightest amount of pocket change, and in many cases offers it at the same rate as paying customers who actually support the developers. And this thread, simply put, is asking for more.

 

Time is more important than Forma. The arrangement is, that if you do not believe you can spend the time, then you spend money instead. Although, even then, you don't even have to do that - you can offer other people things you've spent time on in exchange for Forma. Even in the face of a simple exchange, DE still offers you a route that means you don't personally have to support them.

So, if we want to continue, lets bare that in mind, all right?

[MBaldelli]

1 hour ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Shield gating has pretty much 0 impact on gas though? At last no more so than any non-toxin DoT. Gas is bad right now primarily because it’s capped to 10 procs and that “gas” (toxin/heat) mods don’t increase the damage. 

I sit corrected.  I knew they were reworked at about the same time as the shield-gating for both warframes and the corpus and really didn't want to play test them as Gas it at the bottom of my usage -- even for Infested.  I just read many of the forum comments and people have been complaining a lot about the shielding preventing gas from correctly proc'ing.  I didn't realize that it was tied into a max number of procs for it. 

I'll work that in the next time I have a hankering for play-testing gas damage. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Virals initially proc does what old Viral did but in a different method. That’s where most of the damage is coming from.

Nerfing Viral in any way will just kill it.

[BasKy]

hace 2 horas, Loza03 dijo:

At which point I would like to remind everyone of a very simple fact.

Warframe's monetisation is pay to skip. This has been singularly one of the most important facts about the game's success since day one - you cannot buy power, only convenience and cosmetics - and for the latter, several of those are free too. 

This is not a pretty fact. But a fact it remains. DE makes money off Forma, and no small amount of it I should think. The fact that despite having neither reason to do so and reason against they continue to provide the player with any compensation whatsoever for free is already leagues better than other games which lie and cheat on the regular, which prey upon every penny you have, with systems that outright lock the player from even playing without paying a 'free' experience. Warframe offers everything for free, within a reasonable time span nevertheless, and through numerous avenues.

'Oh, it's not a fair argument to say it's free so shut up' - that much only applies to complaints not directly related to monetisation. Things like the quality of gameplay, the balance of the game, the rate of updates, etc. This game is already astoundingly generous with the fact it's offering thousands of hours without you having to spend the slightest amount of pocket change, and in many cases offers it at the same rate as paying customers who actually support the developers. And this thread, simply put, is asking for more.

 

Time is more important than Forma. The arrangement is, that if you do not believe you can spend the time, then you spend money instead. Although, even then, you don't even have to do that - you can offer other people things you've spent time on in exchange for Forma. Even in the face of a simple exchange, DE still offers you a route that means you don't personally have to support them.

So, if we want to continue, lets bare that in mind, all right?

You don't need to be so pedantic, and yes they do have reasons to give compensation but that has already been said in this thread.

Bringing up predatory practices from other games doesn't change anything. You almost make it seem like DE does charity, as if they didn't make millions. Giving out some Forma will not hurt them in the slightest. Will it hurt you? Since you're so against this.

hace 2 horas, Loza03 dijo:

So, if we want to continue, lets bare that in mind, all right?

You can continue your conversation with that high horse you're on.

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, BasKy said:

You don't need to be so pedantic, and yes they do have reasons to give compensation but that has already been said in this thread.

Bringing up predatory practices from other games doesn't change anything. You almost make it seem like DE does charity, as if they didn't make millions. Giving out some Forma will not hurt them in the slightest. Will it hurt you? Since you're so against this.

It's not a case of it hurting them, it's the fact that you honestly have the gall to suggest that DE should offer you even more convenience for free, in a model which is, not only selling you convenience in experiencing a product (no charge for the product itself), not only letting you get part part of someone else's purchase for free, but still offering you convenience for free every now and then.

DE are a company, and yes they do make a hell of a lot of money (although in terms of raw profit, the costs of producing the game are a lot more than people think they are), and no, it wouldn't hurt. But let's be real here - despite that DE are nevertheless one of the most generous companies in terms of value for money. But apparently, that's still not enough for some people.