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Please Don't Remove Arcwing Missions


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The single biggest reason not to do this is leveling arc gear. guns can be leveled in normal missions with the deployer, but arcwings themselves and arcmele will be borderline impossible to level up without these missions. archwings can't survive in open worlds because you guys have lovingly decided that arcwings are op in open world combat and so need a hard counter in the form of enemies that can one shot them out of the sky regardless of level or abilities. any archwing except amesha can't survive in railjack due to the ridiculous enemy scaling as I'm sure you're all very aware of by now, and on top of that can't do any damage to railjack enemies which you guys made sure of intentionally.

I see arcwing's major failure as attributed mostly to one major factor (aside from it simply not getting the tlc it needs) which is barrier to entry.  you're introduced to it early in the game, and made required to do it to progress, but reaching a point where you're not struggling to complete arcwing missions is a massive undertaking, and this is the primary reason so may people dislike it at this point. the control overhaul with railjack fixed it's movement which was it's one other major problems tho it could still use some work. the rest is a lack of quality of life features regular gameplay has. Arcanes, aura's, companions, operator abilities, and a diverse set of abilities capable of hannling any mission type. for example arcwing interception feels really bad, because there is no ability that makes it any easier. it simply dosn't feel as fleshed out as the rest of the game. which makes it feel boring in comparison.

But removing the missions that allow players to smoothly build up their skill and arsenal of arcwing mods will dramatically raise the barrier to entry for other arcwing related content to a massive degree. this I think might even lead to potentially repeated failures to prevent fomorians from taking out relays. an increased hatred of the jordas fight, and as I'm sure is more relevant to your own interest as the developers currently, an increased disdain for railjack across the entirety of the new playerbase.

Arcwing missions dont need to be removed. They need to be expanded, and improved upon. That's what they've always needed, and what a great deal of people wanted to see from them. my suggestion? allow sentinels to be used in arcwing missions, make the weapons accessible without needing to go through syndicates or clans, add aura's and expand the mod collection of all arcwing related gear. separate arcwing loadouts for in-atmosphere and outer-space. separate the arcwing missions from the main planet progression, instead making the separated nodes like jordas and mutalyst alad v, accessible at any time after unlocking the planet. add more missions, at least one of each mission type for each faction. and definitely some general polish and qol additions, like being able to use context action on a downed ally to zip to their location to revive them instead of fiddling with trying to stay close enough to them for it to work, fixing enemy pathing, fixing mele lock on from launching you a million miles past the target you were aiming at, adding some invisible walls that block some points that are easy to get trapped in, exct.

Me and a lot of people I know actually love the arcwing missions, and most people I know that hate them, only hate them because of how unpolished arcwing as a whole is. A large arcwing overhaul and expansion would honestly renew my interest in the game, and make me exited to continue playing it. Giving up and trashing large chunks of the game that have large rippling effects on the rest of it like this, doesn't instill great confidence in me that this game is ever going to find it's legs again and begin to improve. Especially as I witness those legs actively being cut off.

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I always felt like the AW missions were only ever half developed and was waiting on them to expand with things like Corpus Enemies, Archwing syndicate missions, new mission types, etc. Removing them is a poorly thought out and overall horrible idea for all the reasons you stated and then some. I DO NOT however agree they need to be made easier to access, I took a multi year hiatus not long after the Archwings were originally released because the recent content had felt half completed and it drove pretty much everyone I played with off the game so perhaps things are different now but making things easier to access is NOT what this game needs at all.

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15 hours ago, LucianDeRomeo said:

I always felt like the AW missions were only ever half developed and was waiting on them to expand with things like Corpus Enemies, Archwing syndicate missions, new mission types, etc. Removing them is a poorly thought out and overall horrible idea for all the reasons you stated and then some. I DO NOT however agree they need to be made easier to access, I took a multi year hiatus not long after the Archwings were originally released because the recent content had felt half completed and it drove pretty much everyone I played with off the game so perhaps things are different now but making things easier to access is NOT what this game needs at all.

The ease of acess thing is more an issue of, players are given acess to arcwing missions fairly early, but none of the gear. you HAVE to go through two opposing syndicates to get any of the non-starter guns or mele asside from grattler and knux. Which is something new players with an abysmal daily standing cap, at the point of the game that the stuff syndicates ask for to progress is extremely valuable and scarce, are going to have an extremely difficult and time consuming time getting (tho this has been partially fixed with the upcoming increase to the starting daily standing cap). and you need to go through clans to get any of the non-syndicate archwing stuff, which forces newbes to join a clan that already has it, which might not be what they want to do, or go through a different long and grueling grind to access it. Mainly, it's about first impressions. Entering a new game mode and immediately getting hit with a several month long grind wall to get better equipment to make that game mode enjoyable is a pretty fast way to lose interest in something.

And since arcwing is a progression requirement, this forces players starting the game to go through arcwing with trash gear which makes the missions feel needlessly difficult and painfull, especially with little in the way of opportunities to level your arc gear and get mods for it, decreasing the overall player opinion of it. This is all exactly what happened to railjack on its release, except railjack is only a requirement late game, is completely separated from the rest of the game, and they actually fixed a lot of barrier to entry issues with it once they realized it was a problem.

But I suppose if they made every other change I outlined, added a few new but weaker arc weapons into the market, and depending on the accessibility of the upcoming modular arcwings, the syndicate and clan barrier to the current gear wouldn't be as big of an issue.

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1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

Mainly, it's about first impressions. Entering a new game mode and immediately getting hit with a several month long grind wall to get better equipment to make that game mode enjoyable is a pretty fast way to lose interest in something.

That's what hit me with RJ. Over complicated mission and no "easy" way to progress. 
With archwing, how bad it was, you could just join clan, buy stuffs, upgrade it on the lowest missions. If they require RJ to progress... then I will just stay with my Helminth + buy some stuffs for plat...

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I don't really think the RJ barrier to entry issues on release are in any way comparable to Archwing's, which has a fairly easy start imo..

Personally i never had any problem with it and as far as i remember i even played some AW sorties as a newb and found them to be pretty fun, even with my gears at that time, regardless the majority(?) complained and got them removed  not long after for "reasons" even though they weren't particularly hard compared to normal sorties if you knew what you you were doing.

Otherwise i agree with most of your points.

I would hate it if RJ was the only way to level AW stuff as i like AW and dislike the RJ mode, i will just level it at some point for mastery and never touch it again.

Adding endless mode along with the ones you mentioned would add some incentive for people to get a stronger AW without unnecessarily making it mandatory.

I would like AW fissures, AW Survival, AW Sorties (as optional, separate from normal Sorties)f.ex..

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On 2020-10-12 at 6:03 AM, PollexMessier said:

Arcwing missions dont need to be removed. They need to be expanded, and improved upon. That's what they've always needed, and what a great deal of people wanted to see from them.

Depending on implementation, this is exactly what they are doing, dismissing semantics here... Joining RJ and AW has great potential to enhance them both. It is entirely possible that there will be "RJ" missions with a greater AW focus.

I don't mind AW, never really did. Right now it has not kept up with updates to archmelee mechanics and flight improvements, so DE is at an impasse, fix the old stuff or move on. If this is part of a step towards a more integrated world, connected by RJ as they talked about 2(?) years ago now, that would be great.

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On 2020-10-12 at 5:03 AM, PollexMessier said:

guns can be leveled in normal missions with the deployer

That's a terrible idea. You'd be gating AW gun levelling behind a hefty grind of a high-level syndicate which sits at the opposite end of a long quest chain (operators required to access Solaris United) to the acquisition of Archwings themselves (which are a pre-requisite to Natah, the quest at the very beginning of the Sentient questline, since that takes place on Uranus).

Not only that, but each weapon would need a hefty investment of resources to even start levelling that way (gravimags are not cheap) and your uptime with archwing weapons on the ground is extremely low (because of the extremely low ammunition frequency).

But back to your original point - I agree. I actually liked archwing a lot even though I never had much cause to play it. I'd be sad to see it go away.

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I'm still in the camp that the last arcwing fix made things much worse, IMO the weapons need to be reverted to being mission rewards for the actual AW missions, they really don't make sense as mostly syndicate rewards, and I'm glad I got them from the loot drop method before they changed it, that made AW missions have a point to them.
As for removing the AW missions entirely, ouch.
Open world maps pretty much allow AW only for travel, everything there has one shot AW-veto homing missile spam, so no getting AW xp that way.
And they are WAY too flimsy for Railjack, getting one shot down regularly on the higher missions, and the low ones don't give enough affinity to it.
I tried formaing one of mine in railjack play, while playing the event, my advice:
DONT.
Seriously, just do the mobile defense AW mission, it takes about 10% of the time of trying it in railjack.

And wow I'm going to just not log in for a month if they add more AW's to level AND remove AW missions like I keep hearing about, no, just no.

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9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

That's a terrible idea. You'd be gating AW gun levelling behind a hefty grind of a high-level syndicate which sits at the opposite end of a long quest chain (operators required to access Solaris United) to the acquisition of Archwings themselves (which are a pre-requisite to Natah, the quest at the very beginning of the Sentient questline, since that takes place on Uranus).

Not only that, but each weapon would need a hefty investment of resources to even start levelling that way (gravimags are not cheap) and your uptime with archwing weapons on the ground is extremely low (because of the extremely low ammunition frequency).

But back to your original point - I agree. I actually liked archwing a lot even though I never had much cause to play it. I'd be sad to see it go away.

yes that's a good point. Getting to a point where you can level arcguns with the deployer is a huge grind wall in itself, so that isn't even good ether outside of players that have played long enough to be able to do that fairly easily. So you're right there's pretty much no reasonable way to level any arc gear for the majority of players without the regular arcwing missions, which only reinforces the rest of what I was saying.

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I've been playing for about a month.  The first exposure to Archwing is a little jarring, but kinda fun.  The gun is cool, and you get blow stuff up.  Then it is over, set aside, and you don't worry about it.  The second mission I did was the chase through the Corpus ship.  I had not developed the skills for it, was not familiar enough with the controls, had very few mods, etc.  I failed miserably several times before giving up.  Except it is required to progress.  I went and did other stuff and came back to it, failed miserably four more times before getting lucky enough to Public Match with somebody who knew what they were doing.  Then I set the Archwing aside because my experience sucked and figured I would do my best to ignore that side of the game.  I avoided Archwing, going around it at Saturn.  Now I'm at Uranus and hating Archwing.  I know I should "git gud" as the community says, but I've lost all interest in Archwing due to the experiences I've had. 

Right now, with my level of frustration with Archwing, I would vote to rip it out, or at least set it to the side as something players can do, but isn't necessary for any particular progression.  The problem is my experience moved me from "This is interesting" to "This sucks avoid it" very quickly.  Dispassionately, I think it could be kept, but would need to be reworked expose new players to it in ways that make them look FOR Archwing missions, instead of avoiding them.

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1 hour ago, Lazarus0516 said:

Right now, with my level of frustration with Archwing, I would vote to rip it out, or at least set it to the side as something players can do,

From what I understand they want to get rid of normal Archwing missions and they want to put Railjack, which is Archwing + your huge ship. So you (or new players) would have hard time leveling their arch-weapons. Some people like RJ but I hate it. I get "hard" time leveling archwing but in case of RJ it's so grindy that I don't care.
So think before you want to get rid of archwing... you may get into bigger trouble. ;)

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I've been playing for about 2 months.

The archwing (for me) hasn't gotten any more fun than the first mission.

My starter gun and and melee are max, but my wing is about 25.  I did intend to spend 1 night leveling it early on, but I was immediately hit with this bug twice in a row:

 

I don't know if it was that exact same mission, but I just wouldn't extract when on the spot.

Unlocking the star map, I came across the Pandora mission.  Went in as a duo (we had starter weapons).  We just simply couldn't damage it enough to complete.  Looked up and it everyone advises non-starter weapons.  See that they're locked behind competing Syndicates.  Stop caring about the Pandora mission (I'll grind up all Syndicates eventually - if I stick with the game, but at this point I will forget about it until it's my last mission needed to unlock all nodes - I'm 8 away right now - mostly in the Kuva Fortress).

As for Railjack - when this popped up on Nightwave 2/3 weeks ago, I started the quest.  Was interested in seeing what Railjacks were.  Found the first part and went to the Dojo (my clan is smaller and the Dry Dock wasn't built).  Started building the dry dock.  Did most of it myself.  Went to build 1st part.  Saw 6 hour wait time.  Looked up quest on wiki.  Saw 5 more steps with 30 more hours wait time.  Immediately stopped caring about Railjacks.  Am now building part 5 (Nightwave again).  Why hasn't this quest taught me what a railjack mission is?  The missions are just defenses with a bit of zone control and capture/exterm mechanics thrown in.  Is that what Railjacks are?  Don't care at all anymore (but want the Nightwave rep).

Right now, neither of these modes either (archwing) ARE fun or (railjack) interesting to me.  Archwing missions and gameplay feels half-developed (at best).  The Railjack quest is terrible.  Combining them off in a corner together (as long as frame and frame weapons and mods aren't locked behind them) sounds great.

Either that or making them more enjoyable and more accessible (weapon part drops and the railjack quest being not ass).

But maybe I'll love Railjacks?  I'll try it.  But the quest has most definitely put me off of caring to get to it (apart from Nightwave rep).

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2 hours ago, Wheelhouser said:

Unlocking the star map, I came across the Pandora mission.  Went in as a duo (we had starter weapons).  We just simply couldn't damage it enough to complete.  Looked up and it everyone advises non-starter weapons.  See that they're locked behind competing Syndicates.  Stop caring about the Pandora mission (I'll grind up all Syndicates eventually - if I stick with the game, but at this point I will forget about it until it's my last mission needed to unlock all nodes - I'm 8 away right now - mostly in the Kuva Fortress).

Some of the AW weapons are locked behind clan research, a good way to get started with AW would be to either start a solo clan or join a clan and start researching.

Also as there is no rush, Baro also brings some of the best archwing mods (the primed ones), plus a Prisma Veritux, which is good and the Fomorian event drops one of the 'endgame' viable AW weapons, the Imperator Vandal.

Liches also have a chance to drop a Kuva Ayanga, which i think is decent.

Personally i also think locking weapons behind syndicates was a bad decision as i can't access half of them as an MR26 who is invested in archwing and i refuse to trade for them.

I would have got them all long ago if they still dropped from archwing missions.

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On 2020-10-16 at 7:19 AM, Lazarus0516 said:

I've been playing for about a month.  The first exposure to Archwing is a little jarring, but kinda fun.  The gun is cool, and you get blow stuff up.  Then it is over, set aside, and you don't worry about it.  The second mission I did was the chase through the Corpus ship.  I had not developed the skills for it, was not familiar enough with the controls, had very few mods, etc.  I failed miserably several times before giving up.  Except it is required to progress.  I went and did other stuff and came back to it, failed miserably four more times before getting lucky enough to Public Match with somebody who knew what they were doing.  Then I set the Archwing aside because my experience sucked and figured I would do my best to ignore that side of the game.  I avoided Archwing, going around it at Saturn.  Now I'm at Uranus and hating Archwing.  I know I should "git gud" as the community says, but I've lost all interest in Archwing due to the experiences I've had. 

Right now, with my level of frustration with Archwing, I would vote to rip it out, or at least set it to the side as something players can do, but isn't necessary for any particular progression.  The problem is my experience moved me from "This is interesting" to "This sucks avoid it" very quickly.  Dispassionately, I think it could be kept, but would need to be reworked expose new players to it in ways that make them look FOR Archwing missions, instead of avoiding them.

This is exactly why I say archwing needs to be more accessible. In it's current state the new player experience with it is invariably exactly this. You get to it, think hey this is kinda neat, hit the hard parts like a speeding car straight into a brick wall, only to discover that to progress any further you basically have to grind for months on end for a comparably tiny part of the game and it immediately kills any previous interest you had in it. Anyone who gets into this game right now that is not an extreme optimist will likely encounter this exact chain of events and emotions.

But as the game stands right now, archwing is too tied to progression in other areas of the game. Particularly railjack, which DE is hard pushing to become a more major part of the game than archwing is. If it's regular missions are removed there will be no consistent way to progress with them until you hit railjack, and then you have to worry about grinding both at once, and needing to learn and progress in both at the same time is a daunting thought. Removing them is a completely unviable option. So they need to be improved. Setup so that getting better gear is easier, and leveling it through the star chart is more organic. So you can deal with the harder challenges as you reach them, instead of hitting a wall you're forced to chip through with a spoon, or wave down a passerby with a jackhammer to break through the wall for you. Which is not how games should be played. I would even argue that there should be ways to obtain archwing mods in missions outside of anything archwing related. So your progression through regular missions can aid in archwing progression as well.

2 archwing missions per planet instead of one every other planet, so you have a chance to level your gear organically instead of grinding the same mission over and over, and the ability to actually get any useful gear for it within a reasonable amount of time and effort, would go a long way to prevent this immediate burnout scenario that the majority of players coming into it currently experience.

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I agree with you in that I actually enjoy the Archwing missions (I also like Railjack) and feel that the issue isn't removal, but a re-examination of them. Most of the Archwing missions content hasn't been looked at in years, and in that time, the game has changed enough that it would be worth taking those "lessons learned" and applying them. 

 

I also agree that the Archwing weapon parts should not just be limited to syndicates/clans. Make them rare drops or a reward for certain missions. A steady path of progress is what drives players towards content. 

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Every planet should have at least one AW mission, just like how each planet has a dark sector. But them at the end of a node path, make them entirely optional, and make them actually reward a decent amount of affinity. The worst part about AW is that you can only earn the mods in AW missions, and they can such a ridiculous amount of time to level.

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