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Your new "Ophelia AFK Farming"-Fix, which was actually deleting AI intelligence, has broken several endless mission patterns accross the entire game


AlphaBankai

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After 10 waves of today's Defense Sortie on Garus (Kuva Forttress) I can safely point to proof enough as this

This mission took us 25 minutes and 30 seconds, with a full team of 3 Mesas and my Speed built Nova with 10% power strength.

TWENTY FIVE MINUTES. This was a never seen long duration for this type of mission that I have ever experienced, and the first endless mission type I have participated in since Hotfix 29.2.1
As we all know, from video proof around, enemies are, WHILE PRIMED BY NOVA:

  1. Not running towards their target objective, such as the defense target, be it mobile or fixated on the ground.
  2. Not targetting players directly, instead running towards nowhere at random, shooting if ap layer comes in front of them, then continuing to run towards nowhere when they are gone.
  3. Many enemies can be seen walking slowly/at normal speed despite being PRIMED BY A 10% SPEED NOVA
  4. Many enemies can be seen standing completely still
  5. Many enemies can be seen splitting from the group to spread into fewer and far between apparitions throughout the map
  6. Enemies can see the player then RUN BACK TOWARDS THEIR SPAWNING POINT (In Garus specifically this sometimes included 50+ meter runs from their spawns to somewhat close to their targets, then back to their spawn. All done at regular speed with sudden speed bursts ever two other seconds despite being PRIMED BY A 10% SPEED NOVA
  7. Enemies are taking cover and sitting in wait despite not seeing any player characters, multiple and multiple walls behind any sort of action, something I've never seen happening in this game

Please run this embarrasing stuff back. You can fix an exploitable location without messing with the spaghetti code of your A.I. Just plug the goddamned hole if you must. And don't incentivise non-participant gameplay with shallow arbitrary rewards that incentivise an innactive playstyle.  Why can't we get Steel Essence from doing a kuva-survival style pattern on survival mission on steel path? It wouldn't be hard. Just import the map mechanics from the Kuva Forttress and chaneg the rewards from Kuva to Steel Essences on any map. Whatever, just run you A.I. back. This was infuriating, embarassing and outright disgusting for affecting the entire game because of a farming situation you guys created.

Thanks for the attention.

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Defense as a whole needs a rework. It is the third most hated gamemode in the game after infested salvage based on this graph on a player made survey a few months back. 

cmrpp5l.png
 

What you best suggesting is to rework Defense Mission to not be kill based. It should be timed based instead to diversify the meta.

Link to the now finished survey. 

 

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DE has ignored the AI for too long. This issue is actively hurting the game on a daily basis. 
Pulling up their pants and getting to work on a decent AI is the QoL change that would improve the game as a whole 
SIGNIFICATIVELY 

But no, why fix what is broken when its easier to make it even more broken and call it a day. 
Don't hold any hopes. DE always chooses the easier way.
Same with balance: Buff 2/3rds of the content or nerf 1/3rd of it? 
As Rebb said it "If all Warframes are good, what do we do?"
We have fun. That's what we do. 
But Steve and Scott instantly answered "That's Syndrome speech"
But they don't realize that only works when comparing players between each other. 
Balance in Warframe is comparing players to enemies, and that's why this mess of "balance" will 
always be futile as long enemies are easy

FIX - THE - AI

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This sounds very much like the instant and completely un-thought out kneejerk nerf to enemy spawning in exterminate missions several years ago when somebody realised that you could gather up all the enemies in one place at the extraction tile by running through the mission, and then get a lot of stealth XP if you a) used an explosive weapon, b) silenced this weapon using a mod or frame power and c) put all the enemies to sleep so that they didn't get alerted by their friends dying.

Previously, the game made sure to spawn all the enemies as you went along and then moved them up in case you missed one. This made sure that you weren't running around back and forth when you reached the exit trying to find that one enemy.

After this ridiculous nerf (because god forbid that someone find a way to reduce the soul-crushing grind in some very specific circumstances), you ended up backtracking again and again to find that one enemy that you missed which was in completely the opposite direction to the objective marker. And when you finally kill everything and reach the extraction point... there are still 10 or 20 more which simply haven't spawned yet. It's especially bad on sortie missions and even worse on the Uranus tileset. If ever I see a uranus exterminate in a sortie, that's an immediate skip for me because there's no way in hell that I'm going to spend 10 minutes running around after reaching the extraction tile to make the remaining 50 enemies spawn.

I expect that the collateral damage of this unjustified kneejerk nerf are going to be with us for the better part of a decade.

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21 hours ago, AlphaBankai said:

After 10 waves of today's Defense Sortie on Garus (Kuva Forttress) I can safely point to proof enough as this

This mission took us 25 minutes and 30 seconds, with a full team of 3 Mesas and my Speed built Nova with 10% power strength.

TWENTY FIVE MINUTES. This was a never seen long duration for this type of mission that I have ever experienced, and the first endless mission type I have participated in since Hotfix 29.2.1
As we all know, from video proof around, enemies are, WHILE PRIMED BY NOVA:

  1. Not running towards their target objective, such as the defense target, be it mobile or fixated on the ground.
  2. Not targetting players directly, instead running towards nowhere at random, shooting if ap layer comes in front of them, then continuing to run towards nowhere when they are gone.
  3. Many enemies can be seen walking slowly/at normal speed despite being PRIMED BY A 10% SPEED NOVA
  4. Many enemies can be seen standing completely still
  5. Many enemies can be seen splitting from the group to spread into fewer and far between apparitions throughout the map
  6. Enemies can see the player then RUN BACK TOWARDS THEIR SPAWNING POINT (In Garus specifically this sometimes included 50+ meter runs from their spawns to somewhat close to their targets, then back to their spawn. All done at regular speed with sudden speed bursts ever two other seconds despite being PRIMED BY A 10% SPEED NOVA
  7. Enemies are taking cover and sitting in wait despite not seeing any player characters, multiple and multiple walls behind any sort of action, something I've never seen happening in this game

Please run this embarrasing stuff back. You can fix an exploitable location without messing with the spaghetti code of your A.I. Just plug the goddamned hole if you must. And don't incentivise non-participant gameplay with shallow arbitrary rewards that incentivise an innactive playstyle.  Why can't we get Steel Essence from doing a kuva-survival style pattern on survival mission on steel path? It wouldn't be hard. Just import the map mechanics from the Kuva Forttress and chaneg the rewards from Kuva to Steel Essences on any map. Whatever, just run you A.I. back. This was infuriating, embarassing and outright disgusting for affecting the entire game because of a farming situation you guys created.

Thanks for the attention.

Unless you're Neo and can see the actual code in realtime, you can't point to anything as actual, definitive proof.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

Unless you're Neo and can see the actual code in realtime, you can't point to anything as actual, definitive proof.

This change isn't on consoles yet, so go shake your highhorse somewhere else, this does not concern you, YET, but it will soon and you'll thank the people divulging it now later. Definitive proof has already been made on multiple videos, the behaviour I described is not how the AI has worked. I don't need to read code to know that, since I play this game ever since I made an account in 2013. SOMETHING has been changed drastically as of the last patch and this is completely screwing with how the game works at the core for these styles of missions. It was reported on other threads too if you bothered to look, so I just don't see where you're coming from with your snarky comment.

Or nevermind that, screw it, keep your disingenuousness, answer me how a 10 wave of defense takes over 25 minutes with a 10% speed nova. If you can't manage that, this discussion isn't for you.

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I've had this issue before the ophelia change. It only seems to happen to me when I'm above a certain ping and am not host. I've had people complain about enemies doing this while I've been hosting and then experienced it while they were hosting. 

although i have seen a solo video with apparent problems but they're not quite consistent with what I have experienced. In fact, have had spawning issues since before Deimos released in just about every game mode I've played at some point. I think it's a little rash to definitively put large scale AI problems down to one vague change in regards to a hole when there have been substantial problems with the AI for some time now.

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5 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

This sounds very much like the instant and completely un-thought out kneejerk nerf to enemy spawning in exterminate missions several years ago when somebody realised that you could gather up all the enemies in one place at the extraction tile by running through the mission, and then get a lot of stealth XP if you a) used an explosive weapon, b) silenced this weapon using a mod or frame power and c) put all the enemies to sleep so that they didn't get alerted by their friends dying.

Previously, the game made sure to spawn all the enemies as you went along and then moved them up in case you missed one. This made sure that you weren't running around back and forth when you reached the exit trying to find that one enemy.

After this ridiculous nerf (because god forbid that someone find a way to reduce the soul-crushing grind in some very specific circumstances), you ended up backtracking again and again to find that one enemy that you missed which was in completely the opposite direction to the objective marker. And when you finally kill everything and reach the extraction point... there are still 10 or 20 more which simply haven't spawned yet. It's especially bad on sortie missions and even worse on the Uranus tileset. If ever I see a uranus exterminate in a sortie, that's an immediate skip for me because there's no way in hell that I'm going to spend 10 minutes running around after reaching the extraction tile to make the remaining 50 enemies spawn.

I expect that the collateral damage of this unjustified kneejerk nerf are going to be with us for the better part of a decade.

Wait, so that was the result of a "fix"? I always find it weird that Exterminate is the only mode that doesn't relocate enemies closer to you if you leave them too far, its annoying af when you have to backtrack 1000m+ to kill a single enemy.

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Not to mention the Lua Exterminate mission, where you cleared a room, just to have a whole bunch of enemies spawn out of the ground next to you and you need to do it again. In the bigger hallways you sometimes have to run around three times through the entire room, before you can proceed... Just to realize, that the one Ratel you missed is now 400m away and you need to kill it before the marker will point to the direction of the next enemies or the exit... Absolutely infuriating. This whole mess started years ago, when DE decided to have more enemies in Exterminations than on the kill counter in order to prevent players in fissure exterminations to lack reactants if they joined the run lately. The problem here is, that some tilesets are too small to guarantee the proper amount of spawns, especially, if the players traverse them quickly. Ever since then, Exterminations have been a mess. On top of that, although consoles didn't get the patch yet, I've seen an increased number of inactive enemies since a few days. I don't talk about Grineer soldiers standing in a corner staring at a wall (which already is a meme in my clan - Wallwatching ;-), but Bombards and Corpus Techs just standing there doing nothing, although I just slaughtered their comrades just in front of them. On the new Corpus ships (which had spawn and pathing issues from the getgo and still have), I came across several Crewman who stood still in the middle of hallways in a weird position, as if they just started ducking and then got frozen... Something is definitely not O.K. here, just saying.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Kuhl MC said:

Not to mention the Lua Exterminate mission, where you cleared a room, just to have a whole bunch of enemies spawn out of the ground next to you and you need to do it again. In the bigger hallways you sometimes have to run around three times through the entire room, before you can proceed... Just to realize, that the one Ratel you missed is now 400m away and you need to kill it before the marker will point to the direction of the next enemies or the exit... Absolutely infuriating. This whole mess started years ago, when DE decided to have more enemies in Exterminations than on the kill counter in order to prevent players in fissure exterminations to lack reactants if they joined the run lately. The problem here is, that some tilesets are too small to guarantee the proper amount of spawns, especially, if the players traverse them quickly. Ever since then, Exterminations have been a mess. On top of that, although consoles didn't get the patch yet, I've seen an increased number of inactive enemies since a few days. I don't talk about Grineer soldiers standing in a corner staring at a wall (which already is a meme in my clan - Wallwatching ;-), but Bombards and Corpus Techs just standing there doing nothing, although I just slaughtered their comrades just in front of them. On the new Corpus ships (which had spawn and pathing issues from the getgo and still have), I came across several Crewman who stood still in the middle of hallways in a weird position, as if they just started ducking and then got frozen... Something is definitely not O.K. here, just saying.

It seems to always spawn enemies in the room you're in just as you've finished killing the enemies around you preventing the next room's enemy waypoint from showing. I think a simple fix for making this smoother would be to show the waypoint for enemies in the next room regardless of if you have killed all that's in the room you're in. When I run crossfire ext on lua I tend to rush to find the next room rather than killing the last few enemies. Simply knowing where they are would help that. 

 

 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb NecroPed:

It seems to always spawn enemies in the room you're in just as you've finished killing the enemies around you preventing the next room's enemy waypoint from showing. I think a simple fix for making this smoother would be to show the waypoint for enemies in the next room regardless of if you have killed all that's in the room you're in. When I run crossfire ext on lua I tend to rush to find the next room rather than killing the last few enemies. Simply knowing where they are would help that. 

 

 

True.

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On 2020-10-13 at 8:01 AM, Roble_Viejo said:

DE has ignored the AI for too long. This issue is actively hurting the game on a daily basis. 
Pulling up their pants and getting to work on a decent AI is the QoL change that would improve the game as a whole 
SIGNIFICATIVELY 

But no, why fix what is broken when its easier to make it even more broken and call it a day. 
Don't hold any hopes. DE always chooses the easier way.
Same with balance: Buff 2/3rds of the content or nerf 1/3rd of it? 
As Rebb said it "If all Warframes are good, what do we do?"
We have fun. That's what we do. 
But Steve and Scott instantly answered "That's Syndrome speech"
But they don't realize that only works when comparing players between each other. 
Balance in Warframe is comparing players to enemies, and that's why this mess of "balance" will 
always be futile as long enemies are easy

FIX - THE - AI

You forgot to mention too that DE goes out of their way to punish skill and knowledge like it's their main job second only to protecting and babying the weakest links.

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On 2020-10-13 at 12:52 AM, AlphaBankai said:

After 10 waves of today's Defense Sortie

I think it's about time for DE to actually rework DEFENSE missions. They are the very worst when it comes to time per rotation. Just the fact alone they are connected to number of mobs killed AND then have idiotic intervals every wave should be proof enough of them being the definition of "obsolete content".

Second one being survival. Not as terrible but locking players behind forced 5 minutes per rotation is... boring.

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