Some thoughts about Baruuk, and other Exalted Melee frames

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

These are some things that have been bugging me for quite some time, and I just want to say them. 
In his actual state, Baruuk isn’t a pacifist. You just can’t tell me a frame that copied Valkyr Talons stats, upgraded them, copied Excalibur’s waves in an upgraded form, and has like 6 different mechanics in the ability alone + some other in the combos and that is actually one of the best DPS frames in the game with a hybrid exalted weapon is a pacifist. He isn’t even a reluctant warrior, as his playstyle isn’t about trying to evade conflict, but deliberately seeking it as there is where he shines. Neither does he switch to “all-out offense” as the wiki says, as while he does he still has 90%+ DR and with a lot of CC, and one could think "all-out offense" is more akin to Banshee's playstyle. He feels more like an "assassin" AoE frame that is constantly building a resource so it can DPS and a lot tankier with good CC. He's just a nice and different concept that has ended up catering to the meta.
I would suggest something related to him, but the reason he is as he is is because the amount of flame received when his Exalted was a CC + raw damage powerhouse that literally only lacked the status chance (and that nowadays could be easily solved by getting something like Pillage or Fireblast), so I suppose there’s nothing to do if one wants to keep the general satisfaction with the frame.
So given this and the general mindset of just buff no nerf, maybe try to make other exalted melee frames as overpowered as him when you decide to touch them with melee 3.0 or whatever. Not that I enjoy the thought of any Excal / Baruuk / Wukong deleting rooms with either long range attacks or long range melee weapon (Valkyr is excluded as it seems there’s no way they give her talons any range, or any improvement in general), but swimming against the tide is tiring and just gets you drowned.
I would also like to conclude with the thought that while Baruuk has what he has Valkyr has a #*!%ing leap as the augment for her Exalted Melee, or one that gives her more raw damage and puts it on a cooldown while Baruuk doesn't have either a CD or a max duration on his ult. That’s something I have always wanted to point out too.

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

I would also like to conclude with the thought that while Baruuk has what he has Valkyr has a #*!%ing leap as the augment for her Exalted Melee, or one that gives her more raw damage and puts it on a cooldown while Baruuk doesn't have either a CD or a max duration on his ult.

There's a lot that can be said, but I don't like all the comparing. Valkyr's 4 also makes her invincible, status immune, CC immune, has life steel, doesn't require a second resource meter, etc..., which definitely pre-melee 3.0 warranted that she didn't need more damage; And shows how bonkers you can make anything look when you put it on paper.

Augments aren't equal, nor have they ever been. And while I don't think he needed the augment (if he got better restrain management), he's also the only good exalted melee frame now, so I don't want him to lose it.

5 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

In his actual state, Baruuk isn’t a pacifist. 

He isn’t even a reluctant warrior, as his playstyle isn’t about trying to evade conflict, but deliberately seeking it as there is where he shines.

Being a pacifist is different from being a coward. None of his other abilities do damage, and he is encouraged to not use weapons. He's not going to hide in a corner, he's going to be at the objective... slowly getting pissed off when the enemies don't reciprocate his pacifist ways.

[selig_fay]

I think valkyr does more damage than baruuk. Everything else is a problem that the exalted weapon restricts the mode (and perhaps the mode restricts the weapon, it's up to you). I want to emphasize that all exalted weapons are niche. Take dex pixia and peacemakers for example. The peacekeepers look more profitable, but put them up against the eidolons. Not so tasty anymore, right?

The problem here is not that the Valkyrie's claws are bad, but that such powerful damage is simply not needed, because there is no niche for this, since there are no enemies with such protection. Of course, unless you want to kill eidolons like valkyr, which is fun.

Rather, the problem here is that Hysteria is a separate mode that could work with normal weapons, but you have no choice, because claws. Put claws on a separate button and hysteria will get better, and claws will become a niche ability that you use against certain enemies.

But now, comparing baruuk fists and valkyr claws is about the same as putting rubico against ogris. Yes, rubico is not good for mobbing. Correct me if I am wrong.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Baruuk is not overpowered.

His Damage output is perfectly justified for the extra work you have to put in the cast his 4.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

There's a lot that can be said, but I don't like all the comparing.

Of course it's not about "both should have the same augments" as each frame has to be unique in some way. It's more about pointing out how "well" they did it with him, and how "abysmal / bad" they did it with Valkyr.

9 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And while I don't think he needed the augment (if he got better restrain management), he's also the only good exalted melee frame now, so I don't want him to lose it.

And that's why I said:

14 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

I would suggest something related to him, but the reason he is as he is is because the amount of flame received (...), so I suppose there’s nothing to do if one wants to keep the general satisfaction with the frame.

Aka, don't nerf him.

9 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Being a pacifist is different from being a coward. None of his other abilities do damage, and he is encouraged to not use weapons.

I don't know if I in some way implied I wanted him to be a "coward" but I don't. I understand the part of "surrender peacifully or by force", but that's one thing and the other is to turn into a frame whose main point is to be constantly depleting restraint so you can access one of the best weapons in the game and start DPS'ing, killing everything in sight and not, and said frame being the pacifist / reluctant warrior. Also he's pretty encouraged to use his own weapon, I think.

 

5 hours ago, selig_fay said:

I think valkyr does more damage than baruuk. (...)

The peacekeepers look more profitable, but put them up against the eidolons. Not so tasty anymore, right?

But now, comparing baruuk fists and valkyr claws is about the same as putting rubico against ogris. Yes, rubico is not good for mobbing. Correct me if I am wrong.

Just so I don't quote so much imma leave it like this.

First, I don't think she deals more damage, having in mind he has the same stats as her (but with extra SC), hits twice per strike, and adapts the base impact damage to the most damaging element the enemy you are hitting is vulnerable to. She may have more DPS with a slide attack macro or something, but Baruuk has the same exact number of hits along the multiplier, so their DPS should still be the same (on paper, once Baruuk starts stacking virals because he has ~60%+ more SC the gap widens).

Second, while I don't agree as much with the Mesa thing, I agree other melee EW's can be seen as niche, which is why I say they should be treated as well as DW was.

And finally, I didn't mean to compare both weapons. Each one should be special. I just wanted to point out how Valk's augments have had little repercussion, while Baruuk's one made him what he is. Still, I don't find your example accurate. Before the augment came I did share this opinion, as it seemed Hysteria had the kill potential and DW had the damage but traded KP for (maybe a bit too much) CC and disruptive effects, and both had their own restraints and way of making their user invincible / incredibly hard to kill, but once the augment came and DW got the same or even more KP Hysteria had I see little benefits for the latter outside being free-casteable.

Also, just because of the Rubico vs Ogris comparison and the Valk on eidolons thing, I will suppose you are not implying she's any better at them than him. If anything, DW's waves should hit multiple parts at the same time and multiply their DPS for each part, or both will just slide attack the legs / back, and in any case your team will think you are trolling.      If you were referring to her being better at single target than him, then read the first paragraph.

 

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Baruuk is not overpowered.

His Damage output is perfectly justified for the extra work you have to put in the cast his 4.

I mean depends on where you put the bar right, there were people that found old nuke trin not overpowered as it required investing (no second meanings here).

Still, I have always had problems with this argument, but I don't find his restraint difficult to erode. His 3 isn't great but is consistent, using his 1 in front of 3 lancers / moas / a single flux rifle crewman can completely erode the restraint in <10 seconds. And Lull can erode half of it on a single cast, in about 8 seconds.

Spoiler

 

It's really not so difficult to keep it low. 

Still, as I knew this would be the opinion most (if not all) of the community conveniently or not has, is why my main point is that the other EW frames should be treated as good, within their context. But then again, if a somewhat-affordable secondary resource is enough to justify this, I don't know what would correspond to other certain things.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Of course it's not about "both should have the same augments" as each frame has to be unique in some way. It's more about pointing out how "well" they did it with him, and how "abysmal / bad" they did it with Valkyr.

And that's why I said:

Aka, don't nerf him.

I don't know if I in some way implied I wanted him to be a "coward" but I don't. I understand the part of "surrender peacifully or by force", but that's one thing and the other is to turn into a frame whose main point is to be constantly depleting restraint so you can access one of the best weapons in the game and start DPS'ing, killing everything in sight and not, and said frame being the pacifist / reluctant warrior. Also he's pretty encouraged to use his own weapon, I think.

 

Just so I don't quote so much imma leave it like this.

First, I don't think she deals more damage, having in mind he has the same stats as her (but with extra SC), hits twice per strike, and adapts the base impact damage to the most damaging element the enemy you are hitting is vulnerable to. She may have more DPS with a slide attack macro or something, but Baruuk has the same exact number of hits along the multiplier, so their DPS should still be the same (on paper, once Baruuk starts stacking virals because he has ~60%+ more SC the gap widens).

Second, while I don't agree as much with the Mesa thing, I agree other melee EW's can be seen as niche, which is why I say they should be treated as well as DW was.

And finally, I didn't mean to compare both weapons. Each one should be special. I just wanted to point out how Valk's augments have had little repercussion, while Baruuk's one made him what he is. Still, I don't find your example accurate. Before the augment came I did share this opinion, as it seemed Hysteria had the kill potential and DW had the damage but traded KP for (maybe a bit too much) CC and disruptive effects, and both had their own restraints and way of making their user invincible / incredibly hard to kill, but once the augment came and DW got the same or even more KP Hysteria had I see little benefits for the latter outside being free-casteable.

Also, just because of the Rubico vs Ogris comparison and the Valk on eidolons thing, I will suppose you are not implying she's any better at them than him. If anything, DW's waves should hit multiple parts at the same time and multiply their DPS for each part, or both will just slide attack the legs / back, and in any case your team will think you are trolling.      If you were referring to her being better at single target than him, then read the first paragraph.

 

I mean depends on where you put the bar right, there were people that found old nuke trin not overpowered as it required investing (no second meanings here).

Still, I have always had problems with this argument, but I don't find his restraint difficult to erode. His 3 isn't great but is consistent, using his 1 in front of 3 lancers / moas / a single flux rifle crewman can completely erode the restraint in <10 seconds. And Lull can erode half of it on a single cast, in about 8 seconds.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It's really not so difficult to keep it low. 

Still, as I knew this would be the opinion most (if not all) of the community conveniently or not has, is why my main point is that the other EW frames should be treated as good, within their context. But then again, if a somewhat-affordable secondary resource is enough to justify this, I don't know what would correspond to other certain things.

Well my bar is firmly placed at “dealing more than 10 damage is not OP”.

IDK what’s with peoples absolute loathing at the idea of DPS abilities existing. Either they do their job and kill the enemy, or they’re useless. Making a non lethal damage ability is like making a spoon with holes in it.

[KitMeHarder]

7 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

killing everything in sight and not, and said frame being the pacifist / reluctant warrior. Also he's pretty encouraged to use his own weapon, I think.

I mean he is a reluctant warrior, the community has just found a way to work around that because no one wants to play a micromanage afk Inaros in this meta or any meta. And I said the weapon part because his 1 turns off when you attack.

[Teridax68]

I would perhaps not compare as much with other frames, as Baruuk isn't really Excalibur or Valkyr, but I can agree that he really fails to deliver his pacifist theme, because he is in no way encouraged to be a pacifist. If they gave him an effect that let him progress through missions by, say, evading enemy fire, he'd get a lot closer to that theme, but as it stands he's a frame who fights and kills as much as any other.

As for making other Exalted weapon frames as strong as Baruuk, I'm ambivalent: on one hand, I do agree that many Exalted weapons got left in the dust with Melee 3.0, and there is no reason for them not to be able to equip Acolyte mods now that those have been rebalanced, nor any other mod for that matter. On the other hand, the problem with Exalted weapons in general boils down to the same: so long as Warframe continues to power creep its arsenal, which happens less frequently now but still on occasion, frames with weapons baked into their kit will inevitably be powercreeped out, which means that they may continue to need buffs at some unspecified later point in time just to keep up. Thus, we're stuck on a treadmill, where either Exalted weapons are at least as competitive as the strongest weapon out there, at which point frames with those Exalted weapons use only those and nothing else, or they aren't, at which point those Exalted weapons aren't used at all. It's not great for diversity of play, and it makes me question the existence of Exalted weapons as active abilities.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I would perhaps not compare as much with other frames, as Baruuk isn't really Excalibur or Valkyr, but I can agree that he really fails to deliver his pacifist theme, because he is in no way encouraged to be a pacifist. If they gave him an effect that let him progress through missions by, say, evading enemy fire, he'd get a lot closer to that theme, but as it stands he's a frame who fights and kills as much as any other.

Em. I may be crazy, but doesn't he do it?

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Em. I may be crazy, but doesn't he do it?

He evades enemy fire, but that doesn't make him progress through missions. In fact, it does the opposite, as his evasion only activates when not attacking, and the only way you progress through most missions is by killing stuff.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I mean he is a reluctant warrior, the community has just found a way to work around that because no one wants to play a micromanage afk Inaros in this meta or any meta.

He is so by concept and abilities, but not in practice according to the second part of that phrase (the community has found a way to work around him being a reluctant warrior and has made him a "willing DPS"). Besides this is mostly because he is allowed and encouraged to be one, given it's also his most effective playstyle and the best in general most of the time within the game. Most frames respect their role with their theme, like for example Trin being a support isn't allowed to DPS (maybe EV shenaningans, but 1 enemy at a time), and Saryn being a DPS will as much help her teammates with her Spore augment, because she's supposed to be an offensive frame due to her theme. Baruuks role as a "pacifist" that is indeed pacifist due to him having several sources of CC and damage negation / mitigation plus ally buffs, but that is also an excellent AoE DPS frame is as inconsistent as it is clashing.

Now, I'm not saying he shouldn't kick ass after "having his restraint eroded" due to the reluctant part, but maybe he's kicking a bit too much ass for a pacifist in his actual state, or at least shouldn't be as willing to do it due to the former, which is my point, as so is that it "shouldn't" be taken from him due to reasons related to the meta as you mentioned and instead other things should be done.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If they gave him an effect that let him progress through missions by, say, evading enemy fire, he'd get a lot closer to that theme

I agree a pacifist should "achieve victory" by other way less violent means (f.e., he could have a mechanic that made enemies "understand his ways". Instead of killing them, each enemy he disarms, forces to sleep, or dodges attacks would eventually surrender, act as if they died (give drops, aff...) and just retire (in a way, it would be like killing enemies over time with Spores, tougher enemies requiring more "damage" to be convinced, except...) . Other more stubborn enemies would have to be dealt with force, perhaps even killing them if they can't be reasoned with (f.e. bosses, most Infesteds...)). But admitedly this might be way too big of a system for a single warframe, and maybe what DE should have done is just not make him a pacifist in the first place. It contrasts so much that you either adapt it so it makes sense or make what they have done, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As for making other Exalted weapon frames as strong as Baruuk, I'm ambivalent

I mean, if he can have what he has, why shouldn't the others have their own thing/s that make them as equally good, within their context? (f.e., Excal can freecast for 2.5/s, Baruuk has restraint, so Excal shouldn't have as much power as him, but neither stay so behind...)

Still, I also see the problem of perpetual powercreep that this game seems condemned to have, but 2 things: First, I don't know what DE has planned but I find it difficult, if even possible, to powercreep weapons like DW, so if the others are given a similar level of power they shouldn't be at risk either. And second, given that as you say it may happen that if EWs reach a certain level of power, other normal weapons could eventually reach / surpass that power, then an IMO simple solution is to give said high "static" power to EWs, and make them scale slightly / very slightly with the "dynamic" power of normal weapons. Without limits it would eventually lead to extremely absurd results, but if DE can't moderate the powercreep enough to respect these weapons due to the ever-more-exigent powerfantasy it's probably one of the few solutions.

[KitMeHarder]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Most frames respect their role with their theme, like for example Trin being a support isn't allowed to DPS (maybe EV shenaningans, but 1 enemy at a time), and Saryn being a DPS will as much help her teammates with her Spore augment, because she's supposed to be an offensive frame due to her theme. Baruuks role as a "pacifist" that is indeed pacifist due to him having several sources of CC and damage negation / mitigation plus ally buffs, but that is also an excellent AoE DPS frame is as inconsistent as it is clashing.

• Trinity used to be one of the best room nukers in the game. And anyone can become one now with the Helminth system. Slap Thermal Sunder, Defy, Mark for Death, etc... on any frame.
• Saryn is supposed to be a room nuker, but there is a build for her that turns her into a tank buster like Chroma.

I've never been keen on playable characters in any game having to conform to their intended design, in the case that the community has found a build that works and is fun, especially for PvE. And Baruuk is described as a imperfect/in-training pacifist, he is prone to giving into temptation. The community just knows how to make use of negative power stats, and that's what gives birth to builds like EV Trin, Speedva, etc... Baruuk is a pacifist, the tenno controlling him are not.

How would you make him more of a pacifist without turning him into a micromanage Inaros that doesn't get enough damage for the effort put in, causing no one to play him?

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

17 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

IDK what’s with peoples absolute loathing at the idea of DPS abilities existing.

Tried to quote you on the other post but it seems it just doesn't work and I don't why I didn't see your message before.

I'm not against damage / DPS abilities, nor am I against DW or asking for it to go away. I'm just pointing out a frame like Baruuk having said ability (and I'm not even talking about the concept of it, but rather the potential it develops in practice) is a bit weird, at least to me.

 

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Trinity used to be one of the best room nukers in the game. And anyone can become one now with the Helminth system. Slap Thermal Sunder, Defy, Mark for Death, etc... on any frame.
• Saryn is supposed to be a room nuker, but there is a build for her that turns her into a tank buster like Chroma.

Trinity used. Also, I wouldn't mention Helminth when talking about abilities respective to a frame's theme precisely because of that, because it starts to mix things, and themes suddenly make no sense because you can have a Trin that stacks 10 virals, uses MfD and EV and makes things happen.

Tho I understand where you are coming with that and the Saryn example, but I mean, I think I'm not exaggerating when I say there's an irregularity in Baruuk's case, as Saryn's theme doesn't necessarily imply she has to be squishy (although for balance reasons isn't made innately tanky outside HP) and does somewhat imply poor team synergy (since how is a disease / poison / whatever related based frame supposed to help its allies? Mostly what she does, weakening enemies via Viral and Corrosive procs, and giving poison effects to their weapons via Spore aug), but a pacifist theme directly implies no violence, and a reluctant warrior theme implies that the character tries to evade conflict, not encouraging deliberately seeking it and partaking in it.

Not denying Saryn can't be tanky, nor asking for Baruuk to stop being a DPS frame. The same reason I "don't" want one to become squishy according to her role is the same reason I don't want the other to lose his DPS. Because powerfantasy or something.

35 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• And Baruuk is described as a imperfect/in-training pacifist, he is prone to giving into temptation. (...) Baruuk is a pacifist, the tenno controlling him are not.

I have never heard about the first part, but it won't change anything to ask you to provide source so I won't. For the second part, Baruuk is the one that has the weapon that defines his playstyle which conflicts with his theme, in his own kit, along the other pacifist abilities. The Tenno do decide to use it. It's not like the Tenno give him his fists.

43 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

How would you make him more of a pacifist without turning him into a micromanage Inaros that doesn't get enough damage for the effort put in, causing no one to play him?

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

I agree a pacifist should "achieve victory" by other way less violent means (f.e., he could have a mechanic that made enemies "understand his ways". Instead of killing them, each enemy he disarms, forces to sleep, or dodges attacks would eventually surrender, act as if they died (give drops, aff...) and just retire (in a way, it would be like killing enemies over time with Spores, tougher enemies requiring more "damage" to be convinced, except...) . Other more stubborn enemies would have to be dealt with force, perhaps even killing them if they can't be reasoned with (f.e. bosses, most Infesteds...)). But admitedly this might be way too big of a system for a single warframe, and maybe what DE should have done is just not make him a pacifist in the first place.

I don't think a pacifist wins by killing, but by putting people to their side. For those stubborn, is where the reluctant warrior thing would come in. So something among those lines. As teridax pointed out, he wins nothing out of trying to be a pacifist, so just a system that compensates him for actually trying to do peace (this also implies that the amount of time the enemies take to surrender due to be affected by his abilities should be proportional to killing them with a weapon (otherwise everyone would still resort to them), or / and would have some extra mechanic that incentivized this playstyle, like maybe surrendered enemies would drop more resources / affinity or something).

Still, and then again, my main point was making other frames as good as him, not changing him in any way.

[KitMeHarder]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

I have never heard about the first part, but it won't change anything to ask you to provide source so I won't.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

For those stubborn, is where the reluctant warrior thing would come in.

The whole thing about the restraint gauge is what makes him an imperfect pacifist. A true monk/pacifist/religious devotee would not break their doctrine. If you are against violence, a true pacifist would not fight back even if someone hits you. If you are not supposed to give in to sexual desire, you wouldn't cave just because a nice piece of ass walked by. If you aren't supposed to have worldly desires, you won't start collecting floofs just cause you were really really bored one day.

The whole concept of the restraint gauge makes him a imperfect pacifist, a reluctant warrior. So not a pacifist, but warrior that fights even though he knows he shouldn't. And all enemies are stubborn. Even if you take their weapons away and force them to sleep, they still come at you with knifes when they wake up.

And they talked about him in this way when they introduced him in devstream 120. Baruuk's part starts around 21:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV-HoxYP6hs&has_verified=1

28 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

or / and would have some extra mechanic that incentivized this playstyle, like maybe surrendered enemies would drop more resources / affinity or something).

So something like Ivern from League of Legends, where if a disarmed enemy is put to sleep they despawn and drop bonus loot? Works for me, but it's just a different type of "killing" and still works with the DPS playstyle.

31 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Still, and then again, my main point was making other frames as good as him, not changing him in any way.

I get 'cha. This has more turned into me just seeing why you think he is such a pure pacifist. But yeah, I long for the day that Iron Staff is good again.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Tried to quote you on the other post but it seems it just doesn't work and I don't why I didn't see your message before.

I'm not against damage / DPS abilities, nor am I against DW or asking for it to go away. I'm just pointing out a frame like Baruuk having said ability (and I'm not even talking about the concept of it, but rather the potential it develops in practice) is a bit weird, at least to me.

 

Trinity used. Also, I wouldn't mention Helminth when talking about abilities respective to a frame's theme precisely because of that, because it starts to mix things, and themes suddenly make no sense because you can have a Trin that stacks 10 virals, uses MfD and EV and makes things happen.

Tho I understand where you are coming with that and the Saryn example, but I mean, I think I'm not exaggerating when I say there's an irregularity in Baruuk's case, as Saryn's theme doesn't necessarily imply she has to be squishy (although for balance reasons isn't made innately tanky outside HP) and does somewhat imply poor team synergy (since how is a disease / poison / whatever related based frame supposed to help its allies? Mostly what she does, weakening enemies via Viral and Corrosive procs, and giving poison effects to their weapons via Spore aug), but a pacifist theme directly implies no violence, and a reluctant warrior theme implies that the character tries to evade conflict, not encouraging deliberately seeking it and partaking in it.

Not denying Saryn can't be tanky, nor asking for Baruuk to stop being a DPS frame. The same reason I "don't" want one to become squishy according to her role is the same reason I don't want the other to lose his DPS. Because powerfantasy or something.

I have never heard about the first part, but it won't change anything to ask you to provide source so I won't. For the second part, Baruuk is the one that has the weapon that defines his playstyle which conflicts with his theme, in his own kit, along the other pacifist abilities. The Tenno do decide to use it. It's not like the Tenno give him his fists.

 

I don't think a pacifist wins by killing, but by putting people to their side. For those stubborn, is where the reluctant warrior thing would come in. So something among those lines. As teridax pointed out, he wins nothing out of trying to be a pacifist, so just a system that compensates him for actually trying to do peace (this also implies that the amount of time the enemies take to surrender due to be affected by his abilities should be proportional to killing them with a weapon (otherwise everyone would still resort to them), or / and would have some extra mechanic that incentivized this playstyle, like maybe surrendered enemies would drop more resources / affinity or something).

Still, and then again, my main point was making other frames as good as him, not changing him in any way.

I’m “under probation”. My messages have to be approved before they can be seen.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The whole thing about the restraint gauge is what makes him an imperfect pacifist. A true monk/pacifist/religious devotee would not break their doctrine. If you are against violence, a true pacifist would not fight back even if someone hits you. (...)

The whole concept of the restraint gauge makes him a imperfect pacifist, a reluctant warrior. So not a pacifist, but warrior that fights even though he knows he shouldn't. And all enemies are stubborn.

I feel this is going circular, so I won't incede further into my point, even tho I will probably do at some point.

Btw I saw the entire thing from the Earth MD to the Void Survival, and even tho I admitedly could have missed something, the only thing I heard them (Scott I think) say is "He doesn't want to hurt you, but he doesn't want you to hurt him", which is indeed reluctant but clashing with how he is optimally played, and a mention about how his style just doesn't fit and that's why he has a weapon, throwing the entire pacifist thing out of the window and simply making him a """reluctant""" warrior as you say. The stubborn part was only for my proposal, right now the reason he can't be a pacifist is because the game isn't designed for one.

Also, not really as related but couldn't help but notice how he used some of Hysteria combos with his in-development DW (upward "slashes", some quick side "punch" before them, the slide attack), so it seems the stats aren't the only thing they copied on the process of making the weapon, although they did forget to change them (jk).

19 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

So something like Ivern from League of Legends, where if a disarmed enemy is put to sleep they despawn and drop bonus loot? Works for me, but it's just a different type of "killing" and still works with the DPS playstyle.

Yes, it's a raw concept but something like that. And of course the final results would be similar to those a DPS / normal Warframe would achieve, because most of the time this game is about getting rid of the mobs, but the way in which he achieves that effect would be different (like Ivern, maybe a normal jungler has taken 10 seconds to take down the red buff, and Ivern has also taken 10 secs, but instead of fighting with it he has just made peace / liberated the creature, and he has a bonus for doing it that way (tho in Ivern's case I think he would just die early if he tried to fight the monsters, but maybe you could see it as him having a bonus due to speeding up the process / sharing the buff with an ally / being able to quickly steal an enemy camp). Other more stubborn enemies, such as Baron, would have to be dealt with by force).

19 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

This has more turned into me just seeing why you think he is such a pure pacifist. But yeah, I long for the day that Iron Staff is good again.

Literally from the wiki:

• Virtuously guided by his noble discipline, the pacific monk Baruuk invokes sacred runes to evade conflict and bring blissful calm to endless strife...
• Themes: Monk, Pacifist
• Baruuk is described as a "pacifist Warframe" and "reluctant hero", someone who normally avoids combat...
• As a pacifist, who is typically against taking offensive actions, this may explain why he doesn't have any signature firearms.

Not a pure, extremely pure, literal boxing bag with legs, but neither a DPS with a restraint so he doesn't get out of control as he seems to be now. When someone regarded as being the pacifist is more adept at killing than Nito (regarding the miasma of death), the best gunslinger in the stars, a ninja assassin leader of the greatest (???) order of ninja assassins..., maybe the part where the pacifist kicks ass is a bit overtuned. Perhaps he could share a bit with Inaros, who is regarded as a "God King" and is the literal boxing bag with legs, he's even full of sand.

And yes, I also long for the day, tho it seems to never come.